Linda, great post.  I hope you consider encouraging some of these candidates to apply for a DFA endorsement!  www.democracyforamerica.com/application

Julie, I have. Some will. Thank you for your comment.

Turning? It looks pretty Blue to me!

Way to go linda b!!!

And for those folks trying to turn the sea red, full of lies and hate, they earn themself "Worst Person in the World",


http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?f=00...://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/&fg=

Jihad Joe LIEberman

30. (last thread)

Not to be a spoilsport.  Mark Warner is a nice guy, smart, and certainly was a better Governor than anyone the GOP would put up, but he's a classic corporate Democrat.  Shoot, he comes from a business background.  He's a Blue Dog.  He'll be another vote for the "get along" coalition, probably not as bad as Joe Lieberman, but far from someone who supported Howard Dean can be happy with.

The "Rockefeller Republican" caucus in my local committee, I'm sure, will tell me that's what we need to win in Virginia.  I don't believe that.

In a local appearance last night, Warner said, "voters were reaching out to candidates willing to work for reasonable solutions to the state's problems rather than to impose their own ideology."

The lede from a"Virginiaian Pilot" story says " Former Gov. Mark Warner, a Democrat, is widely expected to announce his candidacy for the U.S. Senate on Thursday, pledging to bring a spirit of bipartisanship to Washington."

Can't we do better?  Why doesn't Bobby Scott make a run, for example?

Rich, I would love to have Bobby Scott run but he is not as well known as Mark Warner.

Agreed we don't need no bipartisanship anymore, we need to kick ars.

The premise of my post now is women candidates.

PETRAEUS: THE PARIS HILTON OF GENERALS

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/62302/

There has been a drumbeat of growing excitement in the press, preparing us for "pivotal reports," a "pivotal hearing," "highly anticipated appearances," and "long-awaited testimony," or, as both the Washington Post on its front page and ABC World News in a lead report put it, "the most anticipated congressional testimony by a general since the Vietnam War."

Petraeus himself has been treated in the media as a celebrity, somewhere between a conquering Caesar and the Paris Hilton of generals.

Nothing he does has been too unimportant to record, not just the size of his entourage as he arrived from Baghdad, or the suite he was assigned at the Pentagon, or even his "recon" walk through the room in the House of Representatives where he would testify Monday, but every detail.

So who, exactly, was so eagerly awaiting the jogging general's testimony? If a recent Washington Post-ABC News poll is any indication, a majority of Americans weren't among that crowd. They had already discounted whatever he would say -- I doubt the ambassador even registered -- as "exaggerated" and "a rosier view" than reality dictated before his face and that chest full of ribbons hit the TV screens. ("Just 23 percent of Democrats and 39 percent of independents expected an honest depiction of conditions in Iraq.")

This was simple good sense. What exactly could anyone outside of Washington have expected the general -- who had a hand in creating the President's "surge" strategy, is now in charge of the "surge" campaign, and for months has been delegated the official administration front man for what was, from day one, labeled a "progress report" -- to say?

I am going to ask mark this weekend on his stance on the war.

The premise of my post now is women candidates.

INCLUDING HILLARY?

OPRAH'S CLOUT WON'T HELP OBAMA

http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/62265/

Oprah Winfrey thinks things can be different now that she's signed on as one of Barack Obama's major bankrollers, an ex-officio campaign cheerleader, and celebrity marketer. After all, how could millions of voters refuse a command from the closest thing to America's earth mother to back Obama?

It's simple. Almost no one pays any attention to what celebrities have to say about politicians. A September Newsweek poll removed any doubt about that. Barely three percent of respondents said that a celebrity endorsement had any influence on who they voted for.

Mark Warner will make an excellent Senator. Bobby Scott maybe even a better one and I don't think primary races hurt a thing as long as the party stands behind the winner.

but linda b your post is one of the most impressive I've seen here

your effort is inspiring, and exactly what Howard expected of the "You have the power" bunch

Thank You!

Youre a true patriot Linda...........this country needs toughies like you..........cheers

Oprah has a pretty big megaphone and if she uses it for voter registration and turnout will make a difference.

GO LYNN!

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/091207O.shtml

  Rep. Lynn Woolsey (D-Calif.) is encouraging anti-war activists to find challengers to centrist Democrats, with the aim of moving the party to the left and ramping up opposition to the war in Iraq, to the chagrin of top Democratic aides.

    "You folks should go after the Democrats," Woolsey said in response to a suggestion from an activist during a conference call last month organized by the Network of Spiritual Progressives.

    "I'd hate to lose the majority, but I'm telling you, if we don't stand up to our responsibility, maybe that's the lesson to be learned."

AMEN! LET'S GET RID OF THE BLUEDOGS!

Oprah has a pretty big megaphone and if she uses it for voter registration and turnout will make a difference.

Repugs will just purge rolls and intimidate voters at the polls, not to mention DIEBOLD.

Oprah might end up helping Edwards by cutting into Hillary's womens base and dividing that group.

In fact anything that cuts into Hillary's base helps all of the other candidates.

The quicker Edwards can get the contest into a two person race with Obama the better if they can trade first and second place finishes in the early states it takes away the name recognition edge Hillary counts on in the media states.

Go Oprah.

Great work Linda!!

Just last evening I was on the phone with a woman asking her to consider the U.S. House instead of the GA House. The gentleman i was/am encouraging may well be too hesitant. My observation is that once inspired, women carry thru wonderfully, and survive to try again if not successful the first time.

... and heck, my mother was a woman. lol

Repugs will just purge rolls and intimidate voters at the polls, not to mention DIEBOLD.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

no doubt they will try.

they could never win a fair vote with a large turnout

Kucinich/Boxer '08!!

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0907/5783.html

Obama advisor worries Israel supporters

By: Ben Smith
Sep 12, 2007 06:00 AM EST

Barack Obama is outlining his views on the Iraq war in a major speech Wednesday in Iowa, and bringing along a gray-haired source of foreign policy gravitas: Zbigniew Brzezinksi, Jimmy Carter’s national security advisor, who says that Obama offers “a new definition of America's role in the world.”

With the gravity, though, comes a some baggage.

Brzezinski, 79, stepped into the crossfire this summer when he published an essay in the summer issue of the journal Foreign Policy, defending a controversial new book about the power of the “Israel Lobby” in American politics.

The book’s authors, Harvard’s Stephen Walt and the University of Chicago’s John Mearsheimer, thanked him for his “incisive defense.”

But the article inserted him into one of the most heated debates in America-Israel politics, a bitter dispute about whether the authors’ claims smacked of bigotry, whether their critics are – as Brzezsinksi put it — “McCarthyite.”

