Dean is first and that's the truth.

Diebolds are last  - more truth

I agree with Indy and Phil about the diff between BO and HC.  Hope for what?  What are you offering?  Details please.  He seems to appeal to magical thinking....hope for it and it'll happen.

The si, se puede also appeals to the Latinos.  He knows that.  He's very good at hooking people in and is manipulative. 

If the fix isn't in for HC, then I think BO should hook up soon with JE.  Then Edwards can back out at the appropriate moment, giving BO the edge and the votes.  The alternative is to let HC have it.

JE is not a spoiler; he's the most sincere candidate IMO.   And I predict that his numbers will rise fast now as people begin to hear him.

BO and HC will try now to sound just like JE.  They know he's a threat, once the CM starts giving him face time.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080110/ap_po/richardson_4

AP: Richardson ends presidential bid

By NEDRA PICKLER, Associated Press Writer

10 minutes ago

...

Linda, good analysis!  Please keep coming back.

People get behind those whom they think will win.  Everybody loves a winner, right?  Except that BO may lose to HC unless JE gets out.  

rd - I hope he breaks for Obama.

from his mouth to your ears.  We already have a prez who lies.  Do we want another?  Ambitious, isn't he?

************************* 

MR. RUSSERT: There’s been enormous speculation about your political future, Senator. The man you succeeded in the Senate, Peter Fitzgerald, a Republican, said this recently. “I think there’s a very good chance that Senator Obama is on the Democratic ticket in 2008 as the vice presidential nominee.” Do you agree?

SEN. OBAMA: No.  You know, I can’t speculate on those kinds of things. What I have said is that, you know, I’m not focused on running for higher office, I’m focused on doing the job that the people of Illinois just sent me to do.

MR. RUSSERT: But there seems to be an evolution in your thinking. This is what you told the Chicago Tribune last month: “Have you ruled out running for another office before your term is up?” Obama answer: “It’s not something I anticipate doing.” But when we talked back in November of ‘04 after your election I said, “There’s been enormous speculation about your political future. Will you serve your six-year term as United States senator from Illinois?” Obama: “Absolutely.”

SEN. OBAMA: I will serve out my full six-year term. You know, Tim, if you get asked enough, sooner or later you get weary and you start looking for new ways of saying things. But my thinking has not changed.

MR. RUSSERT: So you will not run for president or vice president in 2008?

SEN. OBAMA: I will not.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10909406/ 

Hotline thinks Richardson will endorse Hillary prior to Nevada.

7.

No surprise there.

Well, seashell - let's just keep replaying all the wonderful things Edwards supported - the war, Patriot Act, etc prior to his supposed conversion. Who is more of an opportunist? Besides Howard, Gore and Feingold - there are very few purists.

I think ballot counting should be required of the citizenry just like jury duty. Every election from local to national, citizens would be called upon to perform their civic duty to keep the elections honest. What better way to get the masses involved with their own democracy?

"Democracy is not something you have, democracy is something you do"...Doris "Granny D" Haddock

8.

Hotline thinks Richardson will endorse Hillary prior to Nevada.

+++

No surprise there, since the SEIU union Nevada chapter (comp[osed mostly of hispanic workers) endorsed Obama earlier today.  Richardson is contraweight for Hillary appealing to those same folks.

Unbelievable!  The pundits can't figure out what happened and now are blaming the youthful posters or the voters lying.

Doesn't it ever occur to them that maybe during the exit polls, the votes were being switched?  What is wrong with this CM?

Oh, that's why. 

6.

Circumstances can change in people's lives. Don't think that will be held against Barack.

Can't tell you how many times in my life I've said I absolutely would not do something and turn right around and do it.

Maybe a state like Ohio, which had huge descrepencies in 2004 between exit polls and (actual?) votes, should implement a system of hand counting first.
They could even use the slogan...
"Freedom isn't Free...your turn to count"...lol

"follow the leader":

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7fe4cd92-beda-11dc-8c61-0000779fd2ac.html

By John Gapper

Published: January 9 2008 17:53 | Last updated: January 9 2008 17:53

Barack Obama, the 46-year-old Illinois senator, is now in a hard fight with Hillary Clinton for the Democratic presidential nomination. But he has already achieved something with his soaring rhetoric and his promise of change in Washington: the admiration of Americans, Bill Clinton excepted.

Among them are business leaders who must themselves convince shareholders, managers and employees that their companies can and should change. Mr Obama, of all the presidential candidates, is the one from whom chief executives can draw the clearest lessons about leadership.

On paper, if there is any candidate whom business leaders should be following, it is Mitt Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts and co-founder of Bain Capital, the private equity group. The square-jawed Mr Romney campaigns as a “can-do” guy whose business expertise will help him to shake up Washington.

But Mr Romney has undermined himself by blatantly flip-flopping on issues and speaking with the synthetic charm of a game-show host. Mike Huckabee, a fellow Republican, hit home with his jibe that the voters want a candidate “who reminds them of the guy they work with rather than the guy who laid them off”.

Then there is Mr Obama. Hardly any business leader can hope to match his skill as a speaker. He has displayed perfect pitch in his oratory, including his rejoinder to Mrs Clinton’s barb about “raising false hopes” during his concession speech in New Hampshire: “In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope.”

But Mr Obama has other qualities from which chief executives can learn.

The first is thoughtfulness. The Clintons have laid into him for lacking experience. But he compensates, as Peter Wehner, a former Bush administration official, wrote on the Commentary magazine blog, by “radiating a sense of good judgment”.

Mr Obama gives the impression of having thought deeply about issues and of saying what he really thinks rather than something convenient. That also matters in business, where many chief executives behave as Mr Romney has by spouting nostrums and flipping among strategies rather than sticking to well-considered decisions.

Many employees are like voters – they are disillusioned from having been caught up in too many flawed “change” programmes. They see executives arrive, restructure quickly according to the latest consultant’s advice, fail to achieve much and move on. They have a human yearning to be led by someone they trust.

His second quality is selflessness.

...

I trust Barack Obama.

Speaking of Progressive.. Cindy has upgraded her site....

http://www.cindyforcongress.org/

Hey Sea - not sure where you read about Obama using the Spanish translation of "yes, we can", as you reference in your post.

Yesterday, in Nevada, the Secretary/Treasurer of the Culinary Union used it, not Barack.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/politi...

Culinary secretary-treasurer D. Taylor praised the senator's work with a sister union in Chicago and said Obama would appeal across the union's diverse ranks. He took a jab at the mostly white electorate that had so far shaped the race in New Hampshire and Iowa.

"We're not just Wonderbread here, we got pumpernickel, we got whole wheat, we got rye. We're excited about that. That's America. That's why Senator Obama excites us and excites the country," Taylor said, following cheers and the union chant "Si se puede."

Obama chanted the English translation, "Yes we can," in his concession speech Tuesday.

Karen and Mary.  If you read the last thread, you'll note that several bloggers were discussing the Obama promise.  I think they may both be BO supporters.

I brought the message over.  But it's something to keep in mind.  They all lie.  Is there a difference between changing one's mind and outright lying.  Did he know he was lying?  Who knows?  I don't.

Started researching 'exit polls' .... if THIS is what they stop you and have you answer - it would take a half hour! and they want to know.....'how often you go to church?"..."what you think of BILL Clinton?".....  incredible.  Maybe they only got exit poll information from people willing to give up their privacey and had extra time on their hands!

Saw on another blog that - although it wasn't put out 'nationwide' - there was a lot of local coverage of some pundits in New Hampshire saying ugly things, including that Hillary should go back to her ironing board, etc.    I can't find the actual news on that yet, but - evidentally it REALLY P.O'd a lot of women.  

Karen I agree with you - circumstances do change decisions. Calling someone a liar is strong language when all of the details are not known.

By the way, it was Dick Durbin, senior Senator from Illinois, and his mentor, that encouraged him to do so (from yesterday's Sun Times political analyst, Lynn Sweet's, blog)

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. It just makes me feel better as a person.

Like when something is attributed to me that was actually posted by someone else - I chalk it up to just making an error.

Giving people the benefit of the doubt leaves the doors to communication open.

Maybe with McCain as the candidate, we will finially have a discussion about when to go to war.
The old adage about only when attacked isn't good enough. We must fight to defend the rights of others.
So in Darfur or Kenya where each side is slaughtering each other we must intervene or force the UN to intervene and stop the bloodshed. Those that say we must only go when our national interest is at stake are correct. Our national if not mental wellbeing is at stake if we refuse to get involved and ignore the carnage. I feel the same thing about the Israel/Palestine debacle. We must shut it down and stop both sides but especially Israel from slaughtering the Palestinians. Palestine either deserves their own home or full citizenship in the one they are in. Nothing else is acceptable. How about human rights abuses in China and other wage-slave markets? Did Obama blow it by granting Peru NAFTA status while at the same time saying NAFTA has economically hurt many people in developing countries? Every day it gets harder and harder to suggest China enforce human wage and working conditions and some kind of environment control when everyday we eviscerate the problem by sending more of our markets to China. The military is planning for the next Great War and they are planning on this war being against China. I have this discussion several times a week. It is what keeps the military defense establishment going year in and year out. Without China, there is no need for big defense projects. Iran is just a training ground to allow the military, especially the Air Force and Navy, to keep the pressure on Congress to keep the money flowing. China is the motherload for the military.

New Hampshire: So What Happened?

There is obviously one and only one topic on the minds of those who follow polls today. What happened in New Hampshire? Why did every poll fail to predict Hillary Clinton's victory?

Let's begin by acknowledging the obvious. There is a problem here. Even if the discrepancy between the last polls and the results turns out to be about a big last minute shift to Hillary Clinton that the polls somehow missed (and that certainly sounds like a strong possibility), just about every consumer of the polling data got the impression that a Barack Obama victory was inevitable. One way or another, that's a problem.

For the best summary of the error itself, I highly recommend the graphics and summary Charles Franklin posted earlier today. Here's a highlight of how the result compared to our trend estimates:

What we see for the Democrats is quite stunning. The polls actually spread very evenly around the actual Obama vote. Whatever went wrong, it was NOT an overestimate of Obama's support. The standard trend estimate for Obama was 36.7%, the sensitive estimate was 39.0% and the last five poll average was 38.4%, all reasonably close to his actual 36.4%.

It is the Clinton vote that was massively underestimated . . .Clinton's trend estimate was 30.4%, with the sensitive estimate even worse at 29.9% and the 5 poll average at 31.0% compared to her actual vote of 39.1%.

So what went wrong? We certainly have no shortage of theories. See Ambinder, Halperin, Kaus, and, for the conspiratorially minded, Friedman. The pollsters that have weighed in so far (that I've seen at least) are ABC's Gary Langer (also on video), Gallup's Frank Newport, Scott Rasmussen and John Zogby. Also, Nancy Mathiowetz, president of the American Association for Public Opinion Research (AAPOR) has blogged her thoughts on Huffington Post.

Figuring out what happened and sorting through the possibilities is obviously a much bigger task than one blog post the morning after the election. But let me quickly review some of the more plausible or widely repeated theories and review what hard evidence we have, for the moment, regarding each.

JE's problem is he is not a likeable sort.  No one has ever gotten elected President claiming half of america is screwing the other half.  You might win a democratic primary with that message but not the general election.  Even if its true, the half currently getting screwed all have hopes of moving up and advancing into the upper half and thus don't much enjoy the put downs.  More than 2,000,000 people work in the health care industry and nearly a the same in the drug industry.  Every time he calls them the devil, neither the employee or the families of the employees are going to be inclined to jump on board.  I thought he had such a positive message in 2004, now he just sounds bitter and depressing.  Just my opinion.  Given the group of misfit toys on the Republican side this year I am leaning towards Obama. Unfortunately  I live in a small red state and can't do him any good.

dog soldier that was a very imformative post. thanks - learn so much here!

1) A last minute shift? - Perhaps the polls had things about "right" as of the rolling snapshot taken from Saturday to Monday, but missed a final swing to Hillary Clinton that occurred over the last 24 hours and even as voters made their final decisions in the voting booth. After all, we knew that a big chunk of the Democratic electorate remained uncertain and conflicted, with strong positive impressions of all three Democratic front-runners. The final CNN/WMUR/UNH poll showed 21% of the Democrats "still trying to decide" which candidate they would support, and the exit poll showed 17% reported deciding on Election Day with another 21% deciding within the last three days. Polls showed Clinton polling in the mid to upper 30s during the late fall and early winter before a decline in December. Perhaps some supporters simply came home in the final hours of the campaign.

I did a quick comparison late last night of the crosstabs from the exit polls and final CNN/WMUR/UNH survey. Clinton's gains looked greatest among women and college educated voters. That pattern, if it also holds for other polls (a big if) seems suggestive of a late shift tied to the intense focus on Clinton's passionate and emotional remarks, especially over the last 24 hours of the campaign.

2) Too Many Independents? - One popular theory is that polls over-sampled independent voters who ultimately opted for a Republican ballot to vote for John McCain. I have not yet seen any hard turnout data on independents from the New Hampshire Secretary of State, but the exit poll data does not offer promising data for this theory. As I blogged yesterday, final Democratic polls put the percentage of registered independents (technically "undeclared" voters) at between 26% and 44% (on four polls that released the results of a party registration question). The exit poll reported the registered independent number as 42%, with another 6% reporting they were new registrants. So if anything polls may have had the independent share among Democrats too high.

(more at the link) 

So the race thing is already coming up on Keithie's show.  And I've been thinking more  on this.

My sense, and I hope I'm wrong, is that this country is still so sexist and racist that neither HC nor BO can win.  Oh, people will say that they will vote for a white women or a black man, but, like the person who was reported as being in the booth one hour yesterday, they may change their minds at the last minute.

