First again...........I going to bed.

Deans are first always.

This from a diary over at Daily Kos. Why are so many of Clinton's supporters complete asses? What an endorsement.

Bob Kerrey endorsed Hillary Clinton today. But that's not why he's an ass.

gobacktotexas's diary :: ::
It was the way he endorsed Hillary that blows:

"Even before John Edwards was chasing ambulances in North
Carolina and Barack was voting ‘present’ in the Illinois state senate," Senator Clinton was involved in major policy initiatives, he said.

 Add your view

Alzheimer's affects 700,000 Britons

It appears to tackle one of the main features of the disease - inflammation in the brain.

The drug, called Enbrel, is injected into the spine where it blocks a chemical responsible for damaging the brain and other organs.

A pilot study carried out by U.S. researchers found one patient had his symptoms reversed "in minutes".

Other patients have shown some improvements in symptoms such as forgetfulness and confusion after weekly injections over six months.

The study of 15 patients with moderate to severe Alzheimer's has just been published in the Journal of Neuroinflammation by online publishers Biomed Central.

The experiment showed that Enbrel can deactivate TNF (tumour necrosis factor) - a chemical in the fluid surrounding the brain that is found in Alzheimer's sufferers.

When used by arthritis sufferers, the drug is self-administered by injection and researchers had to develop a way of injecting it into the spine to affect the brain cells.

Sue Griffin, a researcher at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, said: 'It is unprecedented to see cognitive and behavioural improvement in a patient with established dementia within minutes of therapeutic intervention.

'This gives all of us in Alzheimer research a tremendous new clue

Oh yes, Kerrey, one of the complicit *let's cover up what really happened on 9/11* guys. 

11:32EST

no blogging for me in the morning as I have to go to the Madison airport with my son and be up at four to get the chores done so good nite all 10:34 CST 

UK Daily Mail | January 10, 2008

U.S. warplanes dropped 40,000 pounds of bombs on more than 40 targets on Baghdad's southern outskirts this morning in a major strike on al Qaeda safe havens, the military said in a statement.

The U.S. Air Force dispatched two B-1 bombers and four F-16 fighter jets, aiming at three large target areas in Arab Jabour, an area of date palm groves that has become a haven for al Qaeda fighters driven out of other areas.

The attack was described as part of Operation Phantom Phoenix, a countrywide offensive against al Qaeda guerrillas that U.S. forces launched this week.

Air strikes on such a large scale have been rare in Iraq, especially over the past few months when the intensity of military action tapered off as overall violence declined.

http://hypem.com/track/463228     Electric Light Orchestra - Turn to Stone         http://armagideontime.blogspot.com/2008/01/friday-night-fights-murder-diva.html

can you say          genocide?

>

No. Not at all. Some call it war.       Thunderclap Newman Something In The Air

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV6qAGigGYY watch this boston globe report on nh

can you say          genocide?

>

No. Not at all. Some call it war.  call it what it is!!!!!! you think the bombs are missing  the little kids and there mothers and daddy your a sick fuck!!!!!!!!!!

Interesting stuff going on with the New Hampshire vote.   People saying it was Ron Paul who was cheated....and McCain didn't get the votes. Don't know if this has been posted, but here's a sample that does look strange with Paul and McCain:  

http://yannone.blogspot.com/2008/01/new-hampshire-election-fraud.html

Here's what a New Hampshire blogger said on 'hand count vs. diebold':   "No, no, and no. I'm a born and bred New Hampshire, one who is interested in both candidates, and I'll tell you right now: this doesn't fit the political profile of New Hampshire. We're genuinely one of the squeakiest-clean states when it comes to corruption. The big-city-rural-debate makes much more sense here. Look at the map at the NY Times on where Obama was popular--out in the western part of the state by Keene--VERY rural besides Keene--and right up the river to Canada--VERY rural, excluding Hanover, which is not really a city either. Lots of hand counting.
Take your conspiracy theories elsewhere,"

This election is going to get rough.....Kerry in his new book as reported on McLaughlin Group, "The only things the Clintons care about is themselves and power"

No Dan - I am not a "sick fuck."  You're very emotional.  Relax, I know you are upset.

http://hypem.com/track/458214       Gorillaz - Kids With Guns (Hot Chip Remix)

per last

http://bridgingtheatlantic.blogspot.com/2008/01/hot-chip-hot-single.html

Moyers on now...separating fact from fiction on the campaign trail.

I don't think there is a moral lesson in your posted "parable," Dan.  I don't think it reflects morality.  Where is the virtue?

http://www.alternet.orgGeorge Carlin: "It's Called the American Dream Because You Have To Be Asleep to Believe It" [VIDEO]/blogs/video/61955

And Dennis Kucinich on tv tonight said "it isn't about Senator Obama or Senator Clinton'.....maybe Dennis wants to 'blow the lid off' the Republican Diebold fix. ?  We're all distracted with Hillary getting more votes than the 'media' expected....

I don't think there is a moral lesson in your posted "parable," Dan.  I don't think it reflects morality.  Where is the virtue?   wait till they take your job!!!!!!!!feed your kids some moral thats a good virtue! fell to see the big piture,

I like Carlin.  Always have, and I have been aware of him since the early 70's or sooner.  Watching you posted clip I am reminded of what my parents would knowingly ask me, which I couldn't put my finger on, "Who are they?"

But, did they know?  Seems to me, NOT.

Nothing wrong w/Obama's strategic reproductive votes while in the IL Senate (Rovian smear by Billary's campaign):

http://tinyurl.com/3yh383

http://tinyurl.com/yo4njs

She might wanna 'splain "ending welfare as we know it" to working class and low income women of color (parenting their own children is not longer a "countable work activity").

Same w/Obama--rhetoric means nothing to women...where's the MONEY????

Ahem...can't glorify the 19th century Cult of True Womanhood (unpaid labor, thanks) w/someone who also claims that she only "found her voice" this past week.

WTF

Doesn't work that way.

After presumable 35 yrs. of "change" from Billary, why isn't the Equal Pay Act of *1963* being enforced, hmmmmmmmm?

She spewed mamby-pamby rhetoric last week concerning Family Medical Leave Act; which "allows" unpaid time off in the waged work sector (to both sexes, but it's women who're typically saddled w/freebie caregiving of children and elders).

Women lose over $1.5M over their lifetimes w/all this freebie labor (which includes volunteerism of any sort).

I do NOT care for the "communitarianism" crap of Obama's.

I'm a free thinking Atheist, thanks...my personal life/leisure time belongs to Moi.

Certainly not while on the brink of recession and mass foreclosures.

Again--WTF?

S.C.'s gonna be *ugly* next week. Intersections of race, class, and gender.

The DNC inbox SPAM (just today=four) has been beyond reproach--by someone who resides locally.

She needs to be grateful that I'm not responding to her until morning!

The [un]democratic party has tossed its low income (working and blue collar class base) into the gutter...left' 'em for dead.

That sh^tty minimum wage bill they're so proud about is insulting as hell. Not at all livable.

DANIEL ROONEY

>

Dan, I know "illegals"

I don't want "illegals" here

It isn't personal, it's just wrong

Music icon Carlos Santana has been blending salsa, rock, blues and jazz for more than four decades and has won more than 70 awards, including 11 Grammys. His son, Salvador, started playing music at age 6 and eventually joined the family business, combining Latin rhythms and hip-hop vocals. The father-son duo has collaborated on several projects, including the Grammy-winning track 'El Farol' from Santana's album "Supernatural" and 'Open up Your Eyes,' a song for the compilation CD, "Food For Thought."

http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200801/20080111.html

The [un]democratic party has tossed its low income (working and blue collar class base) into the gutter...left' 'em for dead.

>

You and others make good points on this.  Edwards and Obama may provide a home.

Billy Bragg - chromewaves radio, Positively 4th Street Play        http://hypem.com/track/460948

How's that^ for serendipity, mainefem?

Hi Folks,

Just returned from the caucus training in Estes Park.  There were at least 75 or 80 people there representing 8 precincts.  It was standing room only, pretty evenly divided between men and women, though the greater percentage were middle aged to older folks.

It was beautifully done.  The caucus procedures were explained and then Betsy Markey running for the House of Representatives spoke, and then four others represenitng Hilary Clinton, Barack Obama, Dennis Kucinich, and John Edwards spoke.  After about five minutes, we all asked questions.

What i can say briefly is how civil, how sincere, and well represented all the candidates were.  Moreover, each said that this was the best group of candiates that has been seen in years and said they would vote the winning canidate.  There was no rancor, positions were explained, and yes, some adopted the same position as another candidate, but as one of the speakers said, there's nothing wroing with adopting a good idea.

I felt so proud and enthusiastic.  It wasn't a tear-down session, a drawing of unfavorable opinons session, rather pointing out the top priorities of each of the candidates.  It really came down to style except for HIllary, who is much more the conservative democrat, and there were good things to say about her.

What's crucial is that we get a Democartic Congress and administration because what we have now is destroying our democratic republic, is making us a pariah in the world, and the Peak Oil crisis should occur around 2010 - 2013, and if we don't do something now about Global Warming and the fuel problem, we may not be around.

I had nothing but respect for the difficult job an honest public servant does, and these were outstanding people.  All the Rush LImbaugh ugliness was absent, though it was said that's what we will see from the Republicans and if we are not careful ourselves, we will engage in it as well.  

I'll give some more specific information if anyone is interested (I'll assume that maybe a few are), but as usual, I fade at about 9 PM and it's an hour and a half later.  Just wanted you all to know how upbeat, thoughtful, well presented all the candiddates' representatives were, and to add a note of caution not to engage in the kinds of denigration that will hurt us as a whole.  That advice certainly applies to me, and I will try my best to be reasonable and open minded even though I have decided to support Barack Obama.  

Brief note to Phil, the education plan was explained in more detail, and I will look into it. 

Paine, Thankful sed to tellya that she's sorry she missed you today. Try again next week.



To the rest: Kindness is free.
(in case you didn't see it on the last thread)

12:47 am EST

As the Stephanie Miller show would say: "The rod up that man's butt must have a rod up it's butt."

Kos:

"Again, if the people making unsupported allegations want to pay for a recount, all the power to them. That's not a bad thing, that's a good thing. But ante up the cash. If they are so convinced that fraud exists, they can even justify the expense as an opportunity to have me and other skeptics in the reality based community eat some serious crow. But other than Kucinich putting a $2,000 down payment toward the cost of that recount, I haven't seen any efforts to raise that money."

I just sent Dennis some cash.

Kos also calls those who have questions about the NH results "fraudsters."

If Kos thinks that a recount would be such a "good thing," why is he name-calling those calling for it.

As Kucinich said, this is an opportunity to show the true results either way.  Nobody thinks the results for DK will be any different, but isn't this a good thing to raise awareness about for those who value Democracy?  Ever see the name of this site?

If Markos thinks that anyone who has a question about voting integrity is a nut job, has he not seen Bev Harris and Howard Dean himself hack a machine in seconds right before our very eyes (well sort of) on the Donny Deutsch show? 

Puddle, I guess I missed that she had returned.  I worked 'til 9 tonight and started my "lunch" @ 7:30 close to "the building" at a Barnes and Nobles, where is purchased Tao de Gung

Subject: Obama's church

after you read this article and the link about Obama's church, go to Google and check out all of the sites about this church.  Sobering reading.  mp

Obama mentioned his church during his appearance with Oprah.  It's the Trinity Church of Christ.  

Obama's church: Please read and go to this church's website and read what is written there. It is very alarming. Barack Obama is a member of this church and is running for President of the U.S. If you look at the first page of their website, you will learn that this congregation has a non-negotiable commitment to Africa . No where is AMERICA even mentioned.

Notice too, what color you will need to be if you should want to join Obama's church... B-L-A-C-K!!!  

Doesn't look like his choice of religion has improved much over his (former?) Muslim upbringing.

Are you aware that Obama's middle name is Mohammed? Strip away his nice looks, the big smile and smooth talk and what do you get? Certainly a racist, as plainly defined by the stated position of his church! And possibly a covert worshiper of the Muslim faith, even today. This guy desires to rule over America while his loyalty is totally vested in a Black Africa !

 I cannot believe this has not been all over the TV and newspapers. This is why it is so important to pass this message along to all of our family & friends. To think that Obama has even the slightest chance in the run for the presidency, is really scary.

Click on the link for the church Barack Obama belongs to: www.tucc.org/about.htm

I should say that the machines hacked by Howard and Bev Harris were touchscreen voting machines, not optical scan counters like those in NH. However, it is still good to bring integrity to the process and awareness to potential problems.

Saying there is no evidence of problems in NH is like saying we can't pursue impeachment because we don't have the votes.  Of course you don't have the votes. You haven't even brought forth any evidence through investigation.

Of course there is no evidence of problems in NH. That is the whole point! There can be no evidence without a recount. The "results" are owned by a private corporation and exit polls are now adjusted to match the vote totals.

Damned straight, Paine.

The[un]democatic party is attempting to define itself for the "middle class," which relegates its base (women and persons of color) into the gutter.

I'm sitting on my hands; and it appears (from a dire lack of caucus convenors in my county) that I'm not the only one.

Only 23 of 59 towns & cities are covered. Can't vote w/o convenors.

http://tinyurl.com/27yfcu

Oopsie. Turnout will be more pathetic than I thought--they'll be forced to look inward (@state, county, & municipal levels).

Pissing off the base in Maine=a minimum *loss* of 10K+ Democrats in two yrs. (mostly '04 disaffected progressives, who are not at all happy w/our Gov. and state legislative peeps).

The silence is deafening. Dems *cannot* win w/o female voters.

That's a fact (despite the idiotic 'misty' rationale we witnessed of late).

The presumption is that those core constituencies "have no place else to go."

However, sitting on one's hands also works.

Four DNC-related SPAM emails in my inbox within a few hrs. seriously pisses me off (from a local Dem. activist).

Nada.

I'm not even *registered* as a Dem.; and have no intentions of doing so, unless I perceive Billary as being close to "presumptive" status within the next week or two (by Feb. 10th).

21.

DANIEL ROONEY

>

Dan, I know "illegals"

I don't want "illegals" here

It isn't personal, it's just wrong  agree peace out!!!!!!!!!

does not make a show of his might;

One who is good in battle does not get angry;

One who is good at defeating the enemy does not

engage him

  ~Lao Tzu

Pat, sorry i don't have a worthy question, but I liked your post very much.

From Salon:

Regional differences…the reason Obama did better in smaller districts, 750 or less, where hand-counting was used.  …Even more interesting is the third table on this page, which shows how the candidates did in places with more than 1,500 votes. Here, Clinton, not Obama, did better in hand-count areas --

a lot better, 44.17 percent to Obama's 31.61 percent. Meanwhile, in similarly large counties where machines counted the vote, Clinton's margin was smaller -- 40.28 percent to Obama's 35.96 percent. it's possible to find many counties where Obama won handily even despite Diebold (Amherst, for instance, which uses optical-scan voting and where where he got 44.68 percent; if the Diebold machines were hacked for Clinton, they didn't do much good there).

At the same time, Clinton won in many areas that manually count their votes -- she got 44.44 percent in Boscawen, 43.93 percent in Carroll, 43.52 percent in Charleston, and on and on.

In a video that you can watch here, Matthews says, "Even our own exit polls, taken as people came out of voting, showed him ahead. So what's going on here?"   But information I've been able to find about the intra-Election Day exits suggests that Matthews is letting his Clinton hatred get ahead of the facts.

1:23

off to the place of pillows

Moyers had one of the most interesting and intriguing shows I've ever seen.  His second guest was Shelby Steele, author of "A Bound Man, Why Obama Cannot Win."  Steele's mom was white, his father black and the topic revolved a great deal around Obama.   I've written down quotes.

He referred to BO as the candidate of "redemption."  He said there are 2 kinds of blacks in the public arena; the bargainers and the challengers.  Oprah and Obama are bargainers, Al Sharpton is a challenger.  Bargainers make this unspoken deal with whites.  You don't hold me back or criticize me for being black and I will not assume you're racist.   Sharpton starts out assuming whites are racist.  Steele said and I quote, "Obama relieves the anxiety of being white." 

These are some of the adjectives he used to describe Obama....  wears "masks" is "invisible" he "accommodates" and is an "empty projection screen"  upon which whites project their hopes.  He went on to say that he walks a fine line between being one thing when he talks to blacks and another when talking to whites....that's where his masks come in.  And his talking w/o saying concrete things keeps him "invisible."  You don't know who the real Obama is..he's hidden.

I believe he also said (or maybe the woman guest before him) that Edwards is the most genuine, the most consistent candidate and is getting short shrift from the CM.  Edwards knows who he is and is comfy in his skin.

Shelby Steele sounded like he knows exactly what he's talking about since he grew up as a black person.  I think he has much better insight into the psychology of the black heart and mind than we *honky* whites do.  He didn't sound anti-BO at all; he sounded like he knew about black people ... much more than whites know.

He also discussed how blacks are leery of BO, even afraid, since he wears masks and won't expose his thoughts, feelings, identity, etc..but rather, talks in sweeping generalities and inspiring tones.

So now I wish I'd taped the show and I want to read his book.

I have to say that I agree with Steele about BO and Steele said that it was very difficult for him to become himself growing up between the white and black worlds.  That's a paraphrase.

Åt the risk of causing all sorts of reactions here, I would say that I like BO, and I think he's burning his candle at both ends and can't win the gen'l.  If he continues to pander to the whites, he'll lose the black vote and vice versa. 

I'd vote for Steele in a heartbeat.  Book is  "A Bound Man"

I predict that Obama supporters will rue the day they didn't support Edwards; that even if Obama gets the nod, he'll lose the gen'l to a horror show repug.  

