Howard Dean is first!

I think the blog is programmed that if you 'contact blog tech support' a new thread pops up lol.

Hey Keshe, good luck and I will call all I can. Maybe I will email Jim Webb and see if he can take to the floor of the senate on this measure.

We are with ya kiddo.

Also Keshe is first on this matter. A formidalble task to undertake.

formidable, that is.

How Lost the War Is

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/57286/

Neither the President nor the war's intellectual architects are prepared to admit this. Nonetheless, the specter of defeat shapes their thinking in telling ways.

On May 30, the Coalition held a ceremony in the Kurdistan town of Erbil to mark its handover of security in Iraq's three Kurdish provinces from the Coalition to the Iraqi government. General Benjamin Mixon, the U.S. commander for northern Iraq, praised the Iraqi government for overseeing all aspects of the handover. And he drew attention to the "benchmark" now achieved.

Although the Erbil handover was a sham that Prince Potemkin might have admired, it was not easily arranged. The Bush administration had wanted the handover to take place before the U.S. congressional elections in November. But it also wanted an Iraqi flag flown at the ceremony and some acknowledgement that Iraq, not Kurdistan, was in charge. The Kurds were prepared to include a reference to Iraq in the ceremony, but they were adamant that there be no Iraqi flags. It took months to work out a compromise ceremony with no flags at all. Thus the ceremony was followed by a military parade without a single flag -- an event so unusual that one observer thought it might merit mention in Ripley's Believe it or Not.

Against the backdrop of modest progress, much has not changed, or has gotten worse. The Baghdad Green Zone is subject to increasingly accurate mortar attacks and is deemed at greater risk of penetration by suicide bombers. Moqtada al-Sadr, the radical Shiite cleric whose Mahdi Army was a major target of Bush's surge strategy, remains one of Iraq's most powerful political figures. The military activity against his forces seems only to have enhanced his standing with the public.

I would like to flog my diary at KOS.

There's also an interesting diary on Edwards' one America tour which seems to be being ignored by the CM.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/19/...

President Bush shocked Capitol Hill staffers and Republican leaders Monday when he crashed a meeting at the White House to deliver a blunt message that he wasn't backing down on Iraq and Republicans need to understand that.

"It was stunning," said one GOP aide who attended the meeting. "We couldn't believe he came in."

from kos.

and don't worry about the msm, no one watches them anymore.

7.

No sense in flogging it Monica, it seems fine to me! lol

6.
Really great analysis. I'm going to steal it for Hannah.

64.

rich^kolker
Wed, 07/18/07
2:20 pm

....
There is groupthink here that is dangerous. I can see that even when I agree with the common position. If we are the reason-based community, then we need to acknowledge that.
-------------

I've found this post very interesting and replied yesterday. However, I think it might be interesting for many of us to expand on this a little.

For example, I would be interested in particular to find out:

a) What exactly is “dangerous” in “groupthink”?
b) What exactly “groupthink” is?
c) Does the fact of agreement “with the common position” represent “groupthink” and why it might become “dangerous”?

Please Rich, (or anyone) to expand on these a little.

The blog is acting funny.

wouldn't let me put up a new post on DFALink.

bbl

He's not even a candidate, yet, but Idaoans choose Gore!



The results are in
Poll: Idahoans Deem Mitt Fit and Want More Gore


By J. Gelband, 7-18-07


This just in: Results from a poll of Idahoans indicate that the state’s voters prefer former Vice President Al Gore and former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney for president in 2008.

Of the Idaho Democrats polled, 31 percent indicated they would vote for Gore. Senators Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama came in second and third, respectively, with 23 percent and 22 percent.

Senator John Edwards received 10 percent, “another candidate” got 6 percent and 8 percent were still undecided.




Now there are website popping up pushing a Gore/ Hillary as VP LOL.


President Gore
2009-

If the blog is working...

Examples of groupthink are "inside the beltway", or "the MSM", or many religions.  That is, there is a common set of beliefs that reinforce each other and tend to serve as antibodies for contrary thought. 

Groupthink is contrary to the healthy operation of a civil society ( think I'll repost my civil society article).

Organizations can serve a common goal without desending into groupthink.  Indeed, I think DFA 1.0 for the most part, at least in terms of BFA 1.0 managed to do so.  At its best, so does the Democratic Party  (although not always).