Woman may choose HC due to any number of reasons, many of them suspect IMO, so she may get the nod.  But sexism will batter her.  BO is gonna be attacked by racists and swiftboaters.  As mainefem said,  it's gonna get real ugly. 

Realistically, looked at it this way, JE may be the only truly electable candidate.

I would love to see, out of what's left of the field, a JE/BO ticket,but I don't think that will happen. 

Sad to say, we live in a truly socially backward country.

Denise~

What are the latest polls in your state saying?

Polls suck, I know. Just curious.

Clinton won by only three percent, and so it's a little tricky to try and attribute her victory to one or another set of characteristics, or forces. But the exit polls did show some clear differences.

 Obama beat her among independents, but only by 10 percent. Clinton, by contrast, won 11 percent more self-described Democrats. Obama won both the secular and the devout, but Clinton captured the votes of the casual churchgoers.

Obama won among those who sought the candidate best able to bring about change, but Clinton won among those who prized experience and populist sympathies. Most importantly, Obama won among men, with 40 percent, where Hillary took a surprisingly low 29 percent.

But Clinton destroyed him among women, with 46 percent. And women, at the end of the day, turned out in much higher numbers, accounting for 57 percent of the total Democratic electorate.

--Ezra Klein

(more at the link) 

Well, that's silly.  Of course either BO or HC could win.  But that wasn't my point.

Too bad it isn't between BO and Boxer. 

Hey all.  Just reading through those polling analyses and thought they might be of interest. 

How about people think they have their minds made up, but in the solitude of a voting booth, change their mind. Or vote the way they really had intended to vote. I have done this, but I suffer from ADD, so my mind and focus changes a lot.

I think ballot counting should be required of the citizenry just like jury duty. Every election from local to national, citizens would be called upon to perform their civic duty to keep the elections honest. What better way to get the masses involved with their own democracy?
____________

My dad has been a precinct captain in Iowa for years and works every election doing just that.  Every ballot that has any problem with it, normally about 20% get spit out by the machine and he and a paid election official and the dem's captian look over each one and count them up and report the count to the election officials downtown, who add up all the precincts in town and send the results to Des Moines.  Go down and volunteer, every twon needs the help.

33.

This doesn't bode well for womens' intellect when they vote for a *gender* instead of a person. 

Karen - as of mid December Hillary was up 49%, Obama 30% and Edwards 15%.

I'll see if I can find something more current.

California has typically been Clinton country, but when Obama was here the past few times he drew huge crowds.

I can remember the last time Edwards was here.

We may have finally seen something that resembles the real HC. It is kind of funny but she raised a huge amount of money, hired everyone possible with a forsale sign aound their neck, spent most of her money in wasted advertising, and at the last minute, ignored her many advisors and went after Obama hard.
She must have had the same group of advisors who told Kerry to ignore the smearvets. Look how well they were for Kerry.
If HC wants to win, she has to keep on getting in BOs face. If she wins the election, she must continue to hammer McCain on his shortcomings.
I don't like her, but I like the idea of a Repub President even less.

Richardson campaign denies withdrawal report

My manager reminded me this morning of something termed "The Bradley Effect" when he and I were discussing the NH results. I had not heard of it but I'm sure the native Californian's here have.

http://slate.com/blogs/blogs/trailhead/a...

Bradley effect
n. the difference between the number of people who vote for a black candidate and those who say they will or would.

29.  Sea, a friend of mine was saying just that....that when the rest of American goes to vote they aren't going to vote for a woman or for a black man.  May be JRE's only hope. 

You know, at the end of the day we can blame the CM, Diebold, etc., but let's face.....waayyy too many people, in their ignorance, voted twice for GWB. 

More California poll results - a bit more current. Not lined up too well, sorry.

Democratic Presidential Nomination
Poll Date Sample Clinton Obama Edwards Spread
RCP Average 12/19 to 01/06 - 37.0 30.0 17.7 Clinton +7.0
USA Today/Gallup 01/04 - 01/06 499 A 33 33 20 Tie
Pew Research 12/19 - 12/30 556 RV 46 26 14 Clinton +20.0
Rasmussen (Wed) 4 Day Tracking 750 LV 32 31 19 Clinton +1.0

Yep they did vote for W twice, cc, which is why I was thrilled that my good friend, a staunch Republican and 2 time Bush voter, told me yesterday that she is backing Obama. She does not trust her party anymore. She has big bucks and sent in the max to Obama. I just about fell on the floor. She lives in Houston.

cC - Did you notice from the polling anaylses you posted that Obama received 10% more Indie votes? That bodes well for a general election. You can't just win with Dems.

43.

That's quite a spread, Denise.

But then we all know by now, we can't trust them.

So if BO's pollings numbers were fairly consistent, but HC's were very low, who made up the difference?  Where did HC get her votes?  Is there any theory?

Pundits refuse to look as the  possibility of voting fraud. 

SF Mayor was just on the local news.

Seems he is supporting Clinton. So is Feinstein. We shall see.

Sheesh, make up yer mind! :o)

Richardson to end presidential run

LOL Karen!

20.
Sam,
The research I did has been on the accuracy of exit polls, especially prior to 2000. Also about how Germany hand counts their ballots and the exit polls are within a fraction of a percent from the final tally.

Interestingly in NH last night, Barack did better where hand counting was done, Hillary where Diebold was in place...

http://tailrank.com/4562024/New-Hampshir...

33.cC,
If the exit polls are wrong on the winner, prolly wrong on these numbers too.

I received my ballot in today's mail. I'm going to wait until the weekend to mark it and might open a nice bottle of Chardonnay and make it a celebration.

Denise
Wed, 01/09/08

La Crema 2004, Sonoma Valley product. 

La Crema is awesome. I order it alot for my social events. Rombauer is incredible as well. And if I have extra cash, Cakebread.

I still say we should have DemFest in Napa or Sonoma Valley. It would be one big lovefest and no one would care who was speaking...LOL

I appreciate the tips and will see if they are available here.

One nice thing about global warming, it is turning West Michigan into the midwest Napa Valley. We have maybe two dozen really nice wineries. I cannot drink domestic red wine because the sulphates give me a head ache. But I can drink French and Italian red wines all day.
Fennvalley Winery, in the tiny town of Fennville, Mi makes a delightful red wine without sulphates. The also have a wide selection of whites, rose and fruit wines. We also have a lot of micro-brewries as Michiganders love their beers. There are winetasting events going on all year and beer-brewing-tasting contests for those who prefer their cereal with alcohol.

If you need some Cab and Merlot tips let me know. Any good wine store should carry those. Coppola makes some great wines, too, at a bit of a better price.

Jordan is also good. So is Kunde, Pineridge and J. Lohr

And I don't even drink that much LOL

dog,

My dad and aunt were born in Grand Haven and I still have many relatives in and around that area. Great wines there - just wonderful. Also a bit further south near Sawyer as I recall.

I think we may have discussed this before but Fricano's Pizza (Riverside Pizza in Grand Rapids) are my cousins.

What I'd give for one of these right now. 12 kids were raised from the original business on Washington Street in Grand Haven. My grandpa loaned them the seed money.

http://www.fricanospizza.com/pizza.htm

60,
I can't find a listing for it. I take it is on the Gtand River.

grand river

I love Napa Valley and might have to attend if we held Demfest there. I can be a designated driver lol.

I hope this doesn't sound racist, but among the things that happened on Monday (in addition to Hill crying lol) was they showed that clip of Obama's granny. Now I thought she was adorable and you could see the intelligence even tho she wasn't even speaking English HOWEVER if you were a casual observer/voter and you had/have accepted Obama is 'just a guy' which is very easy to do -- not see the race issue I mean -- then that clip of his granny brought it home -- one could no longer ignore Obama's blackness -- he's not just black -- he's OMG African! From Africa! To someone trying to see past or ignore his race, I can see where that clip might have affected the vote. This is spoken as one raised in the Deep South, come through de-segregation, etc, etc. So maybe whoever covered that story didn't have Obama's best interests in mind.

In my heart I'm blaming Diebold -- and the Clinton campaign was in a bind -- they HAD to win or Obama would be anointed.

I wonder if my cousin Doug closed it. There are other locations definitely worth the drive. I envy you!

I know where Fricanos Pizza is in Comstock Park. It is about 25 miles from our place and the next time we go there (the nearby PetCo has the only cat litter His Majesty will use) we will stop in.

I think the independents that were going to vote for Obama thought he was a shoe in and changed their minds and voted for McCain to make sure they knocked out Romney. But I wouldn't put cheating past the Clintons. How much they've changed over the years. I used to be huge fans of theirs. I remember in 1992 running from my office in Chicago's loop to attend their pep rally after he got the nomination. And then going to the convention. Happier times.

Good deal dog - tell them you know their cousin who now lives in California. I'm not sure who manages that one - lots of the "kids" started their own locations, but many are near retirement age and probably made enough to retire early.

I should call Doug and have him send me some Fed Ex. They heat up really well. They do ship all over the United States.

High winds knocked the power out...just came back on. Better go prepare things in case we have a night of it...
later all

Perhaps we could start with ethics in elections.

Intereting column in The Nation:

Where's the Beef?    [Andrew Cline]

Here's my insta-theory on Clinton's victory. New Hampshire voters were supposed to reject her because they can see through a phony and she's a phony. But New Hampshire voters are also very well informed on policy.
(Sorry, Michigan, it's true.) There is no question they gave Obama a serious listen. And compared to Clinton, they found him lacking substance. (I heard exactly this on Monday night from voter after voter leaving Clinton's Manchester rally — all of them saying she'd won them over that night.) Clinton ran on policy proposals — not always super-specific — but her stump speeches were more detailed than those of Obama, who offered inspiration but little else. Democrats heard Obama and said, "Where's the beef?" And Clinton was standing there with a big ole rump steak tied around her neck.

thenation.com

Oh, I forgot the link.

Clash Brews Within Democratic Party on Ethics
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/010908C.shtml
Susan Crabtree, reporting for The Hill, writes, "A handful of reform-minded freshman Democrats emboldened by a sense that 2008 voters want change and an end to the power of Washington special interests plan to press their case for stronger ethics enforcement when Congress returns later this month."

In the heat of the debate, Ms. Clinton said charges that she was less likeable than Mr. Obama "hurt my feelings." She followed up with a highly publicized display of emotion in a café the day before voting.

"Being able to also begin to talk about what motivates me, what gets me up in the morning, why I care about doing this work, you know, was very important to me," she said.

"And I had this incredible moment of connection with the voters of New Hampshire, and they saw it and they heard, and they gave me this incredible victory."

That Ms. Clinton recognized the impact of her moment of vulnerability in New Hampshire was evident yesterday when her campaign arranged a conference call with two female senators supporting her candidacy.

"[The incident] showed her humanity and real warmth," said Senator Dianne Feinstein of California.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=226444

What B.S.

71,
I have no doubt the voters in NH listened to HC policy proposals. If they did the tiniest amount of research, they would see very little difference between her and Obama on health care and the war. The rest of her platforms resembles what would normally be considered a moderate Republican platfrom. No doubt they listened. I thought they might be better informed. The only thing even considered a Democratic platform is her view on abortion.
So if anything, voters resisted change and want the standard triangulation, center cut nonsense they have been complaining about since Bubba won in 1992. They just need to be honest about it.

Bush's SOTU speech will be coming up soon. Wonder what kind of reception he'll receive or what he'll say.

I'm saying good night now -- rest well all.

9:48 PM ET

Or maybe the fact that HC is actually talking about the issues for a change and BO is still tap dancing on his vision message means voters want some issue discussions.

Feinstein wouldn't know warmth if she backed into a lit fireplace.

Thanks for the warning Annilow - good night!

And no, you did not sound racist.

I am probably too harsh on HC.
What most Senators do is jam a whole bunch of policy specific stuff into every possible conversation. The listeners eyes glaze over. Kerry did this and even his staunchest supporters like me fell asleep. BO knows this and probalby decided to go heavy on emotional involvement and then weave the policy stuff in. HC was doing her middle of the road tap dance and decided to go after BO hard. I think this change won for her. She is doing what Bubba did which is define your opponent and tell folks what things you will do and have done and what your opponent won't do. BO has to get back on the attack by telling voters the problems with HCs actions and platforms and how his will make folks better. Get the vision thing tied to his policies. HC got the discussion away from vision and emotion and back to policy. Her tears were real to show she really has emotions but probably won't flow again. Can you see her all teared up in a debate about Iraq with McCain?

From 'Stars and Stripes' -- a few comments from our troops on the candidates:

While a few already have settled on a candidate, most said they were undecided — at least to a degree.

“I’m going for Obama or Hillary,” said Tech. Sgt. Shanika McBride, 30, of Misawa Air Base, Japan. “They say what they mean. They stand for something. It’s time for a change anyway.”With a husband about to deploy, the war in Iraq is issue No. 1 for her.“Getting troops out of the war zone,” McBride said. “They need to come home to their families.”

Seaman Michellia Patton of Yokosuka Naval Base, Japan, also is torn between Clinton and Obama. But if it came down to it, she said, “I would rather see the first female president than the first black president. Women think differently than men do, and we need to make a change.”

Tech Sgt. Josue Rivera, 33, of Misawa Air Base, said he’s unsure if the country is ready for a female president, “but I am.” He’d be happy, however, with any of the Democratic candidates as president.

“We’re not allowed to really talk about it because we’re in the military, but a lot of people are really fed up with the situation,” he said. “It’s time for a change, somebody with new ideas.”

Others, like U.S. Forces Korea contractor Don Parker, are taking rhetoric about change with a grain of salt.  “Everybody is talking about change. Change what? Is it all just cosmetic surgery, or is it something the general populace can benefit from?” he asked. “If change is what we want, then why would we elect someone who’s been in the government for 30 years? We need someone new but not too new.”