It' getting nasty out there and now we have to consider not only issues but electability.  In those areas, JE wins hands down, if we can give him the money he need.

I would like to suggest to all Obama supporters to read the transcript of "NOW" with an open mind.  Who knows an educated black/white man better than another educated black/white man?

...lots of anxious whites trying to do the right thing and assuage the collective guilt. 

Pardon the typos.

Off to hunt some D&G.  :-) 

From Post above:

"Even before John Edwards was chasing ambulances in North
Carolina and Barack was voting ‘present’ in the Illinois state senate," Senator Clinton was involved in major policy initiatives, he said.

LOL!

Putz's fixation with killing expressed again, thru tears of course.

Bush: US should have acted on Auschwitz A teary-eyed President Bush stopped in front of an aerial photo of Auschwitz on Friday at Israel's Holocaust memorial and said the U.S. should have sent bombers to prevent the extermination of Jews there. Yad Vashem's chairman, Avner Shalev, quoted Bush as saying the U.S. should have "bombed it."

Putz loves these statements by heads of state since it brings out his killer instinct, which never appears to sleep.

Pakistan Warns US of Entering Border Regions to Fight al-Qaida: Report Musharraf warned that US troops would be regarded as invaders if they crossed into Pakistan's border region with Afghanistan in the hunt for al-Qaida or Taliban militants. "If they come without our permission, that's against the sovereignty of Pakistan. I challenge anybody coming into our mountains," he said in the interview in the garrison city of Rawalpindi. "They would regret that day."

Hello Joe!  Who are you? :-)

John Dean: Fixing the Broken Presidential Nomination Process Both major parties' inability to fix this fundamental problem should call into question their ability to govern. It is a very bad sign that a matter as basic as nominating presidential candidates has been turned into a contest of money-raising and organization. Such a contest surely does not translate into effective governing (as Bush and Cheney have proven).

Has he stopped talking about the 2 Americas?  I haven't heard him mention them in awhile.  Hmmmm.  I think he also could win in SC.

The Last Stand of John Edwards (Brent Budowsky) If Edwards slightly retools his message back towards his “two Americas” of 2004, he has a chance to win the upcoming debate so decisively that he will be able to take his case to an Alamo-like stand in Texas and Ohio. He should talk about two Americas among voters, but also the greater America that is possible with Edwards as president and a Democratic House and Senate.

..from above article

"Edwards should escalate his noble support for homeless veterans and make a direct appeal to military families as well as Middle America, because on issues like healthcare, they are all part of the one America we seek, and all shortchanged, in the same way, for the same reasons, by the same forces, in the two Americas we have.

Edwards can win the upcoming debates, and win them big, but to do so, must reconnect with the broader Middle America — which he has not done in 2008. In 2004 he argued populism with optimism; in 2008 he argues populism with anger. He was right the first time, and just as John McCain adjusted back towards his message of 2000, Edwards should adjust back towards his message of 2004.

The big truth that we are not hearing from the insider political classes is this: With far fewer candidates in the coming debates, Edwards has a far greater chance to get his message out, win those debates and revive what would be a long-shot candidacy based on high principles and high hopes.

Edwards needs to give his own vision, his own “I Have A Dream” message that not only dramatizes the injustice and wrongs, but uplifts voters with a portrait of the good that is possible with a Democratic president named John Edwards and a Democratic Congress to pass his program and lift America, while he changes America."

Goodnite, good bloggy folk.

One last thing.

"Even before John Edwards was chasing ambulances in North
Carolina

 WOOF WOOF  :-)

can you say          genocide?

>

No. Not at all. Some call it war.

Same difference to the non-psychopath segment of humanity. 

Dan, I know "illegals"

I don't want "illegals" here

It isn't personal, it's just wrong

So make 'em legal. Lou Dobbs sure as hell ain't gonna get rid of 'em.

"Even before John Edwards was chasing ambulances in North
Carolina and Barack was voting ‘present’ in the Illinois state senate," Senator Clinton was involved in major policy initiatives, he said.

What a pro --  taking the low road and the high one in the same sentence. Typical Hillary mouthpiece.

People can gripe about Obama sounding too noble (just like Edwards and Hillary actually), but this is what he's up against.

And since we're demanding specifics these days -- after almost of year of debating their proposals -- just what are these major initiatives Hillary crows about? NAFTA of 1993? Her health insurance fiasco that brought down the entire party in 1994? Kicking kids off of public assistance in 1995 (disingenuously called "welfare reform")? The telecom sellout of 1998? Voting for Bush's bankrupcy revision against ordinary people in 2004? NCLB? Iraq? Patriot Crap?

If that's not what she's talking about being "involved in," she and her pawns should be specific about what. 

Voting for Bush's bankruptcy revision against ordinary people in 2004 2001?

Edwards has been running since 2003. It doesn't seem likely that he can reinvent himself again (which didn't help him the last time he did it anyway), or come up with some new message or delivery, or start winning debates decisively after never doing so yet (makes one wonder how he was such a great lawyer).

Not saying he can't win, but people are going to have to change their minds about him on their own. There isn't much if anything he can do to change them.

To find a way to make quality health care available to all Iowans, the Legislature established a bipartisan Commission on Affordable Health Care last spring.  All interested parties had a seat at the table: medical providers, consumers, legislators, the insurance industry, small businesses and hospitals. 

Over the last several months, the Commission studied factors impacting the cost of health care, such as cost-sharing, collaborative opportunities, and wellness- and disease-prevention initiatives.  On January 8, the Commission announced its recommendations for reforming health care in Iowa.  Their proposal uses innovative approaches to cover all Iowans while controlling health care costs.

The first step is to provide health care insurance for every Iowa child.  Other aspects of the Commission’s long-term plan for health care in Iowa include universal coverage; an emphasis on healthy lifestyles and preventing chronic problems; tele-health and electronic reforms; containing medical costs; and increasing transparency in the health care system.

During the 2008 session, the Legislature will thoroughly review the Health Care Commission’s bipartisan recommendations.  It is my hope that we can come up with a comprehensive approach to providing top-notch health care for Iowans, while keeping costs down for patients, providers and employers.

For complete details on the Commission’s work, go to www.legis.state.ia.us.  Hear Commission members’ remarks about their proposals at www.iowasenatedemocrats.org\media.

All the products available for purchase at our online store are union made and union printed in the USA.

Good morning, everybody

Can we say that the Clinton supporters are lacking in class?  

Gives a whole new meaning to classless.  LOL 

If freedom is obedience to the law, then any action that's not covered by law is ipso facto unlawful or illegal.  If you a assume that a mobile creature is entitled by its creator to wander the earth wherever his/her legs can go, then the effort to errect arbitrary boundaries and, indeed, the effort to declare some areas as prohibited space has to be justified by some compensatory benefit which exceeds the cost of limiting free transit.  In other words, the recognition of private property rights would seem to impose an obligation to provide sustenance to those to whom access is denied.  

What our authoritarians would have us believe is that such restrictions have to be honored first and then, just maybe, if other conditions are met, basic needs will be satisfied.  Or, you could say that the authoritarian mode sets coercion as the default and humans have to demonstrate their worthiness to survive.

Previous musings were no doubt prompted by the description of the rural areas south of Baghdad as "un-governed" and the Romney assertion that he "governed."  Clearly, there's a failure to appreciate that it is the people who govern and public officials are their agents.

Good morning, BFA! Thanks for the Thankful update, puddle.

From my email in-box [sic] ... from www.ccrjustice.org

How do the top three Dems measure up on this issue? It's a very big one, IMO.

==========
Today marks a shameful anniversary: it is six years since the opening of the detention camp at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. Six years after the first 20 men arrived at the offshore prison camp, Guantánamo has held close to 800 men and become an international symbol of torture, abuse of executive power, and disregard for the rule of law. Guantánamo should be a central issue for the presidential candidates: please help us pin them down to concrete plans and solutions, not just vague statements. Write the candidates today and demand that they promise to close Guantánamo.

[...]
Take action today! Write to all of the Republican and Democratic presidential candidates and demand that they promise to:

Close Guantánamo and provide a detailed plan for how and when they would do so;
End the use of torture, extraordinary rendition, and ghost detention;
Rescind the legal memos that have been used by this administration to justify and redefine torture;
Safely resettle all released detainees and work actively to find safe third countries for those who fear torture in their home countries;
Abide by the Geneva Conventions, international law, and all of the treaties we have signed.

[...]
==========================

About CCR:

The Center for Constitutional Rights is dedicated to advancing and protecting the rights guaranteed by the United States Constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Founded in 1966 by attorneys who represented civil rights movements in the South, CCR is a non-profit legal and educational organization committed to the creative use of law as a positive force for social change.

41.  Whites have always reconciled the conflict between their expectations (prejudice against blacks) with their experience by the "exception that proves the rule."  That doesn't mean that they defined the blacks they liked as exceptional, but that the attitude they needed to accept in order to fit into their  own group allowed for exceptions to the "truth" they'd been provided by kith and kin.  

The other alternative, when experience contradicts expectation is to simply discard the expectation and reject the source.  This is relatively easy if the source isn't otherwise beneficial--i.e. a hateful father's prejudice is easy to discard; not so the "advice" of a loving father, even if, in the long run, the loving father's motivation is not altruistic.  Can Obama be the exception that proves the rule?  Surely he can for some whites.  

African American blacks that are not recent immigrants, are likely to feel resentment because they don't want to be the exception, they want to be accepted on the basis of their achievements. The problem with Obama is that his achievements are thin, especially when you compare them with what other African Americans have achieved with much less recognition.  

On the other hand, the same is true for Hillary Clinton.  Her actual achievements are even thinner and her sticking with an abusive spouse for thirty five years is not a good sign.  She's made a deal with the devil for which many other people have paid the price.

Recount news

Officials in N.H. agree to recount primary vote

Email|Print| Text size – +

By

Associated Press / January 12, 2008



CONCORD, N.H. - New Hampshire officials agreed yesterday to conduct complete hand recounts of Tuesday's Democratic and Republican presidential primaries.



Representative Dennis Kucinich, who received less than 2 percent of the Democratic vote, and Albert Howard of Michigan, who received about 40 votes in the GOP primary, each paid a $2,000 fee to start the process, officials said.



Both candidates agreed in writing to pay the full cost of the recounts, Secretary of State William Gardner said. Both could back out when they get the estimates, expected next week. Deputy Secretary of State David Scanlan said recounts could start Wednesday.



Kucinich cited "serious and credible reports, allegations and rumors" in requesting the Democratic recount. Howard did not explain his request. In a letter Thursday, Kucinich said he does not expect significant changes in his vote total, but wants assurance that "100 percent of the voters had 100 percent of their votes counted." Kucinich alluded to online reports alleging disparities around the state between hand-counted ballots, which tended to favor Barack Obama, and machine-counted ones that tended to favor Hillary Clinton, who narrowly defeated Obama.

 

33.  For the record, unlike Huckabee and Romney, Obama is neither a minister or bishop and has, as far as I know, never 'HAD' a church.  It would be good if people could strive for a little more accuracy about who's doing what when and to whom.

I realize it's presumptuous, but my argument has been for a long time that shared antagonism based on prejudice has little to nothing to do with the object of that attitude, but rather serves a perceived need or benefit for those who share it.  If people need to feel superior to somebody, then that's clearly not the somebody's fault.  

For some reason, people who gravitate towards the Republican party prefer to be "other-directed" rather than "self-directed."  They prefer their behavior to be controlled by others, rather than to control themselves.  

Of course, "other-directed" can be defined as concerned about the interests of others, which would equate it with un-selfishness, a virtue.  And that's how it's sold.  That's why self-directed is preferred to self-control.  The latter is clearly a positive attribute from an ethical perspective, but negative from a moral one, if you equate "moral" with "socially defined."  Those who hold to the latter definition would argue that for an act to be moral it has to be socially directed.  For example, sharing one's meal with a hungry person would not be a moral act, unless it was in response to a social directive and recognized as such.  Random acts of kindness don't count.

Just checked through the remaining Dem candidates for the Guantanamo-related issues.

If someone can point out something that I missed, please do.

==============
From Hillary's site: HRC's website shows nothing specific to Guantanamo or *justice* or *constitutional rights." Vague language about *Restoring America's standing in the world* (where she devotes an entire paragraph to the concerns of Israel and condemns the democratically elected government of Palestine; nothing about Geneva Conventions) and Defending our democracy* (making sure every vote counts, etc.).

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/sec...

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/vot...

My comments: How can America's standing be restored and what is democracy without justice and guaranteed constitional rights?

==============
From Obama's site: “When I am this party's nominee, my opponent will not be able to say that I voted for the war in Iraq; or that I gave George Bush the benefit of the doubt on Iran; or that I supported Bush-Cheney policies of not talking to leaders that we don't like. And he will not be able to say that I wavered on something as fundamental as whether or not it is ok for America to torture — because it is never ok… I will end the war in Iraq… I will close Guantanamo. I will restore habeas corpus. I will finish the fight against Al Qaeda. And I will lead the world to combat the common threats of the 21st century: nuclear weapons and terrorism; climate change and poverty; genocide and disease. And I will send once more a message to those yearning faces beyond our shores that says, "You matter to us. Your future is our future. And our moment is now.”

— Barack Obama, Des Moines, Iowa, November 10, 2007

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/foreig...

My comments: these are very nice words, but I see nothing specific in his plans for closing Guantanamo or redressing these wrongs that continue daily. Merely speaking out is not enough.

================
From Edward's site: JRE addresses the issues of torture, closing Guantanamo, restoring habeas corpus, and defending the Constitution squarely.

http://www.johnedwards.com/issues/civil-...

My comment: will he deliver? I'll take the chance.


================
From Kucinich's site: DK doesn't speak directly to Gitmo that I could find. He does address some constitutional issues.

http://www.dennis4president.com/go/issue...

http://www.dennis4president.com/go/issue...

My comments: He identifies foreign policy problems but a slogan (*Strength through Peace*) alone won't resolve them, I'm afraid. He demonstrates admirable concerns about the Constitution, democracy and privacy rights but does not address *justice.*

==============
From Gravel's site: MG *is adamantly opposed to torture, indefinite detention, and the deprivation of lawyers/speedy trials. He opposes the Military Commissions Act, flagrant ignorance of the Geneva convention, and Guantanamo.*

http://www.gravel2008.us/issues (scroll down to the bottom)

My comments: I too adamantly oppose all of these. MG has it right on lots of things. But there is no plan that I can see.

John Edwards has a problem in that nobody asked him to volunteer to be President.  I think that's what makes him suspect.  Maybe he needs to emphasise that he's motivated by the desire to give something back.

Hillary Clinton, on the other hand, seems to be looking to get something back for all thehard work and effort she's invested in compromising her principles. 

66. Thanks for setting the record straight. But the mere fact that BO felt that he had to address the issue of faith specifically sends up lots of red flags to my mind.

And how the heck does *faith* help against AIDS? From what I've seen, it's been one of the greatest obstacles to treatment. Sheesh.

Any person who believes that he has to explain his/her faith to me ... when I already can get a pretty good idea of that from observation of the individual's behavior and words in other contexts ... is someone that does not make me feel comfortable at all.

I am not biased against a religious individual per se. But I tend not to trust an individual who believes that his/her religious practice must be ostentatious.

====================

[...]
In June of 2006, Senator Obama delivered what was called the most important speech on religion and politics in 40 years. Speaking before an evangelical audience, Senator Obama candidly discussed his own religious conversion and doubts, and the need for a deeper, more substantive discussion about the role of faith in American life.

Senator Obama also laid down principles for how to discuss faith in a pluralistic society, including the need for religious people to translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values during public debate. In December, 2006, Senator Obama discussed the importance of faith in the global battle against AIDS.

[...]
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/faith/...

68.  We are in a bit of a pickle because so many of the injustices are actually supported in the law.  So, unless the Congress re-writes the laws we are going to be in the position of relying on the executive not to carry them out--which is exactly the pattern that Bush Two has set.

Really, Edwards is right that the corporations are the problem; he's wrong in suggesting that it's just the private corporations that are at fault.  The public corporations--i.e. agencies of government--are just as bad, if not worse.  Take, for example, the Pentagon.  The military has long been responsible for the grossest pollution of the environment.  Just think of a thousand planes taking off in Iraq in every month.  How much pullution are they contributing to the atmosphere?  What about all the blown up munitions?  What about the DU contamination?  Even here at home one of the prime motivations for closing many militay bases was to evade the responsibility to clean up contamination.

70.  Well, if you believe that people are good, then you want to protect them from debilitating disease that is likely to kill them off early.  If, on the other hand, you believe that people are naturally bad, then more of them being killed off sooner is better.  The conservative attitude, I think, is basically that people who don't obey, don't deserve to live.  So, if they didn't obey the directive not to engage in intimate relations with other people who might be sick (never mind how they're supposed to divine that), then they deserve to die because they've been disobedient.  It's simple, really.  What you believe, a matter of faith.

72. That's even scarier, IMO.

Paul Craig Roberts on the economy

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts01112...

[snip]
Offshoring is now reaching beyond manufacturing into high-end service jobs. Princeton University economist Alan Blinder, a former vice chairman of the Federal Reserve, estimates that there are as many as 30 million US service jobs filled by college graduates that are susceptible to offshoring.
...
...
An economy that concentrates its income gains at the very top while wiping out high value-added jobs by sending them abroad, thus dismantling the ladders of upward mobility, is an economy headed for serious troubles even without subprime derivative and currency problems.

71. Any laws that contravene our treaty obligations and the Geneva Conventions should indeed be rewritten. Other laws should be challenged and struck down as unconstitutional.