“It is a tremendous mistake for Barack Obama to select as a foreign policy advisor the one person in public life who has chosen to support a bigoted book,” said Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz, one of the most visible critics of the Walt and Mearsheimer volume, titled “The Israel Lobby.” (Dershowitz has contributed to the campaign of Obama’s leading rival, Senator Hillary Clinton of New York.)

...

7.

Understood, but by the time I wrote my post for the last thread, the thread was over.  

I'm just saying, it takes more than a "D" by the name to be the kind of Senator we want to see.  Mark Warner is certainly the best known, and best liked, Democrat in the Commonwealth, but that doesn't make him my ideal candidate, unless "just win, baby" (the motto of the Oakland Raiders) is the basis for selection. 

26.
Phil Specht
Wed, 09/12/07
6:08 am

Reply to this

Obama impressed me yesterday. I'm going to give him another look.

+++

Phil -

Thanks for the openness. (that son of your's must be having an influence too ?)

I second what you said upthread about the tremendous work linda b is doing in VA.

VERSE CASE SCENARIO

by Tony Peyser

"Five senators vying to become commander in chief railed, postured and questioned the top U.S. general in Iraq about the war Tuesday — all they can do unless they get their wish, win the election next year and inherit the quagmire." 9/12

And for a little bit of R and R, tonight in Gillette Stadium, in neighboring Foxboro, MA, a friendly game of Brazil versus Mexico kicks off at 8:30 pm.

There's lot of Brazilians in the Boston area and here's one expressing his sentiments:

http://www.salemnews.com/punews/images_sizedimage_255004531/resources_photoview

Berto Oliveira of Peabody holds up the Brazilian flag. He said he is excited to see the Brazilian soccer team play at Gillette Stadium for the first time today.
Kristen Olson / Staff Photo

STAN GOFF (BLESS HIM)!

http://www.counterpunch.org/goff09122007.html

In military drill there is something called the preparatory command and the command of execution.  These were the two commands, followed in lockstep by the press yesterday:

Prepare to kiss ass.

Kiss ass.

Or should I say David Petraeus' ass.

Members of Code Pink and Iraq Veterans Against the War, who had infiltrated the hearing room, were serially arrested when they took their turns shouting things like "How long will you listen ot these people?" and "Liar!" from the back of the room.  God bless 'em.

The articulate, level-voiced General, though he only went to combat when Bush invaded Iraq, has more fruit salad on his chest than any veteran of three previous wars.

Cheney's input was in evidence in the  psyop, mantra-like repetition of the key phrases as a form of mass mesmeric suggestion... "al Qaeda Iraq" ... "ethno-sectarian"... "al Qaeda Iraq" ... "ethno-sectarian"... "al Qaeda Iraq" ... "ethno-sectarian"... "al Qaeda Iraq" ... "ethno-sectarian"...

All designed to instill the same refrain we heard in the runup to the war, Iraq associated with 9-11…oh, that's tomorrow!  Surprise!

With Rumsfeld's metrics in Petraeus' mouth yesterday, we have squared the circle with the simultaneous reincarnation of Robert MacNamara and William Westmoreland.

Light at the end of the tunnel, anyone?

Petraeus invoked Iran early and often, beginning with the now widely accepted and completely unsupported claim that Iran is supplying weapons to Iraqi "insurgents."  This is one that provoked the arrest of a Code Pinker in the back benches, when she shouted "That's a lie!"

She was right, of course.  This phony claim, originated out of the Public Affairs offices of the Pentagon, has nonetheless become an article of faith with the "journalists" of the American corporate  fourth estate.

Last year, I shocked many colleagues by recommending they vote for Democrats across the board in 2006, but folks didn't read the fine print.  We needed to put these people in power to expose them.  They were taking cover in the "we're-just-a-minority" bunker.  Now they are in the open, and the institutional rot as well as the class loyalties of the Democratic Party are on vivid display.

The Code Pinkers and Iraq Veterans Against the War represent a minority in American politics right now, just as anti-slavery advocates once were.  But let there be no confusion; this minority -- which numbers now in the millions -- has the power to put its principles into action in an instrumental way:  by threatening the fortunes of one of the ruling class parties in the United States on the issue of a criminal imperial war.

Misbehavior works.  Delegitimate.  Disobey.  Disrupt.

Mark Warner has a D after his name.

Better than Tom Davis with an R.

Bobby Scott does not want to run, as I have heard.

The women candidates here are impressive. I interviewed some personally before we endorsed them. Some got money, some got endorsed  along with the money.

I am impressed with the ones running in places like Montgomery County , where the repubs have had a lock on the leg. for many moons.

Peggy Frank is impressive. For 16 years a prosecuter.

Connie Brennan from Nelson County is a find. I have talked to her personally and she has a great resume.

Visit some of the websites. And you will come away awed by their backgrounds.

The premise of my post now is women candidates.

INCLUDING HILLARY?

I am working on women candidates in Virginia. Onward and upward.

Three cheers for linda b!!!! Way to go, Linda and all you blue Virginians.

American Economy: R.I.P.

By Paul Craig Roberts

09/10/07 "ICH' -- -- The US economy continues its slow death before our eyes, but economists, policymakers, and most of the public are blind to the tottering fabled land of opportunity.

In August jobs in goods-producing industries declined by 64,000. The US economy lost 4,000 jobs overall. The private sector created a mere 24,000 jobs, all of which could be attributed to the 24,100 new jobs for waitresses and bartenders, and the government sector lost 28,000 jobs.

In the 21st century the US economy has ceased to create jobs in export industries and in industries that compete with imports. US job growth has been confined to domestic services, principally to food services and drinking places (waitresses and bartenders), private education and health services (ambulatory health care and hospital orderlies), and construction (which now has tanked). The lack of job growth in higher productivity, higher paid occupations associated with the American middle and upper middle classes will eventually kill the US consumer market.

The unemployment rate held steady, but that is because 340,000 Americans unable to find jobs dropped out of the labor force in August. The US measures unemployment only among the active work force, which includes those seeking jobs. Those who are discouraged and have given up are not counted as unemployed.

With goods producing industries in long term decline as more and more production of US firms is moved offshore, the engineering professions are in decline. Managerial jobs are primarily confined to retail trade and financial services.

Franchises and chains have curtailed opportunities for independent family businesses, and the US government?s open borders policy denies unskilled jobs to the displaced members of the middle class.