Sasebo Naval Base, Japan, commissary contractor Elliot Jones said candidates are saying “what you want to hear, but the key is what they are going to do once you put them in office?.” With an active-duty wife, Jones is focused on the war in Iraq. He’s interested in Clinton and Obama, and, on the GOP side, former senator Fred Thompson.

night all..10:01 ESt here.

33.

This doesn't bode well for womens' intellect when they vote for a *gender* instead of a person. 

+++

I'm just curious -- what if Hillary were a black woman ?  Would woman voters, especially those over age 50, vote for her in the same numbers they are voting for her now ?

If voters had such a hard time choosing between HC and BO, it could mean that a lot of people don't like either one, since one is a white woman and the other a black man.  Or....becuz they couldn't tell the difference between them, policy wise. We already know that many men won't vote for her becuz she's a woman, which is sexist, and many people prolly won't vote for a black, which is racist.

And they wouldn't vote for Edwards becuz they really hadn't been paying much attention to his good ideas, plus nobody wants to vote for a guy who's behind in the *polls.*  They prolly still have the bitter taste of the Kerry fiasco in their mouths.  And many people do tend to live in the past.

So when push comes to shove, who can beat the war hero?/mongerer and sweet-talking fundi?

Only one person comes to mind.

Al Gore.  Perhaps we need to ramp up that movement again. 

Becuz now we're seeing how tough it's gonna be to take back the WH.  We need to nominate s/o who's mostly likely to beat the repugs and I don't think that'll be BO or HC.

Yea, people will say they'll vote for a woman or a black, but what happens when they can vote their prejudice in secret? 

Rove likes Obama?  Yea, right.  I can hear the smear machines grinding away now.

Also, lest we forget.  The last dem senator elected prez was JFK.

That makes JR even more electable and the dems look very self-destructive indeed.  

rd, to your hypothetical question...yes, I believe they would-for the same reasons that Mainefem has mentioned.  Her color definitely would not be a negative factor, imo...maybe even a plus.

"A handful of reform-minded freshman Democrats emboldened by a sense that 2008 voters want change and an end to the power of Washington special interests plan to press their case for stronger ethics enforcement when Congress returns later this month."

That should thoroughly embarass the corrupt leadership. Wait.....they're beyond shame.

Rove likes Obama?  Yea, right.  I can hear the smear machines grinding away now.

He only said he likes Hillary and Obama because he fears them. He'd much rather ply his toxic craft against the handsome flipflopper millionaire trial lawyer than the history making Afican American or woman. 

Yes, let's make it harder for the poor and people of color and the elderly to vote.  See a disenfranchising trend here? 

Court Seems to Back Indiana Voter ID Law
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/010908R.shtml
Mark Sherman of The Associated Press reports: "The Supreme Court appeared ready Wednesday to uphold the nation's strictest requirement that voters show photo identification before casting a ballot."
 

86.  Disagree, respectfully.  He'll clobber BO and HC. 

First, he'll use their senate votes to show how hypocritical they are and how they vote with the repugs.  Then he'll play the fear cards of race and sex.  IMO.

People want change, yes, but not too much too fast.  IMO. 

A Huffpo blogger on "change":

"What's pretty clear is that the American people are taking this process seriously. They want to bring about the fundamental change in how our politics works."

"Can Mr Obama be a little more specific on what changes he would make in 'how our politics works' and what methodology he would use?

If the fundamental change he is going to make is to have people be more polite and more civil, I think that might interfere with first amendment rights, but more power to him.

However, I never saw Emily Post as someone I would want to steer my country through even clear sailing waters, let alone the current maelstrom in which we find ourselves "

Rove - is out to pasture.  He always gets caught.  Or as George would probably say "his terds are no longer making blossoms".  Remember the book about Karl Rove?  Bush's BRAIN?....think about it. : )  However, he could be helping these guys.  uh, maybe not - they know if he's involved, people will pay no attention to them.

Trying to make a come-back:   The Swift Boaters are taking in large donations and getting ready to do their rat work in the next election.  Who supports them?   “The top three--Houston home builder Bob Perry, Texas oilman T. Boone Pickens and billionaire drugstore impresario and investor Harold Simmons--gave a combined $9.5 million.  Who are they donating to?

John McCain:  $61,650 from Swift Boat donors  …exceeded only by that of Mitt Romney, who has raked in $70,550. .  Giuliani ranks third in Swift Boat funding, with $47,950.  (*What?  None to McCain?)

“..the Swift Boaters aren't some kind of side show, a coterie of vicious mudslingers operating at the edges of respectability. They are the show. They are modern conservatism's core funders and beneficiaries. With conservatives staring straight into the abyss, their activities in this election cycle could very well make the Swift Boat smears look tame by comparison.  http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080107/hayes 

woops I meant - (none for Thompson?)

Back before bed time,
Sorry, but I think a photo-id is not too much to ask before voting. The argument to my own advice: it is so easy to get fake IDs.
When i was living in Phoenix, it wasn't uncommon for folks here illegally to have over two dozen high quality fake IDs.

Some People Made Big Money From Hillary’s Win. (Thanks to our media, Hillary’s odds were 100 to 1.)

Jan. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Hillary Clinton isn't the only person who won big in New Hampshire last night.   Online traders who placed a $100 bet on Clinton, the 60- year-old Democratic senator from New York, were rewarded with payoffs of as much as $10,000 after her upset victory over Barack Obama in the New Hampshire presidential primary, trading on Intrade, a Dublin-based online prediction market, indicated.

Her chances of winning in New Hampshire plummeted to a record low of 1 percent... http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aDwt8YHCf1kY&refer=home

 " Hillary Clinton had a connect moment, especially with women voters on Monday, when she let her guard down briefly.

She talked from the heart, on a more personal level, about her concerns regarding America's future.
She came across as warmer, caring, sincere, and human.
Sen Clinton said she was disturbed about the direction the country was heading after seven years of the Bush administration. 
Then she insisted we must reverse it. "

From
http://www.blogforamerica.com/browse

more precisely:
http://www.blogforamerica.com/view/23498

10:36 pm

82.

Yes, if her name was Oprah!

Otherwise, I couldn't say. I'm just surprised that woman are voting for HC because she's a woman. As I said upthread, doesn't bode well for womens' intellect.

88. Disagree, respectfully.  He'll clobber BO and HC.  

I was explaining why Rove had good words for Hillary and Obama. He wants to poison the minds of any Democratic primary voters foolish enough to pay him any heed.

(and rest assured, they're out there.) 

You should know what I think about "electable" and my refusal to speculate on who is or isn't. 

I'm just surprised that woman are voting for HC because she's a woman.

After NV and SC nobody will care why anybody voted for whom in NH. 

I know am acquainted with this Marine here in Massachusetts who will vote for 'Cain. But what is really interesting about this former Marine is that he wants Romney to stay in the race 'til the last state, so that he wastes more money in a losing bid.  Haha, people are cool.

10:50EST

I think a photo-id is not too much to ask before voting.

Apparently, some people think voting is a privilege like driving rather than a right like free speech. 

Since the beginning there have been those who want to restrict voting (such as to white male property owners). It's been a 220 year struggle to enact and enforce everyone's right to vote and it's still a long way from being over -- and sometimes even go backward as in this case.

10:53 pm

a friend of mine was saying just that....that when the rest of American goes to vote they aren't going to vote for a woman or for a black man.  May be JRE's only hope.

Democrats have been hostage to fear of the electorate for too long. They lose because they follow instead of lead.

Here are two intersting articles on the New Hampshire vote.  But there's no way the Republicans would 'fix' it for Hillary.   Unless they're trying a reverse-reverse psychology... Something tells me with the way they've mangled the country, the economy, the war, their elections in 2006 -- they're not up to a real winning strategy with anything.

NH - Where Paper Prevailed, Different Results - Dem

Abbie Hoffman - God Bless America       @       http://lilmikesf.blogspot.com/2007/10/war-its-side-effects.html

Kieth Olbermann showed tonight that the polls weren't really off in terms of Obama's percentage. It was Hillary's and Edwards' that were way wrong. It could just be that Hillary attracted a bunch of his voters at the last minute.

Sitka  - Democrats have been hostage to fear of the electorate for too long. They lose because they follow instead of lead...  

ummm... I want my leaders to 'follow the will of the American people'....

Democrats didn't lose in 2006.

Democrats didn't lose in 2000 --- the 'fix' was just barely caught in Florida, and the Republican Supremes 'appointed Bush'.

Kerry didn't lose in 2004 - the Diebold was working, as well as other dirty tricks.  One day it will all come out.  "At one point, at a certain time of the evening,  FIVE areas in Ohio all jumped up 5 % for Bush -- this is mathematically impossible.   Dan Rather, live on his microphone, saw the jump and mumbled... "Diebold".   and you know what they did to him.

Biggest trick the Republicans do is to keep saying 'we lost'... MORE Democrats than ever in history turned out to vote for Kerry.   More young people, too.  But you can't beat the machine, until you unplug it.

♥this is a test, just a test.................♥

you can't beat the machine, until you unplug it.

Ha, good one.

 Sitka noted, "Kieth Olbermann showed tonight that the polls weren't really off in terms of Obama's percentage."

And, I saw that as well.  I heard:

People polled before they vote were asked if they were ...don't quote me here, but they were asked someting like:

Were they

A. definitely committed

B. somewhat committed

C. not commited

And the contention was that voters made up their minds in the booth

And Kieth and his guest said that the media was generally lazy (my notion) about digging into the details on the polling data, which would/may have shed better light on the volatility of the voter.

11:15 EST

With Richardson out, I will have to pick a new candidate
on Feb 5.  It won't be Edwards.

Voters switched from JR to HC at the last minute.  You mean at the last Diebold minute?  What makes us think the Clintons wouldn't cheat?  Diebolds aren't just for repug victories.

I smell a rat.  Perhaps JR should demand a recount.  But how do you re-do a Diebold vote?

If this is what we have to look forward to, why even bother to vote?  The powers that control the Diebolds and the country will choose for us and then we'll all be doing what we're doing now.

Notice that is was *close* between HC and BO.

Can NH do a re-vote?

How convenient it is to lay it at the feet of the women who voted for almost tears.  

How come the gd Diebolds are still in operation?  Did we learn nothing?  

from icasualties:

09-Jan-2008 6 | US: 6 | UK: 0 | Other: 0

US NAME NOT RELEASED YET Diyala Province Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack (house borne)
US NAME NOT RELEASED YET Diyala Province Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack (house borne)
US NAME NOT RELEASED YET Diyala Province Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack (house borne)
US NAME NOT RELEASED YET Diyala Province Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack (house borne)
US NAME NOT RELEASED YET Diyala Province Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack (house borne)
US NAME NOT RELEASED YET Diyala Province Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack (house borne)

08-Jan-2008 3 | US: 3 | UK: 0 | Other: 0

US NAME NOT RELEASED YET Salah Ad Din Province Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fire
US NAME NOT RELEASED YET Salah Ad Din Province Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fire
US NAME NOT RELEASED YET Salah Ad Din Province Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fire

---------

Despite heavy losses in men and equipment, the guerrillas return even stronger.....

Gee, I keep forgetting

11:17 pm

I keep forgetting that there is no time machine here,
does that mean BFA beat the machine by unplugging it ? ~

Ronald Cloud~

My guess is it will be Clinton or Obama.

I say, with out knowing anything further about you that, you tilt toward Clinton.

Just a guess.

 I heard some pundit say that the pollsters were unorganized, totally.

She made it the pollsters fault. 

ummm... I want my leaders to 'follow the will of the American people'...

Politicians can't follow the will of the people. They can only govern by polls in that regard. In which case they aren't "leaders."

But they should remember and fulfill their promises to the people.

Democrats didn't lose in 2006.

Because they led. But since then they've cringed and followed Bush, and may yet lose what should be a slam dunk election for change. 

Democrats didn't lose in 2000

Yes. The presidential election was stolen (Gore was behind in the polls until he found his fire and started campaigning like a leader.)

But Congressional Democrats didn't win. They tied the Senate and lost the House after the GOP impeachment fiasco. Once again, they didn't lead but tried to back into power and failed until Jim Jeffords abandoned the GOP. But even they they complied with bush's every wish and even helped cover up the Enron scam.

Kerry didn't lose in 2004 

He campaigned like a loser once he secured the nomination. He spent the entire time reacting to Bush -- but not reacting to Rove's smears.

Biggest trick the Republicans do is to keep saying 'we lost'...

Biggest trick Dems do is to keep convincing people like you that they're leaders and winners and that they are even trying to enact what they promised. 

It seems the nomination was decided when several truly good candidates were expunged.

Now we're back to the lesser of evils, just where they've kept us for years.  

The RW controls the nominee by staying home from the polls cuz when they do that, they lose or the repugs have to cheat more.

We, OTOH, keep voting for hope and change and brains and promises and oratory and we keep losing.

We need to learn how to cheat better.  LOL

So all the polls were spot on except for Clinton.  What was the projection for JE? 

The CMWs left JE out of the NH equation and now I'm susicious as to why.  What he if was projected at 24 or 25?  Didn't anybody even  poll him and if not, why not?

The Clintons had enuf time to make mischief. 

So the big question is, was JE even polled? 

"...e made it the pollsters fault."

>

That way they can disregard the people and postulate whatever they freagin' want.

"That is a lovely suit"

_______

Madeleine Albright is on The Charlie Rose Show

speaking about the use of fear and it's value.

I'll be glad when NV amd SC happen so they conspiracy talk about NH will fade out.

Face it, Sea. Dem voters didn't want Edwards in 2004 and they don't want him now. 

3921

You're not the only one, Sitka.