Of course, with this set of Supremes, beholden to the Unitary Executive, the second will not happen. That is why, bottom line, I have no choice, however I may personally feel, other that to support the anti-Rethug.

Dan Froomkin nails it yet again. Pomp, ceremony, and lots of security guards & expense ... all signifying nothing.

===============
Coming Up Empty
By Dan Froomkin
Special to washingtonpost.com
Friday, January 11, 2008; 12:46 PM

So what's President Bush got to show for his three-day visit to Israel and the West Bank? Not much more than a bunch of pretty pictures for his scrapbook.

James Gerstenzang and Richard Boudreaux write in the Los Angeles Times: "President Bush completed two days of meetings with Israeli and Palestinian leaders Thursday without a firm public commitment from Israel to halt expansion of West Bank settlements or give the Palestinians a bigger role in policing the territory.

"Nor did the president make progress on a key Israeli concern that has stood in the way of peace talks for years: a halt in rocket attacks on southern Israel by Palestinian militants based in the Gaza Strip."

Richard Wolf writes in USA Today: "Though his language was strong and his mood upbeat, Bush prepared to leave Israel today without any specific progress on the peace talks he jump-started six weeks ago in Annapolis, Md. . . .

"Diana Buttu, a former spokeswoman and negotiator for the Palestine Liberation Organization, said Bush's visit produced more talk than action. 'The real question is, what is he going to be doing?' she said. 'It doesn't seem like he's doing more than making speeches.'"

Tabassum Zakaria and Matt Spetalnick write for Reuters that Bush departs with "no major breakthroughs for his efforts.

"While [Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud] Abbas and [Israeli Prime Minister Ehud] Olmert praised Bush's peace bid, neither offered significant concessions to the U.S. leader. . . .

[...]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...

And here are some of the *pretty pictures* that Dan refers to.

Talk about looking *out of place* ...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/...

Many media pundits are still loathe to admit it, but the economy IS looking worse and worse.

===================
Fears About Economy Increase
Debt Crisis Grows; Top Mortgage Firm Sold at a Bargain
By Anthony Faiola and Tomoeh Murakami Tse
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, January 12, 2008; Page A01

Major banks and mortgage companies yesterday sharply accelerated an industry consolidation that is set to change the landscape of American lending, while a convergence of events exposed fresh worries about the U.S. economy.

New indications emerged yesterday that the spiraling subprime mortgage crisis is spreading from home loans to credit cards, potentially engulfing a far broader segment of Americans. At the same time, the U.S. trade deficit soared to a 14-month high, fueled by soaring oil prices.

And rising concern that U.S. investment houses, particularly Merrill Lynch, may yet suffer far greater losses, helped set up a wide market sell-off.

[...]
article/2008/01/11/AR2008011103959.html?hpid=topnews

76.  The President of NO.  He's made an art out of not doing.  Part of that is, no doubt, a consequence of the "importance of being."  He IS, he does nothing.  Bush Two is the answer to what the meaning of is is.

i AM WHO AM.  Isn't that what Yaweh asserts?

Interesting article ... I must say, even as a non-supporter of Clinton, I was feeling a bit of this myself.

Gender backlash ... you betcha.

Most women that I know always reserve the right to change their minds. I consider it a strength ... unlike those who stubbornly adhere to a set script, no matter what.

But it can make for some strange results.

==================
Hill's Angels - how angry women of New Hampshire saved Clinton
· Female voters enraged by coverage following Iowa rout
· Loss of composure in diner helped trigger 'perfect storm'
Suzanne Goldenberg in Portsmouth, New Hampshire
Saturday January 12, 2008
Guardian

This is where the revolution began: a cafe decorated with sunflower yellow walls and botanical prints, a default lunch spot on a day for running errands. It was here, over mid-morning coffee with undecided voters, that an exhausted Hillary Clinton came close to tears, and the women of New Hampshire - or at least those old enough to remember the struggles of the 70s or even Anita Hill's Senate testimony on sexual harassment in 1991 - decided it was time to come home.

It was not just pity, though a number of women admitted their eyes misted up at the sight of Clinton close to tears. It was not just annoyance at commentators who called Clinton "shrill", or anger at the hecklers who yelled: "Iron my shirt." Women, even those who have disliked Clinton since she arrived on the national stage in 1992, felt a sense of obligation.

[...]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,33204...

79. Insightful comment, Monica. I have never seen such an undeserving individual with such a sense of self-importance and entitlement.

How anyone could have fallen for this total farce of a leader is beyond me.

78.  Perhaps we could argue that a significant decrease in "conspicuous consumption" is part of the problem.  I don't mean the purchase of goods to impress the neighbors; I mean the purchase and enjoyment of transitory goods that we just look at--like art, the theater, tourism, musical performances.  American lives have been reduced to the bare essentials and the creative arts are concentrated on selling things we don't need and can't afford.

More on the much-ado-about-nothing I-P visit by the great putz ...

===============
Insubstantial pageant
Leader
Saturday January 12, 2008
The Guardian

After all the supercharged talk of change in the primaries this week, George Bush's trip to the Middle East served as a reminder that America still has a way to go before it can wave goodbye to all that. As with the US summit in Annapolis last year, it is hard, even for the congenital optimist, to find much to cling on to after Mr Bush's first visit to the region as president. In Prospero's words, "the great globe itself, yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve and, like this insubstantial pageant faded, leave not a rack behind". There could be few pageants less substantial than a belated trip by a discredited US president to the Middle East.

But nor would it be right to dismiss every word uttered as unimportant. There are adjustments in tone or wording which, in the right circumstances, could be built on. Mr Bush called explicitly for an end to the Israeli occupation after his first visit to the West Bank. He called for an end to Israeli settlement expansion and for the Palestinians to confront terrorism. He said the question of Palestinian refugees should be solved by compensation and the chance for them to live in a future Palestinian state. He set out a framework for a deal and said it could be achieved by the end of the year.

Unfortunately, the unity of Mr Bush's concept crumbles after cursory examination.

[...]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/...

81.  Remember the Dauphins of France?  The Regency?  Bush Two is a puppet.  That he's so very common, with his pigeon-toed walk, perpetuates the illusion that anyone can become President--don't need divine intervention or DNA.  LOL

putz blunders on ... coddled by Condi's inimitable *rhetoric.* She is without a doubt the most vacuous, least substantial, in a word, WORST US SoS ever.

There may be a gender backlash to that comment. LOL

===============
Bush takes soundings on Iran
Ian Black and Rory McCarthy in Jerusalem
Saturday January 12, 2008
Guardian

President George Bush yesterday began canvassing Arab support for containing Iran as his Middle East tour moved to the Gulf amid concerns about escalating tensions between Washington and Tehran.

En route from Tel Aviv to Kuwait after three days in Israel and the Palestinian territories, Condoleezza Rice, the US secretary of state, dismissed hopes for any sudden breakthroughs towards an agreement - despite the president's insistence that a treaty could be signed before he leaves office. "There isn't going to be a blinding flash in any of this, not on this trip, not on the next trip," Rice said. "But this is a process that is moving forward."

Bush went into talks with the Emir, Sheikh Sabah al Ahmed al Sabah, as well as holding a discussion with Kuwaiti women in the most liberal of the Gulf states. The US is popular there because of its role in the liberation from Iraqi occupation in 1991.

He was also scheduled to address US troops and meet General David Petraeus, commander of US forces in Iraq.

Worries about Iran's nuclear ambitions and backing for radical groups in Iraq, Lebanon and Palestine are expected to be the main theme of talks in Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

[...]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,33204...

83.  Assuming that the speeches are written by someone with some intelligence, there's an irresolvable contradiction in the assertion that the Palestinians deserve a homeland just as the Jews deserve a homeland.  Palestinians are defined by where they were born and where they live.  Jews are defined by what they believe.  That belief should trump reality is central to conservative thinking.  Nevertheless, it is logically inconsistent.  You can't make something the same as something else that isn't.

84. Too true ... how ironic that one of the world's greatest democracies has managed to saddle itself with the worst example of the abuses of hereditary monarchy.

86. I know that it's not conventional wisdom, nor the majority theory, but I still believe that the best solution is either for a federation of two states, with complete liberty to circulate, transact business and have full civil rights in either, no matter whether one is a Jew or a Palestinian, or one state, with full rights as citizens for all.

Palestinians, btw, are not only Muslim (as I know that you already know, Monica). Many are Christian, whose sects may date back much earlier than Roman Catholicism or any branch of Protestantism). That should not make a difference. After all, a human being is an human being, after all. But to some, it might, if they ever allow themselves to think about it.

As it is now, Palestinians who are citizens of Israel do not have full civil rights in the Israeli state. Back in the days of Gulf War I, when Saddam sent Scud missiles into northern Israel (where many Iraqi Jews has relocated, btz), all Israeli Jews were issued with free gas masks by the State. Israeli Palestinians were not.

They are clearly second-class citizens.

Lots of typos in that last ... and I need to get some work done here now.

Please just accept my generic apologies. If something is completely incomprehensible, I'll try to clarify. But not now.

bbl

52.

~So make 'em legal. Lou Dobbs sure as hell ain't gonna get rid of 'em.
>

I am for that.  I was OK with the plan which Romney and the others call amnesty and was not. 

The plan provided a path, which took 13 years and included financial penalties.  Certainly is not amnesty no matter how loud ones voice.

90.  The mistake got started when we accepted an equation between citizen and legal or foreign and illegal.  Citizenship is a category that imposes more obligations or responsibilities, not more benefits.  Citizens are part of the government, help select the agents, and participate on juries.

The idea that citizenship is connected to a right to be here or work here is of recent vintage.  I suspect that it's a reaction to the civil rights movement which, for the first time, assigned the right to participate in government on something other than personal criteria such as gender or race.  This all-inclusiveness is what prompted an effort to devise some exclusive criteria, such as criminal convictions.  Once that was established, it became fairly easy to exclude a class of people by running them through the judicial system.  

What I would argue is that while complexion appears to be integral to the exclusionary process, it's largely co-incidental.  Sort of like when you're sorting beans, it's convenient to do so by color.  Indeed, in the case of beans, the color is just a matter of convenience and in no way connected to a preference or the nutritional value of the bean.  

The purpose of segregation is to exclude some people and include others, giving the latter a sense of self-importance which is entirely undeserved, but also not significant because the benefit is realized by those who supervise the process.  It's not a matter of material benefits; it's a matter of power. Indeed, as we are seeing now, a deficit of material benefits is being realized across the board.  If one little segment of the population can't be abused with impunity, then the whole population will have to be abused by the upper one percent.

Citizenship is a category that imposes more obligations or responsibilities, not more benefits.  Citizens are part of the government, help select the agents, and participate on juries.  

<

That's good stuff, Monica.  Important to point out, but what is your take?  Do you favor a path to citizenship?  Or do we do as the Republican Party, many corporations and lowest wage possible businesses or individuals want and continue with the status quo, which erodes the American fabric?

Deval Patrick (Gov Mass) is once again talking of taxpayer financed secondary education for children of foreign citizens in the country long term illegally.  It's an odoriferous stir on the airwaves here in Massachusetts.  Hate radio dislikes that the people elected Deval over their very vocal, constant attack.

Smoke weed and you are taken from your house and lose, lose, lose.

Live, work, and participate in the benefits of citizenship outside the boundaries of the law and there are no consequences.  Nada.  Nyet.

Patrick eyes in-state tuition for illegal immigrant students

 ....bill that would let those students pay the same rate as their high school classmates.

Judy and Monica, thanks for a good 'read' this morning !

Paine, you need to hump more stops per hour because lunch at
1900 isnt cutting the mustard. ;)

chilimac, you got the vernacular! (stops/on-road hour)

It was a miserable day on the road with the rain and baggin' everthing. 

Heck chil, no injuries (reported), accidents, conserns, claims...with efficiency seems good to me. 

Watched a good 20/20 last nite..............on "happiness"...............

Denmark is the happiest country................the US 23rd and Iraq last.............the Danes are taxed 65% of their income.............their healthcare is free, education free, many government supported jobs...............many ride bikes to and fro work.............simpler forms of housing..................

The happiest place in America?   LOL............good ole Asheville, NC.........one of the several "pockets" of liveral activity and rebellion.........artists, painters, protesters, coffee shops..................etc

The ratiionale that employees are responsible for the wages they are paid is a convenient fiction that lets businesses off the hook.  To the extent that an enterprise gets itself a legal status as a formal partnership or corporation and thereby takes advantage of the regulatory environment of the state, that enterprise should be required to pay out a wage that sustains the employe and makes it possible for him/her to support a replacement--i.e. off-spring.  

The U.S. has long taken advantage of the fact that other nations across the seas reproduced and reared off-spring to adulthood and then sent them here to contribute their skills.  One of the reasons American public schools have lagged is because the country was used to getting something for nothing (relatively healthy and fundamentally trained young adults) from abroad and, as a result, could skimp on the ones that were born here.  Indeed, much of the education has always focused on acculturation and socialization of the first generation.  African Americans naturally don't thrive in an environment that aims to socialize new-comers. They've had all the socialization they could want and those that resist the inculcation of subservience don't thrive.

mainefem wrote "Nothing wrong w/Obama's strategic reproductive votes while in the IL Senate (Rovian smear by Billary's campaign)"

I can't act sanguine about Barbara's criticisms of Obama's "present" votes on reproduction rights legislation in the Illinois State House.  The disinformation comes directly from the Clinton campaign's book of dirty politics.  At one time, I would have considered it beneath the dignity of this community, but times have changed.

94.  The law, as it applies to individuals, is supposed to tell what you can't do because it is harmful to someone else.  Trying to stuff work into that category makes no sense.  The only way they can come close is by arguing that one person being productive somehow injuries another because a third doesn't pay a sufficient wage.  In other words, they're setting up a triangular relationship in which the cause and effect are speculative.  

It really doesn't make logical sense.  Think about feeding your cat less because you don't want the dog to get fat.  Now, if the dog has been eating the cat's food, that may work, sort of, in the long run, but there's also a good chance that the cat will starve to death.  

I made that first disctinction about the law because the law, as it applies to agents of the state, tells them what they can and must do.  Perhaps that comes as a nasty surprise to people who think that the purpose of public office is to tell everybody else what to do.  If so, then perhaps we need a re-education program for public officials.  

The rationale that public officials are telling the people what to do in order to protect them is really thin, if not on the verge of resembling the parent who locks the children in the closet to protect them from falling down the stairs.  See what I'm getting at?

seashell wrote "Moyers had one of the most interesting and intriguing shows I've ever seen.  His second guest was Shelby Steele, . . ."

Is this how far we've come?  Quoting the insight of Shelby Steele?  You can read about Steele, who has also appeared as a guest of radio talk show host Laura Ingraham, in Black Commentator Editor Margaret Kimberly's article, excerpted below:

"Shelby Steele is a well known black conservative, a fellow at the Hoover Institution, a leading right wing think tank. Steele has made a lucrative career for himself by lambasting black people and praising white people. He says that racism is all in the past, that all is right with the world and it is up to black people to admit it and stop complaining.

"Recently on the opinion pages of the Wall Street Journal Steele outdid himself. Steele lamented that white people just aren’t as vicious as they used to be. He believes that the legacy of slavery, segregation and American imperialism left a terrible legacy on white people. Of course, the worst impact was on the oppressed and subjugated, but Steele isn’t very worried about the legacy the past left on them.

"According to Steele, ever since World War II the U.S. just doesn’t mistreat brown skinned people the way it used to. He says that white people just feel too guilty and don’t utilize sufficient vigor when blowing countries to bits. Steele claims that, 'Certainly since Vietnam, America has increasingly practiced a policy of minimalism and restraint in war.'

" . . .

"Steele’s theory must seem very strange to Iraqi residents of Fallujah, a city that was destroyed by the U.S. military. American troops fired on ambulances in Fallujah. There was certainly no restraint in that doomed city. His theory must seem odd to the victims at Guantanamo, who have been imprisoned for up to five years without being charged. The victims of America’s policy of rendition to secret prisons must be similarly intrigued by Steel’s assertions.

" . . . .

"The Wall Street Journal and Steele have had a long running love affair. In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and the onslaught of federal government inaction that created so much suffering, Steele used the Journal to say that he was ashamed of black people in New Orleans. “Today it has to be conceded that whites have made more progress against their shame of racism than we blacks have made against our shame of inferiority.”

"Is Steele ashamed that his government did not do its job and strengthen the levee system? Is he ashamed that the banana republicanization of America eviscerated FEMA and other agencies? Is he ashamed that his government exiled thousands of people to far away places and refuses to rebuild their city?

"No, Steele is just ashamed of the black poor. Poverty is all their fault and even if a natural disaster occurs they are to blame for their circumstances." 

"i AM WHO AM.  Isn't that what Yaweh asserts?"

Isn't that what Pop-eye asserts?

:)))) 

Morning Folks:

Tom, thanks for the bio of Steele.  I know it's important that we not only look at what is said, but who says it, and what the perspective of that person is.  Who does the person hang out with?  What stances has he taken in the past. Which ox does he gore?

Some points made last night by the candidates' representatives:

Bill Winter, ran against Tancredo in the last election, was a marine for ten years, is presently an assistant district attorney in Denver - for Obama:

1. Obama is bringing in young people and independents. (When 50 percent of the Americans don't vote, then special interests fill the gap, and we need to convince Americans to vote.)

2. Obama's philosophy of bringing people together: What good does it do to spit our rage?

3. Obama's Blueprint for Change-go to the website and read it. All change requires a leap of faith.

4. The Bush Administration had the most experience of any in our history.

5. Obama stated back in 2003 he was opposed to stupid wars and the war in Iraq.

6. The elected President will tell us and the world what kind of country we are. Obama wants to lead by greatness instead of Military bullying.