When US companies offshore their production for US markets, the consequences for the US economy are highly detrimental. One consequence is that foreign labor is substituted for US labor, resulting in a shriveling of career opportunities and income growth in the US. Another is that US Gross Domestic Product is turned into imports. By turning US brand names into imports, offshoring has a double whammy on the US trade deficit. Simultaneously, imports rise by the amount of offshored production, and the supply of exportable manufactured goods declines by the same amount.

The US now has a trade deficit with every part of the world. In 2006 (the latest annual data), the US had a trade deficit totaling $838,271,000,000.

( ... ) 

Recently an economist, Susan Houseman, discovered that the reliability of some US economics statistics has been impaired by offshoring. Houseman found that cost reductions achieved by US firms shifting production offshore are being miscounted as GDP growth in the US and that productivity gains achieved by US firms when they move design, research, and development offshore are showing up as increases in US productivity. Obviously, production and productivity that occur abroad are not part of the US domestic economy.

Houseman?s discovery rated a Business Week cover story last June 18, but her important discovery seems already to have gone down the memory hole. The economics profession has over-committed itself to the ?benefits? of offshoring, globalism, and the non-existent ?New Economy.? Houseman?s discovery is too much of a threat to economists? human capital, corporate research grants, and free market ideology.

The media has likewise let the story go, because in the 1990s the Clinton administration and Congress overturned US policy in favor of a diverse and independent media and permitted a few mega-corporations to concentrate in their hands the ownership of the US media, which reports in keeping with corporate and government interests.

The case for Marx is that offshoring has boosted corporate earnings by lowering labor costs, thereby concentrating income growth in the hands of the owners and managers of capital. According to Forbes magazine, the top 20 earners among private equity and hedge fund managers are earning average yearly compensation of $657,500,000, with four actually earning more than $1 billion annually. The otherwise excessive $36,400,000 average annual pay of the 20 top earners among CEOs of publicly-held companies looks paltry by comparison. The careers and financial prospects of many Americans were destroyed to achieve these lofty earnings for the few.

Hubris prevents realization that Americans are losing their economic future along with their civil liberties and are on the verge of enserfment.

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review. He is coauthor of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.

Not very often do I agree with a member of Reagan's team, but those problems and my fear as to what another Clinton administration would do about them equals my fear as to the post about the "national security" team mentioned in the fundraiser story.

Hillary addressed those issues when she gave her major economic speech inn Dubuque, but when Bill was President he made those trends worse. The temptation is very great to continue to devalue the dollar as more and more of them end up if foreign hands and it becomes a death spiral.

Phil, great article by Paul Craig Roberts.

30.

speaking of offshoring:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-buffalo30jul30,1,5022434.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

But the article inserted him into one of the most heated debates in America-Israel politics, a bitter dispute about whether the authors’ claims smacked of bigotry, whether their critics are – as Brzezsinksi put it — “McCarthyite.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

just wanted to comment that the fissures of the Party that Howard exposed are alive and well

and that the race for the White House is more that the rate of troop withdrawal from Iraq

bbl

Drive by but will return. Saw this on an email and thought it was too cool for school and way too nerdy :~) to resist -- I have class or would try to go. If there are any Alachua County FL lurkers, this is at Santa Fe Community College NW campus.

Wikipedia Expert Brion Vibber on Campus Tonight

Brion Vibber, chief technology officer of Wikipedia, will speak from 6-8 p.m. today in the W Annex, room 104. He was invited to campus by the Gainesville Gator Java Users Group. His talk is free and open to the public.

Vibber is the chief architect of the Wikipedia website and has lessons learned and future plans to discuss about Wikipedia, arguably the most innovative, popular Web2.0 website in the world. Wikipedia has grown from a single server, one database website into a multi-continent source of information. Wikipedia is unique in many respects. It encourages full download of its data, is based on open source (LAMP) and has a process designed to ensure integrity of the information it contains.
For a preview, listen to this November 2006 Swampcast interview and see the write up on the Gainesville Gator Java Users Group website.

that=than

and Rich's concerns about Warner echo mine about Clinton, but in the end any of the Democrats are better than any Republican because the neo-cons use the engine of the American economy to kill people.

look at Bush's threat to veto the bridge repair bill because it costs too much but it is less than 100 days of war to fix every bridge in the country

could it be because bridge construction is still done by American Union members?

34.

...

just wanted to comment that the fissures of the Party that Howard exposed are alive and well

...

+++

Indeed.

IMO Alan Dershowitz reminds me of Joe Lieberman.

Alan used to be quite stable. Has gone over to the dare, er I mean lie'berman side.

13.

Yeah, well, I've got a candidate. Ike Skelton of Missouri. He's been in the House since 1977 and now he chairs the House Armed Services committee, having changed seats with his old buddy Duncan Hunter with whom he shared the opinion that those "a**holes" need to be removed from his hearing room, those people who are wearing pink. Of course, it seems someone had instructed the Capitol Police ahead of time to exclude a black minister, Rev. Yearwood.

Republicans aren't the only ones who confuse "represent" with "in loco parentis"--that elections are little more than an opportunity to select one's parental stand-in and then submit to their wisdom and control. An elected elite enjoys the security of being able to argue that if they're not doing a good job they can be removed, as long as the nominating process is properly "fixed" to insure their "approval" rating or "mandate" as George likes to say.

Maybe we should start a RETURN TO SENDER list.

In Skelton's case he probably owes his longevity to people who still remember that "I like Ike" and that Red Skelton made them laugh.
For that matter, I'd suspect that Mark Warner derived considerable benefit from the confusion over who it was who once married Liz Taylor.
I tend to agree that celebrity endorsements don't count for much, but their money is nice. Which raises the question how much a party thrown by Oprah is worth and will it exceed the $2500 limit on individual contributions. If she's been writing her parties off as business expenses, that might be a problem.
Woodward and Newman opening their house for Chris Dodd is probably different because they're not usually in the party-giving business.
In my book, endorsements by Oprah would count more, if Obama weren't the first. I don't know if she invited Howard to her show. I know a lot of people were hoping she would.

linda b -

Indeed.  As a lawyer, Alan used to do a lot of pro bono work helping disadvantaged young men (typically black) get representation.

Then along came the case of Claus von Bulow appeal case in 1984.

He successfully reversed the 1982 guilty verdict of inherited-wealthy Claus's and, well, IMO he reversed a lot of what he once stood for.

30. That's what happens when the accumulating habits of the pack-rat are combined with the destructive habits of the predator.

39.