He had his chance. You should have seen him at DemFest. So freaking fake. And he practically ran from the stage after Sal asked him why we should vote for him after dumped all over Howard. He really cut it short.

steve allen - MAH MAH LIMBO - STEVE ALLEN        http://hypem.com/list/254

http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2008/01/the-steve-allen.html

Hi Folks,

Just returned from an organizing meeting in Fort Collins for Betsy Markey running against Marilyn Musgrave.  There were anywhere from 65 people to 80 or so.  The organization was excellent, and the level of people's skills very high.  The meeting divided us into four different groups, and I chose blogging and writing letters to the editor.  Yea, I don't have to walk and knock on doors or phone people, though I will if I'm needed.

I love this place. There were people in their teens and all the age groups up to 75 or so.  The house was packed.  This will be the Democrats' year if we don't blow it.  The enthusisam, the sign up sheets, the organization, the strategies, and the young people who are on the staff.  It was good, very very good, and I am enthusiastic.

I also met the organizer in Fort Collins for Barack Obama.  I told him I would work for Obama, that I believe he's the best candidate in my estimation and that we need him very much.  He invited me to the headquareters, but I said I couldn't come tonight, then how about tomorrow night, no, but here's my email, phone, and address.  The enthusisam is like mist, everywhere you can feel it. 

Friday night we go to train for caucuses in Estes Park.  I tell you, the air is alive with commitment and energy, and willingness to work.  We were cautioned to be absolutely honest, not to make up anything, not to do anything that would be questionable, and to provide the grassroots efforts that move people.

All I can say, is thank you Howard Dean.  You started all this, and it is reaping benefits.   And sigh, I've loved Eugene McCArthy and Howard Dean.  I hope my committing to Barack Obama isn't a jinx.  So far, I've never had a candidate win except for Jimmy Carter and Clinton, who I feel very much let down by.  I don't like his dishonesty, the fact that he distorted Obama's reply to the question of how he didn't know wheher he would have voted for the Iraq Resolution.  So, we're determined to be honest, transparent, prepared for all the skullduggery, proactive in terms of what the attacks may be, because it's generally believed the Republicans have no stops whatsoever and will do anything to win.

But, tonight was a delight, to see the variety of people, the high level of talents and experience, and the commitment to win.  By the way, it was the better educated, the more afflent who voted for Barack Obama in New Hampshire.  It was the older, less educated who chose Hillary Clinton, and there are more of them.  But, isn't one of the values of this country to aspire to a better life, a more knowledgable and richer understanding of what it is to be a part of community of the the world, of the planet?  So, yes, I have hope and it is as wide as it can possibly be interpreted.

Night good friends. 

Applause for Pat - way to go! Great write up, no matter who you would have decided to support.

This is the kind of action needed everywhere. Thank you Howard, indeed.

Getting older, getting wiser (?),

you see things clearer

Finally, you can see your own failings~ What a relief!

I only know Edwards' record somewhat. But I don't think that's why he's never gotten traction with Dem voters (I don't think he's ever even led in a poll.) They must see something like what you described. 

11:53 pm

It is cumbersome to substitute the time machine.

Hey sunlight :)

What's shakin' in Vermont? I'm enjoying the evening cuz tomorrow night I have to go to an awards reception and it's a dressy affair that will go a bit late into the night. Unless I can sneak out.

107.

Sitka
Wed, 01/09/08


Kieth Olbermann showed tonight that the polls weren't really off in terms of Obama's percentage. It was Hillary's and Edwards' that were way wrong. It could just be that Hillary attracted a bunch of his voters at the last minute


It seems someone must have been confused, because they didn't show poll numbers for John Edwards for you to make that kind of leep. They didn't show anything with John Edwards on pre polling exececpt, What percentage could change their vote.

Obama 23
Edwards 30

That was not vote totals for John Edwards.

Hey, thanks Denise for the compliment.  Now off to bed for sure.  I'm useless past 9 PM or so.

denise, you do a lot of barking, but your bite is gums only. you think you have it all figured out, but you don't know squat.

hillary counrty? what a joke.

exactly which party position have you run for and been elected to?

how many doors do you knock for a candidate? how many phone calls?

you dare to deride me for my "crappy attitude." who, exactly do you think you are? not my mom. not my boss. not anything.

frankly, and especially after your treatment of me in san diego, piss off. and i truly mean that. you're mean, and you act like it someone else's fault.

it would be extremely ok if you didn't bother to reply to this or any other remark i might make in the future.

ok, then. and, btw, i fully expect some "intelligent" rebuttal from you which i will scroll....

Good report, Pat. You give hope.

Would someone please tap Chris Mathews on the shoulder and say 'HEY DUMMY - REMEMEBER THIS!?".... as he 'insists' that this is the 'first time' exit polls have been this wrong....and he thinks - there's a 'culprit'.     yeah right.

Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen?

Exit Polls, Election Fraud, and the Official Count : Joel Bleifuss, Steve Freeman

On the afternoon of election day 2004, the world was abuzz with the news: exit polls indicated that John Kerry would decisively win the election and become the next president of the united states. That proved not to be the case.

According to the official count—the number of votes tallied, not necessarily the number of votes cast—George W. Bush beat Kerry by a margin of three million votes. (The prediction was that Kerry would win by 5 million).

by U.S. Representative John Conyers

 I guess Chris might have been 'too young to remember'.  : )  Might have been good if he had made this much fuss then.

Gee, no one mentioned the other piece on Keith about the Campaign trying to use race as a reason why they may have lost votes and that Craig Crawford is concerned they may playing that to try to drum up support for South Carolina.

...Maybe Edwards numbers will surge with all this negative talk and distortions.

Well, I like you very much, mprov. 

oh mprov your usual charming self I see :)

How becoming

Same advice as last night to you.

It seems someone must have been confused, because they didn't show poll numbers for John Edwards for you to make that kind of leep. They didn't show anything with John Edwards on pre polling exececpt, What percentage could change their vote.

I remember Edwrads polling in the low 20's and Hillary in the high 20's/low 30's. Take the 6% he really didn't get at 17% and move them to Hillary and the results become plausible.

One thing's for sure. Complaining about it sure isn't going to change anything. The circus has already moved to the next town. 

Gee, what the hell has gotten into you? I have no idea what you are talking about. The only impression I get is that you are pissed at Denise.

But I can't figure out why.

122.

Sitka
Wed, 01/09/08



I'll be glad when NV amd SC happen so they conspiracy talk about NH will fade out.

Face it, Sea. Dem voters didn't want Edwards in 2004 and they don't want him now.

________________________

Sadly they didn't want Governor Dean either. ... As the media was trying to kill him off....they were doing with Clinton, as they did with the other candidates. But Clinton beat them.

Lawrence ODonnell confessed the media loaded up in Clinton's room with glee waiting for the implode. And the MEDIA was shocked that her win.

I wonder when people will decide they really want to be the ones choosing their candidate, instead of being told who to select.

sunlight no need to get involved - I could say more but this is not the place. Just ignore going forward.

143. just proves your arrogance. piss off...

12:07 pm

Video: the vegetable orchestra       Vegetable Orchestra       http://elbo.ws/

Get a sponsor

sunlight, stay out of it...

...Maybe Edwards numbers will surge with all this negative talk and distortions.

The last time Edwards surged he wound up right where he started. 

I want him to stay in at least so the people like you and Sea who like him get to vote for him, but he's a dog that's never hunted and in all likelyhood never will. 

Thanks. Good advice.

Now 147 good advice.

denise just left a message on my answering machine "...keep it up buddy and i'll be calling the cops..."

I heard an interesting pice of exit polling today that said Edwards came in dead last among low income voters. Apparently his "fight for you" son of a mill worker schtick didn't take with them.

Okay, going forward one needs to know where you are now.

12:13 am

Like I said, Mark, get a sponsor.

http://www.svl.ch/CrawlAnalysis/

hey, do you think she is going mad?

Sadly they didn't want Governor Dean either. ...

I admire Dean's sense in not running again this time. Maybe in some future election perhaps, but he was clearly rejected and it's best to let memories fade. 

I can see why Edwards thought the fact he was a VP nominee might help him, but he's never gotten traction from that either. 

Well, all I know is that I'm mad.

I keep forgetting to invoke the timestamp. 12:20 am

That's just madness.

160

I think that's good advice to let memories fade. It will be interesting to see what Howard has to say down the road about the exit polls. The next primary will be very interesting. At least we know that our votes will mean something once ours rolls around.

"Ronald Cloud~My guess is it will be Clinton or Obama.
I say, with out knowing anything further about you that, you tilt toward Clinton.
Just a guess."

Howard Dean's not on the ballot.
Al Gore's not on the ballot.
Richardson has withdrawn.

I did post earlier about The Atlantic Monthly coming out strong for
Obama in the December 07 issue.

Shortcut to: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200712/obama

Shortcut to: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200712/clinton-obama

The Atlantic has evolved into Corporate America's voice of
intelligence.  It came out early for Kerry last time.
In that post I remarked that  - 
" Obama's image, for the moment, seems to have a magic
mirror effect - people look into it and see what they
wish for." 
That observation applied to progressives as well as to
 the corporate greed enablers.

It is down to HRC and BHO.

It would not have been good for either of them to be anointed
without a real contest.

For now, count me undecided between the two.

I think the Clintons could help themselves if they made a big
public show of how things in the Democratic Party have changed
for the better with HD's 50 state strategy (see 2006 mid terms).
As a meaningful and committed demostration of their new found
Democratic-ness, HRC could pledge to forego the traditional
Presidential perogative to appoint a new Chair of the DNC.
She, and Senator Obama as well, could commit to leaving that
decision to the members of the DNC.

RC


 

NY Mayor Bloomberg weighs 2008 run (AP)

>

I won't vote for him.  Best he will do is take votes away from a Repuglickan.  JMO.

At least John Edwards, a southern boy in New Hampshire, did a lot better this time than in 2004.


And, it seems John Edwards numbers were the ONLY consistent ones.

1/7/08
In the Democratic Primary, Obama (35 percent) leads Clinton (34 percent), John Edwards (15 percent) and Bill Richardson (3 percent). Eleven percent were undecided.
http://suffolk.edu/26043.html

1/7/08
CNN/WMUR poll, Obama is favored by 39% of likely Democratic primary voters, 30%
favor Clinton, 16% favor former North Carolina Senator John Edwards, 7% prefer New Mexico Governor Bill
Richardson,

1/8
Zogby
Democrats – NH Tracking
1/5-1/7
Clinton
29%
Obama
42%
Edwards
17%

Face it, Sea. Dem voters didn't want Edwards in 2004 and they don't want him now."

He was marginalized in 04 and I'm sad to admit that I also called him the Breck girl.  That said, had Kerry not been crowned by the IA voters who were desperate for a winner,.....who knows?  I would have voted for Edwards just to keep Kerry from winning.

I'm really tired of voting for s/o just to prevent s/o else I don't like from  being elected.  This lesser of 2 evils has to stop.  Take the millions out of campaigning and we may see a good candidate.

****************

Sam, thanks for pointing out that kind of elitist talk.

Ronald Cloud

>

Good thinking.  We shall see w/not the Clintons can come through.  Your points might well help Hillary.  Werwy interwesting.

http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200801/20080109.html

Tavis Smiley

Guests : Bill Bradley

Bill Bradley is one of the first pro-athlete-turned-politicians. He's a three-time basketball All-American and Olympic gold medalist who played 10 years with the NBA's New York Knicks. He's also a Rhodes Scholar and served three terms in the U.S. Senate. In '00, he made a run at becoming the Democratic Party's nominee for president. He's also author of several best-selling books, including The New American Story. Bradley is managing director at Allen & Company and hosts the American Voices radio show.

Lupe Fiasco

Mogul Jay-Z calls rapper Lupe Fiasco a breath of fresh air. Known for thought-provoking lyricism, Fiasco is a Chicago native and devout Muslim who was exposed to many different cultures as a child. He began taking his craft seriously at age 17 and went from underground phenomenon to mainstream success. His new release, the concept CD "The Cool," is a follow-up to his Grammy-nominated debut, "Food & Liquor." Fiasco is also co-founder and VP of 1st & 15th, a record label under Atlantic Records.

He was marginalized in 04 and I'm sad to admit that I also called him the Breck girl.

He's always had a fair shot as any. The voters just haven't wanted him and the results prove it. 

I never called him the Breck girl. I opposed his record then as I do know.

sorry, but i'm not through with this yet...

denise calls my home and threatens me with police interdiction.

for, what? what harm have i done her? have i made any threats? no. i've only asked to be left alone without her snide remarks. seems that's a call for having a "sponsor.?" still don't get that one.

anyway, denise don't call my phone number, don't email me, don't address me on this board...pretty simple.

There's another big difference between BO and JE.  BO tells people what they long, desperately, to hear.  It's like he's the savior and the people are starving. 

JE tells them what the heck is wrong with this country and what he intends to do to fix it.   He's no nonsense  and grit.

I like that. 

Again, IMO, he's the least objectionable of the 3.  Not a strong endorsement, but I didn't have a choice yet...and still may not...

We will see. 

At least John Edwards, a southern boy in New Hampshire, did a lot better this time than in 2004.

In 2004 he got 12%. In 2008 he got 17%.

In 2004 Kerry got 39% and in 2008 Clinton the same.

At 5% increase per year, Edwards will get 39% in......... 2024.

Well, I gotta hit the hay, as I need to awake @ 3:30 PST

So, night all you good folks.  Really.  You are good.  Do good.

Night.

12:40 EST

Don't forget, Folks.  Tonight Stewart and Colbert are on with the NH results.  Should be good.

Maybe the Swiftboaters are getting ideas from reading this blog. LOL 

Thx for the reminder, Sea. Should be on here soon!