John  Edwards: ( I didn't get the name down of his representative, but he has followed John Edwards for years and was profoundly moved by him.  He also spoke about God finding a way for him and other God references, which the other candidates reps didn't do.)

1. Stood up to the Jesse Helms attack machine.

2. He never to PAC money.

3. This is a personal campaing for him, From the first and through the Kerry/Edwards campaign he speaks for the poor.  There are now 4 million more people below the poverty line: 37 million.

4. He has a vision of politics for people who have no voice.

5. (Here is where I heard an Edwards/Obama ticket mentioned, much like the young Clinton/Gored ticket.

Hillary Clinton: (Senator Stan Gordan, the president of the Colorado Senate spoke for Hilllary.  He was evidently recruited at the last moment.  He indicated that he would also vote for the other candidates. His perspective was that each of the candidates was worthy and would serve this country well.)

1. Her priorities are Iraq, global Warming, and Health Care.  

2. She has worked all her life for kids mainly and education.

3. There have been few people who have withstood the barage of Rush Limbaugh type ridicule and criticism, and the fact that she ran for the Senate and has served her constituents well and worked across party lines is something to be proud of.

Okay,

Next post after coffee, I'll show how the reps answered the questions.

By the way, and I am remiss in this, we should all go to the websites of the canididates and see where they actually stand. It's awfully easy to select a candidate on the factors that appeal to us as individuals and be ignorant of what the other candidates say about the same factors.

Also, the Kucinich person came late to the meeting, so will address his points next. 

"4. The Bush Administration had the most experience of any in our history."

Thanks for the plain, painful truth.  Looking forward to the rest of your posts. 

Back for a few seconds ...

********
104. {...] By the way, and I am remiss in this, we should all go to the websites of the canididates and see where they actually stand. It's awfully easy to select a candidate on the factors that appeal to us as individuals and be ignorant of what the other candidates say about the same factors. [...]

******
Hi, Pat. That is exactly what I did this morning in relation to Gitmo and the like. I know that these are not pressing concerns for many Americans, who have a real struggle just to get from one day to the next.

But Gitmo, Bagram and their ilk are just too close to the kind of Gestapo detention centers (one step removed from concentration camps) that we have for generations criticized ordinary Germans for not paying attention to.

Where is our own moral high ground right now?

While it was encouraging to read that most Dem candidates at least recognized the problems as issues for their campaigns, it was discouraging to see that few actually had a plan to address them. Of those who did identify the problems, JRE had the most comprehensive things to say that appeared not to be mere lip service.

************
And before Sitka bashes me (LOL & ducks), I would ask him to please take a look for himself. I intend to do a comparison of other issues as well.

What most surprised me was Hillary's straight-from-AIPAC's line (will the real Hillary please stand up because if that is indeed she, I am really disappointed in her?) and the fact that Obama felt that he had to have a whole separate issue on faith. For me, all that we need to know about faith is that freedom of (or from) religion is a constitutional right and that otherwise religion is, and should be, a private matter. Period.

Hi, sitting at my desk with coffee, sorry for the typos.  I think it's all my fingers' fault. They just type letters without waiting for each other in correct order.

Tom Gordon is the President of the Colorado Senate.  John Edwards has never taken (took) PAC money.

Comment from Senator Gordon: "Republicans don't believe in Evolution because they haven't seen very much of it among them."

 A man named Mark (wither Veener or Beener-was at the back of the room and couldn't distinguish) who is running for office said this about Kucinich:

1.He opposed the war in Iraq. Will get us out of Iraq immediately.

2. He supports the trooops.

3. He introduced a single payer health care bill, HB676 in the House.

4. He wants a green economy and we need something like the New Deal to bring it about.

(Betsy Markey said that we already have the technology available for electric cars. But, we will have to use government incentives. (My words.))

5. He has lived his integrity, supports public financing of campaigns, wants the big money out. 

Hi Judy,

As always, apapreciate your posts.  You bring an important perspective to the blog.  I would be too lazy to hunt up the European news and perspective, partly because my eyes tire reading on a computer screen.  I really want to try out the Amazon Kindle and the Sony electronic reader to see if they are acceptable to my old English teacher eyes.

Okay, the questions:

1. Economy is going down the tubes. What's the remedy?

Obama: repeal the Bush tax cuts, support the middle class tax payer with tax remedies, go after the predatory lenders and give relief to home owners in the mortgage criis "We have a responsibility in our society for the weakest memers), negotiate fair trade with protections for workers, human rights, and the environment, and address immigration.

Edwards: He is against  free trade agreements (no major union and none of the Peruvian farmers were part of this latest trade agreement), NAFTA was the worst legislation in the Clinton Administration, focus on jobs in this country.  Even the  Republicans don't like free trade.

Clinton: We need to focus on renewable and alternative energy and conservation.  

The Kucinich representative wasn't here for the question. 

Will pause for a bit.

2. What about the petroleum crisis in 2010-2013 when we will have extracted half of the planet's supply?

These are my notes: The Clintons talked and did nothing.  Edwards has just been endorsed by the Friends of the Earth and says no more nuclear or coal fuel. Obama talked of global warming and said that our national security has been dependent on oil.  We must get off it, break the tyranny of oil and achieve energy independence.

(Because I was there to help with the setup and stood at the back of the room, I didn't get to ask my question about coal gassification and nuclear energy with respect to Obama, though Obama's representative said that he has addressed energy independence.) 

Will pause again.  I don't want to dominate. BBL

68.

JudyforDean

Only problem BO promised the same things for his seat in the US Senate and didn't deliver. The "dumb war in Iraq" and the "injustices of our rights with the Patriot Act". For the 2 years he was in the Senate, before he decided to run for President, he continued the war, never writing, co sponsoring or EVEN VOTE to end the war when FINALLY Feingold's Bill was co Sponsored by Kerry. He voted AGAINST it. And then, he ALSO voted to Reauthorize the Patriot Act.

seashell, great find on "Now" with Mr. Steele and Moyers.


69. Monica wrote: Maybe he (Edwards) needs to emphasise that he's motivated by the desire to give something back.

...now this is sad, after all the time he has been up in New Hampshire, that you didn't hear that he did address this. He has said this is "not personal", "it's not about [him], this is about keeping the promise to America" and the issues he then lists.


...one here might find it enlightening. It may be a good sign indeed that JK endorsed BO. The Edwards team admitted when interview after the endorsement, that John Edwards did not ask Kerry for his endorsement. Kinda' like Lierberman admitting when he endorsed McCain, "none of the Democrats asked for it". LOL

...fears of the economy tanking....I actually heard the term depression yesterday.....aren't we thrilled that the dem candidate being pushed on us by the Conservatives and CM is talking about giving tax cuts? ... I am left speechless with that one a lone.

Barak has had seven (7) opportunities to vote for womens right to choose.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would trust him to appoint Supreme Court Justices that view Roe v/ Wade as settled law. I can't see that as being a reason to vote against him, though there might be others.

+++

Phil -

Indeed.

Obama can't seem to placate the far left (above, your balanced responding to the sliming of Obama by mz*little's comment) nor the far right (see article below). Thanks Phil for your comment and your reasonableness.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080111/30813_Pro-Family_Groups_Blast_Obama_as_'Extremely_Liberal'.htm

WASHINGTON – Two of the nation’s most prominent family values organizations lambasted rising Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama as “extremely” liberal and “no friend” to values voters during an analysis this week of the New Hampshire primary.

Minnery, FOTF’s vice president of public policy, pointed out that Obama is against the federal marriage amendment that would define marriage as between a man and a woman; is against the abstinence program in sex education and for the distribution of condoms; supports a strong civil union law that would give all benefits to gay partners; supports embryonic stem cell research; and is in favor of permitting minors to cross state borders for abortion.

“This man is no friend to anything that we hold dear,” Minnery declared during the FOTF Citizenlink special.

“Without question,” chimed in Tony Perkins, president of the influential Washington-based Family Research Council.

...

Looks like the Clintons are continuing their dirty politics.  This trick seems to me to be something the republicans would use.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/jan/12/voting-stripa-no-no-suit-says/

Pat, Obamas "bringing people together" is that he doesn't believe in idealism and he believes we should "compromise" and have the Corporations at the table for negotiating. Uh, hellllooooo, that's what we have with these NeoCons. Corporations at their table setting our agenda. That's not my idea of governing for the people.

70.

JudyforDean
Sat, 01/12/08

66. Thanks for setting the record straight. But the mere fact that BO felt that he had to address the issue of faith specifically sends up lots of red flags to my mind.

-----

I think Obama had to address the issue of faith b/c everyone thought he was a Muslim, thanks largely to Faux News and his middle name. Of course, it would be great if we could just elect a Muslim on the merits like anyone else. But there was that event on 9/11.

Daniel thanks for video on Obama church and also the article about Alzheimer's which I think I saw somewhere prolly KOS. I think Obama's church looks like a 'happening' place and the 'blackness' of it doesn't bother me and I'm one raised in racism. The Alzheimer's article gives hope that they will find a cure or at least a remedy -- it is a huge fear to me to lose my mind before I lose my body -- I believe if I were diagnosed with Alzheimer's I would find a way to off myself.

I know you all especially Sitka have been waiting for the answer to the trivia quiz. The university that tried unsuccessfully to award a doctorate in music to J Brahms was Cambridge. With credit to WUFT FM for the quiz and their 'giveaway and request program.'

Well, off to do some yard work (trying to set up a wooden gravemarker in my backyard for my cat Coleen who died on this past Mon evening).

ciao and thanks for all your condolences (been a tough week for my wife and I to lose a member of the family we had close to 14 years)

113. Real estate prices are dropping very quickly around here. Our neighbor has had their home on the market for nine months - just took it off yesterday. My husband said yesterday that he wishes we would have rented for a few months. Oh well...hope you got a good price on your home, Linda.

Thank you for your comments here Pat.

102.

 I have Bill Moyers programmed into my satellite timer so it comes up automatically.

I realized last night after just three minutes that he had on a Clinton pundit. Moyers having pundits is degrading to him. I turned it off and glad I did after seeing Steel was on too.

Most of Moyers recent shows have been very disappointing, though I don't believe it is anything he has much control over, given the director of PBS.

In any event, Moyers could at least salvage some of his credentials by refusing to have pundits on who have ulterior motives, or by simply leaving the show. I won't be watching it any longer.

Bill Maher has returned to HBO and had a pretty darn good show last night if one was able to mute out  the incessent remarks made by Tony Snow.

PS!!

'confidential' lol to Flagal and Joan. Do you folks have opinions on the Constitutional amendment we vote on on the 29th? I'm inclined to vote 'for' since it looks like it would greatly reduce my tax bill.

11:21 AM ET

115

Linda, tried your cornbread recipe, it is delicious.

Whose to say having the corps around the table is a bad thing?  Whose saids they will dictate?  That is only your opinion.  Doesn't mean it is true or will happen.  I like the idea.  I'm tired of all the division in this country.  We need to come together.

Of course we could elect Clinton who seems determined to keep the country divided.  Or Edwards who with his populist message will cause a greater rift.

My opinion only.

70.

But the mere fact that BO felt that he had to address the issue of faith specifically sends up lots of red flags to my mind.

Judy,

Obama has been addressing the issue of faith in one way or another in just about every speech he has given -- nothing new there.

I don't know what "red flags" this would send up to you. He has been a community leader for decades operating through Christian religious organizations in Chicago.

Faith is nothing new to Obama so it seems appropriate to me that he use it to his advantgeou whenever possible. Howard Dean as DNC chair has been saying that for three years.

Clinton can only address religion by saying "she prays everyday" which tells us nothing and sounds very hollow and patronizing at best. When Obama speaks of faith, he speaks from the heart and from the knowledge that it is a huge issue right now in this country.

I'm curious as to why does this being up red flags for you?

112.  There's a difference between "I want to do something FOR America," which is the traditional Democratic line, and "I want to give something back for all the advantages I've enjoyed."

rd, my heart goes out to you.  Hope you feel better soon.

Was very disappointed in the last thread I believe it was when somebody, don't know who it was nor do I care, called Obama slime.  Totally uncalled for. As far as I can see only rd commented on it.  Since when do people on this  blog allow that to be said about a kind, decent, human being.  Yes indeed this blog has changed.

114.  These "christians" need to be confronted with the conclusion that they obviously don't subscribe to self-control.

rae hart

FYI

>

what a slime.

>

Hoho, that's a good deal too harsh, Little*Mz.

--------

 I met a Postal worker, today, here in Massachusetts - the state Mitt Romney was once Governor (DFA Listed Deval Patrick now holds that Office), who said he would never vote for Mitt, because of something Mitt's wife said five years ago.

Seems Mrs Romney answered a question saying, "Oh we had a rough go of it during Mitt's University days...we had to cash in some of the bonds mitt's father gave Mitt."

Tough times, indeed!  Too bad, they couldn't manage on the interest.  Poor Mitt.

Shame on whoever it was posting remarks about Obama's church.  Here is a very good article from Rev John Thomas defending his church.  They have been getting hate emails. The article also discusses the church.

Thomas denounces smear campaign against UCC’s largest congregation

http://www.ucc.org/news/thomas-denounces-smear-1.html

I thought in America we had freedom of religion.

Since when do people on this  blog allow that to be said about a kind, decent, human being.

>

rae hart, when you or anyone has the gumption to speak out, then that you hope for is realized.  BTW, Mz*Little is a sweetheart. 

Okay back for a bit.

The third question was about education. How do we make college more affordable? One campaign worker has just earned her masters degree.  She is $65,000 in debt.  That's horrendous to me.  I earned my BA in 1965 and was about $12,000 in debt.  My first teaching salary was $5100.

Well, these were the answers:

Edwards: His Poverty Work Center brings students from families who could never affod college to a program wherein they work ten hours a week and they have their tuition in college paid for.  Wade Norris, (just found his name in my notes, the representative for Edwards) said go to ultimatepolitics.net for more information.  

Edwards wants to see all students have the opportunitiy for a college education, and his goal is College for Everyone.  (As Phil indicated the other day, Edwards is already sponsoring through his  foundation and his proposals this kind of approach.)

It was pointed out that the great material prosperity that began in the Fifties was largely the work of those veterans who earned their college education on the GI Bill as the federal government supported them in returning to civilian life.  I think we all know that veterans do not receive anywhere near the equivalent supports towards a college eduation today.

Obama: He has propsed an American Opportunity Tax Credit of $4000 for parents with children in college.  He also wants to work with universities to bring down the cost of education.  It was remarked that the next generations will inherit what our generation hasn't done right.

Clinton: She wants to add to the Veterans Bill and put $50 billion more federal dollars into science and math education.  

It was pointed out that Colorado is 48th in money support of higher education.  The Tabor Amendment which reduces tax revenues has done terrible damage to higher education in Colorado.  

Someone added that Republicans don't want to fund education for other people's children, and that has been true (generally) in my experience in the last 30 years in Colorado.  

Finally, Obama also wants to reward teachers.  The "Reganoids" as someone called them, have demeaned teachers and made the profession itself unattractive and a source of derision.

Will take another break. 

I thought in America we had freedom of religion.

>

well, my experience has been more like

"my" religion is better than "your" religion.

Linda wrote "Obamas 'bringing people together' is that he doesn't believe in idealism and he believes we should 'compromise' and have the Corporations at the table for negotiating."

As I wrote about at length on a previous thread, compromising is essential to lawmaking.  If there was any reason to find it offensive, it would be because a legislator, for example, wouldn't resist or show concern about or ceding war authority to a president set on invading a foreign sovereign and toppling the existing regime.

It's no reflection on you, but it is really impossible to accept that you, of all people, would be particularly informed of whether Obama believes or doesn't believe in idealism.

Quick note: awful, ugly rumors are already in the pipeline.  I heard a few of them last night, especially about Obama.  There's another about Starbucks: supposedly a soldier in Iraq wrote Starbucks a letter saying how much he missed the coffee, and received a nasty reply saying that Starbucks didn't support the war or the troops.

All Rush LImbaugh-type ugliness that we as humans who love gossip thrive on.  I'm hoping we won't engage in that kind of, yes, destructiveness here, and that people will counter it if it occurs.

These candidates are all outstanding, and they are also human.  No one can possibly be prepared for the job of President.  It's an impossible job.  As someone said, just look at the Before and After photographs of those who have been President.  Why anyone would want the job is mystifying.

That Mona Charen in her column yesterday inferred that Obama was not only not patriotic, but actually subversive, is something that makes me shudder.

Finally, in the February issue of Harpers, an outstanding essay about the part, the major part, nuclear weapons plays in our foreign policy and how the War in (on) Iraq plays into that is worth reading.  It is the first essay where Lewis Lapham usually writes. 

rae wrote "Was very disappointed in the last thread I believe it was when somebody, don't know who it was nor do I care, called Obama slime.  Totally uncalled for. As far as I can see only rd commented on it."

There were others. 

Barak has had seven (7) opportunities to vote for womens right to choose.  Each time, he chose to vote "Present" therefore being able to walk the tight rope and tell each side that he didn't vote for the other.  what a slime.  

This is the post you are referring to.

Mz*Little is also posting "misinformation" to be nice.

Obama's record shows he has supported NARAL as well as Planned Parenthood for years. Here is the Obama record for supporting NARAL and Planned Parenthood, keeping in mind that a "Present" vote is not a supportive vote, therefore he voted YES, not Present as Ms Little contends:

When people intentionally post false information here, they need to be brought to task for it.