Monica Smith
Wed, 09/12/07
11:00 am


Republicans aren't the only ones who confuse "represent" with "in loco parentis"--that elections are little more than an opportunity to select one's parental stand-in and then submit to their wisdom and control. An elected elite enjoys the security of being able to argue that if they're not doing a good job they can be removed, as long as the nominating process is properly "fixed" to insure their "approval" rating or "mandate" as George likes to say.
---------

!!!

...at the same time..., Demos are the only ones who pretend they interested in "unfixed" nominating process.
Reps are more honest, they do not even pretend they are.

Kucinich on Ed Schultz show for 3 hours, live blog for questions.

we now have rethugs in my part of va that want to get rid of  "government" run schools i.e. public schools and busing.

they say most housing developmemts are integrated. not here.

they  just don't stop. dismantle anything for the masses.

Hmm, what to think about life in the US in the next coming months/years............

I got it............does anyone recall the last few scenes of Titanic? The Kate Winslet/Leonardo Dicaprio film?  Where the masses are all heading for the stern of the ship in panic mode, after the bow has already sunk below the water?

Thats how I see it..........every man, woman and child........for 'imself.

Wow! Great blog linda b.

Virginia has beautiful, ultra-smart women. Good luck to all of them.

OK. From the frying pan to the fire.

Apparently W. (because it's easier for George to spell) is going with a total NeoCon for AG.

Rumors that W. will nominate Theodore B. Olson, NeoCon from Reagan administration.

""Mr. Olson served President Ronald Reagan as Assistant Attorney General for the Office of Legal Counsel from 1981 to 1984. Before being named to that post, he was a partner in the Los Angeles office of Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher, where he practiced constitutional, media, commercial and appellate litigation. After completing his service as Assistant Attorney General, Mr. Olson returned to Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher, in its Washington, D.C. office, engaging in the practice of constitutional and appellate law and general litigation, and served as Partner-in-Charge of that office, on the firm's Executive and Management Committees and as co-chair of the firm's Appellate and Constitutional Law Practice Group.

"Mr. Olson has argued 37 cases before the Supreme Court of the United States, 14 while in private practice and 23 while serving in government, including cases involving constitutional and federal statutory questions regarding copyright, school vouchers, the internet, the 2000 census, property rights, punitive damages, telecommunications, criminal law, immigration, federal securities regulation, the Clean Air Act, antitrust, the right to a jury trial, due process, voting rights, equal protection, the ex post facto clause, the speech, press and religion clauses of the First Amendment and the constitutionality of the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform law. Before rejoining the Justice Department in 2001, he successfully represented candidates George W. Bush and Dick Cheney in the Supreme Court Bush v. Gore cases involving the 2000 presidential election."

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?tit...

Yo W. Can't you TRY to be not so hateful, political and destructive in your final year of presidency?

Ask Senator Warner to be AG. Something tells me he really would consider it being he can try to repair some damage. HUH? W? ya' listenin'?

45.

Michael Ellis
Wed, 09/12/07
11:36 am


Hmm, what to think about life in the US in the next coming months/years............

Thats how I see it..........every man, woman and child........for 'imself.
-----------

Yes..., that's how it...WAS all these years BEFORE "every man, woman and child........for 'imself", we've just DREAMED it was somewhat different.
Yes..., the last, the final "spasm", the pre-deadly convulsion is still ahead...

But AFTER that...the most interesting time will only began, imo.
Don't worry Mike, all paths lead to Rome anyway..., lol.

Jeanette Rishell for House of Delegates: http://www.dfalink.com/campaign.php?id=2...

candidate Richardson claims he was not given notice in advance; Pena claims he did notify Richardson:

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_6856509?source=rss

"I was disappointed," said Richardson, adding, "we were colleagues in the (Clinton administration) Cabinet. It would have been nice to get a heads-up."

Richardson was U.S. ambassador to the United Nations before succeeding Peña as secretary of energy in 1998. He made a brief campaign visit to Denver on Monday, where he pledged to find federal funds for Front Range mass transit if elected president.

"Bill's a friend of mine," Peña said when told about Richardson's comment. "There are a number of presidential candidates who are friends of mine."

Peña said that he had called Richardson's campaign manager and "told him that I was going to support Sen. Obama."

...

linda b is one of the ones that actually does something. She puts her money where her mouth is. She is to be commended. I include myself as one of those who talks,contributes, but not anything like I should. I admire her follow through.

Did anyone hear the info. that Lieberman is going to be appearing live with Hannity, Coulter, & other right wings in the few days. Don't remember where or what exactly it is. Does anyone have any info about how Connectict is presently feeling about him?

44. The real bugaboo is "equality." But, of course, they can't admit that. Just ask them what they have against equality. Don't use it as a modified as in equal opportunity or equal class size. Just pure equality.
Because that's what a government based on the principle that "all men are created equal." is supposed to follow. It's not just equal treatment in a court of law. It's equality everywhere.

I used to be puzzled by Republicans referring to Democratic elites and thought them confused. But, what they were say was that their elites were OK because Democrats had them too. And they do. There are Democrats who consider themselves better than other people and want their efforts to bend over backwards to help the "less fortunate" to be properly recognized and lauded. But, you know, we don't have to give poor people subsidies, if their wages are sufficient to sustain themselves and the reproduction of their posterity.

Anyway, I had a new slogan pop into my mind. "DARE TO BE WRONG"

I am trying to figure out what type of world we are going to live in? dismantle all the schools, the infrastructure while giving all the money to the rich>

I don't understand it.

The right wingers are nuts.

Their motto is "I have mine and I want  yours too".

47. And don't forget that his wife went down with one of those 9/11 planes. Which is supposed to reassure us that it was all just a terrible foreign terrorist event and all those other people being warned off flying was totally invented.

Hey, but I don't really care. If it was me I would much prefer to have been on those planes than to experience the years of torture that every Iraqi and every American combat troop has experienced since. When, you come right down to it, even the detainees at Guantanamo are getting off easy. What everyone on the ground in Iraq is going through is worse than torture.

"it's the economy stu...":

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ibd/20070911/bs_ibd_ibd/2007911general

Top Dems Push To Left In 2008 As Populist Mood Grows In U.S.

Jed Graham

Tue Sep 11, 7:00 PM ET

...

today's campaign rhetoric harkens back to earlier eras of high economic anxiety.

...

Jared Bernstein, an economist at the liberal Economic Policy Institute, said the climate is ripe for progressive ideas because "the middle class is somewhat more squeezed" by rising costs for health care, housing, education, child care and energy. "And there's a more relative squeeze -- 'I'm kind of treading water while those at the top of the scale are doing so well.'"

