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Incompetence.

Written by: DFA Intern on Apr 8, 2006 2:43 PM EDT

In an article entitled "Incompetent Design," William Rivers Pitt of Truthout.org exposes the fallacy of the "incompetence" excuse for the Bush administration's wrongdoings. Last week, Bush washed his hands of the awful situation in Iraq, saying that the length of American troops' stay in the country "will be decided by future presidents and future governments of Iraq." In his article, Pitt draws an insightful analogy between the Bush administration's handling of the war and vandalism.

I am going to find a china shop somewhere in the city and walk in with a free-swinging baseball bat. My goal, which will be clearly stated, will be to improve upon the place. I will spend the next three years meticulously destroying everything I see inside, from the cash registers to the display cases to the nice Royal Albert tea sets in the corner. Along the way, I will batter the brains out of any poor sod unfortunate enough to get in my way. When I am done, I will claim with as much self-righteousness as I can muster that none of the mess is my responsibility. I will then, of course, refuse to leave.

Hey, if the president can do it, it must be legal, right? Unfortunately, the difference between my china shop analogy and what the Bush administration is doing in Iraq is that I won't get anything out of it except an arrest record and a chance to enjoy my state's municipal accommodations. Bush and crew are reaping far better benefits from the mayhem they have caused.

Here's the deal, in case anyone is wondering: none of this, not one bit of it, can be or should be chalked up to "incompetence" on the part of Bush or anyone else within his administration. This was not a mishandled situation. Bush and the boys have gotten exactly, precisely what they wanted out of Iraq, and are now looking forward to fobbing it off on the next poor dupe who staggers into the Oval Office. They got what they came for, and have quit.

Consider the facts. For two elections in a row, 2002 and 2004, the GOP was able to successfully demagogue the rafters off the roof about supporting the troops and being patriotic, placing anyone who questioned the merits of the invasion squarely into the category of "traitor." Meanwhile, military contractors with umbilical ties to the administration have cashed in to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars.

The same goes for the petroleum industries; did you know there are gas lines today in oil-rich Iraq? It's true. The oil infrastructure is fine; indeed, it is the most well-guarded point of pressure in Iraq. There are gas lines because companies like Halliburton are not pumping the oil. They are sitting on it, keeping it as a nice little nest egg.

One would think this administration would be worried about the violence and chaos in Iraq. They aren't, because the violence has become the justification for "staying the course." Bush will mouth platitudes about bringing democracy to the region, but that is merely the billboard. What he and his friends from the Project for the New American Century wanted in the first place, and what they have now, is a permanent military presence over there. There was never any consideration of a timetable for withdrawal, because there was never any intention to withdraw. The violence today is a self-perpetuating justification, a perfect circle lubricated by blood, oil and currency.

Keeping our attention on Iraq has allowed this administration to do what it came to do under cover of darkness. They have managed to eviscerate dozens of federal regulations designed to make sure our children aren't born with gills or seventeen eyes thanks to the pollution in the air, water and food. The Clean Air Act is pretty much gone now, as are requirements for food safety labeling. GOP "pension reform" means growing old in America amounts to growing poor, just like in the good old days of the Depression. Millions of elderly people have been fed to the wolves by way of the new Medicare Plan D calamity. There are now tens of millions more poor people in America, the middle class is evaporating, but top incomes are up 497% according to the Federal Reserve.


When the facts are laid out, it's impossible to believe the Bush administration got our country into the mess it's in today by accident. It was deliberate.

The poll numbers say that nearly 70% of the country believes we are heading in the wrong direction in Iraq and here at home. This is edifying, to say the least. It means that people like me can stop trying to point out all the things that have gone wrong, because at long last a huge majority of the country has come to see things for how they actually are. But it also means that we as a nation are required now to move past what is actually happening, and ask why it is happening.

Batting down the "incompetence" argument is easy; all one has to do is see what this administration and its friends have gained in the last five years. The rest of the answer is more difficult, because it has to do with us, with we the people, and the staggering degree to which we take our rights and freedoms for granted.

When we hear about our government spying on American citizens without warrants or due process of law, when we hear the president say he does not have to tell Congress anything if he doesn't want to, when we hear the president claim the right to torture, all too often the response is, "Well, I'm not doing anything wrong, so I don't have to worry about it."

But we do have to worry about it. Patriots from Lexington to Gettysburg to Bastogne lie cold in their graves because they died to defend the freedoms we would so casually cast aside. Could we stand before the endless ranks of the fallen and say the rights they died to protect have no bearing on us, because we are "not doing anything wrong?" Is that not the most selfish, conceited, lazy answer we could possibly offer in the face of their sacrifice?

George W. Bush quit on us last week. He quit because he has accomplished everything he came to do. He will get away with it because, for the most part, the American people have also quit. We take what we have for granted, and assume the difficult tasks will be handled by someone else. Rest assured, they will be. They will be handled by other craven opportunists like Bush, by corporations looking to turn a profit off our indifference, by those among us who couldn't care less about you and yours.

The American people have come to see that things have gone wrong. Imagine what would happen if we decided to do something about it.


—Meredith Adams

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By ElaineinRoanokeVA on Apr 8, 2006 2:48 PM EDT

Howard Dean is first...always. Thank you, Howard, for all you have done. Thank you DFA for continuing the work.