That is not to say that some people often have been led to believe something which may not be true. But to write a comment that gives figures, etc. intending to give the impression that they have all the facts, does not indicate to me that this person was in any way led astray.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

When people intentionally post false information here, they need to be brought to task for it.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Joan,

My simple mathematical formula for predicting Presidntial winners involves crowne royale, a duthc masters honey flavoured cigar and several games of on line backgammon.........

hmmm...

But, contrary to Solomon's suggestion, while Obama voted "present," he reportedly did not "decline[]" to take a position on the legislation -- rather, his "present" votes were part of a strategy he had worked out with the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council in an effort to defeat the bill, according to the Council's CEO, Pam Sutherland. As ABCNews.com reported on July 17, Obama voted "present" on the two parental notification bills in 2001 "with the explicit support of the president and CEO of Illinois Planned Parenthood Council." The Chicago Sun-Times further reported on December 4 that the "goal" of the strategy was "to entice moderate Republicans and Democrats to also vote present, helping to defeat the bills." The article quoted Sutherland saying of Obama, "The poor guy is getting all this heat for a strategy we, the pro-choice community, did."

http://mediamatters.org/items/200712140004

Just a last post for a while, and will continue later on in the day with the questions for the candidates and the answers from their representatives.

 How will the candidate stop the war?

Edwards: three days before the Iowa caucus had the courage to say he would stop the war ten months after acceding to the office of President.

Obama has said it would be 16 months.  His reasoning is that the military can't move that fast, and we have a responsibility not to leave the country in chaos.  He would on day 1 of his presidency institute diplomacy, humanitarian aid, work on infrastructure, and cooperation with other nations to achieve this.

As Tim Winter, the Marine who was Obama's representative said, "When you are in the military, you can't  just pull up and leave.  They will shoot you."  Also, we don't want to leave our stuff behind.

(My thought , that it was very astute of Obama's campaign to have Tim as their represenstative.)

Clinton is psychologically in the same place as Edwards and Obama.  She will start the evacuation in 60 days  after she is president.  She insists that we also have to pay the costs of the returning veterans, and that is going to be high as well.

Kucinich will take the troops out of Iraq and pay the cost of their care.

I'll continue with these questions and answers until I've posted all of them.  It may take a while. 

Media Matters deconstructed the Clintonian IL Planned Parenthood smear.

Google, people.

http://tinyurl.com/yo4njs

Voting "present" on particularly disgusting legislation is occasionally a positive strategy.

Re: "faith".

Freedom FROM "religion," folks.

So-called "faith-based initiatives" have creamed billions out of my tax dollars (fmi, welfare deform privatization of block grant monies to the states, & "marriage promotion").

Nada.

Religion never belongs in the public governmental sphere & revenue stream FUNDING (nor do any other superstitious behaviors & irrational faulty belief systems--including the suspended belief in the tooth fairy).

Strictly personal.

S.C. & this weekend's "debate" will elicit that pandering hooey, also (along w/race, class, & sexism).

Sick and tired of it all.

Pity the thousands of unionists at last Tuesday's state Democratic convention who chanted her name, and the hundreds of retired Teamsters at Thursday's luncheon in midtown who had interrupted their Founder's Day meal to hear the corporate litigator turned union-loving Democrat deliver a campaign speech.

They would have dropped their forks if they had heard that Hillary served for six years on the board of the dreaded Wal-Mart, a union-busting behemoth. If they had learned the details of her friendship with Wal-Mart, they might have lost their lunches.

She didn't mention Wal-Mart. Instead, she praised the Teamsters and other unionized workers as a "key movement in creating the middle class," and she pledged to "prevent anyone from turning the clock back," reminding them that "the Republicans are trying to do away with collective bargaining."

As she was leaving the dais, she ignored a reporter's question about Wal-Mart, and she ignored it again when she strode by reporters in the hotel lobby.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0021,harkavy,15052,5.html

How will the candidate stop the war?

>

IMO, the needs to win the general election, and then discuss the question with his Joint Chiefs.  What ever course is set begins there.

Imn2Ppaine wrote "BTW, Mz*Little is a sweetheart." 

She's the salt of the earth but the Obama disinformation dissemination campaign in full progress here is insulting.  It's as if the assumption is readers here lack critical faculties.

r*

sorry about you cat.  I once had a cat pass on.  It was difficult from the moment I realized there was no longer any animation and she was gone.  Still tugs.  Digging her grave was next to impossible, and not just for the rocky southeastern Massachusetts soil.  crying is good for the body and soul.

Tom wrote, "the Obama disinformation dissemination campaign in full progress here is insulting."

> Well, I just chalk it up to ignorance sometimes.  "Thinking is not knowing"

142.

Jo,

Obama did NOT vote "Present" as Mz Little contended.