Although globalization hasn't prevented solid job growth the past four years and business has seen strong profit growth, workers are enjoying "less impressive real wage outcomes," Bernstein said. "That's what people are reacting to."

...

Keep up the good work - linda b - lookin good

Hi Folks,

Beautiful morning here in contrast to the political scene with George W.  I figure he must be some sort of genius, much the way students in testing sometimes reveal extremely skewed test scores.  I once had a student who was so far over on the right brain scale that logical coherence seemed to be totally absent, but this young person could sing, play an instrument, draw, paint, write poetry, sculpt and the creativity seemed endless.

I wonder if George W. doesn't have a genius for manipulation and control.  To effect a "stay the course" consensus was masterful: flood the news with conflicting reports, promise a drawdown of 3500 troops and by the same time next year, be back to the original 130,000.  Have Petreus, who led the surge, whose plan it was, report on it; thus conflating the actor and the evaluator into one person, stay out of the limelight, mostly, but report in Australia that we're kicking ass (by the way almost no information about the 5000 protestors in Australia for George's visit), fill the air waves with report after report, but nothing definitive; enrage the anti-war people so that their language becomes more and more extreme, etc....

There's a genius in destructiveness, and with respect to our infrastructure, our Constitution, the checks and balances, our treasury, the lives of Americans and Iraqis, and our reputation, George W. seems to have surpassed everyone who has led this country.

So, the question is, what is our strategy?  Martin Luther King didn't enact the Civil Rights Act, but his modeling of behavior and principle with respect to equality led others to do this.  Same was true for Ghandi.  

Peace won't come out of name calling, aggressiveness, war, profiteering, conquering.  The peace that came after WWII was in part the benevolence and care the Marshall Plan provided.  

If we can't live peace within our selves, how on earth are we going to change this government? How can we out think, out maneuver, out persuade George W. and his cronies? How can peace, justice, good governance, ethics, and a benevolent and healthy relationship with each other, all living species, and the enviornment be effected?  I don't think it will happen with aggressiveness, with anger, with fear, with labeling.  I think we become the very thing we despise when we use the tactics of the enemy, and yes, Bush and his coherts is very much the enemy of all these principles that make for  life and peace.

Just some speculations and questions. 

55. Yes. And watching the news this morning talking about the family of the young Yusef that arrived from Iraq to start undergoing 9-12 months of surgeries to (try) repair his young disfigured face after being doused in gasoline and set on fire.

The commentator said "they may decide to stay here after that 12 months, because they don't have the kind of security in Iraq as they do here". WTF YEAH and WE ARE DOING IT.

I really can't even thing about what is being done to that country in our name. And each critter in Congress who isn't yelling to end this disaster of our occupation is guilty of this destruction, for political and special interest gain.

The bombing. The bombing. This is just so disgusting. And what do they think they accomplish with bombing? nothing but massive destruction and killing of innocent people. AND, the COST TO MAKE THESE BOMBS THAT ACCOMPLISH NOTHING GOOD, ONLY BAD. When you think about it, it's about as insane as saying, OK, lets spend billions of dollars to create a cancer that we can give millions of people at one time. And the apropriate response would be WHY? What is supposed to be good about wasting billions of dollars to slowly kill people? What's good about that?


YES.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cq/20070912/pl_cq_politics/republicansenatorsadvisedtogivevoterssomethingnew_1

Republican Senators Advised To Give Voters Something New

By CQ Staff Wed Sep 12, 6:29 AM ET

By Bart Jansen, CQ Staff

Editors have an old saying that reporters hate to hear: “What have you done for me lately?”

Senate Republicans, it seems, are worried that voters may ask a similar question during next year’s campaigns.

...

Senate Republicans were told by pollsters David Winston and Rich Thau to cut the “happy talk” about past tax cuts and economic growth and focus on holding taxes at current levels and reducing wasteful federal spending.

The pollsters raised a few eyebrows at a GOP Conference meeting when senators learned that in a recent poll about twice as many voters listed balancing the federal budget as a priority as gave priority status to either of the runners-up: collecting taxes or growing the economy.

Despite the fact that Republicans figure to face a tough time of it next year — when they will have to defend 22 Senate seats to 12 for the Democrats

...

EXCELLENT Video of CHRIS MATTHEWS and JOE BIDEN on MSNBC video (NOT YouTube)

(10:22) video will automatically adjust to speed of your connection by converting to still-frames for slower connections.

Great points by Chris and Joe - full of energy too.
They also discuss strategy for 2/3 veto override.

http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?g=96...

I'm just saying, it takes more than a "D" by the name to be the kind of Senator we want to see.  Mark Warner is certainly the best known, and best liked, Democrat in the Commonwealth, but that doesn't make him my ideal candidate, unless "just win, baby" (the motto of the Oakland Raiders) is the basis for selection.

Agreed. And picking a candidate based on imagined "electability" is the surest way to pick a loser.

Choose a candidate who best represents principles and policies as espoused in the Democratic platform to best choose a winner. 

Top Dems Push To Left In 2008 As Populist Mood Grows In U.S

It's which direction the nominee pushes after being chosen that will really matter. 

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/story.aspx?guid=%7B91EF7C82%2D4F55%2D4E1F%2D9858%2D000CB726EAA9%7D&siteid=rss

OH, WE'VE GOT BREAKING NEWS

Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) will call for the withdrawal of all US troops from Iraq in Iowa today.

Excerpts follow.

"Let me be clear: There is no military solution in Iraq and there never was," he will say, according to advance remarks from the speech. "The best way to protect our security and to pressure Iraq's leaders to resolve their civil war is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops. Not in six months or one year - now."

*************************
It should be noted that it was Senator Dodd who challenged his to state "clearly and directly........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aP3AJIRN...

One step at a time. You know, leaders keep having to check whether anyone's behind them.

Did anyone else get the impression, from the several evening interveiws, that all Joe Biden heard yesterday in the Hearing was... his own echo?

Talking about the echo of one's own voice while inserted in his own , well i'll be nice, echo chamber.
Joe sit back and let Dennis Kucinich do the driving, or John Warner if you must.
Noone is buying that the killing of al Qaeda by recently insurgent Sunni validates either you or the Constitution they under our cross-hairs.

But good try there Joe, maybe you'll get an .02 boost in the polls.

What happened to the "zoom, zoom" economy ?

I don't care who does it, I just want the killing to stop.

I'm sick and tired of honoring dead soldiers.

67.

It's not just the dead that IMO too America is growing weary of honoring ... :

http://www.politico.com/helenaandrews/

War losses, limb by limb

By: Helena Andrews
September 10, 2007 02:30 PM EST

...