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By ElaineinRoanokeVA on Apr 8, 2006 2:51 PM EDT
Thankful2Thankful4Dean wrote on April 8, 2006 01:55 PM:

Saw Al Weed last week at a dinner for the Democrats in the district he seeks to represent. He's just as fine as he ever was! Hey, DFA folks...both Al Weed and Jim Webb could use you help, i.e., donations....Let's send a message to the Repugs.
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By ElaineinRoanokeVA on Apr 8, 2006 2:58 PM EDT
Here is one reason we should NEVER put out soldiers into combat unless there is absolute proof of the necessity:

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1674097.php

Three officers — including an infantry battalion commander and two of his company commanders — were fired April 7 for “lack of confidence,” a Corps spokesman said. Relieved were Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani, who commanded the Camp Pendleton, Calif.-based 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines; India Company commander Capt. James Kimber; and Kilo Company commander Capt. Luke McConnell, said 2nd Lt. Lawton King, a spokesman for 1st Marine Division at Camp Pendleton.
Officials previously have confirmed that Chessani’s battalion was under investigation for an alleged Nov. 19 rampage by the battalion’s Kilo Company Marines in the Iraqi city of Haditha that left 15 civilians dead, including seven women and three children.
The decision to relieve the three officers was made by Maj. Gen. Richard Natonski, 1st Marine Division commander, “due to lack of confidence in their leadership abilities stemming from their performance during a recent deployment to Iraq,” King said.
Lawton did not explicitly connect the Haditha investigation to the firings but said the “decision was motivated by multiple incidents that occurred throughout the entire deployment.”
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By seashell on Apr 8, 2006 3:00 PM EDT
PLEASE change the thread title since it appears at first glance to promote the idea of incompetence and there may be many people who don't and haven't read the full article.

I was dismayed big time when I signed on; since those of us who pay attention know that incompetence is NOT the problem.

How about:

Incompetence - NOT
Incompetence? - NO WAY
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By ElaineinRoanokeVA on Apr 8, 2006 3:04 PM EDT

Please check out www.webbforsenate.com

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By MonicaSmith on Apr 8, 2006 3:11 PM EDT
Well, it's what I have been arguing for some time. But, I would go further and argue that it's not about cronies becoming more wealthy. No, it's about power--the ability to control the globe. This is both a bad thing and a good. It's bad because it's more wicked than we can easily imagine; it's good because the majority of the people on the globe aren't going to let themselves be controlled.
The only thing worse that can happen is if the US unleashes a total nuclear holocaust. In that case, human beings as we know them will be gone. Sure, there will be some remnant populations and there will be some significant mutations, some of which will be viable, but the human species with which we are familiar will be gone.
Do the perpetrators of this mayhem care? Not likely. They are into destruction. Destruction is evidence of their power. Therefor there is nothing to inhibit their behavior on an individual level. Others will have to take action.
The big question now is whether democracies are sufficiently strong to be self-correcting. Or will it be necessary for others to step in?

For some humans, the impulse to control other humans is irresistable, even if that control leads to the extinction of that which is to be controlled. Think of parents who end up beating their children to death in an effort to "impose discipline." It's the same pattern.

The story of Abraham and Isaac should serve as a warning. Abraham was willing to slay his son to demonstrate his obedience. Then God said, no that's not necessary, go kill that goat in the thicket instead. But the message was still that it is good to be obedient. The problem we have is that humans do not have the wisdom to see that killing other humans is counter-productive.
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By MonicaSmith on Apr 8, 2006 3:17 PM EDT
ElaineinRoanokeVA wrote on April 8, 2006 02:58 PM:

Well, that's not the only time it's happened. What made that incident different is that there were witnesses who came forward and testified.

American troops have killed countless civilians, in part because they can't tell the difference between who's for them and who's against them and in part because they feel deceived by the people they were sent to "protect."
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 3:25 PM EDT
ElaineinRoanokeVA wrote on April 8, 2006 02:58 PM:


Here is one reason we should NEVER put out soldiers into combat unless there is absolute proof of the necessity:
<<

people are relived for "lack of confidence" infrequently, but frequently enough to make this case not very valid of "anything".

Wrong conclusions.

Robert
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 3:27 PM EDT
In his article, Pitt draws an insightful analogy between the Bush administration's handling of the war and vandalism. <<

Pitts article is ridiculous. It lacks any comprehension of the nature of massive social change.

I would have wondered what he would have said of the riots of the 60's (1960's), The Civil War ("the south use to do x and y but all their factories are destroyed, wasnt the civil war evil")...Germany post WWII...

Pitt is trying to throw facts together to make an argument.

Robert
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By puddle*in*WV on Apr 8, 2006 3:28 PM EDT

Larry ~~ done!

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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 3:29 PM EDT
MonicaSmith wrote on April 8, 2006 03:11 PM:



The story of Abraham and Isaac should serve as a warning. Abraham was willing to slay his son to demonstrate his obedience.<<

no.

you dont understand the story, or the reasons for it.

A hint. It was not only that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son, but Issac was willing to be sacrificed.

Figure out that pivot point and you might get closer.



Robert
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 3:30 PM EDT
trinite wrote on April 8, 2006 03:28 PM:


This painting shows several blind individuals following a blind leader into a ditch.
<<

I get it..the far left following Cindy Sheehan!

Robert
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 3:34 PM EDT
puddle*in*WV wrote on April 8, 2006 02:16 PM:


Accordingly, McCain was a lackluster student and received many demerits. He graduated in 1958, and joked that he had followed the footsteps of his father and grandfather, both of whom had graduated very low in their respective classes at Annapolis. (McCain graduated 894th out of a class of 899.)
<<

And his grandfather went on to become an Admiral who reinvented CArrier Warfare ("I have sent McCain")...and his father, well his Dad was CincPAC....Nimitz old job.

McCain helped some very good folks get Presidential appointments to Canoe U...and they called to thank him remarking they hoped to do as well as he did at Canoe U...and his reply was "OH no do better".

They did! They all did!

Robert
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By puddle*in*WV on Apr 8, 2006 3:35 PM EDT

Yeah, guys, mustn't be lurd into reading a William Rivers Pitt article. . . .

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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 3:36 PM EDT
mprov wrote on April 8, 2006 03:21 PM:<<

on your discussion about war.

"it is good that war is so terrible least we grow fond of it"

It is a hard one to understand...

Sierra Hotel.

Robert
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By puddle*in*WV on Apr 8, 2006 3:38 PM EDT
They did! They all did!