He voted YES, otherwise he would have not gotten the "Support" label from NARAL and Planned Parenthood.

~~~~~~~~~~

How easily bad information gets taken for the truth is what is wrong with this country. Guess it all comes down to GWB. It's OK to lie as long as you get what you want.

OT The Live from the Met today is Verdi's (I think) Macbeth. Not today but in May Rene Pape swoon will be singing Banquo and I have a (definitely not front row center) ticket.

rh......130

I thought in this country we had freedom of religion.

____________

Yes, and add to that freedom for and from. Add the freedom from being proselytized. Churches become religious corporations and take on the characteristics of gov'ts who want to take control of everything. Then there are more wars.

Imn2Paine -

Thanks (and to rae and others here earlier on who posted condolences, since Tuesday).  The feelings of my wife and I are still too raw to ever think about getting another cat (maybe down the road we'll think differently).

Well, to help get my mind off it for a short time, I'll be watching the Pats tonight on tv or, if my wife (she's not into football, she is a big futbol [aka soccer] fan, as am I, but I like American football too) has control over the remote tonight, I'll be tracking the Pats results online, starting 8 pm EST in Foxboro, MA.

I expect the JAX to really give the Pats "a run for their money" -- IMO that's how good Jacksonville is as a team, especially their quarterback.

144.

I share your frustration. However, many Americans are very religious in their own ways and we have no right to tell them not to be.

We can't have it in the government, but to tell supporters that you yourself as a candidate have religion in their lives simply tells voters who they are voting for, not what they will be as a president.

Of course, a candidate like Huckabee, a confessed radical religious fanatic/preacher is not to be trusted with a presidency.

rd

I have been following your dealing with your cat's death. I send you my sympathy.

I am an avid animal lover. Lizards are happily living on our deck, coons, possums, bears and foxes visit here nightly

A pet however is part of the family and sometimes their deaths are just as difficult to deal with as a human member. We will not have any more pets for this reason, we have only an entertaining Amazon parrot now who is 24 years old. Their deaths have become to difficult for hubby and I.

155.

Thanks Joan for your kind words (what with my cat's death and then the results of the NH primary, it's been a tough week for my wife and I).

Joan 150 - that clip was from mediamatters debunking of the pp fiasco - did you read it?  per their request he voted present, which was a factor in why he got the high rating, not for voting yes.

Why Howard is first.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1752 

Pat thanks so much for this great information - the blog has been a pleasure to read this morning. That is also because of those who are straightening out Barb's (Mz Little and I agree, she is a good person) mis-informed post.

Also, thanks about the info about Mr. Steele who appeared on Moyers. I saw that and I immediately looked up his bio online - what a creep,

Maher was excellent last night but I fell asleep toward the end. Catch a rerun - so glad he's back!

I've never seen so much excuse making on an Elected Representative not voting and supporting the issue is wasn't voting on.

If you even look at Joan's posts from IPPC the Senator received a "0"...that is a "zero" rating on a 3 year period. 1997-2000 and a 50 in 2002. The first year and the last year before running for the Senate he received a 100 on his voting record. So doesn't it boil down to how many Bills came up and what the Bills were that were voted on?

The fact boils down to him not casting a clear vote in support of many important issues. Period. When it first came out, he said he had a deal to vote "present" and that would protect him. They quickly came out and said "no, there was no such deal". But then he got someone else to come out and declare, it was a way to keep good standing. Uh, yeah, no sh!t. He can't be claimed for voting NO...and he can't be claimed as voting YES EITHER. Period.

I remember hearing how he would co incidentally be out of town so many times that a Bill would come up also, where then you had a "no vote" , not even the "present".

I'd like to see that he actually supported what he claims. If he can't even vote to agree with the position, how does that make him a supporter of that position? It doesn't. But hay, I guess you all think that Joe really meant that he wanted to bring an end to the war in Iraq, even though he was voting against it. How is someone supposed to make the decisions and policy when they can't commit to a position with even just a vote?

148,
Not quite true. The military is under civilian control and are planning their exit already. The way out is political and involves a smaller and smaller footprint.
BO is using the brigade or so per month plan that calls for the equipment to washed and sealed before shipment. There are very limited wash and seal facilities. Understand, a good chuck of military stores are in Iraq (tanks, guns, etc). They need to be brought back if in servicable condition or destroyed. A lot of non-military equipment should be left behind (i.e. appliances) should be left behind.
HC says blah blahs about leaving Iraq responsibly whatever that means. JE starts withdrawing in six months
The broader and more important question is how do we get there? The Sunnis hate al Queda more then us so we armed them so they can do the fighting. The Shiites are seeing an armed group that is against them. Al Sadar who is head of one of the Shiatte groups is laying low for a while and quietly getting stronger. The Iranian Iraqis Shiattes are plotting their takeover. The green-zone folks are huddled in their bunkers and the Kurds have already bolted. We gotta start cutting some deals.
Let the Kurds fly. We can't do anything about it anyway. Work with Iran to get the Shiattes they control to ease off. That leaves the al Sadar Shiites, the Sunni, and Maliki. Get them to work a power sharing deal. Hold new elections and not the phony purple-finger sham as before. Maliki has to do this if any part of the government survives. Do this now to try and get stability started at the same time start pulling troops out.
We promise to abandon the embassy, all bases and any oil demands and pay all reconstruction costs.
Al Queda handed Bush another gift by overstating their influence with the Sunni and got caught. The smart move is to take advantage of the lull to build a structure in place that has a chance to survive. Either way we have to leave but we should try to leave the country in as good as shape as possible.

Does anyone know if this is true?  In NH you do not have to be a resident to vote in the primaries?  You can simply state that you intend to move there, no previous registration, and then vote the same day.

On numerous blogs it is being reported that buses from Massachusetts, Maine, New York and other neighboring states were seen near the polling places.

Or is this someone's conspiracy theroy?

seashell :-)
Sat, 01/12/08

Seashell, I also saw the Moyers interview with Shelby Steele.  I think Steele misses the point and sounds old school racist himself.  Steele talks about Obama making deals with whites and alienating blacks.  He calls Obama a "bargainer."

The point is, it's time for those of us who are capable to transcend race, and that white people feel good about that too.

What's wrong with that?

The above paraphrases Scott Ritter...
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/2007...

It is the only thing that makes sense so far where we leave and the killing stops.

While waiting for football to come on today, you might want to take a look at the best surfing competition going on NOW at beautiful Pillar Point (Princeton by the Sea) on the northern CA coast

http://www.myspace.com/maverickssurf

They are discouraging us from going down there so this is the best seat in the house.

It’s Not Just ‘Ayes’ and ‘Nays’: Obama’s Votes in Illinois Echo

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/us/politics/20obama.html?_r=3&hp=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

My Maine Coon cat, Missy died in 1983.

I still carry her photo in my wallet. She had her own designated DR chair next to me; and I hand fed her people food (she had her favorites--or would simply curl up & be w/alongside us while we ate).

One of my special dogs (who died in 2001) still evokes memories when I open the left rear passenger car door--she always entered onto a special blanket; and went everywhere w/me (unless it was too hot, or too cold).

During the Ice Storm of 1998, we had one Maine Coon cat; our dog, Honey (see above), and two guinea pigs on, or *in* bed w/us (for four looooooooong days & nights). In a 10' X 12' BR.

We stayed very warm; and the pigs were in heaven w/all of the additional personalized attention. ...all were part of the familial unit (and plenty of beach towels and blankets helped).

I have decorative urns for various deceased pets within a few feet of my computer station--as well as photos of them throughout my immediate living space. I've amassed quite the gallery of furry kids!

Kiah snoozes in the rocking chair (it's now his!) 4 ft. away as I type.

Grieving one's loved pets is part and parcel of what it means to be human & empathic.

Caring for their remains is only the first step of a process, rdorgan.

Be gentle w/yourselves, as it triggers other life trajectory losses, too.

As the years move along, you'll find yourself fondly remembering Coleen as you go about ordinary daily tasks; & during different anniversary moments.

It's all perfectly normal.



It's all part of the deal; and is perfectly normal.

Illinois NOW for Clinton, with a swipe at Obama

http://weblogs.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/blog/2007/12/illinois_now_for_clinton_with.html#more

The point is, it's time for those of us who are capable to transcend race, and that white people feel good about that too.

What's wrong with that?

The problem is that, as a nation, we have a long way to go to "transcend race", and pretending we have is not only disingenuous, but dangerous.

Obama is repeating the words of another spellbinding orator of 75 years ago:

His "One People, One Nation" is a direct translation of "Ein Volk, Ein Reich", and in the case of America, it is not true.

Edwards view that there are 2 nations, steadily diverging under Bush, is much closer to reality than Obama's bogus slogan.

Obama Abortion Dodges Blessed by Planned Parenthood

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/07/obama-abortion-.html

142.

rae

WHO CAN REGISTER
New Hampshire residents who will be 18 years of age or older on election day, and a United States Citizen, may register with the town or city clerk where they live up to 10 days before any election. You may also register on election day at the polling place. The town clerk's office can inform voters of what proof of qualification they should bring to register.

There is no minimum period of time you are required to have lived in the state before being allowed to register.  You may register as soon as you move into your new community.

http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/redir?src=websearch&requestId=ffdcf0eaecff22bf&clickedItemRank=1&userQuery=new+hampshire+state+voting+laws&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sos.nh.gov%2Fvote.htm&title=How+to+Register+to+Vote&moduleId=matchingsites.jsp.M&clickedItemPageRanking=1&clickedItemPage=1&clickedItemDescription=WebResults

All reads rather ambiguous to me.

I don't see Obama present votes as a problem.  If he says it's a protest vote and it's a common thing in the Illinois legis, I don't see the big deal.

The problem is that, as a nation, we have a long way to go to "transcend race"

As Howard says "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."

As progressives we must lead, not cave in to the ignorance and fear of others.

My Maine Coon cat, Missy died in 1983.

Mainefem, we had a wonderful Maine Coon Cat named Morte, who died 3 years ago at the age of only 11. He was a real joy. He would come to the defense of our Silky Terrier when a larger dog threatened her, and every afternoon when we walked the dogs on leash, he would tag along.

We still miss him

Disparagement of Obama votes doesn't hold up

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2007/12/disparagement-o.html

175

Good quote from the article you posted, rae

"Anyone who says that a `present' vote necessarily reflects that someone is ducking an issue doesn't understand the first thing about legislative strategy," said Pam Sutherland, Planned Parenthood's chief lobbyist in Springfield. "People who work down here and know how things get done are hearing these accusations and saying, `huh?'"

In practical terms, a "present" vote is as good as a "no" vote because the law requires a bill to win the votes of a majority of the lawmakers in either body, not simply a majority of those voting.

Pam Sutherland, PP LOBBYIST!

Not always a bad thing??

As Howard says "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."

Someone else said that before Howard--Confucious?

I don't quarrel with race transcendence as a goal. But to say we're there, just so whites can "feel good" is completely dishonest.

Your post is total BS.

169.

The problem is that, as a nation, we have a long way to go to "transcend race", and pretending we have is not only disingenuous, but dangerous.

I hardly see things that way at all.

It is views and statements like this that continue keep this country divided in some areas of our country.

Where I live, everyone is welcome without exception -- we live, work and play together. It's not phony, it's real. My neighbors are Hispanic, I swim and exercise with blacks at the "Y" and some are friends of mine who live two blocks away.

It's strange that Florida is the leader in this area, perhaps because of the great influx of people from every nation. Florida has not been a member of the "south" states like Georgia and Mississippi for many decades. I know, I have lived here and watched it grow to what it is today and what probably is the status in the majority of this country.

In practical terms, a "present" vote is as good as a "no" vote because the law requires a bill to win the votes of a majority of the lawmakers in either body, not simply a majority of those voting.

Then why not just vote no?

169

Ooops I was referring to above post as total BS.

I'm going to go for a run and calm down.

Right--sounds like a really good plan.  Next President needs to disagregate this department:

DHS Looks to Outsource Data Center
The Homeland Security Department is likely to award a contract in the next couple of months to outsource its data center operations, with the expectation that the department will receive up-to-date applications and services faster than if it owned the center.

Last year, DHS began consolidating its 18 data centers into two mega-centers. The department first transitioned systems to a primary data center called the National Center for Critical Information Processing and Storage, which is based at NASA's Stennis Space Center in Mississippi. The second facility will serve as a backup.

DHS wants to outsource the entire operation to the private sector. According to a source who asked not to be identified because he is involved in the bidding as a subcontractor, DHS is seeking a seven-and-a-half-year contract. The department intends to make the shift to a contractor-furnished model over five years.

Ever since DHS was created in 2002 by merging 22 disparate agencies, the lack of a common computer platform has hobbled information-sharing between offices. DHS spokesman Larry Orluskie said that the new approach will provide more-advanced software applications and better compatibility.

-- Jill R. Aitoro/Government Executive

CIA confirms Ventura meeting occurred

Tim Pugmire /Minnesota Public Radio | January 3, 2008

The St. Paul Pioneer Press offered a sneak peek Thursday Jesse Ventura's forthcoming book, "Don't Start the Revolution Without Me." In one excerpt, Ventura describes a post-inaugural meeting with CIA agents. He also claims a CIA operative was on the state payroll. Even a Ventura confidant is questioning the account. But the surprising revelations are at least partially true.

St. Paul, Minn. — Shortly after taking office in 1999, Jesse Ventura writes he was asked to attend a meeting at the state Capitol. He says 23 CIA agents were waiting for him in a basement conference room.

Ventura's account of the meeting is detailed in an advance copy of his new book, which is scheduled for release in April. He claims the agents' questions focused how he campaigned for office, or as Ventura writes "how had the independent wrestler candidate pulled this off?"

Memories can fade after nine years, but a meeting with 23 CIA agents is something that might stand out. John Wodele, who served as Ventura's director of communications, said the meeting was news to him.

"I don't recall any indication that the governor had met with a CIA agent," he said. "Now, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. But I was not aware of it.

Turns out there actually was a Ventura meeting with the CIA in 1999. CIA Spokesman George Little confirmed the event today in a written statement, but he offered few details.

Little said that "on occasion CIA officers meet with senior state government officials, as they did in this case, to discuss issues of mutual interest."

Little shed less light on another revelation in Ventura's book. The former Independence Party governor says he was "stunned to learn that there is a CIA operative inside every state government." Ventura says the Minnesota operative was a deputy commissioner, who was working with a dual identity.

In response to a question about Ventura's claim, Little wrote, "I wouldn't think of CIA officers as being in state governments. They're federal employees."

John Wodele said it would seem unusual that a CIA agent would be working in state government.

"If that did happen, I'm not aware of it," he said. "And I guess that would be that way it should be. I think the CIA is supposed to operate that way, where directors of communication are not made aware."

CIA operations primarily focus on the collection and analysis of information about foreign threats to the United States. Domestic matters fall into the jurisdiction of the FBI.

Former Republican U.S. Sen. Dave Durenberger is questioning Ventura's claims. Durenberger, who spent eight years on the Senate intellegence committee, says he never heard of CIA operatives in state governments or agents grilling new governors.

"I cannot think of a reason why either the details of, or his personal experiences with how he got elected would do anything for understanding threats to the United States and to our national security policy presented by foreign agents," he said. "It doesn't jibe. Unless Jesse had another life that he either wrote about in this book or has yet to disclose to us prior to becoming our governor. It sort of like blows even my imagination to think of how this could be a reality."

CIA finances and personnel are classified. But Durenberger said he thinks the agency would be stretched to assign operatives to every state capitol and send 23 agents to attend the same meeting.

It's unclear whether the current administration has any dealings with the CIA. Brian McClung, a spokesman for Gov. Tim Pawlenty, said the governor talks on occasion with diplomatic, defense and intelligence officials. But he said Pawlenty does not comment on matters relating to intelligence.

John wrote "Edwards view that there are 2 nations, steadily diverging under Bush, is much closer to reality than Obama's bogus slogan."

That's just some old ad copy.  The two Americas was replaced as part of Edwards' stump speech with an appeal to the middle class after he discovered how many fewer of those in one of the Americas tended to vote in comparison to the other.

182

HJ - found in the article. Here is some of the answer - more at the link rae posted

Why would he then vote "present" instead of a resounding "no" on certain bills advanced by lawmakers opposed to abortion rights?

"To provide cover for other Democrats who were shaky on the issue in an effort to convince them not to vote `yes,'" Sutherland said. "The idea is to recruit a group to vote `present' that includes legislators who are clearly right with the issue."

Sutherland said this tactic makes the "present" vote look less like a hedge or a cop-out and more like a constitutional concern or other high-minded qualm.

She pointed to the Parental Notice of Abortion Act of 2001, a bill requiring that an adult family member be notified 48 hours in advance when a minor seeks an abortion.

Obama's "present" vote on that bill is one Hull is attacking him for in a flier decorated with rubber duckies.

Sutherland just laughs. "We also had [Democratic Senate leader] Emil Jones, [current Atty. Gen.] Lisa Madigan, Miguel del Valle, Rickey Hendon and other very strong pro-choice legislators voting `present' on that one," she said. "It was all done to pull `present' votes off the fence."

180.

Joan, I'm happy to learn that your part of Florida is racially harmonious. I live in a racially diverse neighborhood, and I'm very comfortable with my minority neighbors. Can't say the same about the white trash, but they're mostly harmless.

I see plenty of evidence for racial tensions and discrimination nationwide, however. The high unemployment, unequal opportunities, income disparity, high rate of incarceration of minorities, are there, and need to be seriously addressed, not papered over by feelgood talk of "one people, one nation."

My recipe for the economy is parts of Bubba only better. There have been boom and bust cycles before. If we want to stop the offshoring of jobs, we have to:
1 - End the incentive to do so.
2 - Let it go and create enough jobs to replace jobs loss
3 – How about both?
Because the Chinese market is so huge, China has a policy of not allowing companies to sell there unless they produce there. This created a ripe offshore location. They then supplied cheap labor, no environmental or labor standards, and supplied a lot of the start-up capital. Voila…instant job creation of relatively low skilled jobs. But the low skilled jobs begat higher skilled jobs as more and more value-added design and engineering jobs followed the manufacturing floor. India is offshoring jobs to China and China is offshoring jobs to Africa. The Philippines got into the mix. Vietnam wants a piece of the action. Soon there won’t be anything left except cleaning hotel rooms and mowing yards.
We can end the incentive by imposing a tariff on Chinese goods. There are many shouts of horrors but Paul Craig Roberts has a good analysis of why this is a good thing. The problem is not China but corporations destroying their US workforce. (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info...).
My own view is similar to Roberts but also take it to a higher step by forcing all to pay the concept of a living wage. This has been talked about by some religious leaders such as Jim Wallis. Essentially, pay enough so folks can live a life of dignity. Ambiguous but the discussion needs to go to what and how much?
How about enforcing environmental and labor rights. That sounds nice but shouldn’t we do that here first?
How about creating more jobs then we lose. The tax code should reward desired behavior. Bubba had the right idea. He gave tax credits for expanding and modernizing existing plants, building new plants, training and hiring new people. The trouble with using tax codes to boost public policy is the behavior goes away when the incentives disappear.
So more is needed. What works best is public, private and government partnerships to train people working in companies that will be there long after the carrot is removed. This always involves local ownership which guarantees local control which guarantees long-term participation. The argument against goes along the lines of the government shouldn’t be picking winners and losers. The government is not doing any such thing. Tax dollars provide seed capital and necessities such as insurance and capital subsidies to allow companies to be formed and jobs created. Bubba didn’t go far enough as the Repub Congress was more concerned with BJs in the WH then creating a long-term economy on a Dem’s watch.

Nothing ambiguous about it, Joan.

All state voting law statutes are Googlealbe, folks.

Know yours.

Maine's is equally as welcoming (our 17yr. olds can caucus if they wish now--they don't bother to do so, but they *are allowed to do so*--provided they reach majority by the Nov. general).

NH legislators are submitting something similar to ME's.

Our prisoners can vote; and we have librul absentee voting laws, too (5 weeks in advance...for any reason).

Also need some sort of photo ID (state photo ID, or driver's license), as proof of who they are.

I'm a ME Notary Public, BTW. I go by the book, so to speak.

Busloads of young people cannot possibly prove residency status to NH poll precinct wardens that quickly.

That's straight out of Rove's playbook...Rethugs never come up w/proof of voter fraud by young people, but they certainly attempt to spin it.

Most precincts allow party activist poll watchers to be on hand; and can dispute any potential voter status fraud (and/or file a complaint w/the Sec. of State's office). We always have three from each party alongside the registration area. Although the Greenies don't send anyone, as they don't have enough members who understand the nuts-n-bolts of pragmatic electoral politics.

Make that two poll watchers as the norm.

Pls. research voter laws before believing what you read on any blogs, folks.

Critical thinking, #101.

The Newspaper
January 10, 2008

Toll road officials in San Francisco, California want the authority to seize any vehicle accused of “cheating” on toll payments. A Bay Area Toll Authority (BATA) presentation yesterday called for new powers that would ensure that the agency collected the maximum amount of revenue each year. BATA will ask the state legislature to adopt legislation granting BATA the authority to locate and tow away any vehicle it says has not paid up. It also would like the authority to revoke the driver’s license of a vehicle owner accused of not paying a notice of violation. Despite the tough talk, however, the tolling agency grudgingly admits some violations are not actually the fault of the motorist.

“These violations mainly result from the toll lane equipment not reading the tag of a FasTrak customer,” BATA Deputy Executive Director Andrew B. Fremier wrote in a memo to committee members. “There are a number of reasons that the lane equipment may not read a tag of a FasTrak customer, including the tag reader in the lane becomes misaligned… or the toll tag malfunctions.”

National Shooting Sports Foundation
January 7, 2008

Citi Merchant Services and First Data Corp. are refusing to process any credit card transactions between federally licensed firearms retailers, distributors and manufacturers — a move which will severely limit available inventory of firearms and ammunition to military, law enforcement and law-abiding Americans.

The first company to be affected by this decision appears to be firearms distributor CDNN Sports Inc.

"We were contacted recently by First Data/Citi Merchant Services by a June Rivera-Mantilla stating that we were terminated and funds were being seized for selling firearms in a non-face-to-face transaction," said Charlie Crawford, president of CDNN Sports Inc. "Although perfectly legal, we were also informed that no transactions would be processed in the future, even for non-firearms. I find this very frightening."

To voice your concern to Citi Merchant Services and First Data Corp., please contact June Rivera-Mantilla at 631-683-7734 or her supervisor Robert Tenenbaum at 631-683-6570.

To change to an NSSF-affiliated credit card processing program, contact Payment Alliance International at 1-866-371-2273 (ext. 1131).

185.

With all due respect Tom, the 2-Americas has not disappeared from Edwards stump speech.

 And it more accurately describes this country than the "One People, One Nation" fiction.

162.  I'm sure there were buses from other states near the polling places.  Sing holders are only required to stay 50 or so feet away from the entrance and the moneyed candidates had hired visibility people for the duration of the campaign.  It is possible to register on voting day but one does have to provide proof of residence or sign a sworn avidavit.  College students automatically qualify as residents.  Some election supervisors used to give them a hard time, but now the university provides forms attesting to their residence in residence halls.  A utility bill works, but if many students are sharing a house, only one usually gets the bills.

While it might make a difference in a local election if the voters aren't familiar with the candidates, I don't see that it makes much difference where people vote in the presidential process.

That voters commit fraud is a conservative shiboleth which springs from their conviction that there should be clear distinctions between who belongs and who doesn't.  Citizenship, as I said earlier, imposes more obligations and responsibilities.  The benefits of living here are the same for everyone.  Some people are still pissed about having to let so many people participate in the poltical process and what they see as a division of the "spoils" that they're constantly looking for reasons to shut someone out.

From their perspective, if everyone is entitled to vote then it's no longer a special privilege--a talisman of elite status. 

The saga of building the rain barrel............so far, 2 trips to Lowes.......and counting. Reminds me of Ralphies Dad tryig to fix the furnace in "A Christmas Story"..........

191.  What everyone needs to keep in mind is that, with the exception of some grant provisions or inter-state commerce regulations, private corporations do not have to serve anyone they don't want to nor do the anti-discrimination provisions of state and federal constitutions apply to them.  This needs to be considered whenever there's anothe proposal to "privatize" a government function because, more often than not, equality is out the door.

The next time you hear a politician talking about helping the "poor" take note and remember that the premise is that government takes care of the poor while the rich take care of themselves.  Which means that wealth isn't just equated with virtue, but with individual liberty.   

I've owned/shared life w/four Maine Coon cats, John.