For an interesting discussion on groupthink in the media (which is nothing new) read "The Boys on the Bus" a book about the coverage of the 1972 (or maybe it was 1976) Presidential primaries.

US says Iraqi rebel head is an invention
Tina Susman in Baghdad
July 20, 2007

IN MARCH, he was declared captured. In May, he was declared killed, and his purported corpse was displayed on state-run TV.

On Wednesday, Omar al-Baghdadi, the supposed leader of an al-Qaeda-affiliated group in Iraq, was declared non-existent by US military officials, who say he is a fictional character created to give an Iraqi face to a foreign-run terrorist group.

In reality, said Brigadier-General Kevin Bergner, an Iraqi actor has read statements attributed to al-Baghdadi, who has been identified since October as the leader of the group, known as Islamic State of Iraq.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/us-says...

Rich wrote: "For an interesting discussion on groupthink in the media (which is nothing new) read 'The Boys on the Bus' a book about the coverage of the 1972 (or maybe it was 1976) Presidential primaries."

It was the 1972 election.

11.

... well, i agree that many times i agree with a lot of others here on a course of action OR moving against something that is bad. When i don't think i'm with the main crowd it doesn't make me afraid - nor does it offend my status as a leader here, because i'd never make that assumption in the first place.

The only danger to this place is any attempt to force us all in one direction, for 'unity' or 'loyalty' or even 'effectivensee'. When the cause is just and requires action there will be enough of us that rally, to make the sacrifice - we don't need to be unanimous.

Hey linda b,

That would be great about Webb!  And you know what else you Virginians can do?  Appeal to Sen. Warner to NOT vote for a filibuster (which Mitch McConnell is planning to do).  Even if Warner is too unenlightened to vote for the bill, the least he can do is to get out of the way and allow an up or down vote on a voting rights bill.  Remind him that the only people who filibuster VR bills have historically been segregationists...

What is a civil society? In my attempts to define it, I've come up with the following five points:

• Rule of Law
• Respect of Minority Opinion
• "First Amendment Freedoms"
• Economic Dynamism
• Valuing People

A civil society has respect of minority opinion. There are many examples around the world of "one man, one vote, one time," where once an election is held, the victor uses the power obtained to ensure there is never another, or that any further elections place the "opposition" at such a disadvantage that the resulting "vote" is a farce. Structures in Constitutions such as requiring supermajorities for amendment and unlimited debate are put there to protect minority opinion against a motivated majority.

A civil society protects the rights of individuals to believe as they wish and promote those beliefs. The "vulgar" form of this is "everyone's entitled to an opinion." In the US Constitution these basic rights are encapsulated in the First Amendment, guaranteeing freedom of speech, of the press, of the right of the people to peaceably assemble, to worship (or not) as they wish and to petition the government if their beliefs are unduly restricted.

The points until now have been political, but there are also economic aspects to a civil society. One I call economic dynamism. That is, there is nothing in a civil society that prevents someone from obtaining economic success through their own efforts. The inverse is also true, a civil society provides no undue protection from failure (this might be considered the economic corollary of "rule of law"). Artificial obstacles to economic growth (for example requiring membership in a "guild" or a government charter to operate a business) are counter to civil society.

The economic equivalent to the "First Amendment freedoms" is what I call valuing people. Since totally unrestricted free enterprise has lead and leads to the abuse of individual workers as well as providing dangerously faulty products, a civil society provides protection against the dictatorship of the dollar (or drachma, or dinar, or other kinds of money not starting with a "d"). These protections include the right to organize, to expect safety in the workplace and safe food, drugs and products.

This definition of a civil society isn't perfect, but I hope it provides a starting point for discussion of civil society and its importance, because I think civil society is what we desire in the United States, and what we desire for all people around the world.

14. Rich, I know you are a defender of the "MSM", and I'm sure they're very good at covering some things.

On Iraq, and the Bush Administration crimes however, they have failed utterly.

They're the ones guilty of "groupthink".

Compare NYT and Wapo in the Nixon era with their sorry performance vis-a-vis Bush and Republicans.

Hey all   - Kesh is going to the Daily Kos convention and doing a panel on the DC Voting Rights bill.

So you all call your senators and get them on board.

McConnell is one nasty guy.

Fillibuster a voting rights bill?