Hey Sitka.....if they have 'hundreds' of feet and they cluck -- are they chickens?  Not necessarily.  It could be the entire Republican Congress in chicken suits....and they are.  The enemy is 'Bush' and his clones, i.e., McCain, Romney and Giuliani.  Who do we vote for?  Any Democrat that's still breathing.  IN FACT...even if they're NOT breathing, like when Ashcroft was running for office - we voted in a dead Democrat.

We need to make a big stink about this.

* ************************

I knew it, I knew it, I knew it................I knew it HAD to be election fraud.........let the election season fraud begin.New Hampshire Election Fraud: Hillary LOST the paper ballot count but WON the optical scan ballot count. Obama WON the paper ballot count but LOST the optical scan ballot count.

2008 New Hampshire Democratic Primary Results --Total Democratic Votes: 286,139 - Machine vs Hand (RonRox.com) 09 Jan 2008
Hillary Clinton, Diebold Accuvote optical scan: 39.618%
Clinton, Hand Counted Paper Ballots: 34.908%
Barack Obama, Diebold Accuvote optical scan: 36.309%
Obama, Hand Counted Paper Ballots: 38.617%
Machine vs Hand:
Clinton: 4.709% (13,475 votes)
Obama: -2.308% (-6,604 votes)

2008 New Hampshire Republican Primary Results --Total Republican Votes: 236,378 Machine vs Hand (RonRox.com) 09 Jan 2008
Mitt Romney, Diebold Accuvote optical scan: 33.075%
Romney, Hand Counted Paper Ballots: 25.483%
Ron Paul, Diebold Accuvote optical scan: 7.109%
Paul, Hand Counted Paper Ballots: 9.221%
Machine vs Hand:
Romney: 7.592% (17,946 votes)
Paul: -2.112% (-4,991 votes)I knew there was something a bit fishy about Hillary winning New Hampshire.

John's a nice enough guy. Not sure why he hasn't gotten more traction. But it's still early. Anything can happen. I think we'll be hearing more about issues as the weeks go by and we get closer to Super Tuesday. Such a mess to sort out; no simple sollutions.

And the percentages didn't move all night - that 3 point difference was odd, as tho the machines were set to do that.

It was called quickly and BO conceded quickly but it didn't sound like a concession.  That's strange too. 

btw, i've saved that very "special" answering machine message in mp3 format for storage.

Denise, I think the powers that be don't want him to have traction - just like Dean - since they want it to come down to a HC/BO ticket.

Damn, I don't like that chill up my spine.

New York City’s billionaire mayor, the recently declared “Independent” Michael Bloomberg, was among the guests in Norman, Oklahoma on Sunday evening at a intimate dinner that included notables both Democratic (former Senators David Boren, Sam Nunn, Bob Graham and Charles S. Robb) and Republican (former Governor and Bush Administration defector Christie Todd Whitman and Senators Chuck Hagel and John Danforth).

It had been advertised as the kickoff to a conference to strategize ways to end “partisan polarization” and originally included something of a threat – that deep-pockets Bloomberg might decide to run for president as an Independent if the two major parties didn’t find a way to “end Washington gridlock” and “get our political system back the way we’d like to see it.” The press showed up en masse because of the possibility of a Bloomberg run though all present, including the mayor, did their best to discount that possibility – at least for the moment. Indeed, as the New York Times reported, the current success of centrist progressive and post-partisan sounding Barak Obama may have pre-empted the aspirations of the billionaire mayor and left him little turf on which to build a political platform.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_cynthia__080108_that_meeting_in_okla.htm 

Sea, as you know, the best way to take it is one day at a time.

I wish we could all go back to paper ballots, or like in the old days when we would either pull a lever or turn down one of the little notch thingies (going way back here).

Some kind of receipt to go home with that has your actual vote recorded for proof.

I think we'll be hearing more about issues as the weeks go by and we get closer to Super Tuesday.

It think the gentle and friendly time for issues has past. From here on it will be mud and manipulation. 

Such a mess to sort out; no simple sollutions.

It's not difficult if you just vote for the one whose record and proposals are closest to your opinions and forget about the distractions and distortions. 

The 5 issues our 3 cands. are not talking about...except JE and the first.

Here are five categories that no major candidates have addressed specifically. The five categories listed have been the subject of numerous articles written by people from all walks of life. While we are in the heat of the Primary season in the Presidential campaigns, I believe it is important not to overlook these issues. This may be our only opportunity to get the right person for the job of President before we lose our representative republic forever.

1. The corporate hold on the American political system.

While some candidates decry the way that corporations have managed to control who gets nominated and thus elected, there is no candidate that speaks about how this nation can rid itself from corporate influence. Some candidates allude to the fact that corporate forces including the mainstream media that is owned by a small number of individuals and corporations including General Electric and Westinghouse as well as individuals such as Rupert Murdock and corporatists such as Mitt Romney (Whose company owns a controlling interest in Clear Channel Communications), they have not proposed anything to rectify the situation. The corporate PAC’s and the corporate donations through “bundling” have a stranglehold on Congress that has become accustomed to relying on this money to fund their multi-million dollar campaigns. Between controlling the media and the purse strings for campaign money, they have effectively become the deciding arbiter of who runs for office and who doesn’t. Meanwhile there isn’t a candidate that has proposed anything to stop the corporate excesses from continuing.

2. The erosion of our civil liberties.

In this particular area of American life, nothing has been as dramatic as our loss of civil liberties. We have had a President in office that has thought nothing of using electronic surveillance on American citizens without going through a secret FISA Court that was expressly set up so that the Federal Government could monitor conversations that could affect our national security as long as the government requested a warrant 90 days after the fact! Yet this President could not even do that and Congress still has failed to address this issue. Not one of the candidates has decried the use of electronic “eavesdropping” on American citizens. This isn’t the only case of our civil liberties being usurped. A National ID Card is scheduled to be implemented in May of this year. Now, as Americans we must prove to any government official that we are American citizens and that we have a right to be here. The Military Commissions Act of 2006 takes away the writ of Habeas Corpus from any individual suspected of being a terrorist. The Patriot Act allows the home of anyone suspected of being a terrorist to be searched without the presence of the occupant and without even telling the occupant that their home was searched. The Warner Defense Bill (The revamped Insurrection Act) takes the power of the States National Guards away from the Governors of the States by the President to be used as law enforcement in violation of posse comitatus, thereby letting the National Guards of each State to be used against the people in the event of martial law. Presidential Signing Statements in which the President has the ability to only follow those bills in which he signs into law that he agrees with. First Amendment Zones that are roped of or fenced areas that people are allowed to demonstrate in that are mostly away from sight of the media or the participants of the event that is being demonstrated against, effectively muzzling Americans First Amendment rights.

3. The Military Industrial Complex

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_timothy__080109_the_issues_the_candi.htm 

183

Yes it really is that simple, Sitka. I have my mind made up but for others it's obviously not that easy of a choice.

At our meeting tonight they still have not decided if we are going to endorse anyone. The group of about 25 are leaning toward Obama, but there were many Edwards supporters as well.

I'm working for a guy who is running for state assembly in my district. The incumbent termed out. More door knocking this weekend.

Just bring these 3 to my local whatever and I'll ask these 5 questions.

The scary thing is:  why didn't IA and NH ask these questions?  Or did they and  the CMWs ignored the answers.

Oops, sorry.  That was a bit long.  And it's so interesting I got carried away.

...let me see if i've got this right...i disagree with how i've been treated...i get a phone call threatening me with police action...others on the blog think i'm an ass...and i'm suppopsed to think that every thing's normal/ hmmm.

well.....see ya...no point in hanging out with slackers...

I scrolled upthread and just don't get what this is all about. But then, it's really none of my business. I just hope you'll come back and post again.

I don't get why people are getting so angry at each other. It may be because I don't have a horse in the race this time. 

From the "Horse's Mouth".....Rasmussen

And Edwards lost votes to Hillary because:  "Edwards offered little sympathy and pounced on the opportunity to question Clinton's ability to endure the stresses of the presidency. "I think what we need in a commander-in-chief is strength and resolve, and presidential campaigns are tough business, but being president of the United States is also tough business"  ....Which the media played over and over again....

The 5 issues our 3 cands. are not talking about...except JE and the first.

When Edwards talks about the erosion of civil liberties, does he remind people he voted for the Patriot Crap Act? And if so, does he follow with another apology?

Sitka, I'm not angry at anyone, just to be clear. That came out of the blue and given distance and proximity, I don't take chances. I take action, if needed.

I'm not angry with you mprov.  Please return.

Sitka, everybody's mad at you!  LOL 

Civil liberties have not been addressed in the debates.  That's what the article was all about. ...the 5 things none of them are talking about.

LOL Seashell - there is room here for all of us slackers!

As Charlie Brown would say, good grief. Lucy must have taken away the football one too many times.

Some good news

A federal appeals court gave San Francisco the green light Wednesday to require employers to help pay for health care for uninsured workers and residents, and it signaled that it is likely to uphold the city's groundbreaking universal coverage law.
A three-judge panel of the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals allowed San Francisco to enforce its law and extend coverage to all uninsured adults while the city appeals a federal judge's decision striking down a key funding provision.
That provision requires large and medium-size companies to offer insurance to their employees or pay a fee to the city for the cost of their coverage. The court said the city probably would win its argument that U.S. District Judge Jeffrey White was wrong when he ruled Dec. 26 that local governments lack the power to force employers to contribute to a health care program.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...

Sheesh, why are these threads so long?

*****
I didn't post at all yesterday because the two threads that I saw were either 200+ or 300+. This one is rapidly becoming 200+ but I am going to post here today.

*****
mprov ... I'm with Sitka. Please come back!

*****
Interesting telephone discussion with our daughter yesterday ... she and her mother (my husband's ex with whom I am on very good terms ... I met him seven years after their marriage was history) are both Hillary backers, and enthusiastically so. I was surprised by our daughter only because I thought that she would be supporting Kucinich or Obama. Her mother has not voted for a Democratic Presidential candidate since JFK and calls herself an Indie. Both spent many years working in construction, however, and respect Hillary for the way that she is "taking on" the males.

Don't underestimate the power of gender ... but that is not all that Hillary's support is about.

But I was very surprised.

Jonathan Freedland has an interesting take on Hillary's rebound. I hope that this is not a correct prediction. As DU cogently puts it "McCain is batshit crazy." Sheesh.

But then, when you think about it, all of the Republics are in one way or another.

===================
Clinton's amazing comeback could yet crown McCain
A dramatic 24 hours gives Hillary a great boost, but would she beat the Republicans' resurgent veteran?
Jonathan Freedland
Thursday January 10, 2008
The Guardian

He was talking about moviemaking, but William Goldman's adage now officially holds true for American politics too: no-one knows anything. It's not just the pollsters and pundits who believed Hillary Clinton was on her way to defeat in New Hampshire: she believed it too. What happened instead was a turnaround on a Truman-defeats-Dewey scale. When New Hampshire anointed Bill Clinton as the Comeback Kid in 1992, he only came second. Hillary turned an expected double-digit defeat into a win.

It leaves entirely wide open not only who will be elected president in November, but who the two antagonists will be. For the first time, the traditional contests in Iowa and New Hampshire have produced four different winners: Clinton and Barack Obama for the Democrats, and John McCain and Mike Huckabee for the Republicans. There are other plausible candidates still in the field.

It means the two parties are engaged in a kind of double blind-date. Democrats and Republicans are picking a candidate with no idea who that person will face come November. In 2004 Democrats knew they needed someone to take on George Bush and that fact led, in part, to their selection of John Kerry. Now both sides are squaring up against a question mark.

[...]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/...

So, I was the one to cross the dreaded 200 mark ... sorry, dialer-uppers.

HQ ... is anyone home? Where is Sheri?

**********
The British government is actually accepting this figure. That means that the actual toll is probably higher.

What a tragedy ... and the great putz is currently in the ME.

===========
151,000 civilians killed since Iraq invasion
· Figures up to June 2006 from household survey
· Government accepts new estimate on death toll
Sarah Boseley, health editor
Thursday January 10, 2008
Guardian

An estimated 151,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed in the violence that has engulfed the country from the time of the US-led invasion until June 2006, according to the latest and largest study of deaths officially accepted by the Iraqi government.

The figures come from a household survey carried out by the World Health Organisation and the Iraqi health ministry. They are substantially lower than the 601,027 death toll reported by US researchers in 2006 in the Lancet using similar study methods, but higher than the Iraq Body Count's (IBC) register - based on press reports - of 47,668.

The authors of the WHO/Iraqi study, published last night in the New England Journal of Medicine, say that the new number, which could be anywhere between 104,000 and 223,000 allowing for misreporting, "points to a massive death toll in the wake of the 2003 invasion and represents only one of the many health and human consequences of an ongoing humanitarian crisis".

The Iraqi health minister, Dr Salih Mahdi Motlab Al-Hasanawi, said it was very important for the government to have reliable data on violent deaths. "There is controversy about reports from the media," he said. Some of the information that has been published "may be used or misused for political reasons and so on". The survey also collected data on the health of the population and availability of healthcare needed by the government.

The survey from the Iraqi Family Health Survey Group was carried out by trained employees of the health ministry who visited 10,860 households - 10 from each of more than 1,000 clusters across the 18 provinces of Iraq. Because of the insecurity, 115 (11%) of the clusters could not be visited - mostly in Anbar and Baghdad - so calculations were made to account for the probable number of deaths in those places. Researchers asked heads of households if there had been any deaths in the two years before or three years after the invasion in 2003.

[...]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,33201...

Did the much vaunted encounter with Iran in the Persian Gulf over the weekend actually happen?

Iran says not.

Both sides are credibility-challenged, I'm afraid.

========================
US warns Tehran against further clashes amid claims that boat footage was faked
Ian Black, Middle East editor
Thursday January 10, 2008
Guardian

Iran was given another stern warning by George Bush yesterday of "serious consequences" if it attacked US ships in the Gulf, as Tehran angrily accused Washington of faking evidence of an incident last weekend.