HBO’s newest documentary on the war in the Iraq, “Alive Day Memories: Home from Iraq,” debuted Sunday night, just a day before Congress convened its hearings on the Iraq War report by Army Gen. David Petraeus.

Executive produced by James Gandolfini — yes, Tony Soprano — the film follows the tales of injury of 10 Iraq war veterans who’ve come home alive but not necessarily whole.

...

... the Constitution they made under our cross-hairs.


Monica Smith
Wed, 09/12/07
12:38 pm

Great news!! Now hwe can go back to serving out his term in the Senate as he promised!! Maybe Hillary can stay in the Senate to, this time not voting for all things WAR!!

Sooner is good, for all the others to assume the stand Kucinich has had all along.
While O is a liar, and H is a hawk, E has found courage but very conveniently, where's A(?), i don't know but...

GIVE ME A K... K

I saw this on CSPAN headlines -- don't recall seeing on the borg:

Letter: DNC Silent on N.H. Primary Move

By BRENDAN FARRINGTON
Associated Press Writer
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. — Democratic congressmen from Florida and Michigan asked national party chairman Howard Dean on Tuesday why he has been silent about punishing New Hampshire if it moves up its presidential primary while their states may lose all their delegates.

A letter sent to the Democratic National Committee chairman said Florida had been receiving threats months before state Democrats said they would choose their presidential delegates during the Jan. 29 primary that was set by a Republican-led Legislature and GOP governor.

Article continues...

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/shared-g...

al Qaeda in Al Anbar was a figment of the tribal leaders' imagination.

Sort of like the bogeyman. What's been invented can be uninvented on the spot. You'll remember my post about "liberating Anah" where the alQaeda leader, Abu Hamza, was chased by our marines for months, until the local tribal leaders finally announced that they'd driven him off.

Our troops keep having to re-invent the wheel.

The story of Abu Hamza was published in the Army Times. So, what did they do with it? They scrubbed it off the net. I am still regretting that I didn't copy the whole thing.

68.

Deaniac in GA
Wed, 09/12/07
12:42 pm

But good try there Joe, maybe you'll get an .02 boost in the polls.

===========
If you did watch that video and then do a post like that, you are working for the neocons.

Whoever becomes president on 1/20/09, very well could be having to deal with two albatrosses -- the war in Iraq and an economy in recession.

What a weight to bear.

Here's an update on my passport saga. I got so ticked last night I actually posted a KOS diary (11 people read it lol). Anyway, it's 3 weeks since I filed for passport renewal and that's s/b the outer limit on getting it back if you pay to expedite which I did. I called them last night using the old '0' non option and got a person. She said it was 'in process' and 'no guarantees' and she was the supervisor. So I posted on KOS, then this morning called Cong Stearns office. They said I should have in 2 weeks after they 'send this up' -- don't know exactly what that means but it gave me a glimmer of hope. I wouldn't be so ticked except there was that big headline from the Gov't PR machine last week about everything being back to normal at the passport agency. It is -- Situation Normal AFU. Thanks Condi.

I parse carefully what any candidate says about Iraq, and what they don't say.  I want to know:

1. When they will begin withdrawal?
2. When will they finish?
3. At what rate will they withdraw?
4. Will there be any "residual", and if so, how many and for what purpose? 

And, in a different vein:

1. If they're talking about withdrawing now, how will they force Bush to do so?
2. If they're talking about withdrawing after winning the Presidency, how do they guarantee their actions to us?

Generic statements, anything without hard numbers or specific dates doesn't interest me too much. 

I saw that documentary on HBO on Sunday nite.

Like hitting your head against a brick wall.

Sad, Sad, Sad.

Annilow -

I feel for you regarding your passport situation.

Luckily, I and my wife renewed ours last year, before Jan 1 change to needing a passport if you fly to Canada and Mexico.

Did you already purchase plane tickets to travel outside of the U.S. anywhere or were you just getting your passport renewed ?

FRED from OR
Wed, 09/12/07
12:50 pm

... making friends and over-medicatng as usual. Joe is a neocon/dem, i am a liberal - proudly against war on innocent/loosely affiliated folk, period.

That Joe wants to legitimize the displacement of Iraqi civilians due to his own folly, along with the rest of the DLC traitors, is simply evil.

Can we please leave the usage of medications out of any discourse here ? 

I take an aspirin anytime before I get on this blog, big deal.

79.

* rdorgan
Wed, 09/12/07
12:58 pm

I have travel Dec 9 (I hope!) The 'long form' takes 12 weeks (!!!!) so I paid the add'l $60 which is supposed to get it to you in 3 weeks. I know my travel plans are still 'out there' a little but it's the principle of the thing -- good old capitalist values -- honest advertising, keeping promises, reliable service, that sort of thing.

Monica Smith
Wed, 09/12/07
12:49 pm

Tho not in the high numbers advertised, Wahabbi suicide bombers have gladly come in WITH Iraqi Sunni aid. That is a fact at this point. That they started trying to enforce behavior policing in the Sunni area and did behead those opposed blew it for them.

Between the Sunni tribes and the Shia militias we can now leave them to kill alll the Saudi they please who slink into Iraq.

Relax Monica i've not challenged your A-bomb theory. I think the actual good stuff, if there, can be blown up or flown out.
Actually we have thousands where those came from, some now in AL.

... :~)

Annilow -

Good luck (at least you didn't get tickets yet; trying to get a refund is a real bear).

80.

Deaniac in GA
Wed, 09/12/07
12:59 pm

... making friends and over-medicatng as usual. Joe is a neocon/dem, i am a liberal - proudly against war on innocent/loosely affiliated folk, period.

================

A liberal would not make such a personal attack - not that need to dignify your statement with a response, but my digestive system cannot tolerate medication, which complicates my problem.

You are a self-righteous cynic, who is misinformed, looking ass-backwards at solutions in retro, when you don't know what you are talking about in the present, looking forward.

You iconoclastically bitch about our good leaders who have studied and agonized over this. You are pathetic.

77.

rich^kolker
Wed, 09/12/07
12:55 pm
--------

Rich you want to know too much..., lol.
Especially I like the last one: "...how do they guarantee their actions to us?".

I remember a while ago I said someone must be medicated and got tossed off the blog.

times they are a changing.

time to take some tylonol.

Deaniac: But good try there Joe, maybe you'll get an .02 boost in the polls.

FRED: If you did watch that video and then do a post like that, you are working for the neocons.

Deaniac: ... making friends and over-medicatng as usual. Joe is a neocon/dem, i am a liberal - proudly against war on innocent/loosely affiliated folk, period.