Robert
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yep. Guess it takes a LOT of effort to avoid graduating fifth from the bottom of your class. . . .
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 3:38 PM EDT
puddle*in*WV wrote on April 8, 2006 03:35 PM:


Yeah, guys, mustn't be lurd into reading a William Rivers Pitt article. . . .
<<

the only ones I read are the ones here, and I dont read those frequently...but I am finishing another piece of pecan pie with icecream while waiting for "a situation" to end...so I read what was posted here.

If this is the best he got...he's pretty light. the blind leading the blind.

Robert
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 3:39 PM EDT
puddle*in*WV wrote on April 8, 2006 03:38 PM:


They did! They all did!

Robert
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Yep. Guess it takes a LOT of effort to avoid graduating fifth from the bottom of your class. . . .
<<

yeah, but in all their casses (well the nephew has a few more years) everyone graduated below them!

Robert
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By puddle*in*WV on Apr 8, 2006 3:39 PM EDT
Pitt is trying to throw facts together to make an argument.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah, *that'd* be a big mistake, wouldn't it?
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 3:43 PM EDT
puddle*in*WV wrote on April 8, 2006 03:39 PM:


Pitt is trying to throw facts together to make an argument.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah, *that'd* be a big mistake, wouldn't it?
<<

yeah pretty much. It is kind of like taking a bunch of phrases and trying to make a speech out of them! Or a couple of Bible verses and making a sermon.

It is kind of weak! Kind of misses logic!

Robert
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 3:44 PM EDT
puddle*in*WV wrote on April 8, 2006 03:41 PM:


U.S. Study Paints Somber Portrait of Iraqi Discord
By ERIC SCHMITT and EDWARD WONG
<<

yeah...kind of like dealing with the old south after the Civil War.

No problem, just maintain order and deal with the difficult people.

Robert
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By trinite on Apr 8, 2006 3:45 PM EDT

Sorry, Robert. You don't get it. Unfortunately, Cindy Sheehan is not an American leader at the present time, nor does she flaunt religion as a way to attract followers. But we do have leaders in the White House who claim to be chosen by God. As you have reminded us often, these chosen leaders can do as they please because they won. Some of us know who they are and where they're leading America, but unfortunately, we continue to have many kinds of blindness, and those who are unfortunate enough to be afflicted with any form just can't face reality. They refuse to change course and continue to follow those leaders straight into the ditch. It's really very hard to admit error or human weakness of any kind. That takes real courage.

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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 3:51 PM EDT
trinite wrote on April 8, 2006 03:45 PM:


Sorry, Robert. You don't get it. Unfortunately, Cindy Sheehan is not an American leader at the present time, nor does she flaunt religion as a way to attract followers. But we do have leaders in the White House who claim to be chosen by God.
<<

Well lets deal in reverse order. "Chosen by God".

The problem is that the far left when they think that they are throwing that "barb" at Bush, dont really understand why a person who believes in God would say such a thing.

I suggest a perusal of the trial of Jesus before Pilate and his (Jesus) discussion of how rulers on Earth gain their authority. Now this is of course all in the context of the religious/secular nature of the trial of Jesus...and its interplay with the politics of the time. But it is fairly coherent today IF you believe, as Bush says he does and I have no real reason to doubt it...in the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I KNOW how its interpreted by the far left, but its about like taking Bush's joke about "I call you my base" and blowing that out of proportion. when Bush says that I wince a bit, but he is not flaunting his religion. It is not a sentiment that I would vocalize, because it is so easy to be misunderstood by non believers, but it is one which Jesus would agree with. After all Bush is simply using Jesus words.

Sheehan is a leader of the far left (as odd as it may seem) and she is leading the far left blindly off a cliff. Its fine with me.

Actually I am the guy on the sidelines watching, both enjoying the show and cheering the movement to the cliff on! See I want McCain to be president.

When you win, you get to govern. Had Howard Dean won, I would have urged him to screw the opposition and do what he said he would do. Winning is well everything.

Robert
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 3:52 PM EDT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


rocket wrote on April 8, 2006 03:51 PM:


trinite wrote on April 8, 2006 03:45 PM:
when Bush says that I wince a bit, but he is not flaunting his religion. It is not a sentiment that I would vocalize,<<

a little clean up..

"that" should be his staements on religion.

Robert
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By puddle*in*WV on Apr 8, 2006 3:58 PM EDT
Gotta go play with my grandbabies, instead of the blog baby. . . .

bbl
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By trinite on Apr 8, 2006 4:07 PM EDT
Since Bush doesn't do much reading and seldom goes to church, he may not be familiar with much that's in the New Testament. To constantly brag about how important your faith is and to use it for political gain in not something that's very Christian, if at all. For example, Matthew:

Whenever you give alms, do not sound a trumpet.

Whenever you pray, do not be like hypocrites. . . go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father in secret. . .

Whenever you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites. . . to show that they are fasting.

And, do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth. . . .

Many of us are offended by the politicization of religion for goals that are anything but religious or humane. It's a dangerous and slippery slope that leads to that ditch so well protrayed by Bruegel.
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 4:11 PM EDT
trinite wrote on April 8, 2006 04:07 PM:


Since Bush doesn't do much reading and seldom goes to church, he may not be familiar with much that's in the New Testament.
<<

Actually he (Bush) seems quite familier with the New Testament...more so then his critics.

No where in the NT does it mention that "nations" should do X, Y, and Z. In all the verses "you" quote the word is "you" not "the nation that you are a part of" or "that you govern".

The Bible, particularly the NT is not a social manifesto for National Behavior. Jesus would not care that the US dropped "the gadget" or "firebombed" Tokyo.

Nations do not go to heaven or hell...people do.

Robert
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 4:12 PM EDT
hopesprings wrote on April 8, 2006 04:10 PM:


Back for a bit for an update - over 3,000 people have responded to the Bush event in N. Carolina where Harry Taylor exercised his First Amendment right. Won't you join us?
<<

He was great. Was he a karl Rove plant?

Robert
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 4:15 PM EDT
trinite wrote on April 8, 2006 04:07 PM:



Whenever you fast, do not look dismal, <<

oh that brings to mind the Cindy Sheehan picture on HER SON's unmarked grave...what is the problem with getting the grave a tombstone?

