Howard Dean was first and remains first in our hearts.

Pelosi now says impeachment will affect the House's,"productivity."

By that she means they'll have less time for caving in to Bush. 

With all of the Gore votes coming from write-ins, the IRV anaylsis doesn't work.  I doubt if Gore got too many write-ins as a second or third choice.  Thus, if you are truly interested in an accurate portrayal of the DFA voters, you'll do the poll again...this time you should include Gore as a candidate.  The IRV will better reflect where people stand if you do it that way.  Just a suggestion...

Let's see ..hmmm...tough choice.... IMPEACH Cheney or -- get our troops home as fast as possible!   No brainer.

WHY Musharriff did what he did:  

There's a 'small war' going on in his country, with the Pakistani Taliban on the Pakistan/Afghanistan border...(somebody tell George , oh and our media)  

The conflict in Swat (Pakistan) is especially troubling to the government because it marks the first time the government's authority has been challenged in a North-West Frontier Province…militants control three of the valley's seven districts … the Pakistani Taliban" new offensive  —killing 20 soldiers and wounding 30…..The military responded with a major operation against the militants,…Fighting since then has killed as many as 100 militants and 30 to 50 security forces, http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20071105/FOREIGN/111050059/1003 

UPI) -- South Korea's Defense Ministry on Monday announced its 210 soldiers serving in Afghanistan would be recalled before presidential elections next month.

John,

 The IRV works fine. Almost 5000 people wrote in Gore for 2nd choice  and 3000 for 3rd that did not write him in as number 1. 

I want to go on record as having no questions or complaints about the pulse poll.

I just received an e mail from Senator Reid that he will oppose Mukasey. Not sure if this is new news or old news.

 A clear and ubnderstnadable exposition of the vote counting process

Question: why wasn;t this known to us while voting? Instead, we vioted in the dark, not knowing what use was to be made of 2nd and 3rd place votes.  Wasn't clear whether 'bullet" voting would make a difference or what.  I disocvered that if yoiu dragged the same icon into all three spots, you could not send in your vote, but if you wrote in your candidate's name for choices 2 and 3, you could submit and vote. 

Should not have had to learn this by trial and error, and should have known in advance what chices 2 ans 3 implied in the vote count.   

And It/s still not clear whether write-ins for a candidatate who did have an icon ever registered anywhere at all.   

I want to go on record as having no questions or complaints about the pulse poll.  

************************************************

And I want to go on record as having never expected to fully agree with Sitka on two separate matters in the span of a few days . . . . . . but I do - lol.

And, etc. etc.

Tom,

We asked simply to rank the candidates in the order you wanted. How does how we count the votes change your determination on who you are voting for?

Also writing in the same person into 2nd and 3rd place does no good. Since when they are still in the race your first place vote is counting so your 2nd and 3rd are not counted. Then when you remove your candidate you are removing all 3 votes.

"And It/s still not clear whether write-ins for a candidatate who did have an icon ever registered anywhere at all. "

 Not sure I follow that one. The only people that had images of them where declared candidates.  

 just received an e mail from Senator Reid that he will oppose Mukasey. Not sure if this is new news or old news

Alas it's no news. Reid has counted noses, and knows there's enough Democratic cowards/traitors to confirm.

This way, he won't have to take the heat for not confirming, and can say he tried.....................

He should refuse to bring it up for a vote.

One issue that I've wondered about is how this poll actually represents the opinions of DFA *members* - however you define members.

Obviously DFA benefits from lots of new people on their email list, but I don't feel that the winners of this poll are really indicative of the actual DFA community.

When this poll was first underway, before it made the rounds outside of the existing DFA mailing list and blogosphere, there was a clear Edwards lead. A few days later, the Gore and Kucinich people discovered the poll and heavily altered the results. I'm surprised Ron Paul's people didn't join in as well!

It's really clear that Edwards would have been the obvious DFA endorsement. Oh well....

Hey Dan,

 We're going to release the results very soon- and you'll get a glimpse of the results in a lot  fdiffernt ways. I think you'll be surprised.

-Ilya 

Why would you have a write-in option along with all the declared candidates but then later decide that write-ins won't count unless the chosen one actually declared?

In normal votes with integrity, write-in votes count as long as they are made by legitimate voters. All of Gore's votes should count.

Keep in mind this is someone who is supporting edwards and believes gore ought to declare or say he's not running. but a vote is a vote. and you can't change the rules or make them up as you go along. For integrity, the rules that exist at the beginning of the vote hold.