FRED: A liberal would not make such a personal attack.....You are a self-righteous cynic, who is misinformed, looking ass-backwards at solutions in retro, when you don't know what you are talking about in the present, looking forward. You iconoclastically bitch about our good leaders who have studied and agonized over this. You are pathetic.

Hmmmm...no personal attack there. But then, FRED's no liberal.

You iconoclastically bitch about our good leaders who have studied and agonized over this (war)....
----------

ROFLMAO..., that's can't be taken away from our good leader Biden who IS TRULY AGONIZING...about "our brave kids over there" BY... FUNDING this war every time asked!

A liberal is someone who does not tell someone else what to do, unless asked, and then only for their own good.

An authoritarian gives directions to other people as a matter of course and is not averse to giving bad advice because those who follow are proven acolytes.

An authoritative person is not to be confused with an authoritarian. An authoritative person gives advise, when asked or when personal obligation demands, only only on matters in which he/she has acquired expertise, in full cognizance that the advise might not always have the desired result.

Authoritative persons are necessary to promote independent action. They provide a base of security from with other alternatives can be explored without risking too much.

88.

Sitka
Wed, 09/12/07
1:17 pm

Hmmmm...no personal attack there. But then, FRED's no liberal.

=============
Attacking a political position and attitude is not a personal attack

Implying that a person's mental disability or physical disability disqualifies them from giving valid opinions is a personal attack.

90. Monica Smith

================
How about deliberately defaming good people, and accusing them of total deception, in order to justify one's own self-righteous unbending dispositon.

Is that liberal?

Read posts 68. and 80. then watch the video and judge for yourself

http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?g=96...

Since HQ has already put up a new thread, I have FOR THE FIRST TIME - Cross posted over at Daily Kos

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/9/12/133737/595

can u go over and recommend? thanks

Attacking a political position and attitude is not a personal attack

Calling someone ""self righteous cynic," and "pathetic" was a personal attack.

Still no mirrors in the house FRED lives in. 

HERE'S A POLITICIAN WITH A MESSAGE

DON'T WORK, HAVE SEX, Governor says

THE Governor of a central Russian province urged couples to skip work today and make love instead.

And if a woman gives birth in exactly nine months time – on Russia's national day on June 12 – she will qualify for a prize.

"It's normally something for the home – a fridge or a television set," Yelena Yakovleva at the Ulyanovsk regional administration press office, said....

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/st...

80.

Deaniac in GA
Wed, 09/12/07
12:59 pm


That Joe wants to legitimize the displacement of Iraqi civilians due to his own folly...is simply evil.
---------

Don't think it could be stated any more precisely!

one's own self-righteous unbending dispositon.

When's the last time FRED changed position -- or disposition?

What was that about describing oneself? 

Get a mirror. 

96.

FRED from OR
Wed, 09/12/07
1:41 pm



HERE'S A POLITICIAN WITH A MESSAGE

DON'T WORK, HAVE SEX, Governor says
----------

...lol, that's what try liberalism means!

Sitka
Wed, 09/12/07
1:41 pm

Calling someone ""self righteous cynic," and "pathetic" was a personal attack.

Still no mirrors in the house FRED lives in
================

Referring to his political position, he is pathetic as you are too. I have mirrors in my house but I seldom look at them, like you and Deniac in GA do. I have rear-view mirrors in my car too, but I look at the road ahead, and only use the rear-mirror when i need them.

On the other hand, you spend more time talking about votes four years ago, and statements three years ago, than the video today and yesterday.

You and D. in GA use the rear-view mirror when everybody else is looking at the road ahead and the road map ahead.

Yeah, I'm asking for a lot, but...

If someone says they're going to start withdrawing troops today - it's reasonable to ask "and when will you finish?"

If they tell you a start and end date, it's reasonable to ask at what rate they will be removed.  Is it 100 troops today, and the rest one year from today? 

Politicians spin.  The higher the office they seek, the more they spin.  That's why we have an obligation to be educated citizens.

As Aaron Sorkin said, ".America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight."

98.

former
Wed, 09/12/07
1:43 pm

That Joe wants to legitimize the displacement of Iraqi civilians due to his own folly...is simply evil

==============
His initiative was only a small part of the video. Most of the political and defense world, as well as the Iraqi people agree with "Joe's Plan" (not really his original idea alone)

The so-called "Biden Plan" is virtually written into the Iraqi Constitution, scheduled to be enforced in January. Will the central government willingly give up power? Bush & Co. never talk about it. Biden does, because he wants to leave the country now and leave it in peace. Bush & Co. wants to have a war.

Bush is for a strong central government and the status quo. That is more of the same and no exit.

I'm  not interested in what a candidate says he/she will do after elected or nominated.  Putz wasn't going to nation build. They have to do something now and if Obama starts now,  I'll give him a lookie.

Now is what counts, not later, when they can renege.  Perhaps he's also thinking of taking on AIPAC which would impress me.

**********************

Pat,I agree with everything you say.  Unfortunately, this country is being run by Christo-fascists.  If we suddenly all  became Buddhists, war would end.  We are not going to change these people since they are addicts and master manipulators of the public. 

It would help to elect non-fundis, more Quakers, Buddhists,Hindi etc. The people now do not care about others nor about rational discourse, nor even the country. 

As I've said, as long as people believe that all men are born evil, and as long as voters buy into the bible literally and as long as the 3 major religions control their masses, we're not going very far.  Until people recognize that by hurting others they are hurting themselves and that we are One, we're fairly doomed.

Branches of trees do not fight one another.

Suggestion to all:  Read Wayne Dyer's new book.  And then buy the Tao Te Ching.  

On the other hand, you spend more time talking about votes four years ago, and statements three years ago, than the video today and yesterday.

Records matter. Don't hired convicted sex predators to babysit your children and don't hire convicted WarDems to lead your party. 

105. You usually do resort to off-the-wall remarks when you obviously lose an argument.

From Kos:

What could possibly do more damage to Republicans nationwide than to put Pat Buchanan in a high-profile, open-seat Senate race against rising star Mark Warner in formerly Red Virginia?

It just might happen!  The word is out that Pat Buchanan is seriously considering running for the US Senate.

This is even better than when the GOP put up poor Alan Keyes against Barack Obama in Illinois.

 Link

106. Sitka

==========

You usually DO resort to off-the-wall remarks, when you DO lose an argument.

On the other hand, if I were a Rovian Republican, I WOULD hire Sitka and Deniac in GA. and PAY them whatever they wanted. All the right-wing talk radio in the countyr is not as damaging to Democrats as they are.

not insinuating you guys are trolls, mind you, but much more beweildering.