The US president made the comments at a news conference in Israel, during a visit in which his hosts will be emphasising their concerns about Iran's nuclear ambitions. Tensions with Iran are also expected to figure prominently in Bush's tour of the Gulf states.

"My advice to them is don't do it," Bush said. "We have made it clear publicly and they know our position, and that is there will be serious consequences if they attack our ships, pure and simple."

According to Washington, in Sunday's incident, Iranian Revolutionary Guard speedboats approached and threatened three US navy vessels in the Straits of Hormuz - a strategic choke point for western oil supplies. "This was a very provocative act by the Iranians and could have and came very close to resulting in an altercation," said Stephen Hadley, the US national security adviser.

[...]
Iran said yesterday that the material was fake and accused the US of deliberately stoking tensions. "The footage released by the US navy was compiled using file pictures and the audio has been fabricated," a Revolutionary Guard official was quoted as saying by the state-run Press TV.

[...]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,33201...

Juan Cole's tour d'horizon: incredulity about McCain as an *anti-war* candidate and what's happening in Iraq that we don't generally get in US MSM.

===============
Wednesday, January 09, 2008
McCain Republicans' anti-War Candidate;
Sunnis Fear Return of Baghdad Violence;

In the US, here is an irony. John McCain, "Mr. Surge," who dreams of a century-long US occupation of Iraq, was the anti-war candidate for Republicans in Iowa. Yes:

[...]
Back in the real world, in Iraq:

Al-Sharq al-Awsat reports in Arabic that the Iraqi Accord Front [Sunni fundamentalist] has expressed severe anxiety about the return of violence to Baghdad neighborhoods, the targeting of members of the Awakening Councils, and the failure of the Nuri al-Maliki government to provide the latter with sufficient security.

The United Nations High Commission on Refugees is seeking over $200 million to alleviate the suffering of displaced Iraq. The US Congress should fund this initiative.

[...]
http://www.juancole.com/2008/01/mccain-r...

Olmert still will not commit to scaling back or ceasing settlements altogether on the Occupied Territories.

dog soldier: your comments about the I-P situation are right on, as so many of your comments about the global situation generally are, IMO.

=================
Differing opinions fail to dent Israel's love affair with Bush
By Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem
Published: 10 January 2008

The Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, declared last night that Israel reserved the right to expand existing Jewish settlements in Arab Jerusalem and in parts of the West Bank that it hopes to retain in any final peace deal.

In terms which appeared to defy earlier sharp criticism by the US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, Mr Olmert made it clear in front of President George Bush that he regarded such expansion as outside the "moratorium" he has promised on new settlement building. His declaration came as the US President, on his first visit in office to Israel, used some of his strongest language yet in demanding the dismantling of separate settlement outposts which are illegal even under Israeli law. Mr Bush said at a joint news conference last night: "We have been talking about it for four years – illegal outposts. They ought to go."

Mr Olmert did not demur from that and repeatedly emphasised that Israel was very serious about advancing a negotiating process over the coming year. Mr Bush said the resumption of formal negotiations between Mr Olmert and the Palestinian President, Mahmoud Abbas, presented a historic moment, a historic opportunity.

[...]
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/midd...

This is an interesting issue to be *at war* about.

*******
This is the last for now.

For the want of a new thread ...

===============
Evolutionists at war over altruism's origins
By Steve Connor, Science Editor
Published: 10 January 2008

An intellectual war of words has broken out between two of the world's leading evolutionists. Oxford University's Richard Dawkins and Harvard's Edward Wilson have gone head to head over the evolution of altruism in the animal kingdom, and whether it can have come about as a result of something called group selection.

The subject matter of their dispute is social insects, particularly ants, which display a supreme form of altruism in that sterile workers lay down their lives for the benefit of their fertile colleagues in the colony.

Conventional Darwinian theory could not really explain why one individual should sacrifice its own life, and its precious genes, for the benefit of another individual, unless it could be viewed in terms of group selection, when indi-viduals do it for the benefit of the colony or the species.

[...]
http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/a...

Good morning, everybody

I've got to write a piece on the petty potentate's stool but wanted to check in here first.

The argument over selfish or altruistic genes always strikes me as silly.  Evolution doesn't work on an individual level, it's the cululative effect of changes that counts.  Besides, most organisms have lots more genes than they actually need and lots more behaviors that prove beneficial or not in the long run.  And to top it all off, I'd argue that most species are actually responsible for their own eventual extinction and it's only the most peculiar outliers that surivive drastic environmental changes.  On the other hand, since reproduction is itself a dangerous function, those that don't reproduce are more likely to guarantee the survival of the species, especially in species where the reproductive function is prompted by non-reproductive behavior.

I've long thought that male humans are hung up on reproduction as a beneficial function because, while they recognize that the survival of their genetic heritage in the species depends on it, they're excluded from the process.  Because they can't do it, they think reproducing is a great experience, even if there's every indication that it isn't.  Women, on the other hand, are somewhat reluctant, even when they've done it, to admit that it's a bad experience because it suddenly alerts them to what their own mothers had to go through to give birth and that's life-changing.  Most humans, probably because memory doesn't become active until about the age of two, are inclined to think that they arrived on this earth on their own hook.  The world begins when they begin to notice it.  And, unless someone bothers to tell them different, there's no reason for them to think otherwise.  Indeed, there's that tribe in the Amazon which has no consciousness of the past at all.  They exist entirely in the present. 

It's easy for McCain to be anti-war because the war has been over for a long time and he's looking towards a future of peaceful occupation.  After all, how many millions did we kill with those atomic bombs over Japan?  And, haven't they been willing to host us for fifty+ years?  If you believe that American domination of the other nations on the globe is right and good and that the example of Iraq will prompt other nations to "behave," then the U.S. as a peace-monger is entirely credible.

Remember, the symbol of the "peace is out profession" crowd is the mushroom cloud.  They are absolutely convinced that atomic superiority is the key to world peace, regardless of how many people are being killed. 

It all depends on the assumptions or prejudices you bring to an issue.

That's the essence of the "faith-based" existence.  Belief comes first and reality has to be conformed.  If experience conflicts with expectations, then the experience, or your perception of it, is flawed. 

200.  The problem arises from the fact that there's an inappropriate assignment of agency going on here.  None of the candidates actually DID anything.  In New Hampshire they couldn't even cast a single vote for themselves.  If you look at the ripples in a pond and mis-identify what's causing them, then you'll be surprised if a volcanic explosion suddenly occurs.

That the candidates are responsible for the votes cast is an illusion.  It's an illusion they participate in because it makes them feel more important.  But, it's still an illusion.

Since so many people are content to share this illusion, why should we be surprised that they welcome the illusion of American global dominance? 

then there is that pesky truth that observation alters the outcome

Lind has been quiet for a while...
In kicking the can down the war, he describes why the Repubs and Dems are content to let the war continue.

http://dni2.wordpress.com/2008/01/09/kic...

[snip]
Most of the leading Democratic Presidential candidates are ambiguous, at best, about ending the war in Iraq if they win. Why? In part, because just as the neo-cons now dominate Republican circles, so the Democratic Establishment is in thrall to the neo-liberals. Both cabals of neos favor a world-dominating American empire, run of course by themselves. We are reminded once again that while there may be, at least on paper, two parties, there is one Establishment. It does not look favorably on ending the games off which it feeds.

Then there is the matter of a certain Small Middle Eastern Country which likes the war in Iraq, and hopes for a war on Iran as well. Said SMEC speaks with a loud voice in Democratic Party circles, the voice of campaign contributions. Never does money speak more audibly than in an election year.

welcome the illusion of American global dominance

~~~~~~~~~~~

 anyone who still holds on to that hope hasn'r checked the currency markets lately

199.  Last night's analysis of the NH vote indicated that Hillary did well among the working class which, I suppose, the pundits thought Edwards was appealing to.  Personally, I was put off by his constant itteration of the sufferings and hardships the working class had experienced and I wondered about the strategy of telling people things they already know. Of course, blaming it on the corporations didn't strike me as worthwhile either since most people understand that corporations are subject to laws and laws are made by people.  So, it's the people who make the laws that have to be changed, but Edwards wasn't proposing to do that.  He did imply that he was going to take care of it all.  So did Kucinich.  What Edwards has going for him is that he's better looking, he's got little kids and he's built a big house as evidence that he does appreciate the finer things in life.  But, he's a lawyer........

212.  Geez, Phil, I've never even checked the currency markets.  Besides, I just said that when belief comes first, it doesn't make any difference what experience shows.  If belief is right and experience conflicts, then the experience is simply wrong.

210.  all the more reason to stick to your interpretation of experience.  Eventually belief will alter the outcome to make experience consistent with expectation.

with Richardson out, and Edwards not in the Senate at the moment we have two Senators you can become the leaders of the exit from Iraq in the coming weeks; now that McCain has laid down a "hundred year" marker

John Edwards has made "no permanent bases" central to his exit plan, and that is with a quick but orderly withdrawal. I'm not sure the other two have made that clear.

211.  I expect it will take a few more examples to demonstrate that money is not going to do the trick.  Last night the pundits were arguing that "retail" politics in Iowa and NH, where the money was largely wasted (Romney, for example), is no over and from now on it's the electronic advertising that's going to return the election back to the wholesale level.

Eventually belief will alter the outcome to make experience consistent with expectation.  