This vote is ridiculous and DFA blew it.

David A. Stevenson
Tue, 11/06/07
5:07 pm

Why not? could it be the candidate that you want to win actually won? The legitimacy of a vote shouldn't be related to the outcome but to principles of integrity. And this vote lacks integrity.

See my comments on the last thread as to why. DFA has a blackbox problem. No paper trail. I have no confidence in this vote. You can't make up the rules as you go along.

Tim:

If I remember correctly, the rule was that if no candidate had a national majority, then DFA would send "recruitment emails" (?) on a state-by-state basis for each state's winning candidate. How will that work for the states that went to Al Gore? It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to recruit more support for a candidate who isn't running.

What is so ironic is that DFA, which had been a leading org on electoral reform and against blackbox voting, set up a vote that is fraught with voting integrity problems. What the heck are you guys paid to do?

DFA screwed up with this and failed to deal with the problems we've been raising all along. I'm a DFA member from the beginning and I'm very disappointed. This is going to be the laughing stock of the Internet. I wouldn't be surprised if the MSM picks it up.

Huron John
Tue, 11/06/07
5:13 pm

Bingo. More manipulation by  the "leader".

A good article at Kos on todays circus in the House of Reps. It is saying that Dennis can keep bringing up this Res., or anyone else. Maybe some of the co-sponsors might give it a go.

This was a lot fun. Thanks Tim and all.

Hey Indy Steve,

Just a quick response to the following: 

In normal votes with integrity, write-in votes count as long as they are made by legitimate voters. All of Gore's votes should count.

I've been a poll watcher in Illinois so I can only speak from that experience. The process in Illinois was that for a write in candidate's votes to  be counted, that candidate must have filed a letter of intent to be a "write in" candidate. The ballot access threshold was much lower since s/he wasn't on the ballot, but it wasn't non existent. 

In our model, we were willing to consider any other write in candidate who declared an intent to run for the nomination before our polls closed. Our ED, Arshad, even sent a national email about the tremendous support for Gore looking for an aswer as to whether he was seeking the nomination. And, we sent out an email explaining that only declared candidates could be endorsed.

I appreciate your feedback. But, ultimately, despite the wishes of many members in the DFA community, as well as the Draft Gore efforts, the Vice President remains undeclared for the Presidency - so while you'll see his vote totals, they can't count towards a potential endorsement.

-Ilya

16.

Adam Atlas

Why not? This is a grassroots activism baby....we're not raising or spending millions of dollars. The Draft Gore effort can use help too. We have many states putting Al Gore on their ballots and that takes much shoe leather!


Time for
a COOL
change,
Gore
2008


Be well all!

 Those Gore votes end up going to: Edwards: 30%, Obama:18% and Kucinich: 15%

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

leaving a whole lot of votes still unaccounted for (but I'll wait), and a clear large grassroots support for Al Gore who might well "win" CA on Feb 5th

but if this was just a vote by anyone who would give an e-mail address why was it called a vote for a "DFA" endorsement

18.

Indy Steve
Tue, 11/06/07
6:06 pm

What has happen to your Hoosier Hospitality?

And I want to go on record as having never expected to fully agree with Sitka on two separate matters in the span of a few days . . . . . . but I do - lol.

The only thing I remember disagreeing with you about was just one cheerleading post for the Democratic Party. Those kind of posts will draw a response from me every time.

lol Susan

Kucinich 51% and Edwards 49%

Reid has counted noses, and knows there's enough Democratic cowards/traitors to confirm.

This time he gets to play the good cop. 

deaniac isn't going to like this but once again I will compare this to an Iowa caucus and do the math for you in terms of allocation of delegates (which is the number reported to the press, not the raw numbers at sign in)

major difference, Gore can accumulate delegates

16.

Adam Atlas

Adam,

Linda #22 is correct.

California Draft Gore

You can help by making your contribution

HERE: http://www.actblue.com/page/california4g...

or you can sign up as a signature gathering volunteer

HERE: http://www.california4gore.org/

the numbers on the new thread are interesting

The Good:  Clinton comes up Irrelevant.

The Absurd:  Dennis the menace. 