Robert
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By jaxrook on Apr 8, 2006 4:24 PM EDT
theres a hole in the bucket...
dear robert
dear robert

you cant fill it with slobber
dear robert
the hole
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By trinite on Apr 8, 2006 4:26 PM EDT
Robert,
Nations and churches are nothing more than the people who inhabit them. They are not composed of trees, grass, and cement. We're all responsible in some way for what this nation does, and Bush is more responsible than the rest of us because he gives the orders that lead to all those deaths. Also, I'm really impressed that you can speak for what Jesus would think of the killing of innocent civilians at Hiroshima. I would never claim such a power, but have my own opinion of what Jesus might say about war and peace. It comes from the scriptures and not from church leaders who might well belong in that Bruegel painting. Check out what was said about the peacemakers in The Sermon on the Mount. The New Testament can be considered a very liberal document, even in today's world.
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By trinite on Apr 8, 2006 4:27 PM EDT

Have to run along now. Gee, we're having miserable weather today. Cold rain and a sheet of ice on my deck. Bye. Have fun!

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By seashell on Apr 8, 2006 4:36 PM EDT
Here's an idea for a totally silent TV ad - until the end.

Bush/Cheney/Rummy/Rice/ etc all holding hands together and walking in single file with their eyes closed. Cheney is the leader and they walk into Iraq. The ad ends with the sounds of shock and awe and screaming/dying children. Superimposed on this final scene is the word POWER.

Indeed, the blind lead the blind.

None of these ninnies need money nor fame. It IS power they're after and most likely they feel powerless in the depths of their souls. We can be sure that if they start a nuke war, they will have a safe place to retreat to for a long time.

I used to think that a nuke war was out of the question, becuz we had people in office who at the very least, understood the destruction. Now it appears we have suicide nuclear warmongers in the WH. And even if they die, they can go up in the clouds with Jesus, nekked. (I always wonder what happens if there are no clouds that day) Oh my, talk about the blind leading the blind. Truly, the WH is filled with very dangerous sado/masochists and 30+ % of the public is still going along with it. That's scary. Ånd these people espouse the philosophy of destruction in order to create. That's what Iraq is about, except what's being created is a climate for world disaster.
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More thinking. Perhaps showing famous paintings in ads would be a great idea. Visual impact is stronger than audio. We could also insert famous quotes.
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I started "The Bible Fraud" last night. It's astonishing and the author references every claim he's making. Eventually these people who take the bible literally are going to have their beliefs blown apart - or they'll just die off.
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Monica, the fact that Xtians believe that they are sinful creatures correlates directly with the acceptance of punishment, by god,daddy,Bush, whomever they deem is a superior figure. The concept of equality and goodness escapes them; yet it's what Jesus taught.

"Ye are all gods."
Jesus
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By seashell on Apr 8, 2006 4:45 PM EDT
The following is not meant to be a racial slur, but this OT thinking has led to both the Jewish and Xtian guilt syndrome.

Guilty, sinful people must be punished and you're all sinful and guilty, therefore you must punish both yourselves and others. Punishment is deserved and moral....just ask the OT crazies and the early Popes who fashioned religion as a tool to CONTROL.

It's all about control.

John Bradshaw claims that the first 10 years of marriage is about control.
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By *Hypatia* on Apr 8, 2006 5:17 PM EDT
See I want McCain to be president.

Robert

*******************************************

No sh*t...last I checked the dear Senator from Arizona was slotted to deliver the commencement speech at Liberty University. Sounds like given your sentiments above you'd be better off at Freerepublic or RedState m'dear. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
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By ElaineinRoanokeVA on Apr 8, 2006 5:40 PM EDT
*Hypatia* wrote on April 8, 2006 05:17 PM:

A repeat post about John "Flip Flop" McCain:

The "Straight Talk Express" has crashed into the "Presidential Nomination Express," better known as the "Flip Flop Special." The Republican too many Democrats liked for his supposed independence has been busily sucking up to George Bush and the radical right wing of the Republican Party of late. He must have realized that the Righties will be the ones controlling the Republican Party's nominating process. Here are some of McCain's "flip flops" of late:

Marriage Amendment to the U.S. Constitution:
MSNBC, 2/25/2004: Called a Federal definition of marriage "antithetical in every way to the core philosophy of Republicans," because it "usurps from the states a fundamental authority they have always possessed.” He also praised Massachusetts for taking its own approach to legalizing civil unions, and possibly marriage. That sounds to me like he was absolutely opposed to Federal involvement in the matter.
2006: After accepting Jerry Falwell's invitation to address the 2006 Liberty University graduation ceremony, he told Falwell that he would support a federal constitutional amendment defining marriage as the union of one man and one woman if a federal court were to strike down state constitutional bans on gay marriage. Do I hear the sound of rubber shoes made for summer wear?

Extension of Bush Tax Cuts:
In February McCain voted to continue Bush's dividend and capital gains tax cuts, which he once strongly opposed as being a danger to the budget process and ineffective in improving economic performance. "It's a big flip-flop," one-time McCain hater Grover Norquist told The Washington Times' Donald Lambro, "but I'm happy that he's flopped."

Oops, McCain Really Did NOT Mean Jerry Falwell Was Intolerant:
Since he will headline Jerry's annual political show at Liberty graduation, McCain has "taken back" his 2000 campaign words about Jerry Falwell, whom he then saw along with others of Jerry's ilk as "agents of intolerance." Now, he makes nice-nice to Jerry. "We agreed to disagree on certain issues," McCain said recently on NBC-TV's "Meet the Press" program.