~~~~~~~~~~~

Or experience will alter the outcome to make expectation consistent with belief

~~~~~~~~~~

Or expectation will alter the outcome to make belief consistent with experience

216.  But, McCain is telling the truth.  If they make that the issue, they'll have the same problem as Kerry did.  McCain's surrogates will argue, and rightly, "but you bought into the agenda all along.  Why change now?  Have you no confidence in the superiority of America?"

That's why I was hoping Senator Clinton would take the bull by the horns and declare her independence from the strategy Bill and the Bushes put in place.  Instead, they let Bush Two bring up the long range agenda and even then they didn't confront it head on, but rather pretended that this is just another example of his nonsensical prattling.

Now that McCain has brought it up again, are the Senators willing to confront it head on?

Edwards can still argue that he wasn't there long enough to get a handle on the whole picture.  Kerry couldn't argue that because he's already seen the whole picture in Viet Nam and then backed away from his initial interpretation.

"wrong war, wrong time, wrong place"  was simply an admission that Viet Nam was, in retrospect, the right war at the right time and in the right place.  And that's the petard he was hoisted on. 

Monica

every America gets hit in the face with our devalued dollar every time they pull up at the pumps and pay for that imported good and it is the reason the Fed can't drop interest rates and save the housing collapse

you might not check the currency markets but the Bush tax cut deficit destroying our dollar has put our economy at great risk because normal fixes can't be used

219.  Neither experience nor expectation can alter the outcome.  Belief is able to do both because it's a matter of interpretation.

Experience is particularly fragile because of the prejudice that we can "do better," and tend to overlook that the better of bad is worse. 

221.  Agreed, Phil.  You've identified the problem and its probably cause, but the guy at the gas pump doesn't think about that.  He doesn't even think about the fact that the reason he's living out in the boonies and has to drive a car to get to his job is because we've had forty years of dispersing the population to thin out the urban centers so they won't explode.

The guy at the gas pump has no idea that suburbanization has been codified in development, contruction and zoning codes all across the nation.  The guy at the gas pump has no idea that the cost of his house has been grossly inflated by infra-structure that's designed for inefficient use.

The United States has been a grand experiment in pacification.  To a certain extent it mirrors the production of live stock in a contained environment, rather than free-range.   

I will opine a final time on New Hampshire and polls, since unlike Iowa where it happens in the open, in New Hampshire it is a secret process, I think that Hillary showing a "soft" side humanizing her was followed by Edwards making a "hard" unsensitive rejoinder, after tag teaming with Obama in the debate.

John Edwards lost a distinction from Obama at the same time he looked less attractive to women because of his response, and most of the "surprise" came from Edwards supporters lost to Clinton in the category od Democratic women

Obama got the vote of all his supporters.

Hillary was handed a gift. The next time she will have to earn it.

I operate heavy machinery and a couple of near death experiences with gravity, has lead to a belief that the speed of the attraction of mass to earth is quicker than human response time, leading to the expectation I might not be so lucky the next time.

The fourth variable in that equation is the fickle finger of fate.

The only "fixes" available for some time have been interest rates.  But, trying to regulate the economy by restricting the currency available to mediate transactions hasn't really worked since we went from a relatively scarce metal to paper and now to numbers on an electronic monitor.

It didn't make a significant difference, IMHO, as long as whoever controlled the currency could be trusted.  The U.S. has demonstrated that it cannot be trusted to pay back what it borrows in kind.  Instead, the leadership of the U.S. seems wedded to a combination of bankruptcy (subject to the law) and piracy (the threat to use force).

What's the purpose of our fleet in the Indian Ocean and Persian Gulf?  I thought it was telling that the U.S. offer to patrol the Indian Ocean and deter piracy was rebuffed by the countries of southeast Asia.  LOL 

It didn't make a significant difference, IMHO, as long as whoever controlled the currency could be trusted

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"In God we trust." faith based currency

FISA immunity is on the plate and I expect a show of backbone from Dodd the likes of which we haven't seen for awhile.

Obama and Clinton will be forced to choose sides and it wouldn't surprise me if the telecommunication giants don't prove Edwards right about who is running things.

can we agree ahead of time that skipping the FISA vote should be a strike against whomever tries it?

bbl

225.  Yes, but you're a reality-based not a faith-based person.

I never enjoyed the discussion of the philosophical question about whether the idea or the thing came first, probably because I'm not programmed to  accept beliefs or ideas that are distinct from experience.  Perhaps that's because early on it became obvious that my parent's interpretation of reality was almost inevitably inconsistent with my experience.  For example, from the earliest time I can remember, the farmer on whose farm we stayed and his wife fed me the most delicious soup for lunch whenever I happened to be there at lunch time and when my mother came to take me back to our quarters, she invariably complained that I smelled bad and insisted on inspecting me for bugs, trying to instill the message that the farm family, which had given us shelter and fed me, was somehow to be disdained as unworthy of the presence of such a superior person as herself.

I guess you could say that a free lunch was my reality check.  Unlike my mother, the farm family had no obligation to feed me.  So, I developed a sense of gratitude, which she never had.  Nothing was ever good enough for that woman.  But many Americans interpreted that as a good sign, evidence of her ambition to make things better.  Clearly, there was a script in her head into which reality never fit.  I have no idea how it got there because her description of her youth, it eventually turned out, was also almost entirely false.  (It took a long time to register that tales of a neglected childhood didn't comport with studio photographs of a plump baby, toddler and young girl all decked out in stylish outfits with ribbons and bows).  What it's left me with is an awareness of how prejudice works to distort reality and the realization that in some cases it's impossible to overcome. 

227.  Yes, the threads have been woven in over a long period of time. LOL

The nice thing about faith is that it protects us from disappointment.  It's a salve for the human brain that really doesn't like to be wrong.  Our brains hate making a mistake.  Perhaps that's why memory is so erratic.  Inconsistencies are rejected as a matter of default, which can only be overcome by constant repetition--also known as brain-washing.

The brain has to be cleared of prior information, before the new stuff can get in and find a footing.

Is it possible that McCain's confinement as a prisoner of war merely reinforced the brainwashing that his military training had involved?  The effort to brainwash George Romney obviously didn't stick since he re-interpreted his experiences in Viet Nam within two years.  Willard's obviously took.  He has no problem rejecting any experience that's inconsistent with his belief that he should do whatever the elders tell him. 

FISA is critical.  It's where security, secrecy and sovereignty come together--my three legs of the potentates stool.

I will opine a final time on New Hampshire and polls, since unlike Iowa where it happens in the open, in New Hampshire it is a secret process, I think that Hillary showing a "soft" side humanizing her was followed by Edwards making a "hard" unsensitive rejoinder, after tag teaming with Obama in the debate.

John Edwards lost a distinction from Obama at the same time he looked less attractive to women because of his response, and most of the "surprise" came from Edwards supporters lost to Clinton in the category od Democratic women

Obama got the vote of all his supporters.

Hillary was handed a gift. The next time she will have to earn it.

+++

Phil -

Nice analysis.

That would explain Edwards only getting 16 % (I had thought he would do better, as I thought the same of Obama).

I hope you're right though, about the whole Smith and Barney thing of  earning it ("The next time she will have to earn it") .

IMO it seems like rinse and repeat might be in order with the Clinton campaign, now that it's been shown to be a largely superficial electorate, especially in the privacy of the primary voting booth (ie. many women voting for Hillary simply because she's a woman).

IMO it seems like rinse and repeat might be in order with the Clinton campaign, now that it's been shown to be a largely superficial electorate, especially in the privacy of the primary voting booth (ie. many women voting for Hillary simply because she's a woman).

___________________________________________________________________________

rd,

Could the same be said for African Americans voting for Obama because he is African American?  Or at least in part?

234.

maybe but there's a lot of female African Americans voting for Hillary (so, in that instance, gender trumps race)

mprov -

If you see this post, please don't leave this blog.

The FED is in a bind. If they raise interest rates to snuff out inflation, they kill the economy and really hurt housing. If they lower rates, they risk pumping inflation up.

The way out is to raise taxes on the wealthy and cut taxes on the middle and lower income rates. This puts money in the hands of those who will spend it; not invest it in offshore businesses.
The next thing is to encourage domestic jobs and hiring by giving tax breaks or tax credits to those who expand or refurbish their businesses and hire more people. This keeps the money here and creates wealth among those who will spend it. Bubba did this very well.
The next is to bring back accelerated depreciation to allow those who expand their facilities to get pay back quicker. Bubba and Bush II did this. The time has expired and should be allowed again.
I have never been a big fan of capital gains taxes. I would cut them or keep them low where they are. I am more in favor of a tiered consumption tax where taxes are paid when the money is spent. Those that make less pay a lower percentage rate; otherwise they would pay a higher percentage of their gross income to taxes. This encourages savings and capital investment. Some Repubs are pushing parts of this with their “Fair” tax proposal. They also lump Social Security in with their tax proposals in their attempt to allow people to invest Social Security dollars. The problem with Social Security is both parties have gutted it leaving a lot of IOUs. Put the money back in the form of government bonds and leave it alone.
We must have some kind of Universal Health Care that insures everyone. Dennis’s plan gets the insurance companies out of it and Edwards’ plan eventually does.
The next thing is to remove the tax advantage of having offshore banks. Tax it before it leaves the country by having transparent banking laws. There are all sorts of foreign country banks that are tax shelters from Costa Rica to Malaysia to Austria. Tax the money when the check is cut or when the wire transfer is made.
I don’t want to make Phil mad but I am not in favor of subsidies; especially farm subsidies to the larger farms. I understand the theory of price controls to allow the producer to receive a guaranteed price months down the road. This prohibits over production of some products and underproduction of other products. Managed economies do not work well but because of the time factor, this part may be necessary. Farm subsidies hurt poor foreign producers because they are forced to compete with subsidized producers. I hate to think that subsidizing cotton farmers here leads to farmers in Sudan starving because they price they get is so low they can’t feed their own people.
The policy of subsidizing oil companies is insane but will continue until the next Dem administration – and maybe longer.
Clinton had the next big think – the internet expansion – and was smart enough to encourage development and the economy prospered. The next big thing has to be fuel and biomedical breakthroughs. We should pour incentive dollars in these fields but only if the work stays here.

We actually can only guess at why people voted the way they voted in New Hampshire, in Iowa they stand up.

WHAT REAL CHANGE MEANS

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_peter_mi_080109_thoughts_for_obama_a.htm

Hilary Clinton made an impressive comeback Tuesday in New Hampshire’s Democratic presidential primary, after her defeat in Iowa to Barack Obama. It now appears likely that either she or Obama will be the Democratic nominee when votes are all counted by Feb. 5’s Super Primary.

Both candidates are running a marathon of hope, with a vision of national unity and a promise of change. We’re hoping, of course, they mean real change. Yet their proposals for change skirt major right-wing roadblocks that obstinately block our progress.

Time for change has come, they both agree. If so, the process of change should start with reform of lobbying and political fund-raising practices. Such reform would be a blow to that right-wing orthodoxy that sanctifies property and capital. A little common sense tells us we’re not going to be united as one nation when managers are making 400 times more than workers, the poor are paying 36 percent interest on credit cards, and the nation’s safety-net hospitals are closing.

The acceptance of a national security state is another right-wing folly blocking real progress. The safety-and-security argument for secretive government is a cover-up of what is mostly an oligarchic money-making operation. Of course, we want to be safe and secure. Yet as we have labored over the last 60 years to become safer, the world has become more dangerous. We have produced an enemy within—the licensed-to-kill, rogue, incompetent CIA. As fear was promoted and greed justified, we created an economy critically dependent on war spending. How can the garden of unity be cultivated in the barren ground of secrecy and militarism?

The availability of affordable health-care for all Americans, much higher taxes on the affluent, and stringent environmental protections would represent not just good social policy, but a shift in that me-first mentality. Ideological right-wingers fear that shift because it will expose their small-mindedness and isolate them in it.

8:27 AM

I don’t want to make Phil mad but I am not in favor of subsidies; especially farm subsidies to the larger farms.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

neither am I, but consumers have been gifted with the most stable low cost food supply in the history of mankind and that has undergirded consumer confidence in our economic system and enabled very large feeding programs at reasonable prices to the poorer citizens through food stamps. school lunches and, WIC witch make up a larger part of the ag budget than subsidies

I've written here often that farm subsidies distort the markets to the detriment of farmers who have left the land by the tens of millions and made big farmers the "winners" and family farms the "losers" by stacking the deck and should end if other subsidies in competition to American farmers also end, Europe and Big Oil mainly..

We also must include some sort of debt forgiveness for poor folks everywhere. Many poor foreign companies pay their entire GNP to foreign backs in the form of interest and principal payments. To a certain extent, that is odne here. Instead of casting people into streets and dooming them forever, create moderate payment structures which get the loans paid back without devasting both the loaner and borrower. There is a fine line between forgiveness and rewarding bad behavior and I do not know where that line is. That is probably why so little is being done in this area.
During the Clinton years, I worked for international banks who were asked to guarantee loans to small businesses in foreign countries. But we couldn't use the same mechanism to guarantee the same loan to a business in Chicago. The banking business must be transparent and until it is, there will be lots of money pockets and pools and secret transactions.

I would impose a tax on the movement of money to encourage long term savings and investment, and re-instate the differences in tax rates between long and short term capital gains. we have reckless money with too much effect, mostly because of tax breaks to hedge funds

one of the main reasons for my proposal to tax the movement of money is to provide transparency

fast write offs gave us the Hummer subsidy

the less the tax code is used to give anyone breaks the better because it gives the lobbyists the cash from working people to funnel to corrupt politicians who pay off the special interests with tax breaks who return the kickbacks as campaign contributions

anytime there is a "tax incentive" there is the possibility of corruption

From a letter in today's NYT:

"Senator Barack Obama makes a lovely case for coming together, but he needs a more forceful strong-arm instinct to become a complete politician and the leader we need to repair the damage done by the Bush administration"

8:49 am

We actually can only guess at why people voted the way they voted in New Hampshire, in Iowa they stand up.  

+++

Phil -

Monica is more of an expert in the thoughts and values of fellow New Hamshirites, than I am.

However, the little I know about NH, especially southeastern NH, ia based on my familarity with my state of Massachusesetts, that borders NH.

This New England part of the country, no matter how progressive in technology, in cultural achievements, etc. is still very traditional -- a large part having to do with a population that is older than the rest of the country.

Also, NH likes to have an independent streak that doesn't like to be told by others -- for example IA voters vote one way, NH tends to then vote another way.  And when you think about it, the last two states that were still hold outs on making Martin Luther King day a state holiday, were New Hampshire and Arizona -- that speaks volumes to me that those states are somewhat more resisitant to change.

If you want the real scoop on campaign fund-raising and spending, go to:

http://www.buyingofthepresident.org/

8:55 am

233.  Right, call people superficial because they're expected to make a decision for which there's no supporting evidence. 

From where I sit, Obama is a rather recent immigrant, more recent than myself, whose American mother was herself somewhat distant from American life.  Not mention that she's now dead and unable to provide any advice.  So, Obama benefitted from the advantages that all recent immigrants get--the benefit of the doubt and very little prejudice.  Which is why it's my sense that there no visceral awareness on his part what it means to be a struggling American.  He gives the impression that he's earned privilege by his own effort and achievement and (this is what bothers me) harbors the suspicion that others just haven't tried hard enough ( it comes out in his sermon on what's wrong with public education--the parents aren't involved enough).