Who Actually Believes the guy WITH NO INTERNATIONAL experience, relationships or boots-on-the-ground Negotiating skill and NO LEADERSHIP will be the Democratic nominee?  Who imagines:  Republicans would cross over to vote for HIM?  lol

THIS Poll:  nothing more than cute.  In the Real World:  people tabling for Other candidates have told us they have decided to join us.  Minorities:  Already ARE supporters --but pollsters have FAILED to call/Ask/Find out.  Who are they switching to/quiet supporters of:  Bill Richardson.   Pollsters --and, apparently, DFA voters:  gonna get a surprise --his supporters aren't available when they call --we're on-line blogging, networking --or away tabling.  Mainstream media:  owned by Republicans --keep pushing /get their reporters to talk about non-stop --desperately hoping Clinton will be the nominee --the one they Can beat.  They way Don't want Gov. Richardson --for plenty of good reasons. 

Millions --don't hear slick hedging, dumb cracks, UFO info.  Center-mainstream middle Can/ have Looked at his record.  Black and Latino voters:  couldn't care less what Republicans and DFA-voters want.

26. s/b happened

Jon Tester is now talking about the farm bill. I like Senator Tester. I like say that too.

I just hope Gore tells us *one way or the other* soon, whether or not he's running.

Indy Steve

Personally, I'm concerned about all those freeper types who are now going to show up at our local activities. And my phone ringing at all hours of the night.

33. s/b saying

http://www.blogforamerica.com/view/22863...

new...

all those freeper types...

35.  WHAT is a "freeper" ?  What does "freeped" mean?

What we are seeing here with our votes is exactly a reflection of the situation with the national primaries.  Is one candidate going to 'win' all of the primaries with 25-30% of the vote or even 20% and be the Democratic nominee for president?  They may win the nomination but how many votes will they get in the Presidential election.   50% of the people have already said they will not vote for the Democrats percieved front runner at this time.  I don't have any suggestions as to how to resolve this but I am concerned about the general election.

It strikes me that the one question we really need answered is...

Who were the candidates who received a bunch of fake votes?

And were you able to trace where they came from (i.e., from the campaigns of those people, right-wing saboteurs, or another source)? 

Now that would be interesting to know... and it would influence my decision a lot.

Come on, DFA-- fess up. Do we know anything about this? 

However, Gore is not a candidate so that would be pretty pointless.

The media whores all of the other candidates around, so why not let Dennis be whored around for a little bit?

 I like so many Gore supporters used the other category to write in his name all three times with the one vote to overstate my preference and to protest his name not being on the ballot in the first place..   Had  Mr. Gore's name had been on the ballot, then naturally he would be my first choice and I would have submitted my second and third choices which then would give proper IRV results.  

What a bunch of whiners here! If their candidates had won in this poll we wouldn't even be hearing from them!

I say, whore Dennis around! I wish the other candidates had the guts to put forth proposals like his! This country sorely needs true, universal health care!

I'm on disability, and I just got a letter today telling me that the state of Minnesota will no longer be paying my Medicare medical insurance premiums retroactive to September 1st. This means that they're going to deduct $280.50 from my December monthly disabilty check ($187 for Sept and Oct. and $93.50 for November), leaving me with only $433 for December (I usuallly get a check for $714 a month). Merry Christmas and Happy New Year - NOT!  I'm not sure how this family of 3 is going to make it, and I know I'm not alone. God help us all!

"(Interestingly enough, you have to remove all but Kucinich and Edwards to get one candidate above 50%. Kucinich wins 51% to 49%)"

 This statement  is untrue -- I tried removing all but the the top 4 according to National Polling -- leaving Edwards, Obama & Clinton --  and  Edwards had 50.25%:

I think this is the most significant --- because in terms of chances at the nomination, it is going to come down to these 3.  

While I realize the appeal of Dennis Kucinich to progressives -- he is  genuine in his politics and has been consistent throughout the years,  and we have to all respect that  -- we also have t be realistic and recognize that he doesn't have a chance at winning the nomination, much less the general election.

John Edwards polls better than either Obama and Clinton in nationwide polling for election year matchups against any of the possible Republican candidates -- so the most effective campaign strategy that DFA could follow would be to endorse the clear favorite among the nominees with a realistic chance.  

These numbers show that to be a winning strategy.

Richardson gave up the ghost tonight on "Hardball" when he said that Kucinich's move to impeach Cheney is a waste of time and that the Congress should concentrate on "Real Things" and that he would vote No on it out of protest!

He should pull out of the race now as he's just become irrelevant.