Missy (abandoned by "summah complaints" on a lake), Nosey (abandoned in a ditch--very sickly kitten was my daughter's "Nanny" from birth-age nine--slept *in* daughter's crib); Otter (abandoned in a FLA dumpster--flown to ME by a wealthy retired airline pilot) died young of a weird urinary tract disease, despite two vet interventions--killed me; and now Kiah (unknown history, but fully grown/abandoned).

Kiah's approx. 7.5 yrs. now. Does as he damned well pleases!

Searched him online; and adopted him the next day.

He eats fresh shrimp (two large) daily; and Wysong dry (plus powedered vitamins). Healthy, *handsome* coat & markings; and loving (doesn't care to sit in laps or be held, which is a bummer--but very affectionate, otherwise).

What a life...curled up in his very own rocking chair...with nice warm sun streaming thru the window.

All were immediately neutered or spayed within a week of adoption (if they weren't already).

I'd rather have them around, vs. screwball people (any day)!

Almost the same as having a dog...wonderfully personable cats--they follow you everywhere; don't meow (have a little "eh...eh" sound); and are friendly, immaculate--as well as very independent (prolly why I love 'em)!

Kiah's not large as are some male Coons, as he's 100% indoors--weighs perhaps 12 lbs. (mostly hair)! Too much traffic for him to go outside here.

And good lookin' as hell, if I do say. Thinks my leather purses belong to him, also--rubs on them all the time.

I always adopt from a local shelter--sometimes they're listed as "long-haired domestic". I can't go near shelters, as I'm a total sucker.

My 1st husband (he's an *ex*, for good reason!) *ridiculed* my grieving for Missy. Asshole.

I'd have a cattery of Maine Coons if my apartment was larger/owned my own home.

Love 'em to pieces!

During a fundraiser for Tom Allen in Sept. (upscale lawyer's home)--about 80 people in attendance.

There was a gorgeous Maine Coon perched atop a loveseat--oblvious to all the commotion in her home.

I sat down on the loveseat; and in less than 30 sec., "Elvis" (a girl) was in my lap.

I have Maine Coon karma; and they sense it.

Elvis was in my lap for the evening...even when I got up for some munchies and a beer--she waited for me to return to the loveseat.

Poof...in my lap again--throughout Tom's stump and Q&A (45 min. or so). Flipped onto her side for all kinds of lovin'.

No need to pay big bucks for papers...Maine Coons are readily available for adoption via Petfinder.com

Love 'em to pieces.

mainefem - I'm a cat lover too. Four kitties - three are Abyssinian and one stray. I was at a local anti-war shop here in town and they had a Cat Lady Action Figure. Hilarious!!!

Here you go--direct from the WaPo:

Main Page | Charles W. "Chuck" Colson Archives | On Faith Archives

E. O. Wilson’s proposal for “an alliance between science and religion forged in an atmosphere of mutual respect” is one of the healthiest suggestions I have heard, especially since it comes from the founder of the sociobiology school, which is rooted in materialism and rejection of the supernatural.

Could it be that Wilson, admittedly an extraordinary intellect, has had a second “conversion”? He has written that he left his own Baptist faith at the age of 15 and entered the “temple of science.” Perhaps he has come back.

All people of faith will applaud this proposal. History, as well as common sense, tells us that there should be a healthy respect between science and faith. The scientific method was after all developed by Christians in the reformation era who denied the Aristotelian presupposition that the universe is infinite and therefore all reasoning must be deductive. They argued instead that since this is God’s creation, every area is open to exploration. Introducing the inductive method brought about the scientific revolution and the emergence of people like Isaac Newton who not only pioneered great scientific discoveries but wrote Sunday school theology. There was no conflict.

And there is no conflict today. All science proceeds on certain faith presuppositions. In the case of the sociobiologist, that presupposition is materialism, that nature alone explains existence. Christians make a faith assumption that God began the universe and life. Many scientists, like Francis Collins, have found complete compatibility between science and religion. I am sure Collins and every other Christian will welcome Edmond Wilson’s proposal—a long sought-after truce in the struggles between naturalism and theism.

Please e-mail OnFaith if you'd like to receive an email notification when OnFaith sends out a new question.

I was aware that someone had beaten Howard to the punch on the "single step" quote. :) By thousands of years, yes?

can you say          genocide?

>

No. Not at all. Some call it war.

Yeah, psychopaths. 

When I lived in Rangeley (western Maine--moose and deer country), Nosey (Nanny cat) made friends w/an adolescent 2nd year Bambi.

It came each night @dusk to feed across the street in a large field (wasn't far from the lake down our road).

Nosey would hunker down about 10 yards away from the deer; and they'd converse in animal speak. I'd love to know what they were conversing about...it was neat as hell to watch w/the binoculars.

She'd also tag along w/us on our evening walk down the road (and rode on my shoulders on car trips. Roadpop Coon cat--only one who didn't despise car rides. Freaked out other drivers at stop lights! They'd do a double take when seeing this furry cat draped across my shoulder....

Nosey was the sickly kitten, who had a nasty parasite in her intestines (abandoned in a ditch).

Very special, as they all were/are in their own way.

Our dog, Honey grieved for a few weeks after Nosey's death--suddenly took over Nosey's Morris chair spot (never had done so previous to that); and moped around/didn't mooch (which was totally out of character for Honey).

Major fat girl/spoiled rotten moocher/bed hog/car ride buddy.

Bank tellers spoiled her extra rotten (and were bummed when she died), as she was blind in one eye & had the other one removed; but knew what the hell a drive-up window implied. One teller would give Honey double treats, so I tried to hit that bank branch (and that particular teller) whenever possible.

Honey would shimmy up close to the front w/her paws on my shoulder--afraid they wouldn't notice her.

Honey would ride w/me for thousands of miles & wait for me to do whatever I needed to do, re: errands, vs. be left alone at home (she had some severe attachment/separation anxiety disorder issues)! I came close to having a vet prescribe her doggy Paxil, but didn't. "Velcro Cling-On Trauma Girl," indeedy.

Part of the family, always.

Pat, Obamas "bringing people together" is that he doesn't believe in idealism and he believes we should "compromise" and have the Corporations at the table for negotiating. Uh, hellllooooo, that's what we have with these NeoCons. Corporations at their table setting our agenda. That's not my idea of governing for the people

It's not my idea that voting for Bush's bankruptcy revision, NCLB, Patriot Crap, and Iraq invasion as Hillary and Edwards is either.  

My very elderly Mother, who has learned to operate the computer we got her and emails... was upset today because she got a VERY ugly email about Barrack Obama.   I read it and it's just trashy.   I know there are a lot of people who almost accept anything that comes in email, but even my 84 year old Mother was  - angry.   So, let the ugly trashers try it.   I think it will backfire.

P.S.   Note that Mr. Karl (Rove that is) has open space anytime on Murdoch's new Wall Street Journal and has  'all of a sudden', decided that if he praises Hillary and poo poo's Obama, that somehow that will be good for Obama.   Silly Karl... he still thinks most Americans are stupid...

169

Ooops I was referring to above post as total BS.

I'm going to go for a run and calm down.

That post embodied facts--BS to some people.

Is it too far reaching to think that a roundtable discussion between the current GOP administration and corporations might look totally different with a Democratic administration? I know, I know - what's the difference one might say?

But new faces at the table on the side of the government might just be the new blood needed to make progress. The status quo is not at all appealing.

What Colson and the rest of the right wing "religous" wing nuts are seeing their flocks look at more issues then just abortion and gay bashing. Dobson and Colson (too name a couple) feel like these are the most important issues and the other things Jesus mentioned like poverty, hunger, don't murder people, that kind of stuff, isn't as important.
There is a conservative movement championed by leaders such as Huckabee that see issues of poverty, hunger and environemt worthy of discussion.
We can all go to his web site and see the usual anti-abortion and gay bashing (subtle). He is on record for supporting creationism but no mention of Darwinism.
I think McCain is a lot easiet to atack then Huckabee. McCain has a long track record of voting against the goodwill of the American people. Huckabee is just starting out and as governor of a small state he has the Rep of being pragmatic at best and a Dem at worst. He has a taste of larceny in his soul. He must have removed the part about honesty from his Bible.

http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2008...

Butterfield now endorses Obama

The Wilson Democrat had previously backed former North Carolina senator John Edwards' bid for the Democratic presidential nomination.

In a statement from the Obama campaign, Butterfield is quoted saying that he believes that Edwards is basically out of the race.

http://projects.newsobserver.com/under_the_dome/butterfield_now_endorses_obama

Tom Wrote:

John wrote "Edwards view that there are 2 nations, steadily diverging under Bush, is much closer to reality than Obama's bogus slogan."

That's just some old ad copy.  The two Americas was replaced as part of Edwards' stump speech with an appeal to the middle class after he discovered how many fewer of those in one of the Americas tended to vote in comparison to the other.

Is a speech from January 8, 2008 "old ad copy"?

 In a departure from his usual stump speech, John Edwards channeled his 2004 "Two Americas" theme and lamented the plight of the African-American community

"You know, when I talk about two Americas, I am deadly serious. It's not just schools, it's not just health care. Race plays an enormous role in the economic conditions of Americans," Edwards said to applause about five minutes into his speech at the crowded Darrah Hall on St. Helena Island.

"We could pretend it's not true, but decade after decade of slavery followed by decade after decade of segregation followed by decade after decade of discrimination has an impact. It has an effect," he continued. "If you're African-American in this country today you have about -- on average -- about 10 percent of the net worth of white families. Ten percent -- average net worth of black families is about $8,000; [average net worth of] white families is about $80,000. And let me tell you, we're not moving in the right direction. African-American children who were born into middle class families in the 1960s are now living in poverty."

Hitler? 

And I thought Dog Soldier asking where's the beef was scraping the bottom of the barrel. 

Here it comes - the Republicans using the 'race card'...hoping we wo'n't NOTICE..

Clinton camp hits Obama | Attacks 'painful' for black voters

Sharp criticism of Barack Obama and other comments about Martin Luther King Jr. — all from people associated with Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign — have generated resentment among some black S.C. voters.

The furor comes just two weeks before those voters will have a significant say in who wins the Jan. 26 primary here.

The Clinton-Obama battle has the potential to become a wrenching divide for black voters. Historically those voters have been strong backers of Bill and Hillary Clinton. But many black voters now are drawn to the prospect of a black man winning the presidency. http://www.thestate.com/presidential-politics/story/282561.html 

Hillary said something like ....having the idea and standing up for it...is one thing (Martin Luther King)  getting it passed through our laws - is another. - needs insiders in government.  And you know - HOW DARE them say, that the African/American people aren't capable of voting for the candidate who they think will be best for the country. ...no matter what color.

Butterfield is quoted saying that he believes that Edwards is basically out of the race.

I hope he stays in nevertheless so that those who like like him can have their say. 

Clinton camp hits Obama

From the sewer's heart I strike at thee. 

We got our main coon from the pound about 12 years ago. He weighs about 20 pounds and looks thin. The vet said he is chubby so that is his new name: Chubs. Lotsa fur which is needed in Michigan. He is an inside cat because we have lots of predators in our area (coyotes, lynx, fox, martins, hawks, eagles). The neighbors said they saw a puma but no tracks and scat was found.
Anyhow, with that kind of activity, the beast stays indoors.
My only wish is we should have gotten two as Chubs is lonely when we leave the house. When anyone comes over, especially the grandkids, it is someone new to play with. He keeps us busy thinking up new ways to keep him interested.
Chubs doesn't travel well and we had trouble moving him when we did our winter migration to warm weather. We are staying pat this year so he is happy. We have many bird feeders and bird baths and bat boxes. We have lots of windows and perches so he follows the sun and the birds. During the summer, the bats are active all night and Chubs catches sight of them in the light.

Here it comes - the Republicans using the 'race card'...hoping we wo'n't NOTICE..

Excuse me the Republicans?  They probably will join in.  But it is the Clinton camp playing the race card.

Conyers does NOT care about Wexler’s Petition to start Cheney impeachment hearings!  Read the transcript from Democracy Now.  http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2007/12/22/from-democracy-now-interview-with-conyers-he-doesnt-care-about-wexlers-petition/  View the video of his speech from September. http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2008/01/12/john-conyers-on-the-topic-of-impeachment/  He will NOT allow impeachment hearings to take place. Conyers knows that Pelosi will undercut the efforts of impeachment rather than helping to build a bi-partisan coalition to impeach. Conyers knows that Pelosi will again be Speaker of the House next year and she will take him off the Judiciary Committee if he goes against her wishes. It’s a “lose-lose” for him and impeachment. Let’s help him and the rest of the members of the House of Representatives by removing an obstructionist Speaker. It can be done and must be done to start the impeachment process. http://www.petitiononline.com/everyman/petition.html 

Back for a bit ...

Joan, you may not have read through all of my post or perhaps I did not articulate my point well enough. What sent up red flags for me was that Obama was the ONLY Dem candidate to set *faith* apart as a separate *issue.* Please check out his website.

If I am wrong and there is another Dem candidate who has done that, please do point it out to me.

I am not casting aspersions on his religious practice or his specific church or beliefs in any way, shape or form. I really could care less. What I will judge him on are his actions or his omissions in fact.

To repeat the salient point from my post: *For me, all that we need to know about faith is that freedom of (or from) religion is a constitutional right and that otherwise religion is, and should be, a private matter. Period.*

So I really would much rather know other things about a candidate's stand. If he or she is prepared to uphold and enforce the Constitution, then they really don't need to tell me what their religious beliefs are or whether they believe at all. So long as they do not try to impose them on me or anyone else, I will respect them.

We have seen too much abuse of *religion,* *values,* and *beliefs* here in the US where, for example, creationism is still held up by some as the equivalent of evolution and where we are giving money to religious institutions to perform public functions in a way that was never intended under our Constitution. Our own intolerance has spread. Under our illegal occupation in Iraq, for example, a real sectarian war has been created where, even under Saddam, religious tolerance was the practice for generations.

So yes, I am afraid that *faith* as an issue sends up red flags for me ... from ANY candidate.

I know also that people like Bill Moyers, Al Gore, Jimmy Carter and many, many others have performed public service for major parts of their lives in part because they have been inspired by their religious beliefs and I totally admire them for that. But they are not the ones who make a big deal about it. They just go quietly about their business.

I am sorry if I have offended some here. I did not intend to do so. But that is what I believe ... and, so long as I am a US citizen at least, I have the right, not only to have that belief, but to express it openly.

Clinton's pandering is an insult to black voters

Clinton later explained her drawl around black audiences to a meeting of the National Association of Black Journalists, "I lived all those years in Arkansas, and, you know, I'm in this interracial marriage." The interracial marriage bit has to do with the frequent reference to former President Bill Clinton, by the Congressional Black Caucus and others, as the "first black president."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20070912/ai_n19517648

The Michigan primary has Hillary, but no Obama or Edwards. The massive black Detroit population which supported Bubba big time doesn't get a chance to choose.
If BO or HC gets it, I am sure Michigan goes to the Dems. The margin of victory has been going down the last few elections. If JE then the situation is iffy although his populist message should work because groups like ACORN are active. There is a big right-to-work push this year and I would be surprised if it is not on the ballot in November. Repubs are blaming the unions for keeping companies out, and unions historically support the Dems. Repubs are hoping to get their vote out by union bashing.

John wrote "Is a speech from January 8, 2008 'old ad copy'?"

Since Edwards "channeled his 2004 'Two Americas' theme"  according to the report, it obviously is.  It's the political equivalent of Edwards' golden oldies.

217,
The opposite must also be true. If folks want to talk about it then let them. For some, this is a litmus test. For others, it is noise and they aren't listening.
I generally find i get along better with folks who have an understanding of where they fit into the spiritual universe. As a wicked money grabbing Repub who looked for the beef, I found the need to recognise a higher order then people. It just made my life more whole.
It is to easy to say there are no atheists in fox holes as a lot of folks prayed during shellings.
That is just another beefy movie line.

Mike--rain barrel:

http://tinyurl.com/39hzwk

Judy wrote "What sent up red flags for me was that Obama was the ONLY Dem candidate to set *faith* apart as a separate *issue.* Please check out his website. If I am wrong and there is another Dem candidate who has done that, please do point it out to me."

I'm not entirely certain if by the phrase "set[ting] apart as a separate issue," you're referring to a candidate who discusses his or her faith in the campaign.  Regardless of that, though, this is from Jeanne Cummings' article in the Politico today entitled Obama asks S.C. black voters to have faith:

"More so than any his adversaries, Obama is plowing turf his party tiptoed or blundered through in 2004, allowing President Bush to capture, by a wide margin, the votes cast by churchgoing voters.

"That loss to Bush became a wakeup call to all Democrats, and every one of them is talking more openly this cycle about their faith. Clinton, who has said she prays daily, has sought to organize strong support in her church, United Methodist. John Edwards, also a Methodist, has spoken about how faith helped him endure after his son’s death. For the first time, all of the leading Democratic candidates have senior religious outreach advisers.

"A Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life study conducted last year showed Democrats making some headway. For instance, 38 percent of weekly attending non-Latino Catholics voted for John F. Kerry in 2004, but 52 percent now say they would 'like to vote' for a Democrat.

"Obama’s campaign is unique among Democrats in that it has adopted faith as an organizing tool, a tactic mastered by the Bush-Cheney campaigns in 2000 and 2004."

218.

Clinton's pandering is an insult to black voters

I would certainly hope so. She's patronizing them and many of us as well. She sees herself as a queen bee and is disgustingly insulted because presently she isn't the top dog in this race (though CNN would have us believe otherwise).

I believe Bill Clinton was really the same. He had some good blacks in his administration and that's to his credit. But he also knew how to pander and had the talent to hide it and get away with the perception that he was supporting them when he was actually supporting the middle class in general. His welfare reform bill should have given all low income constituents, regardless of race, color, and especially women that he did not support those who seldom voted.

222. Tom ... please check out his campaign website. I have been comparing the issues among Dem candidates as expressed on their own websites.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/faith/...

222.

Faith -- Something Howard has been preaching to Dems for some time. You can be an agnostic, an atheist, or a Baptist, but faith is very important to so many voters. It should not, however, be expected that a candidate with faith will bring more religion to the WH. We don't need that.

Huckabee is one who would be worse than GWB in that respect. He is getting away with trying to sell himself as your usual average candidate who would do good things for middle America. Forget it. Just like GWB's uniter claim, Huckabee is a fraud and a dangerous candidate.

I personally am very nervous when someone talks about the *role of faith in American life* as a separate issue in a Presidential campaign.

BOhas spoken about his faith and how it gives him strength on Sojouners and Call for Renew.
I don't see this as a big deal either way. It is nice he has that ability to talk about his place in the universe. It wouldn't matter if he said nothing.
I kinda sense a litmus test of not talking about religion; as if some are threatened by the discussion of religion. All folks that talk about it are not going to beat everyone over the head by a cross anymore then those who choose not to discuss it are going to beat anyone over the head with something else. Fear is a bad thing especially of those who may be different then you.
There are more important things to measure a candidates abilities then that.
We can choose to be free of religion or free to practice it. It shouldn't matter to anyone else either way.

224. Joan ... I think that we agree on this point.

227 ... There are more important things to measure a candidates abilities then that.
We can choose to be free of religion or free to practice it. It shouldn't matter to anyone else either way.

*********
absolutely dog ... that's what I thought that I was saying and I stress that I was speaking for myself.

Politicans who pander are an insult to all voters. They are dishonest and there is enough of that going around.

Since Edwards "channeled his 2004 'Two Americas' theme"  according to the report, it obviously is.  It's the political equivalent of Edwards' golden oldies.

It's still a contemporary stump speech Tom, and it rings a lot truer that the feelgood Obama rhetoric.

On topic ... and this is my last for today. I am REALLY sorry that I can't vote for Donna Edwards because she is not in my MD district.

Good luck, Donna. We do need to get rid of Wynn!

"Obama’s campaign is unique among Democrats in that it has adopted faith as an organizing tool, a tactic mastered by the Bush-Cheney campaigns in 2000 and 2004."

When I start seeing pictures of Obama with a halo I'll know he's gone too fr. 

169.

Hitler? 

And I thought Dog Soldier asking where's the beef was scraping the bottom of the barrel. 

You're enamored of facts Sitka. And the words are the same, 75 years apart. I assign no significance to that fact. I was merely reporting it.

Judy wrote: "Tom ... please check out his campaign website. I have been comparing the issues among Dem candidates as expressed on their own websites."

Thanks.  I've been there.  Just my opinion, but two paragraphs of platitudes and motherhood statements, to borrow John's description, shouldn't be much of a cause for alarm.  The site includes the following from E.J. Dionne which, by the way, refers to a speech.  I only mention it because the Politico article I cited from makes reference to what the candidates mention on the campaign trail, which appears to be exactly what we're discussing here. I would not attribute much significance to the mere fact that a short summary of those comments has been committed to print on a campaign website.

“(Obama's speech on faith) may be the most important pronouncement by a Democrat on faith and politics since John F. Kennedy's Houston speech in 1960 declaring his independence from the Vatican...Obama offers the first faith testimony I have heard from any politician that speaks honestly about the uncertainties of belief.”

If you love me keep my commandments.

... one of which says one shouldn't lie.

i'd keep the religion thingy down to a soft whisper if i were him

It's still a contemporary stump speech Tom, and it rings a lot truer that the feelgood Obama rhetoric.

It's rhetoric for both. The funny thing is, Edwards' record matches Obama's rhetoric more than it does his own. 

What we have to be very careful about is seeing if the words match the deeds.
So far, all candidates have failed in that respect. All three Dem candidates and McCain are Senators - or former Senators who made questionable votes. Huckabee is a Governor who had shady financial dealings in Arkensas.
What this means is any of the above candidates trying to be holier then the next person has already failed.
The Bible is full of those who prayed and did horrible things to people - kinda like Bush holding up his Bible and attacking an innocent country. The measure of a person is what they do to make the world better regardless of being a Christain or agnostic or Druid or something else or nothing at all.

I assign no significance to that fact. I was merely reporting it.

In that case, thanks for the insignificant fact. 

time to go for the day..
Am BBQing BEEF tonight...

From the previous thread.

28.

mainefem
Fri, 01/11/08


...Democrats have always been racist and sexist--they're simply more covert about it (esp. party insider hacks).

As Susan has done upthread, "Chair" and "Vice Chair" is 100% appropriate.

*Never* Chairwoman, Chairman, or Chairperson (also: Representative so & so, vs. Congresswoman, Congressman, or Congressperson).

"Person" within the root derivative is a redundant given. The rest is socially constructed sexism.

Make sure your lit reflects gender neutral linguistics...it matters (influences perception).

Position of power/role/responsibility, vs. penis, folks.

---

I use the title of Chair because that is what the committee's bylaws and rules call the position. It's a funny title to me. Folks are not a piece of furniture. I did used Chairwomen for a while but it was a lot to type and I like to use my short name. It looked funny on paper. Changing it had nothing to do with the fact that I'm a woman. Everybody knows that I'm a woman. I've never hidden that fact from anybody. Most of the time I just sign stuff with my first name. If I use any titles it's normally out of respect for the person's position whom I've written. I don't like to use a business card either. When folks ask me for my card I tell them that I don't use them. If they really want to communicate I'll write down my phone number and email address or I ask them to look me up at the DFA-Link.

Which one would you prefer?

Susan
Susan Rowe
Susan Smith-Rowe
Susan M. Rowe
Susan Marie Smith-Rowe
Mrs. Susan Rowe
Mrs. Susan Smith-Rowe
Mrs. Rowe
Mrs. Smith-Rowe
Mrs. Michael E. Rowe(there is no such person)
Chair Rowe
Chairwoman Rowe
Chairperson Rowe
Chair Smith-Rowe
Chairwoman Smith-Rowe
Chairperson Smith-Rowe
Chair, Madera County Democratic Party
Chair, Madera County Democratic Cental Committee
Chair, Madera County DCC
Chairwoman, Madera County Democratic Party
Chairwoman, Madera County Democratic Cental Committee
Chairwoman, Madera County DCC
Chairperson, Madera County Democratic Party
Chairperson, Madera County Democratic Cental Committee
Chairperson, Madera County DCC

This is a partial listing. You can Google more if you prefer.

Gov. Dean sometimes Chair and sometimes uses Chairman. What gender is a Governor or a President? How about the gender of a Secretary of State or the Surgeon General?

p.s if i've always advocated to stand on your morals

... but they can't be violated AND used as a prop

John wrote "It's still a contemporary stump speech Tom, and it rings a lot truer that the feelgood Obama rhetoric."

It was "a departure from his usual stump speech." It mustn't be lost on the reader that Edwards' resurrection of the hoary Two Americas theme came as he spoke to a group in Beaufort, SC, where approximately 25% of the citizens are black.  He was comparing the average net worth of black and white families. 

The more gimlet-eyed observer will detect that the theme was dusted off to attract the poor black voters whose votes are suddenly at a premium in the South Carolina primary.

I agree with you Judy.

BTW, I actually HAVE visited Obama's website at least a couple hundred times. One can find a great deal out about him there and, of course contribute:))  if you would like.

sometimes Chair s/b sometimes uses Chair

241.


What is really funny is that some folks even use the title of Chairman when they write to or introduce me. And sometimes I'm introduced as the Madame Chair. Now that one makes me really chuckle.

I'm going to award a HOWARDLY to Pat. She didn't just attend the event and do her part she brought it back in a form that we could all understand.

stand for truth

241. con't.

In California are Democratic organizations are all to be gender balanced. It's written in our State Party's rules and bylaws. If your Committee Chair is a female then the Vice Chair has to be male and vice versa. All of our Convention Delegates are elected the same way. Females run against females and males run against males.

Repubs are hoping to get their vote out by union bashing.