I really do not know what motivates Edwards and suspect others may have the same problem.  He keeps appealing to people's prejudices that they may not even have. 

I

rdorgan

I'll bet Barack Obama got almost every vote of people who intended to vote for him, I'm not buying the closet racism of the secret voting booth. That is why I think you look at the inter-play of women voters and how it played out between Edwards and Clinton. What I am saying about a secret ballot is that the results are the only really known commodity where in Iowa the demographic can be identified exactly and even to the degree of second choices.

239.  Yes, they want to be both rich and virtuous.

This country is losing the chance for ordinary working people to make a better life for their children; because there has been a breakdown in the way government bought and paid for by special interests have stacked the deck.

That is John Edwards' message and it looks like emperical truth from where I sit.

throw in the fact that one of those special interests that has a cozy relationship with the status quo is MSM though and you have to figure that doesn't help the odds of Edwards becoming President

249.

Phil -

I hope your right about the race poll gap not being a big factor in NH  (ie. race poll gap -- in a pre-election poll, a white person wants to appear like their multi-cutural, so they'll say they'll vote for a African-American candidate, but later, in the privavy of the voting booth, they think again and mutter "hmhhh, no one will see how I cast my vote, ok then, I'll vote my real intentions".

Though one other thing I noticed about NH vis-a-vis IA, is that the former seemed to have placed less of  a priority on the Iraq war, than the latter.  That would benefit someone like Hillary in NH, someone who's never apologized for her vote authorizing the use of force against Iraq in 2003

247.  Well, having lived in Florida and Georgia where almost every town has an MLK road or street running through the historically black part of town, the naming of things, including holidays strikes me as a bit of a sop.  Indeed, the sprinkling of holidays throughout the year instead of scheduling a decent annual vacation period could be seen as a strategy for exercising social control, rather than letting people do with their leisure what they will.

I've been thinking about Clinton's crying, didn't she say right after she didn't want to take America backwards or something like that?

Well it seems to me she did take women back to the time when we used crying to get our way, instead of our brainpower.  It seems to me she did take us backwards.  Of course she is trying to take us back to the 90s. A time I have no desire to return to.

MHO only.

I totally agree with what John Edwards said, what would she do under a serious stressful situation in the White House?  Cry?

I totally agree with what Obama said, she is likable enough - actually I think he was stretching it.

But I guess it's all in the perception.

All I can say is I hope women vote with their brains and not their emotions.

typo - wants to appear like their multi-cutural

s/b - wants to appear like they're multi-cultural

typo - privavy    s/b - privacy

It's been my sense from the beginning that the Clinton and Obama campaigns were both consultant driven.  Towards the end, the Obama importation of outsiders got to be really annoying.  I'd almost forgotten that the visibility crowds in manchester early on were hired.  Over the weekend we had people at the door from Denmark, via Philadelphia, New York and Washington D.C. and multiple phone calls that weren't part of a feed back loop.

Some of the party people are saying that Clinton's ground organization was, in the end, far superior.  That, instead of being sent to the 100 dinner to wave signs, the campaign workers for Clinton were busy getting organized.  Our town had obviously been ceded to Obama.  The college students gave him 500 extra votes by voting absentee.

Both candidates started out talking about "I" in the "I know better mode."  Perhaps that works better for a woman since women do actually "know better."  LOL 

rae hart
Thu, 01/10/08
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

personally, I think Hillarys emotions wer genuine......I think these campaign are quite strenous and strssful on anybody........

Now,,as far as her or any other woman being i  the WH and not being able to handle stress, thats another story.......females are inherent with certain biological/chemical traits that men are not, but thats not to say they could handle the job......look at some men we have, they grge themselves in prayer or booze or whatever else the WH can afford them..........

Its hi time for woman president......just not Hillary Clinton.

Did I mention that I ended up voting for executive experience--Bill Richardson?

Rumor has it that he's withdrawing, as well.

So, we're going to be left with the pro-corporatists and the anti-corporatists.  LOL 

Good morning - haven't had time to read through the thread yet to see if this has been posted. John Kerry has endorsed Obama. Is that a good thing?

259.

Why is it that men were sucked into Hillary's emotional episode. As I said before, I didn't believe her phony baloney for a New York minute... hubby did.

Goes to show ya, all we women have to do is get emotional to wrap men around our little fingers!  Sexist statement, but hey, when the shoe fits, yada, yada, yada...

for what it's worth (I'm less impressed with polls and endorsements now but Kerry is still my senator, and MA is still largely Clinton country):

http://www.startribune.com/nation/13674341.html

Associated Press

Last update: January 10, 2008 - 8:23 AM

MYRTLE BEACH, S.C. -

The Democrats' 2004 presidential nominee, John Kerry, is endorsing Barack Obama, a person close to Kerry says.

Mary he did? I thought I had heard that on the news this morning.

Interesting - I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not. Maybe he knows something we don't know about Hillary. I'm very surprised he didn't endorese John.

Now it's left for my other MA senator -- Ted Kennedy -- to choose sides.

I hope Kennedy endorses Obama. Kennedy has always been a hero of mine - even when I was an R - same with my husband. Kennedy will give a boost with the Democratic wing IMO.

Here is what I think after reading and watching what the Clinton camp was up to in New Hampshire. They were very cold and calculating. I'd say they were down right mean-spirited most of the time. Clinton's operatives were out of control. Good grief, does that staff have an ego or what. And they sure do have the sense to go in for the kill. They were acting like a bunch of reptiles or a pack of wolves out for blood. Clinton was correct, it's not "a game" for them. Theirs is a blood thirsty battle. She did said she was in it and in it to win. Very nasty.

I think it's very interesting how Obama was miss understood by both Clinton and the Corporate Media. I wonder who told her to say that about Obama? Not a very intelligent person that is for sure more of a beast I would say. Was he really attacking Clinton, I think not. I thought he was talking about Bush when I heard him say it. Who else believes that they are more entitled than anybody else to be President for life and live in the White House any more than that fascist Bush. If he gets his way he would make himself Emperor. Bush has always been the target. If Clinton thought Obama was talking about her, well, what does that tell you about her character and her Emotional Quotient? Clinton shouldn't feel so secure about her governing ability and where her mind is on the evolutionary scale. She still has got a lot to learn as far as I'm concerned. With an attitude like that she would push the button in a second and not think twice about it. Kind of scary.

I've seen first hand how politicians and political operatives use folks on several occasions. Some are just more slick at it than others. I guess you could say I'm being cynical, well, perhaps I am. I just don't miss much and I'm not a fool. Clinton's campaign probably will get worst by the time they reach California. The politicians and the political operatives out here are notorious for using dirty-tricks and tearing each other apart. It's just disgusting. They end up losing to the Republicans because of it. For pity sakes, we have Arnold Schwarzenegger for a Governor. When will they ever learn? That is why I wish Gore would have run. If anybody deserves to be President it sure would be Al Gore and nobody would have run against. He would have united the county. He has away of doing that to folks.

Karen - I do believe Clinton was truly emotional - but it was about how hard it was to lose -- not how deeply she cared for our country. This is obviously just my opinion. It would have truly touched me had she been so emotionally shaken over the lost lives in Iraq - not over a losing campaign.

I suspect that John Kerry does not want to return to the 90's and, thus, when he saw Clinton win in NH, he decided to make his choice now.

BTW, Karen - it sure is nice to *see* you again! Time for coffee. Big day today - my son is getting his braces off. ;-)

county s/b country

I suspect that if Clinton starts to get a momentum towards the dem nomination, Al Gore will get increasingly agitated, just my opinion. 

I suspect that if Clinton starts to get a momentum towards the dem nomination, Michael Bloomberg will get increasingly agitated, just my opinion.

Morning Blog,

I knew it was coming, my candidate (Bill Richardson) in the presidential race is bowing out today.  I thought he would resonate with voters better than he did.  Oh well, my favorites in presidential races have never gotten the nomination.

I don't know who to support now because the top three on my list:  Richardson, Dodd, and Biden are all out.  This year, imho, substance didn't win out over style. 

259

It is interesting that the woman who asked Clinton the question voted for Obama, stated that the emotional Clinton only lasted through her misting, then she returned to her stiff self.

I for one believe in was phony, as does my husband.

I find it interesting, that Dean, Kerry, Gore, Bradley, Hart, Bloomberg all seem to not be enamored with another revolving turn of one of the two dynasties in America, just my opinion.

Arrayed against this are the likes of Wes Clark, Dick Gephardt, Terry McAuliffe, etc.

I'm most interested in who Feingold and Boxer will endorse.

Karen
Thu, 01/10/08
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Not just women Karen, but men too!  Last night, I tried crying about taking out the garbage and.....BINGO!  It worked.......

Afte that i cried to my daughter about turning down the sound to that stupid music.....it worked!

Today Ill try it on the boss about a raise.....stay tuned.

Another very negative attribute about caucuses, vs. primaries (no, I have no reenrolled as yet as a Democrat).

#of towns/cities in my county: 59

It is the most "librul" & urban, if you will (in this part of purple Maine).

Convenors thus far:

#23 (two folks have volunteered to convene two caucuses each).

Anyone who wants to caucus (and I don't believe that the average citizen is aware of the following) *cannot* do so (even via absentee ballot) if no convenor is available.

Suffice to say, a very low "turnout" is expected!

Yes, people do lie like hell when being "polled"--only to not appear like they're actually the racist, homophobic, and sexist pigs that they are...happens all the time. It's impossible to measure which of those voters flipped while in the privacy of the voting booth once the votes are tallied.

All anyone needs to do w/Hillary's "tearing up" video is to watch the stupid thing. People cannot turn raw emotions on and off like a faucet (within seconds)--then to launch into what could appear as a "coded" racist smear. Time the lag--it's obvious.

When people choke up like that, tears automatically follow; or they exit from the immediate milieu; and gather their composure in another part of the room for a bit (or continue to cry; and request some tissues).

Raw genuine emotions initiate from a physiolocial/emotional/psychological reaction. They don't simply stop ("free will"), if they're authentic (hence, the cliche' "crocodile tears").

That didn't occur. Clinton hardly took a breath or two before she continued to lambaste Obama upside the haid.

Review the video clip, folks.

Many women in this country vote against their interests (esp. economic) all the time...view TV programming which offers an escape mechanism/denial of reality in their lives (esp. working class or low class women, whose lives suck).

It exemplified their moment in the privacy of the voting booth to say "F^CK YOU" to every misogynist (perceived or real), who's ever wronged them in life.

They aren't your typical critical thinkers of the world--not many have the time to do so.

"Identity politics" is symbolic in nature: full steam ahead. Women in their 40s and up have lived lives *chock full* of sexism--it was a shallow form of voting booth agency; but marginalized demographic groups sometimes opt for the "hop on the bandwagon approach" (offers the *illusion* of "she's just like me").

Hardly.

Yes, it will become uglier--in a huge way, folks (intersections of race & misogyny).

http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/623599.html

Published 12:00 am PST Thursday, January 10, 2008
Story appeared in MAIN NEWS section, Page A14

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton won the New Hampshire primary Tuesday on a surge of support from women. Just five days earlier, female voters preferred Sen. Barack Obama in Iowa.

Gender has become a hot topic in the competitive Democratic primary after a long weekend in New Hampshire, where Clinton had a tearful moment on the campaign trail and a tense debate left some women feeling that her male rivals had disrespected her.

But with racial and generational crosscurrents also at play in the presidential race, no one was suggesting Wednesday that Clinton can take women's votes for granted.

Obama remains popular among young and affluent voters, who tend to ignore gender more often.

...

We Don't Want Your Skull and Bones Endorsement

http://www.rawstory.com/news/mochila/Kerry_to_back_Obama_for_president_01102008.html 

Heres in "the war room"......my 24 hour staff and I have analyzed the Hillary crying incident alot.....this video shows it may have been faked.....theres no crying in politics.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-UVakLAfoz8

Hey mainefem,

Yeah sexism is very much still alive and well. I don't believe Hillary's "Moment" was because she feels so bad for America. Not one bit. Not that she doesn't but that little display felt a bit contrived to me.

Nothing wrong with women crying, or men for that matter. Stereotypes abound - men shouldn't cry, women "just do."

And God forbid a strong woman (taking in general here, not about HC who I don't think is all that strong) should also be intelligent. Some men don't do well with that and don't like to be put in "their place." Have no idea why they might feel threatened but I see it quite often, still, in the workplace.

Women standing up for themselves is sometimes still viewed as a "how dare she" moment, If they sound tough they lose their feminiity. The dangerous flip side of that is giving in to the 'power" some men think they hold over "their woman" (possessiveness).

Give me a thoughtful, kind and able to admit mistakes (and apologize for them) HUMAN BEING anyday. Some folks just don't have that in them, though.

mainefem - Now that I have some coffee - I'm back. What's interesting is that the media (no surprise) failed to play the rest of the clip where she launched into attack mode. I do think she was emotional but it was because she was frickin' losing.

Thanks to Sandy in cubicle #14......

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VijpAkZbX3Y

Yes, Denise. I like both although Boxer campaigned for Lieberman - hopefully just a temp. lapse in judgment.

266.

against s/b against him.

oops, it's early. More coffee.

rdorgan - I mentioned yesterday that if Clinton rolls into the nomination - it is likely that Bloomberg will run. IMO if Obama wins - he won't have a reason to. I arrived at this decision since Gary Hart met with that group in Oklahoma and he supports Obama.

I mentioned yesterday that if Clinton rolls into the nomination - it is likely that Bloomberg will run. IMO if Obama wins - he won't have a reason to.

I've read the opposite. But your opinion in the matter is a valid as anyone else's. 

Barack Obama’s strategists are left with one inescapable lesson from Tuesday’s voting in New Hampshire: their candidate does not have much appeal to older, less-educated, lower-income and Catholic voters.:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22575721/

And what does Berlin's primary outcome teach Democratic candidate Barack Obama and his team of strategists?

Berlin, way up north in the White Mountains, is far off the beaten path, far from major airports or even an interstate highway. It's an old paper mill city where economic development is still a pipe dream.

...

A reprise of Gore v. Bradley
In some ways, Tuesday's Clinton-Obama-John Edwards contest resembled the Al Gore and Bill Bradley's 2000 battle in New Hampshire.

Sounding like Obama eight years before Obama arrived on the scene, Bradley claimed to represent a “new kind of politics” – less partisan, more consensus-minded and less interested in settling scores.

In Berlin in 2000, Gore trounced Bradley, getting two out of every three Democratic voters.

“There’s a history in the New Hampshire primary of reform-minded insurgent candidates going against the more Establishment candidate who presents a traditional, bread-and-butter message,” said Dante Scala, a political scientist at the University of New Hampshire.

...

Sitka - What have you read about Bloomberg's run?

We actually can only guess at why people voted the way they voted in New Hampshire, in Iowa they stand up.

And state why they're voting for whom? Give it a rest about how Iowa is the gretest thing since democracy.

Yes Mary a lapse in judgement - we all have them :)

Gotta get on the road - happy day everyone!

What have you read about Bloomberg's run?  

I read a couple of articles weeks ago which predicted Bloom would run if Obama won -- presumably because he would be a weaker candidate. But just because some people get paid to talk doesn't mean their righter than anyone else.

I'm very surprised he didn't endorese John.

Who endorses a two time loser in one week who's won only one primary in two election cycles? 

For all the Edwards supporters here (Phil, rich, Indy, Linda, cChalfonte, seashell, etc.), this is an interesting perspective from an Obama supporter on the Obama '08 blog :

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post_group/ObamaHQ/CpB#comment-gGCjPc

More evidence that the R's want to run against Clinton. I will just link to Karl Rove's article. Read between the lines...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB11999261...

Sitka, everybody's mad at you!  LOL

In that case, I must be doing something right. 

I will just link to Karl Rove's article.

No thanks. I don't need to invite Karl Rove into my head to dump one of his toxic loads. Just remember that anything he says is designed to manipulate you in the direction he wants in ways you can't even see.

There's one in every crowd. 

good morning!  if you're gasping for air here, I started a new thread which you could promote to the front page...

http://www.blogforamerica.com/view/23505

299.

I will just link to Karl Rove's article.

No thanks. I don't need to invite Karl Rove into my head to dump one of his toxic loads.

...

+++

Plus, you never know if the number of hits that the Robert Murdoch's WSJ gets on this Rove article, helps determine the final financial compensation package to Rove from WSJ coffers.

So I won't be a hitter either. 

fyi - new Front thread