Abigail:

You are right to the point.  I respect both Kucinich and Gore, but  it's not about who is most progressive. It's about nominating the person with the best chance of getting elected (clearly NOT Clinton) who also has some progressive values and ideas. 

John Edwards isn't perfect, but he fits that bill better than any of the others.  He's speaking to a lot of class and economic issues that working and middle class people can relate to.  He's not getting a lot of corporate money, so he has more freedom of action than some of the other candidates.  And he has the great adv antage of being an angry  white guy from the south.   

I could see the much-discussed NASCAR dads voting for this guy.  Also think Edwards/Obama would be a great ticket.     

Both Gore and Kucinich are doing great work where they are.  And neither has much hope of being nominated or elected.  I think we need to be practical.  

Anyone:  what is "freeped"?    What does it mean?

Pelosi has been a sad disappointment. On being sworn as speaker she said (just before heading over to the white house to lunch with bush) "impeachment is not on the table." That was a long time ago. This rogue adminstration has become much more open and flagrant in its disregard for the rule of law in the interval. What will it take for Pelosi et. al. to wake up?

Thank you for your insight here! We are supporting Kkucinich here in Nevada and the movement is growing along with the polls.  Don't forget the ABC online poll Aug. 20 where Dennis won and then was disappeared.  We just need to get the word out and connect with all these Kucinich supporters somehow.  Any ideas how to do this? Take a look at all the states Dennis won..... Strength through Peace, Diana

I'm upset! I voted assuming this was instant runoff voting (IRV).  I would have voted differently if I realized this was not IRV.  Runoff voting is much more democratic and I hope future polls will be IRV or will have a runoff poll to decide the winner.

Dianne Smith, I am from Las Vegas and I am looking forward to the democratic debates that will soon be presented here!

I don't expect Dennis to be treated like the media front runners, but I am sure that he will shine and overcome the efforts to marginalize him!

I believe that it will be important for all of the Nevada  supporters for Dennis to be at the debates and to express themselves loudly and enthusiasticaly  on his behalf!

It would be interesting if once Dennis supporters  are inside the area where the debates are being held that they would as a organized group put on "Kucinich for president shirts," so as to let the world know that Nevada is overwhelmingly for Dennis Kucinich  for president! 

If the organizers of this debate attempt to ignore Kucinich the audience at the debate should let it be known that they resent his exclusion, and  attempts to marginalize him!

J. Eric Persun:   Richardson said...Kucinich's move...is a waste of time....  [So] He [Richardson]should pull out of the race now ....

Now There's a Plan!    LOL --A candidate's Entire career --qualifications --experience --knowledge --leadership:  Reduced to Whether or No candidate "X" is PERFECT --in every utterance --topic --position!  Because:  YOUR opinion is ALL that matters!

That's The Ticket!  If candidate "X" says A thing You don't AGREE with:  said candidate should quit running --Get Out of the race!  WE Must Have Perfection [Bang desk loudly] --too too likely, of course, Your opinion of "Perfection" WILL coincide --with All Others in the Party --left --right --center Idea of PERFECTION --and Libertarians, Greens, also Peace & Freedom voters --plus Republicans, doncha know, Moderates --right-wingers, extreme right-wing nutjobs --and All the folks who have/still want to shove one religion into Government.  Piece-O-cake --finding THAT candidate, cuz we just get cranky if The One ISN'T Perfect --like Perfect Parents --like, well just Like YOU. 

Does your Off-With-His-Head form of, uh, decision-making mean:  ol Dennis now Hasta go stand in the closet --till election is over, for saying...something... about UFOs?  LOL --Or, gosh:  was That one OKAY with You?  'Scuse me:  WHEN did we Choose YOU to decide???

Sheesh...WHEN do the Grown Ups take over?

Poppy,

An adult is a person that can make decisions and does not sit on the fence and talk out of both sides of their mouth!...

The centrists of the world are opportunists and wishy washy, they will try to figure out what way the wind is blowing before they jump off the fence and allign themselves with a percieved winner!

Centrists do not have any core beliefs that they subscribe to! 

A centrist is a compromiser and a betrayer and is only for personal gain at the expense of partisans  that are for something and against the opposite of what they are for!

Partisans make decisions, they take a stand and will fight for princiipals that they believe in! It is they that are ADULTS! ..It is the self centered centrists that are child like that believe that the world revolves around them

Centrists do not believe in anything! ...Except their personal self centered gain!