He Liked Roe v Wade Before He Hated It:
McCain made it very clear to many audiences during his 2000 presidential campaign that he opposed overturning Roe v. Wade. In an interview then with the San Francisco Chronicle he said, "In the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade."
BUT.... when asked in a January 2006 interview on "The CBS Early Show" whether he saw the high court banning abortions one day, Mr. McCain said, "I've never agreed with Roe v. Wade, so it wouldn't bother me any."
Flip....pander.....Flop, Flip.....pander.....Flop, Flip.....pander.....Flop.
That's the sound made by the Bush-hugging, I- don't-really-mean-what-I-said, McCain "Flip Flop Special" as it chugs along toward 2008.
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By puddle*in*WV on Apr 8, 2006 5:56 PM EDT
Elaine ~~ Believe McStoopid lost all the indy support he got the last time around. That which made him scary to Bushco. He's gonna try taking over the Rapture crowd. And if he takes our lame troll with him, more to the good.

Unless we do something amazingly dumb like nominating H, he'll just hand the election over to the Dems.
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By ElaineinRoanokeVA on Apr 8, 2006 6:04 PM EDT
puddle*in*WV wrote on April 8, 2006 05:56 PM:

Hope you are right, Puddle. But, don't forget...the American voters actually gave Dumbya more votes last time. Even with the cheating....
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By Flagjohn on Apr 8, 2006 6:11 PM EDT
Once again, from an Arizonan:

McCain is old, sick, feeble-minded, and almost as dangerous as our beloved incumbent.

I'm sure the Rethugs (as now configured) are dumb enough to nominate this clown, but I hope and pray that the American electorate has enough sense to defeat his sorry ass!
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By GeorgeNJ on Apr 8, 2006 6:16 PM EDT

Well, yes. Thank you, Howard, for all you have done. But you haven't done enough. Nor have we. Do not the Republicans still have majorities in the House, in the Senate and in the Executive? And I say that means no progressive Democrat has done enough. We have to beat these evil neo-con Republican miscreants in Washington. Beat! Beat! Beat! the slimey bums. (Cleaned up a bit for national consumption.)

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By Flagjohn on Apr 8, 2006 6:16 PM EDT

"Canoe U" has produced some real duds: McCain and u-no-hoo included.

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By Flagjohn on Apr 8, 2006 6:19 PM EDT
AP headline "Bush Blames Reid for Immigration Meltdown"

You have the White House, both houses of Congress, and have packed the courts, and you still want to blame poor old toothless Mormon Harry for your troubles!

What an A-hole.
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By seashell on Apr 8, 2006 6:35 PM EDT
The CM is not talking about Sy's article nor about what's really going on in Iran.

I'm writing Keith this weekend; we need to inform the public or take to the streets or both in order to stop what could turn into a nuclear war.

He's not nuts, they are insane and surely there is something in the Constitution that could remove them based on mental illness.
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By Thankful2Thankful4Dean on Apr 8, 2006 6:42 PM EDT
evaluation time here

ALL sessions were great

take in the training if it is anywhere near
you

Phil
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By Thankful2Thankful4Dean on Apr 8, 2006 6:45 PM EDT
Holy moly - our heads are so full of information with all sessions to be expanded on tomorrow. Arshad is a great presenter btw. DFA is lucky to have him.

:-)
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By puddle*in*WV on Apr 8, 2006 6:47 PM EDT
u-no-hoo included.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nope. Not u-no-hoo. Just his relatives.
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By Thankful2Thankful4Dean on Apr 8, 2006 7:04 PM EDT
puddle

as always baby is worth the visit
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By MonicaSmith on Apr 8, 2006 7:04 PM EDT
Went to a party for a local opera company today. One fellow there said his Republican neighbors don't want to hear any more about Bush. They just want to be done with it. One neighbor's boy came home without his leg and the dad is just really mad.
Maybe it's time for just tea and sympathy--no lengthy speeches and definitely no recrimation.
Oh, and no time for "I told you so."

Momma's gonna kiss it and make it better.
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By seashell on Apr 8, 2006 7:10 PM EDT
I just spoke with my very repuglican ain't-gonna-vote-for-no-baby-killer neighbor and I asked, "Well, how do you like Mr. Bush now?" And he replied, "He's doing just great. If he wasn't, all our cities would be blowed up by now."

I am screaming inside. It' all about control on their part, and instilling fear in us.

Right now I feel disgusted with the human race. Ånd I'd like to move away from this old ignorant frightened neighbor, who, BTW, almost burned down my house. These old fat white men, in congress, and in my neighbhood, truly make me think there's no hope.

Bah, Humbug. People assume that bush is keeping us safe. While he blows up the world.

And oh yeah, let's blame Reid, who can barely take a stand as it is.

Worst regime ever!
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By seashell on Apr 8, 2006 7:12 PM EDT

Monica, that's interesting. I guess only the repugs who've had a stake in Iraq are changing their tune. My neighbor has no one over there.

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By Thankful2Thankful4Dean on Apr 8, 2006 7:17 PM EDT

We are all so smart now!...Seems the out-of-towners came fully equipped with the latest and greatest information as to how we can continue to elect progressive Democrats. We are very grateful to them all...AND,,,JIM DEAN WAS HERE & spoke with us. We are TRULY in happy times. The IOWA Volunteer

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By Flagjohn on Apr 8, 2006 7:17 PM EDT
Bill Moyers naiils it--as usual (clique):

Excerpts:
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By Thankful2Thankful4Dean on Apr 8, 2006 7:19 PM EDT
lol, 7:04 was Phil...

Alta sez she'll come over and blog in a minute also. Finally there's a few minutes for socializing - plus there's FOOD :-)
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By Thankful2Thankful4Dean on Apr 8, 2006 7:49 PM EDT

See ya later :-)

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By pinsocal on Apr 8, 2006 7:58 PM EDT

this bumper sticker made my day in republican-controlled o.c.-----"we miss you, president reagan."

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By puddle*in*WV on Apr 8, 2006 7:59 PM EDT
Well, I'm charmed: BOTH my grandson (11) and graddaughter(7) are learning to knit.

My, the world has changed. . . .
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By *lindab on Apr 8, 2006 8:27 PM EDT
hey, and how is your day? well mine was filled with warm air, cold air, lots of wind, thunder, the calm, then hot air, then thunder. now it is cold and raining.
we started out getting ready to do 15 sports teams photos. we do a lot of the little bantham kids, like 5 and 6, so cute.
we go t 7 of the teams in, then thunder and well the day folded.
now I have to rescedule, which I hate to do.
but hey, it pays tuition and the bills.
peace to all.
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By *lindab on Apr 8, 2006 8:28 PM EDT
am sending this to you all.
the dixie chicks new song an video.