Don't think so.

Anyone got cab fare? Kesh?

15. good post. Does this also mean that *we* meaning Democrats (which I am not) are all supposed to rally around the Democratic candidate even if they don't share *our* principles? Because I think that's groupthink a la Bill Clinton's line *first you fall in love, then you fall in line*.

I'm not falling in line if it's someone I don't believe in.

Calling Sen Warner now...........................

16.

... remember when this hick proposed that our war-criminal pResnut, and the quickly ethicly rotting special ops folks, were inventing these characters or at least playing along with the charade because, at least on this side of the oceans,...

fear is a very useful tool.

It was the 1972 election.

I thought so, but then I doubted myself.  I should have just Googled and found (at Wikipedia):

The Boys on the Bus (1973) is author Timothy Crouse's seminal non-fiction book detailing life on the road for reporters covering the 1972 United States presidential campaign.

The book was one of the first treatises on pack journalism ever to be published, following in the footsteps of Gay Talese's 1969 "fly on the wall" look into the New York Times called The Kingdom and the Power.

The Boys on the Bus evolved out of several articles Crouse had written for Rolling Stone. When released, the book became a best-seller and is still in print today, often being used as a standard text in many university journalism courses.

 And is still available at Amazon

17,

Right. And in 2006 one of the foreign AlQaeda being hunted in al Anbar was a fellow named Abu Hamza, whom they never found, probably because the Brits had just sentenced him to seven years in prison in Britain.

Our military in Iraq isn't just out of touch with what's going on there; they have no idea what's going on in the rest of the world. The news black-out seems to go both ways.

I remember 1972 because I was in college and subscribing to the Rolling Stone when Tim Crouse filed his series of reports on the primary, at the same time that Hunter Thompson was writing Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail, both of which later became books.  I cast my first presidential vote for McGovern. 

*first you fall in love, then you fall in line*.

I've been around the track too many to fall in love or in line every four years.

21.

actually, according to Justice Kennedy, the agents of government and the general population are subject to law differently. Under the rule of law, the agents of government are limited to performing only those acts that are permitted and/or mandated. The general public, on the other hand, which actually promulgates the laws, is prohibited from certain actions--commonly referred to as criminal violations.
You could say that the agents of government have a positive mandate--things they may and must do--while the people have a negative mandate--things they may not do.
Bush/Cheney would like to apply both the negative and positive to the public and exempt themselves entirely.

17.
Now you know why the CIA is pissed with the N.S.A. and the Pentagon, who've tried to take over their functions.

according to Justice Kennedy, the agents of government and the general population are subject to law differently.

Scotter Libby comes to mind.

Scooter Libby is consistent with this:

Bush/Cheney would like to apply both the negative and positive to the public and exempt themselves entirely.

14.

rich^kolker
Thu, 07/19/07
11:14 am

........
That is, there is a common set of beliefs that reinforce each other and tend to serve as antibodies for contrary thought.

Groupthink is contrary to the healthy operation of a civil society ( think I'll repost my civil society article).

Organizations can serve a common goal without desending into groupthink. Indeed, I think DFA 1.0 for the most part, at least in terms of BFA 1.0 managed to do so. At its best, so does the Democratic Party (although not always).
.....
-----------

Thanks Rich.
I'll try to find "The Boys on the Bus" book.

If I'm not mistaken the foundation, the pillars for "groupthink" IS "a common set of beliefs that reinforce each other and tend to serve as antibodies for contrary thought". Correct?

If yes, then under that definition religion (any one) clearly falls under and therefore it's dangerous. Would that be logical conclusion, that religion is dangerous?

31 was obviously written after 32 LOL

and 32 was written after 33

and 32 was written after 33 and after 34

Why does Sitka keep slipping?

And Rich gets the last word. double LOL

Based on the blog's operation, you can probably dispense with a post's particular number in subsequent comments as useful reference points.  The numbers only rarely remain associated with the comments they're assigned to.

The MSM is, to an increasing extent, falling victim to groupthink (although as I note above it is not new).

There are a variety of reasons this is happening : the increasing group ownership of media outlets -- newspapers, radio and television, reporters seeing themselves more as the insiders than the outsiders of polite society which ties them to the subjects of their reporting, the need for economic viability of  "news divisions" of entertainment companies and, ironically, the ease of communication which makes it possible for a reporter for the Podunk Times to read the New York Times (or New York Post) and take it as a model rather than building his or her own voice for Podunk.