Centrists  become corrupt!

The reason I am for Dennis Kusinich is that he Knows what he is for and what he is against! 

Richard,Thank you for speaking up. I agree. I belong  to a small group of politically active people who spoke of backing the person with the best chance of winning. I disagree. How are we ever going to have decent government if we always compromise and can't stand by our person to the end. And let's not be swayed by who laughs or who believes in  UFOs. Does anyone have proof they don't exist?There are people out there who vote for the cute person, the person with the nice family, the person who is a man, the person who is a woman, and it goes on and on.Let's look at policy. And so what if Kucinich doesn't have foreign experience?  I think I could do a better job than Bush. I'd find qualified people to help in my weak area. I feel Kucinich has the average Joe's concerns on the table and he is my man.

Richard,Thank you for speaking up. I agree. I belong  to a small group of politically active people who spoke of backing the person with the best chance of winning. I disagree. How are we ever going to have decent government if we always compromise and can't stand by our person to the end. And let's not be swayed by who laughs or who believes in  UFOs. Does anyone have proof they don't exist?There are people out there who vote for the cute person, the person with the nice family, the person who is a man, the person who is a woman, and it goes on and on.Let's look at policy. And so what if Kucinich doesn't have foreign experience?  I think I could do a better job than Bush. I'd find qualified people to help in my weak area. I feel Kucinich has the average Joe's concerns on the table and he is my man.

You go Ara!!!!

Poppy, Kinda hard to follow your rant but my point was not about supporting Impeachment because Kucinich brought it to the floor or about perfection. It's about the fact that the Dems as a whole are acting GUTLESS and are letting this administration get away with Impeachable offenses. They cave and capitulate at every turn when they should be standing up for our Constitution!

 We are now the Country that Tortures, Starts illegal wars , Spies on it's own citizens, Outs covert operatives for political gain, Makes up Fake News and has it Broadcast on the National News as Real, Uses fear as a political tool... and on and on...

My Point is it's not about being perfect. It's about doing the right thing. And Holding this administration accountable for it's misdeeds is the right thing, not a waste of time as Richardson suggests and as you seem to agree with.

Upholding and protecting the Constitution is their sworn duty. Standing by and watching this administration Shred it is Anti-American!

Any one that doesn't get that is unfit for any position in our government, except maybe dogcatcher.

If we don't impeach this administration we might as well take that fabled document out of it's hermetically sealed case, esemble the masses for a national funeral and set it ablaze on national TV. Hey at least that way we'd get another national holiday and possibly another three day weekend on the calendar.  

Ara:  "...Imagine for once having a President with conscience…"

I AM Voting FOR such a person --for the first time in Years. --A person who was born on the west coast, raised on the east coast, lives in the center of the country --by parents who taught him about giving back, business and immigrant worlds.  HE is not OF the Washington lobbyist strangle-hold, unlike Clinton, but Knows How to get things done.   Sophisticated, intelligent AND knows how/has  negotiated with world leaders --to get American prisoners/hostages released --to reduce nuclear weapons --and politicians:  balanced every one of his state's budgets.  HE was the one:  who got $400,000 in life insurance for active duty military --that 35 other states followed.  Speaks three languages --fluently.

I am FOR:  the one American Indians --who Have dealt with him for over two decades, are backing.  I WANT a breath of fresh air --a true leader --as much as every diz-gusted Republican and repulsed livid Democrat.  IF we Don't get one --this time:  the US is on the edge --from which it will Not return, from the shadow government, behind all that we CAN see. 

I am FOR him --for well-thought out, examined, researched reasons.  I believe:  HE Will be the Party's nominee.  --Disgusted Republicans WILL vote for him, when they 'suddenly' discover he is fiscally responsible, refreshing, compassionate, environmentalist, believes in tax CUTS yet gets things done.  He will be a Fine president.  Among others:  it will be refreshing to have a person with a Heck of a good sense of humor --and NO ties to germans, nazies, Yale OR lobbyists. 

He is climbing --national, Iowa and New Hampshire polls --for Good Reason.  By the end of the second quarter:  he had raised fourth-highest amount of money.  People who Aren't getting counted in polls:  intend to vote for him.  So do I.  Do I know what I'm talking about?  I went to work on Dean's campaign before he announced; realized he was not going to get the nomination --quit three months before media pigs ripped him apart for Stupid 'yell' "reason"; my closest friend:  one of the "they" behind the scene, part of the group that decides Party things (--he once called the White House to let them know he was going on vacation; they asked 'where' --next morning:  package arrived, with letters to the Ambassador of every country he was about to visit plus the Pope).  HE:  is FOR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Richardson

Yes, Kucinich is a great guy.  And from the looks of this blog, has some very enthusiastic supporters.