NOT READY TO MAKE NICE!!!
ARE YOU? H NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ENJOY.
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By *lindab on Apr 8, 2006 8:29 PM EDT
Larry in DE (formerly in OK) wrote on April 8, 2006 03:13 PM:

I voted but you know if they believe what bush does if right then their credibilty is shot , for sure.
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By *lindab on Apr 8, 2006 8:38 PM EDT
Forgive, sounds good
Forget, I’m not sure I could
They say time heals everything
But I’m still waiting

I’m through with doubt
There’s nothing left for me to figure out
I’ve paid a price
And I’ll keep paying

I’m not ready to make nice
I’m not ready to back down
I’m still mad as hell and
I don’t have time to go round and round and round
It’s too late to make it right
I probably wouldn’t if I could
‘Cause I’m mad as hell
Can’t bring myself to do what it is you think I should

I know you said
Can’t you just get over it
It turned my whole world around
And I kind of like it

I made my bed and I sleep like a baby
With no regrets and I don’t mind sayin’
It’s a sad sad story when a mother will teach her
Daughter that she ought to hate a perfect stranger
And how in the world can the words that I said
Send somebody so over the edge
That they’d write me a letter
Sayin’ that I better shut up and sing
Or my life will be over

I’m not ready to make nice
I’m not ready to back down
I’m still mad as hell and
I don’t have time to go round and round and round
It’s too late to make it right
I probably wouldn’t if I could
‘Cause I’m mad as hell
Can’t bring myself to do what it is you think I should

I’m not ready to make nice
I’m not ready to back down
I’m still mad as hell and
I don’t have time to go round and round and round
It’s too late to make it right
I probably wouldn’t if I could
‘Cause I’m mad as hell
Can’t bring myself to do what it is you think I should

Forgive, sounds good
Forget, I’m not sure I could
They say time heals everything
But I’m still waiting
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 8:38 PM EDT
pinsocal wrote on April 8, 2006 07:58 PM:


this bumper sticker made my day in republican-controlled o.c.-----"we miss you, president reagan
<<

yes.

Robert
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By Thankful2Thankful4Dean on Apr 8, 2006 8:47 PM EDT
puddle*in*WV wrote on April 8, 2006 07:59 PM:

very cool. Hey, are you teaching them that little-extra-twist method of yours? LOL :-D
~ ~ ~

Phil - it was GRRRRRRRRRRRRREAT to see you today.
{{{{{hugs}}}}}
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By puddle*in*WV on Apr 8, 2006 8:57 PM EDT

Thankful, I'm not teaching them, lol! They have their own knitting teacher. . . .

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By on Apr 8, 2006 8:58 PM EDT

i just gave the Chicks' new song a listen...they just moved up several notches on my list.

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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 9:00 PM EDT
trinite wrote on April 8, 2006 04:26 PM:


Robert,
Nations and churches are nothing more than the people who inhabit them. They are not composed of trees, grass, and cement. <<

correct. past that obvious statement your observation is meaningless in terms of spiritual salvation.

The basic foundation (the true foundation if one will) of New Testament Christianity is "faith" which turns into works. While there are some basics that are in play (like belief in the virgin birth etc) the reality is that "faith" is actually I believe more important in the broad text then what that faith is and that the faith manifest works on an individual level.

The story of the widow and her contribution are in the text precisly to illustrate that point. Her faith drove her to give all that "she" as an individual could afford (and probably more)...which was a greater gift then those who were giving more in their comfort zone...or I would argue who are spending other people's money for their charity.

"you" (in the generic sense) can attend church, and argue all you want that the church/congregation or The REpublic for that matter should do X or Y or Z with the aggregate money that it collects in tithing or taxes...and that wont get you one darn thing in terms of salvation. It only matters what "you" do with your money. And the last time I checked taxes were not like contributions...voluntary.

You (again in the generic sense) can argue all day long that it makes The Republic a better place that lives up to the Constitution if it does X, Y or Z but that will not stop one from going to hell, if one is not participating on an individual basis IN ONES CHURCH in terms of giving. The reverse is accurate as well. One can not believe in the welfare state and yet have faith that gives to the Lords work and helps as individuals the poor, and the chances are quite high, all things considered that one will go to heaven.

This is particularly accurate when one is dealing with national policy. Jesus and his apostles were quite clear in The New Testament that the matters of spirituality were not involved with the spirit of state hood.

Paul and the other apostles passed on women having a significant role in the church, condemning slavery, or the death penalty, or advocating a welfare state. Now "you" (in a specific sense) may embrace all or part of those, and I might even agree with some of them. But dont say "wow that makes us a Christian nation".

That is no better then Fallwell. All it is doing is substituting your view of religion for what his is.

As a nation we are responsible in individual and aggregate for the choices as a nation we make. You may be blown up by the killing in iraq. Thats fine. I suspect that there is almost nothing you would either deal with killing for, or do it yourself, or advocate the nation do.

There are somethings I would oppose the nation as a group killing for, and Iraq isnt one of them. Our intent, even with a flawed setup is to do "good things" and we are accomplishing them. Yes there is some "breakage" but it is certianly no more then most wars and its not really all that much worse then had/was/would happen had Saddam been left in power.

We as a nation are responsible for what we do, and other nations are responsible for what they do or their leader is. Saddam a long time ago forfieted any legitimate claim to be the leader of his country. So have a lot of others, but one way or the other (I would have done it the other way) taking him down is in the best interest of The Republic as long as we leave stability in his place.

Besides I was oppossed to invading Iraq, particularly the way it was done. But we as a nation did it, and just because we leave the killing wont stop (I know the belief that it will is the fantasy of the left). We broke it we get to fix it.