~~~~~~~~~

dog soldier

and you don't think think this warrants a fight?

this country started going to hell the minute Reagan fired the air traffic controllers 

Dave wrote "i'd keep the religion thingy down to a soft whisper if i were [Obama]."

In fact, you'd drum up indignation among his Illinois constituents because he's running to represent their interests as a president instead of a senator.  I'm not sure how the campaign managed to overlook you as consultant.

my current title is Chair of the Platform Committee for the First Congressional District, Susan, and it becomes more than a title only when someone wants to disrupt the flow of work with some arcane use of Roberts Rules of Order

then whatever you want to title it  the "Chair" becomes important, as you well know work gets done when it is delegated to folks who step up, and very little done by folk to whom a title matters

Well, it seems to have devolved to charges and countercharges of exploitation, racism, sexism....even hitlerism.... with "where's the beef" thrown in for good measure.

And it's going to get worse. I'm glad I don't have to play that game.

They then supplied cheap labor, no environmental or labor standards
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Cheap by our standards may be very good pay by *their* standards. And it's purest of myths that they have no environmental or labor standards. No -- they're not as far advanced as we are, but prolly better than we were mid-century. They'll learn. They are not one bit stupid.

4:31EST

Go PACKER!

Susan

as an aside I've served as Parliamentarian of the State Convention in the past, and the convention is in big trouble when that becomes more than a ceremonial position, lol

Susan Rowe, I kind of like Madam Chair;))

247.  Happily second the HOWARDLY to Pat in Colorado.

Just glancing at Hillary Clinton on CNN live at a rally (she's been on for a half hour). She's sticking poses that resemble Joan Fontaine, Betty Davis or some other movie star from the 40's, face dramatic, arm stretch far up and out! 

Can anyone picture this woman being a president. I can't. She must believe she is trying out for a major dramatic role in an old movie:))

Makes me want to curtsy!

test 

I've just had two long posts just disappear. 

puddle

China may have lured too many citizens into the cities and food production must be transported and is disconnected from the population, so  a year like now when there is a shortage it doesn't get translated into eating just a tiny bit less each day like it normally would in a more dispersed population. The first real test of the new economic theory in China may come this year as basic foodstuffs have tripled in price. and the difference in the harvest might be the nutrient loss from the countryside of the age old recyling, we have made up the difference for years with petro-chemical alternatives and dumping our waste in the Gulf of Mexico as the dead zone

hard for us to point fingers on environmental themes

She must believe she is trying out for a major dramatic role in an old movie:))

In all fairness, Edwards and Obama strike poses too. They all do it for those who can't grasp records and issues.

Makes me want to curtsy!

Makes me want to behead a monarch -- and I don't mean a butterfly. 

169.

Huron John
Sat, 01/12/08

His "One People, One Nation" is a direct translation of "Ein Volk, Ein Reich", and in the case of America, it is not true.

======================================

I catch on -- you are saying the titles are the same -- no big -- to me anyway. When I first read your post I thought you meant he was giving the same speech.

There are some scary things about Obama -- one is this post. Another is how he is campaigning pretty much like W - a uniter, guy you want to have a beer w/ etc. For me at least his religion is not bothering me -- he does have that "mozlin" rumor to overcome.

Florida -- Joan my part of FL isn't like yours -- we are as segregated as the 60's -- no joke. Blacks have started going down to 'our' lake -- as a result I don't think 'we' go down there anymore. I don't go b/c of the gators.

=====================================

I think the opera was good -- I slept through a lot of it -- I didn't sense an intermission -- must have slept through that part -- one has to prepare oneself mentally for long operas with no intermissions -- especially w/ the long BR lines.

seashell

watch your borders if you cut and paste

paine

the Packers might have a short post season if they can't hang on to the ball

I was late getting to the airport this morning and my som missed his flight because that little fine granular snow is really slippery

he now is in Dallas and won't get home til seven hours after the original schedule, but the hundred bucks it cost me to reschedule his ticket instead of dumping him into OHare on standby was worth it 

The Packers lost three fumbles in their last 11 games and coughed up two already, I might save my trip to the big sceen after feeding if they get any further down by handing over points

OK, that's 4 posts that have disappeared.

Cheap by our standards may be very good pay by *their* standards. And it's purest of myths that they have no environmental or labor standards. No -- they're not as far advanced as we are, but prolly better than we were mid-century. They'll learn. They are not one bit stupid.

<

Who was...that masked poster, kemo sabe?

217.  I think that for many people voluntary subservience to the laws of God as proclaimed by their religion is preferable to subservience to the state, particularly if they are convinced that it is their duty to obey.  They'd rather obey God than the government.

That they are the government under our system is probably foreign to their way of thinking and lots of politicians obviously prefer it that way.  Which of the candidates was it that said the other day that the government's role is to exact vengeance? 

An example of illogical thinking, faulty association of cause and effect:

Summary: On his daily BreakPoint radio commentary, convicted Watergate felon and Prison Fellowship Ministries founder Charles W. Colson claimed that legalized abortion created a labor shortage, forcing the United States to solicit undocumented workers from other countries to fill jobs that might have otherwise been occupied by the "40 million sacrificed since 1973" to abortion.

Ya, what are ya gunna do, Phil?

Ya put the kid on the plane; and with the Pack...well, ya just ask for the ginger schnapps)

Monica thanks again for your critical thinking skills that add so much original material to the discussion. You have the differences between the Parties disected and the unity desired by Obama isn't likely under current the intellectual bifurcation of subservience of half a population that thinks following orders is part of the natural order of things and ordained by God, and they sure as heck don't like the idea of Edwards putting up a "fight".

Original Sin

Women who are Chairs or Vice Chairs of Democratic groups/committees (or of any entity, for that matter) should be introduced (verbally, as well as in all printed materials) as Chair Rowe, or Chair, Susan Rowe (middle initial is fine, if you wish--irrelevant).

Never as Chairwoman/Chairperson/Chairman.

"Person" is a redundant given; and the fact that you're a woman only adds to the potentiality of sexism within the linguistics.

Chair defines a position of power, role, and responsibilities on your Democratic committee.

On a business card (or when being introduced in a public milieu): Chair Rowe, or Chair, Susan Rowe would be appropriate.

*Never* as Chairwoman, Chairperson, or Chairman.

Or as Madame Chair.

Nada.

Same with Vice Chair (person's name follows-regardless of their sex).

When not in said political role in the public sphere, you should never be referred to as marital *chattel*, in relation to your husband (Miss or Mrs. Rowe). Ms. will suffice as default for all women (as an Honorific, if used at all).

If in an informal milieu, you chose either Susan, or Susan Rowe when introducing yourself to someone...depends upon the milieu, the group dynamic, and context.

Marital status (or lack thereof) should never "define" a woman's identity status.

Whenever I hear Howard call himself "Chairman," or someone introduces him as such, I freakin' hit the roof. Simply because Howard utters something, by no means implies that he's correct, folks.

It's matter of habit.

Have someone who has a clue proof your committee's bylaws, too.

Make sure the linguistics are thoroughly edited for sexist verbiage (unintentional sex bias doesn't count--edit, if necessary).

Same w/Representative (so and so).

It's never Congresswoman, Congressman, or Congressperson.

In writing, or verbally.

I'm going to watch the second half if they are within three touchdowns paine and their touchdown gave me new faith so I'd best head for the barn. The defense has risen to the occasion.

Yea, it worked.  Now let's see if there's a new thread.  :-)

There are some scary things about Obama -- one is this post.

I think it's scarier about the person who posted it and then said he attached no significance to it -- like the the way Hillary's person went on TV and dropped hints about Obama selling drugs by disclaiming the idea. 

Another is how he is campaigning pretty much like W - a uniter, guy you want to have a beer w/ etc

<>On the other hand, you've got Edwards campaigning as a divider with his "two America's"? 

For me at least his religion is not bothering me -- he does have that "mozlin" rumor to overcome.<>

<>Oh well.......Hillary has that Clinton thing to overcome and Edwards has the trial lawyer/hair things.

OK, that's 4 posts that have disappeared.

>

I put a hex on you, sea

seashell

I liked the Moyers interview and found it informative and I did know the point of view of Steele from his writings.

It is why I am glad that Obama has transcended race and make those that bring it up look like throwbacks.

There are plenty of reasons to prefer Edwards over Obama but race questions aren't a part of it.

Thanks,Huron. JE HAS addressed the 2 america race.  YEARRAGHRH!

The footing for the runners is going to get just like my driving conditions paine and I put the car sideways once, saw three in the ditch. I'm sure you hate the fine stuff too. bbl

The fine stuff is like ice or worse. 

I'll bet the two of you, this morning were upset that you didn't allow more time.  The more so as time ticked away, Phil.

Hold on to that fricken ball, Grant! Yeah!

There are plenty of reasons to prefer Edwards over Obama but race questions aren't a part of it.

Neither is Edwards' record. 

paine

I allowed an extra twenty minutes and needed thirty it is a two hour drive now I need to get those cows fed again and since I was early this morning I'll do it again and watch the second half on the big sceen.

GO PACK GO!!

seashell wrote that I wrote "Steele has made a lucrative career for himself by lambasting black people and praising white people."

I can't take any such credit.  That was an editor at Black Commentator I was quoting.  As the article stated, Steele is actually a right wing celebrity who toils for the notorious Hoover Institution.  You can absorb his received wisdom without "preconceived ideas" as much as you can from Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity or George Bush, for that matter.  I'm just going to point out his political bias when you quote him here, that's all.

No, race is not my problem with BO, nor is being a woman my problem with HC.  When both my intellect and gut agree, I pay close attention.

Quote from Sitka<>On the other hand, you've got Edwards campaigning as a divider with his "two America's"?

Sitka, I think not. JE is talking about realism.  We're are divided, both into class and into race.  He's pointing to the truth.

By avoiding talking about racial issues and discrimination, BO is not doing himself  any favors.  I would appreciate him more were he upfront and concise.  And yes, he should stay mum about religion since we're supposed to be a country built on separation of church and state.  

I think the one who mentioned vengeance was McCain.  Don't quote me. 

All this biblical/religion talk gives me the willies.  It's pandering, manipulation, even coercion.   

Page has a new diary--

248.

are Democratic s/b our Democratic

---

251.

Phil Specht
Sat, 01/12/08

Very true. You sure gotta know those Roberts Rules and the folks who show up. It's a wise person who listens to the Chair if they're doing the job. When I have a person like that I normally give them an extra bit of attention or a parking space. We set up the room in a circle and don't use a head table. I stand up and use the chair or the floor as a table.

---

256.

*** cChalfonte***
Sat, 01/12/08

Very funny.

275.

mainefem
Sat, 01/12/08

You made me laugh out loud.

Try this one---

http://www.blogforamerica.com/view/23524#comment-1155413 

Where is the new thread?

link

It's the third down in browse.

265.

Blacks have started going down to 'our' lake -- as a result I don't think 'we' go down there anymore. I don't go b/c of the gators.

Anni,

That's sad. Does that translate into meaning you are a racist?

Holy Cow Phil and cChalfonte, Thanks for the Howardly.  I'm thrilled.

The fourth question was about public financing.

Dennis Kucinich supports it and wants the big money out.

Barack Obama supports publically financed elections, but there's the sense you have be elected first before you can change the law.

John Edwards supports public financing and has rejected lobbyists and PACs.  Obama has joined him in his stance.

McCain and Huckabee also agree that public financing should be the law.

Senator Tom Gordon remarked that because less than 50 percent of the people in this country don't vote, interest groups and PACs fill that vacuum.

The fifth question was on gun control. 

John Edwards said the problem is that the NRA lobby is embedded in the Congress.  He promised that there would be no lobbyists in his Cabinet.

Obama's spokesperson didn't know what Obama's take was on gun control, nor did Kucinich's and Clinton's know what theirs was.

So, off for a while.  Thanks, Phil.  I'm as thrilled as when you told me about a cow named for me on my birthday. 

Should read "because 50 percent of the people don't vote,...."

Sorry, Tom, I knew you were quoting and in my frustration at trying to get at least one post thru, I neglected to be specific.  Thanks for pointing that out.

If I had the 3 cands in front of me, I would ask this question.  Do you draw any distinctions between spiritual and religious?  IMO the two are universes apart; religion being a belief in a particular mind set, following certain dogma, sometimes excluding other religions, and often claiming a hotline to some god or other, if they are orthodox.  OTOH, spirituality encompasses Everything, Everyone, Everyother.  It sees us all as family, it is universal, non-judgmental and doesn't claim to know much of anything and treasures others and the earth. Certain religious people are prone to killing for some reason.  Truly spiritual people usually aren't, in my experience.

I'd like a spiritual prez .

Spiritual is a way of Being, of Living in Self-Referral (Chopra discusses this)  Religious is a way of Other-Referral.

The spiritual path knows that "when the wind blows, the grass must bend."  I hear people on the religious path saying that if the wind blows, attack.   These are generalizations, perhaps good ones, perhaps not; but I do think we need a lively discussion in this country about the differences.  I'm not sure who would start such a discussion.  Perhaps just ordinary people.

Never mind.

Arms outstretched & upwards.

I noticed that distinctly, Joan (as well as @her "victory rally" in NH).

Reminded me of the matriarch, Old Baby Suggs (NOT) in the movie _Beloved_.

http://tinyurl.com/2ntwdx

Toni Morrison has endorsed her, BTW. Looked racially "coded" to Moi.

More from Margaret Atwood (_Beloved_) on the supernatural & occult in the AA community & historical narrative; subjugation of women as chattel (today=welfare deform); infanticide as an act of agency & of freedom; memories & collective conscience of slavery & reconstruction; and intersections of sex, race, and class (relevant today, for sure--very unsettling movie & book).

Not a fluff piece. It was an assigned analysis paper for all in my upper level (mandatory) feminist theory class.

http://tinyurl.com/ypfgkm

NEW THREAD

http://www.blogforamerica.com/view/23524#comment-1155428 

Sitka, I think not. JE is talking about realism.  We're are divided, both into class and into race.  He's pointing to the truth

He's pointing to trying to get himself elected nominated. Afterward he'll have a $25K/plate fundraiser like Kerry did and disavow everything he promised in the primaries.. 

What a game, Phil!

Oh my Lord!...Lou Dobbs just saying -=- “I think Hillary is showing a lot of character and ‘class’…and for those in the media saying these things (fake tears, looking old, etc.)…… “to Hell with them”!

CALIFORNIA IS VOTING!!!  we need to see presidential candidates out here!

******************** 

hillary, the three-legged candidate, stumbled again b/c of bill.  his remark about 'this whole thing' being 'a fairytale' [substitute synonyms like pipedream, kiddie crusade] highlights the clintons' paternalistic stance toward the african-american community.  when reading the transcript, i thought bill clinton's remarks seemed innocuous.  but the spoken word on videotape showed bill signifying to the afr-am voter, what al sharpton picked up on his radar as 'code.' 

another cultural nuance.......when barack said that hillary was 'likeable enough,' he was calling her on what is known in hawaii as 'acting,' or a performance--an inauthenticity.  it is not always negative--pundits used words such as 'churly' and 'peevish'--as long as participants know it for what it is in that cultural context.  obviously, a mixed crowd draws misinterpretations.

**************

an interesting tidbit.......the wall street journal's survey of leading economists revealed that mccain, followed by obama would be good for the economy.  my guess would have been romney first, then a list of republicans.