But can we get real for a minute?  Can you see Dennis carrying Alabama?  How about Texas?  Or anywhere else in the South?

How about Nebraska, or Kansas? Please! Anywhere in the mountain west, with the (very long shot) exception of Colorado? Forget it.

In the midwest, he'd be very lucky to take Wisconsin and Minnesota.  Can you seriously see Missouri and Indiana voting for Kucinich?

Fact is, the very thing I like about Kucinich (his full blown liberalism) makes him unelectable as President.  He is far to the left of the majority of the country, and the district he comes from (based in a more-liberal-than average city) tells you where his support is concentrated. There just aren't enough liberal areas like that to put him in the White House.

Dennis would have trouble getting elected even here in deep blue Maryland.  With the exception of some progressives in Baltimore and the DC suburbs, the Dems here are pretty conservative. (Think Steny Hoyer).   I know my neighbors.  They would not vote for this guy.

It's not a question of what will compromise our beliefs.  Another 4 years of Rethugs in the White House will compromise THE COUNTRY far more gravely than a Democrat who is less liberal than we would like.   

Dan Wood does bring up a good point, which I don't think anyone else addressed.  While I am a Kucinich supporter, I also like Edwards a lot and think he could possibly turn out to be an even better choice in the end.  I also think Gore is great, but he's not running.  (To the Gore-gate crowd:  what if you invest all your time, money and energy into supporting him, even voting for him, and he declines to accept???)

But all that aside, it truly is not a reflection of the opinions of DFA members, when any candidate has their supporters join the organization specifically to vote in their poll.  I'm not condemning Dennis for his approach, however, I do think DFA has a responsibility to indicate what percentage of votes came from "new" DFA members -- i.e. people who signed up to be DFA members the same day they voted in the poll.  Surely, these are not DFA members out of conviction to DFA ideals and principles.  They are opportunisitically penetrating DFA to use it as a platform for their candidate.

I think DFA could have disallowed voting by anyone not already a member before the poll was issued.  Or failing that, they could at least send out a notification to all poll voters showing what the complete poll results were, and include a breakout of how the newbie "DFA members" voted, and how that may have swayed the results.

I also resent Richard Walters rant against what he calls "centrists".  First of all, I think he's misusing that word.  And if he actually believes that, then I think he also misunderstands Dennis.  Mr. Kucinich, if anyone bothers to listen to what he's actually saying, is not a radical.  His views are actually centrist:  Yin/yang.  Balance.  Harmony.  Business and social responsibility CAN co-exist, people.  You don't get those things by being an extremist radical.  You get them by approaching everything with fairness in mind.  Making sure basic human needs are met, and that people have hope to prosper.  (Read his proposed Department of Peace legislation:  www.thepeacealliance.org).

Maybe what RW means is that people should stop being wishy-washy and stick with their convictions.  In which case, I agree with him.  (I agreed with everything else he said prior to that post.)  But I also believe that some people get way too stuck on one person/candidate, as if that one individual was the end-all, be-all and the sole hope of society.  No matter who gets in, we have to keep communicating our values and priorities to them.  We have to keep working with them, and putting pressure on them, and/or praising them when they make the right choices.  Our responsibility does not end when someone gets elected (even if it's the person we like).  That is where our responsibility begins again anew. 

Just saw Ilya's article about the breakouts of DFA organizers voting and DFA-link members voting versus the general totals.  That totally answers my above concerns.  Thanks!

First, I applaud you for conducting the poll with the ability to rank our choices.  The single vote  system really only works well when you have only two choices.  This is clearly the way to go when there are multiple candidates.  Third party candidates always demonstrate this since they are always perceived as stealing votes from one of the other parties. 

Secondly,  Now that you have ranked votes, you have about a dozen techniques  to choose from to "crunch" the numbers.  This stuff is generally only of interest to serious math geeks, but it is a fascinating topic if and when you can get your head around it. 

Election Methods: Condercet, Copeland, Borda, Schulze, Kemeny-Young, Nanson's, ranked-pairs, Coomb, Bucklin, Instant-runoff, etc., ...