Bush as a person will have to deal in the judgment with what he put together and lead, I dont know how God will deal with what he did, because I dont know Bush's inner soul. A guess at this point in history is that Bush really honestly believed he was doing the right thing. If so, thats good enough.

As for history. Who knows what will be written. A hint...history is written by the victors.

Most of the sentiments you and others express on Iraq were said over and over again in the Plains war, The Spanish American war, to name two...and today no one cares. We own the western US after having removed the "indians", and Puerto Rico is a great commonwealth.

History cleans things up.

Robert
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 9:01 PM EDT
*lindab wrote on April 8, 2006 08:38 PM:
<<

the Go Go's were much better.

Robert
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By Thankful2Thankful4Dean on Apr 8, 2006 9:02 PM EDT
puddle*in*WV wrote on April 8, 2006 08:57 PM:

LOL - ok, just checking :-) It's wonderful they're both learning. I'm glad to have taken it back up, very therapeutic, and I really enjoy creating...
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By mainefem on Apr 8, 2006 9:07 PM EDT
We expect to see a full FickR album of pics, Thankful,Phil, & other peeps in action....

Glad you've had fun!
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By mainefem on Apr 8, 2006 9:12 PM EDT
It's spring in Maine...you can discern by mud and roadkill.

Does roadkill "go to hell," too? (They're dished off to the local landfill in these parts).

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By Thankful2Thankful4Dean on Apr 8, 2006 9:15 PM EDT
mainefem wrote on April 8, 2006 09:07 PM:

uh oh.

I didn't bring a camera. There were others though, so I'll take the usb cord and see if I can grab a shot or two from someone - a lady took a pic of Phil blogging at the end of the day. Yes, it's fun, but mostly it's work,work, work! Listen, write, calculate, think. (Another uh oh - the sign over my monitor at home says 'Caution, Blond Thinking'.)
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By seashell on Apr 8, 2006 9:16 PM EDT
Scroll the troll drivel please.

"Ye are all gods."
Jesus

"In war, all participants lose."
seashell

"History is an enemy of the truth."
seashell

LOL
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By mainefem on Apr 8, 2006 9:22 PM EDT
I'm no fan of C/W music (don't own any); however I do respect the Dixie Chicks in a huge way for utililizing their "voice" of dissent (despite death threats, being forced off redneck Clear Channel radio stations), and other assorted bile from the right-wing Rethugs nutjobs.

They aren't terribly twangy, and their lyrics are at least somewhat empowering--good song.

Way to be defiant, and to simultaneously toss out a global rasberry on their portal/'space'.

More power to 'em...hope they sell sh^tloads of CDs (and it's a very savvy marketing move to post the entire song on their portal as a viral freebie).

Bet their server is nutso of late!

Just cajolin' you, Thankful--I imagine it's been a hectic weekend for you all.

Drive safely, Ms. Roadpop (not related to roadkill)!
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By Thankful2Thankful4Dean on Apr 8, 2006 9:24 PM EDT
rocket wrote on April 8, 2006 09:00 PM:
[...]
...if one is not participating on an individual basis IN ONES CHURCH in terms of giving. The reverse is accurate as well. One can not believe in the welfare state and yet have faith that gives to the Lords work and helps as individuals the poor, and the chances are quite high, all things considered that one will go to heaven.

>>>>It's difficult to take on the religious aspects of this since our beliefs are SO different, but I will say I believe one can give
outside a church structure and be equally 'admissible' to heaven.


[...]
A guess at this point in history is that Bush really honestly believed he was doing the right thing.

>>>>>You're smarter than that IMO and i'm bowled over by your saying it.
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By Thankful2Thankful4Dean on Apr 8, 2006 9:25 PM EDT
Ms. Roadpop

ROFLMEO you slay me :-))))))))))))))))
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By Posted on Apr 8, 2006 9:29 PM EDT
wrote on April 8, 2006 08:58 PM:

good tune
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By DocRoss on Apr 8, 2006 9:30 PM EDT
The Blind Leading the Blind painting….
Reminds me of the Story of the Great Ram … who had in his youth defended the sheep against the wolves and forever more – they followed him WITHOUT question. A million strong, they followed him, until one day the old Ram tripped and fell over a cliff…but the poor unquestioning sheep followed him over --- and continue to this day.

Joe Lieberman, Democrat – False Flag!

Poor John McCain. There was once a great man who stood for good things, which included being AGAINST most everything George W. Bush was for… I would have voted for him. Has he decided to ‘sell out’ thinking it would win him power and glory? This is fool hardy because, there will be no GLORY running as a Bush clone. Or could it be that it’s all a McCain trick..to get into power and THEN change things back for the good of the American people. By the way he looks recently, I’d say this non-smiling man who continues to talk of a good war – has sold his soul. A pitty.

The story of Isaac and the ‘sacrifice’. That had to have been written by the ‘shaking hand of man’… right after he was possibly told to sacrifice his own son for the ‘clan’ or whatever. Coming back to say ‘God had told him not to go ahead’. My GOD is too nice a guy to put some poor human father through this. I believe anything written that shows God as wrathful and revengeful, was written by men, as a threat to their followers. Like with Constantine…..ruling through the church, he needed FEAR. Took the one great passage out of the probably REAL words…. And Jesus said “ and when I return I will save ALL”. Makes you wonder if ‘perfection’ can even create something ‘IM-perfect’. Maybe our definition of 'perfect' isn't perfect.

"Woe to you Pharisees who change my words and frighten my people away from me"
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By mainefem on Apr 8, 2006 9:32 PM EDT
We call people here who are on the go either a "Roadpop," or a "Ridge-runner" (careening along ME's hills and curvy pothole-laden secondary roads--I don't think you qualify for that one, Thankful).

My vehicle would never make the jaunts....