There is no more honored name in journalism than Edward R. Murrow, but at the time, people who worked with him spoke of "High Murrow" and "Low Murrow".  The same person who took on McCarthy without regard to the fact it could end his career and affect CBS' earnings (High Murrow),  also did the 1950's version of the Barbara Walters Interviews, Person to Person (Low Murrow) to make himself, and the network, money.  What was different then was that the News Division wasn't expected to make money as a whole, it was seen as a service obligation which came with a broadcast license.  High Murrow and Low Murrow didn't mix.  Today, Katie Couric anchors the CBS Evening News.  She's a bigger story than the sories she covers, and Paris Hilton is considered news when what's happening in the government in Paris, France isn't.

I got a little off groupthink there, but it's tied to reporters seeing themselves as part of the in crowd, instead of its watchdog.  It's tied to anchors having million dollar homes instead of messy apartments.  All their friends and acquaintences feel like X, so they think everyone does.  Those who don't play by their rules aren't let into the clubhouse.

And we, here, fall into the same trap. 

 So it goes.

23. ( to answer if i'm a get-in-liner)

Just yesterday on our local afternoon talk radio show, which is nearlt at the top of local ratings in all catagories, we had a surprise visit from former Rep. Harold Ford Jr. (D-TN).
As we know he is now head of the fascist corporate DLC, and that he did and continues to debase Howard Dean. He lost to a one-term mayor of Chattanooga, one Bob Corker, despite his many years of experience in the U.S. House, in his run for the U.S. Senate.
He lost IMHO because it would have made no difference in most votes on the important issues, to citizens as opposed to corporations, whether he or his opponent held the office.
He came to advertise basically two things; 1) that he encourages the current officeholders to fall in with 'a
change in strategy' on Iraq, tho he derided folks like Jack Murtha and Howard dean all along.(he alluded to the Biden plan, tho hedged it somewhat) 2) to announce the gathering of the 'powerful' at a DLC "Conversation" event in the near future.
He even explained who these 'powerful' were, and it weren't any of us lowly voters. Yes, it was politicians and heads of PACs. He said straight out that they'd be wined and dined then given 'white papers' to guide them in the coming season.
He said that the DLC was the place where things 'get done', implying strongly that the DNC was merely partisan and kinda, ya know, full of lunies.
Well i got on just after his free advertisement, they don't let me at the fascists very often these days because of the crying they have done in the past when i destroy their lies/propaganda. And i did just that...

destroyed his lies and propoganda. Heck, it didn't take much either, he proved with his own words his distain for input from the, ya know mythical, little people... and especially Howard Dean.

Blog has been revitalized..., lol.
Thanks Rich!

22.

linda b
Thu, 07/19/07
11:24 am




Hey all - Kesh is going to the Daily Kos convention and doing a panel on the DC Voting Rights bill.

So you all call your senators and get them on board.

McConnell is one nasty guy.

----->>>yes, linda b, most people that live a lie have pent up anger and he certainly does. Worse is that they hurt more, people like his hidden lifestyle, in an effort to be total opposite. Of course it eats away at them.

If yes, then under that definition religion (any one) clearly falls under and therefore it's dangerous. Would that be logical conclusion, that religion is dangerous?

The short answer is yes.

The long answer is more complex.

One of the things I like about Judaism is that it has a tradition of questioning within the faith.  Rabbi or Rebbe means "teacher".  I'm not enough of an expert on it or any other religion to get into the guts of what any religion teaches, but to the extent any religion says "do not question, but take on faith" it is dangerous to civil society.

That does not infer (or it least it shouldn't) that everything faith and religion has brought to the table throughout human society is bad. One can be told to take good ideas on faith as well as bad.  We have "love thy neighbor" and also the Crusades.  But humans are reasoning animals, and whenever we are asked to substitute an appeal to authority for our own knowledge and reason, we are being less than we are capable of being.

40.

heck rich, you've always been welcome in our community pool, what are you thinkin'?

Now, not excusing oneself to the clubhouse when necessary... that's different. lol

14.

rich^kolker
Thu, 07/19/07
11:14 am



Examples of groupthink are "inside the beltway", or "the MSM",..
----------

What is "MSM" here..., sorry.