107. rich^kolker

===============
that would be great - hearing anti-war positions from both sides.

seashell :-)
Wed, 09/12/07
1:57 pm

...

 if Obama starts now,  I'll give him a lookie.

Now is what counts, not later, when they can renege.  Perhaps he's also thinking of taking on AIPAC which would impress me.

...

+++

Thanks for the openness.

For a starter, he's already gotten Dershowitz's feathers in a ruffle.

if I were a Rovian Republican, I WOULD hire Sitka and Deniac in GA. and PAY them whatever they wanted.

Why pay us when FRED hawks Bush/GOP doctrine for free?

111.

Sitka
Wed, 09/12/07
2:17 pm

Why pay us when FRED hawks Bush/GOP doctrine for free?

============
Because you spread the outright lie that some of our most intelligent liberal, anti-occupation leaders, like Biden, are nothing more than Repubican-Lite, so why not vote for the real thing?

Because you spread the outright lie that some of our most intelligent liberal, anti-occupation leaders, like Biden, are nothing more than Repubican-Lite

Biden has voted with Bush every step of the way. To say or imply otherwise is the outright lie.

111.

Sitka
Wed, 09/12/07
2:17 pm

Why pay us when FRED hawks Bush/GOP doctrine for free?
=============

Because Joe Biden is out there everyday saying "bring home the troops now - this must end"

AND then you and D. in GA call him "evil" what's with that?

Because Joe Biden is out there everyday saying "bring home the troops now - this must end"

As Rich points out upthread, it's just empty rhetoric without the specifics. And the specifics FRED has posted show that Biden doesn't want to bring ALL of the troops home. So the above quote is misleading at best description and a lie at worst. 

AND then you and D. in GA call him "evil" what's with that?

Actually, I don't use the term "evil."

Reagan's and Bush's use of it spoiled it for me forever.

The Internet can be educational.  While looking for the quote from TAP I used above, I found the following:

Robert M. La Follette

Free Speech in Wartime (Abridged)

delivered 6 Oct 1917 Washington, DC

 It appears to be the purpose of those conducting this campaign to throw the country into a state of terror, to coerce public opinion, to stifle criticism, and suppress discussion of the great issues involved in this war.

[I]n time of war, the citizen must be more alert to the preservation of his right to control his Government. He must be most watchful of the encroachment of the military upon the civil power. He must beware of those precedents in support of arbitrary action by administration officials which, excused on the pleas of necessity in war time, become the fixed rule when the necessity has passed and normal conditions have been restored.

More than all, the citizen and his representative in Congress in time of war must maintain his right of free speech.

More than in times of peace it is necessary that the channels for free public discussion of governmental policies shall be open and unclogged. I believe, Mr. President, that I am now touching upon the most important question in this country today -- and that is the right of the citizens of this country and their representatives in Congress to discuss in an orderly way, frankly and publicly and without fear, from the platform and through the press, every important phase of this war; its causes, and manner in which it should be conducted, and the terms upon which peace should be made.

The belief which is becoming widespread in this land that this most fundamental right is being denied to the citizens of this country is a fact, the tremendous significance of which those in authority have not yet begun to appreciate. I am contending, Mr. President, for the great fundamental right of the sovereign people of this country to make their voice heard and have that voice heeded upon the great questions arising out of this war, including not only how the war shall be prosecuted but the conditions upon which it may be terminated with a due regard for the rights and the honor of this Nation and the interests of humanity.

I am contending for this right because the exercise of it is necessary to the welfare, to the existence of this Government, to the successful conduct of this war, and to a peace which shall be enduring and for the best interests of this country.

Suppose success attends the attempt to stifle all discussion of the issues of this war, all discussions of the terms upon which it should be concluded, all discussion of the objects and purposes to be accomplished by it, and concede the demand of the war-mad press and war extremists that they monopolize the right of public utterance upon these questions unchallenged. What think you would be the consequences to this country not only during the war but after the war?

Mr. President, our Government, above all others, is founded on the right of the people freely to discuss all matters pertaining to their Government, in war not less than in peace. It is true, sir, that Members of the House of Representatives are elected for two years, the President for four years, and the Members of the Senate for six years, and during their temporary official terms these officers constitute what is called the Government.

But back of them always is the controlling, sovereign power of the People, and when the people can make their will known, the faithful officer will obey that will. Though the right of the People to express their will by ballot is suspended during the term office of the elected official, nevertheless the duty of the official to obey the popular will shall continue throughout his entire term of office. How can that popular will express itself between elections except by meetings, by speeches, by publications, by petitions, and by addresses to the representatives of the people?

Any man who seeks to set a limit upon those rights, whether in war or peace, aims a blow at the most vital part of our Government. And then, as the time for election approaches and the official is called to account for his stewardship -- not a day, not a wee, not a month, before the election, but a year or more before it, if the people choose -- they must have the right to the freest possible discussion of every question upon which their representative has acted, of the merits of every measure he has supported or opposed, of every vote he has cast, and every speech that he has made.

And before this great fundamental right every other must, if necessary, give way. For in no other manner can representative government be preserved.

Biden on Charlie Rose thinks Crocker and Petraeus don't believe a strong central government will be successful. Biden doesn't think surge was successful.

Lindsay Graham thinks the surge was good, but thinks agrees there will be a grass roots move away from Central Government.

They seemed to have a very friendly disagreement on progress in Iraq.

Biden says Sunnis in Anbar have resolved with the U.S. (fighting Al Qaeda) but they are not close to the central government and ending civil war.

Biden thinks sectarian violence will be worse in two months. Graham thinks it will get better.

Graham was concerned about 23,000 detainees in jail in Iraq, 85% are Sunnis, that they need to be brought to trial and/or released.

Biden thinks 95% of fighting is Sectarian, 5% is Jihad. Biden has to leave the set.

Graham thinks we have a new strategy that is better and working, says that Biden doesn't think anything we do with the military will help at this point.

Dodd speaking.

Charlie Rose notes to Dodd, that Dodd and Kennedy are best of friend, why did they disagree on the vote in October 2002?

Dodd starts by saying those who voted yes, were more concerned with inspections than an invasion at the time.

Dodd thinks things cannot get much worse in Iraq.

Visited a soldier in Walter Reed who said, "as soon as we leave an area, they people we are fighting go back in." He said "the local people know where the munitions are, know where the IEDs are but won't tell us"

fyi - now two Front threads ahead of this one

http://www.blogforamerica.com/view/22179...

new thread