 What method did DFA use for this poll?

 Colleen,Thank you for your clear, non-aggressive, well reasoned contribution to this discussion. I agree with every point you make.

I agree with Monica Smith's comment; Howard Dean would completely outclass this field as he did the others in the 2004 field. As important as his work at the DNC has been--and he is the G.O.A.T. (Greatest of All Time) DNC Chair--=it is too bad he must honor his pledge NOT to seek the Presidency in 2008.

Howard Dean remains not only our Chairman, but our Champion!

Richard:  Right on!  It is the kind of thinking that Abigail engages in that keeps this country bound to a two-party system that consistently fails to perform  meaningfully.  When enough people realize that supporting the right person, whomever you believe that to be, equals proper management of our government, then we can endorse and elect the right person for the job, not just the one who comes closest according to the press.  Are you going to allow the press to decide for you aho will be president--again?  I love the DFA to death, but I will continue to support my chosen candidate no matter what DFA decides.  Al Gore has stated clearly that he is NOT interested in running for president this election.  Maybe next one?  Oh, yeah, I think freeping is associated with free-basing.  Thanks for listening. 

38 and 50. Poppy

 A freeper is a member of freerepublic.com, a belligerently conservative online group, or perhaps someone who acts like one.

Poppy, et al 

There are many "truthYisms" in your post, but the "I know more about this than you" attitude is ignorant and doesn't serve the elucidation of the issues at stake.  One thing for sure is, if we are to be "progressive", we want to open the election process up to anyone that makes any sense. Have you thought through a health care plan for America, or submiited a theory of peace making as an alternative to war making as a tool of social policy, had a policy development statement articulated about NAFTA or WTO, the role of labor as an economic/political force?  Whether from Dennis or any one else, we need to look at ideas from a fresh mindset, not stale pre-formed analysis, whether from progressives or conservatives.  JFK, that is President John F. Kennedy, President Carter, and I am sure several other Presidents had little or no prior foreign policy experience before taking office.  That is not a pre-requisite to thoughtfulness and wisdom, leadership and courage.  It actually might just get in the way, as we can see few, if any world politicians to date have worked their magic in the foreign policy business. 

 AND yes let's get real.  People have NOT been voting in droves.  What would happen if the American public, the poor, minorities and disenchanted non-voters(who make up the majority) of the South or elsewhere felt like their vote could actually make it worth casting; that the corruption in government could be stalled and maybe cleaned up with a new group in power.  Not likely, the way the deck is stacked with a "money wins all" primary and electioneering process. 

 Let's really get real.  Unless we can weed out the corporate influence from the process and take back the media in some fashion or guilt trip them into submission(ha!), it is doubtful THIS venue will do much more then be self-congratulatory, unless it seeks to put another lesser of two evils back into power.   We have to make room for vision or we will continue to debate little that is substantial then another Democratic winner that fails to deliver.  GET real and debate the real issues of wealth consolidation,  taxation, corruption of the election process, the constitution, The bill of rights, the Supreme Court, something about a vision about how we want to live together on this planet so there is something habitable and worth passing on to future generations.  There is plenty to REALly talk about.  Then we can decide who can carry that banner.

Howard Dean was innovative, intelligent, openminded. He must get into the White House one day.

Edwards maybe the closest to him. 

 This country has got many good - hardworking - decent people.

 All we need is to strip the power of the caricature cartoonish dangerous and not dangerous politicians.

Ordinary goodhearted but misled citizens must get input and rehabilitation to be valued members of the enlightened, fair and decent America.

If Al Gore does not run, then I guess he doesn't run. What are you going to do at that point?

But we haven't gotten to that point yet. He has NOT endorsed another candidate yet, like he did early on during the last election cycle and he has not said "no" yet. He knows how to say "no". He did early on last time.

 Therefore I, and many others like me, will not stop just because we're afraid we might not suceed. At least, if we don't make it, we can say that we tried and we stood up for the candidate that we believe in, instead of standing by a candidate that we were lukewarm about, but was more favored by the mainstream media.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to settle for second best and the best is Al Gore.

After all, it's Political Science 101 and it's the thing that you learn the first day in class (or, at least, in all my college classes) the best leaders are the ones that are reluctent to lead. They are the ones who lead only because they feel that they must serve their country, not because they are seeking power.

Al Gore fits that discription *perfectly*