Groupthink blah blah blah......

I wonder why some come here to lecture the people on this blog about what's wrong with them? You'd think they'd just find one where they like and respect most of the people if not always agree with them.

What is "MSM" here..., sorry.

 I used to work at NASA and we love our TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms) :-)

Main Stream Media 

The disgusting part this article is that Voinovich is saying he knows Iraq is fubar and should end, but the Democrats are the ones asking, so NO.

DISGUSTING. Talk about playing politics over our military and their LIVES, and the Iraqi's LIVES.

VOINOVICH, you are disgusting.

Bush told Iraq war has helped al-Qa’eda
By Tim Shipman in Washington
Last Updated: 3:00am BST 19/07/2007

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jht...

Why does Sitka keep slipping?

I've been slipping for years now.

Sitka,

If we are to criticize the President for not being sufficiently self aware to accept criticism and consider it for action, how can we ask any less of ourselves?

MSM stands somewhat discredited as an acronym since it implies that the media is actually mainstream and serves the public at large. Corporate Media, CM, is a more accurate one since the media is owned by and serves Corporate America.

50.

Criticize yourself all you'd like! Don't include others, as tho you speak for them, then call it 'we'.

Tho i don't have time to post a bunch of links, i'm kinda all over the cr@p going on in Pakistan these days...

Our fine and brave military folk in Afghanistan are in a world of voodoo when both Iran, due to an illegally led attack by the Evil D!ck, and Pakistan fall into extremeist hands - even if the nukes are somehow guarded. Our Air Force won't be able to go unchallenged to support our folk if both Iran and Pakistan must defend their territory.

how can we ask any less of ourselves?

Physician, heal thyself. I just have little patience with anyone who dispenses en masse missives about what's wrong with the people who blog here. Defensive of my friends I guess.

General agreement on many issues is not groupthink. And if you were around more often perhaps you'd notice that we disagree with each other a lot -- but it's usually friendly and without patronizing lectures.

bbl

Love ya'll, mean it!!

DEMOCRATS FAIL.........AGAIN

http://www.counterpunch.org/frank07192007.html

It was a slumber party on Capital Hill. Democrats held an all-nighter on July 17 in an attempt to mollify the great antiwar sentiment that is raging across the land. But their attempt to challenge Bush's war on Iraq was sanctimonious and superficial at best. Not only were the Democrat's pleas to set a timetable for withdraw fully pathetic, so too was their moral indignation.

The Democrats certainly don't contest Bush's Middle East foreign policy, they embrace it. Just last week the Senate voted 97-0 in favor of moving toward war with Iran.

The Democrats don't really want to end the war despite their veneer of opposition. If they desired to end the war they would have halted its funding long ago. Likelise, if they really preferred to challenge the Bush falsehoods regarding Iran, they would do so. Instead the Democrats, including their top presidential contenders Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama who voted in favor of holding Iran accountable for the killing of US soldiers, seem to want to handle Iran militarily.

The amendment, H.R.1585, written by Sen. Joe Lieberman, repeats the same round of vacant lies the neocons have been advancing for quite sometime. Iranian influence in Iraq is now becoming the accepted reason among American political elites as to why US forces are failing. The Lieberman amendment also claims that Iran is providing a safe-haven for al Qaeda fighters, even though the group is allegedly blowing up Iraqi Shias daily.

American soldiers aren't being killed because of Iran; we are losing because there is no such thing as real victory for the US in Iraq. There is only death.

The Democrat's Senate sleepover was a fraud replete with staged confessions and overt hypocrisies. They don't want to end the war; the Democrats want to extend it to Iran by making the case that the Iranians are behind the US catastrophe in Iraq. Washington is covertly setting the stage legislatively for a military confrontation with Iran. It's our job to stop them.

Patient: Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when I do this.

Doctor: Don't do that.

ba dum. (or for Soprano fans) Ba Da Bing (also for my fellow relatives in New York)

MORE MEDIA GROUPTHINK

http://www.counterpunch.org/solomon07192007.html

A big media lie is that members of Congress are doing all they can when they try and fail to pass measures that would impose a schedule for withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq. The Constitution gives Congress the power to pay for war -- and to stop a war by refusing to appropriate money for it. Every vote to pay for more war is soaked with blood.