Glad you're out and about--come up to ME for the June 2nd & 3rd Dem. convention in Augusta! Feingold is keynote.
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By Thankful2Thankful4Dean on Apr 8, 2006 9:37 PM EDT

I'd love to mainefem, but June 3 is graduation day for kid3. Yeah, ridge-runner I'm not :-)

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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 9:46 PM EDT
Thankful2Thankful4Dean wrote on April 8, 2006 09:24 PM:


>>>>It's difficult to take on the religious aspects of this since our beliefs are SO different, but I will say I believe one can give
outside a church structure and be equally 'admissible' to heaven.<<

Hello: My post was of necessity fairly "broad band" and some massive "holes" were there. I believe that one can give "outside the Church structure" and do so as a matter of ones faith in the Lord On High and fullfil the work of faith. BUT one has to give to support directly the Lords work in some form or fashion. I do not believe that say giving to "Charity X" in place of supporting a congregation or some specific work of ones spiritual faith fullfils that requirement.



"[...]
A guess at this point in history is that Bush really honestly believed he was doing the right thing.

>>>>>You're smarter than that IMO and i'm bowled over by your saying it."

I've watched George Bush the current a great deal, at least back to when his Dad was POTUS. I believe I have as much a handle, as any non family/friend would have on WHAT Bush really believes in. I think I can tell when he is walking through the political motions (abortion for instance)...and when he is engaged in doing things HE really believes in.

Bush's view of foreign policy and his role as CinC changed after 9/11.

I dont necessarily agree with it, but he honestly holds the views he holds.

Few of us can understand the responsibility that is on the shoulders of The President in dealing with outside threats. In my role I probably have an inkling of it, but it took being assigned to my additional duty to understand that I really didnt have an inkling of what my bosses responsibility was. I really dont think that anyone who has not been in the seat, can really grasp the enormity of what he goes through as POTUS.

One reason I care little for Sheehan, is that she has lied about what Bush said to her. I have friends who have lost relatives in Iraq and they tell me that when he calls or talks to them, one can see the pain in his looks and in his voice and the sympathy in his touch. I know people who he has secretly visited at Bethesda or Walter Reed, people who have lost a lot, and they say quite openly that they feel he understands what is happening, and the responsibility of it.

I thought the same about Clinton when the far right said just horrible things about how he was when folks were killed in Battle.

Honorable people can differ and still stay honorable...as long as they recognize that people differ (and the fact that this administration in some things does not buy that is something I abhor).

Bush believes, in my humble opinion that he committed the nation to the correct course in Iraq. I think he as any President would understands the cost, and feels it.


And if I die in the process, I will go to heaven believing that it was worth my life....and if the younger people in the family go the same route...I would think the same thing. I believed it when Slugger went first.

That doesnt mean I cannot oppose him politically, (as some on this blog are quick to show)...but my sense is that he believes that what he is doing in Iraq will make The Republic stronger.

Robert
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 9:48 PM EDT
DocRoss wrote on April 8, 2006 09:30 PM:


"Woe to you Pharisees who change my words and frighten my people away from me"
<<

I guess this was to me.

You can believe whatever you want. But I would suggest before you start deciding what is and is not inspired that you read your own quote!

Robert
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By cChalfonte on Apr 8, 2006 9:49 PM EDT

How is it one can use 804 words and say absolutely nothing that is coherent?

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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 9:52 PM EDT
rocket wrote on April 8, 2006 09:46 PM:


Thankful2Thankful4Dean wrote on April 8, 2006 09:24 PM:


t's difficult to take on the religious aspects of this since our beliefs are SO different, but I will say I believe one can give
outside a church structure and be equally 'admissible' to heaven.

<
My response on religion was necessarily "broad band" and had of course some holes. However I agree with you in the broad brush that one can give outside a church structure and fullfil the requirement of faith and works.

BUT I would suggest that the gifts at somepoint must be directed toward the Lords work as you see it, not just good works.

If one (for instance) gives to "a battered spouse shelter"...I dont think that this is a manefestation of faith and works in terms of pushing forward the Lords work as one believes it.

Robert
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 9:53 PM EDT
cChalfonte wrote on April 8, 2006 09:49 PM:


How is it one can use 804 words and say absolutely nothing that is coherent?
<<

Is that how long River Pitt is? I wondered that myself how he could babble on and say well nothing.

Robert
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By seashell on Apr 8, 2006 9:53 PM EDT
I also admired McCain and don't understand what has hardened his heart. It's as tho he's never suffered and we know that's not true. He seems to suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, as do the shrub's followers.

If we look at our history objectively and critically, it's obvious that power-brokers and war-mongers have been ruling since the pilgrims landed.

Was that Teddy R that used to shoot buffalo from a moving train? What a guy! And how 'bout those scrupulous railroad barons? What gentle and compassionate souls!

We are certainly a blood-thirsty and violent nation.

And now we have people who are mentally ill with their fingers on the button - not just one sicky, but several.

I didn't do well in turning my repug neighbor into a thinking human.

We need to find a way to turn the fear of death into the fear of Bush and his ilk. Or at least, equating the two.
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By puddle*in*WV on Apr 8, 2006 9:53 PM EDT

Yikes! Donna's gonna put insides in her living room toilet! AND hook it up. There goes its Artistic value, right there. . . .

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By cChalfonte on Apr 8, 2006 9:54 PM EDT
The great news is that *I don't care about humanity* is a very narrowly held view and is absolutely not the viewpoint of our greatest presidents. Nor is it the viewpoint of really decent people.

*I'm gwine ta heaven cuz I gots faith*......

I can only say....words of a fool.
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By Joan*in*Florida on Apr 8, 2006 9:55 PM EDT
Excellent blog Meredith. Gotta say, it's what we in our home have always been saying. The trip to Iraq was primarily to make Haliburton and others rich beyond belief.

Few people bothered to question why we bombed the cr*ap out of Bagdad for no apparent reason. The reason was always there, and always transparent for anyone who cared to look. The fight was long over but the bombing and shooting and destroying continued on.

Why it is taking so long for sleepy Americans to, duh, wake up and see where they are now? If only Dean had been allowed to run in 2004 . . .
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By sunlight* on Apr 8, 2006 10:02 PM EDT
Clinton the same as Bush?

"Bush believes, in my humble opinion that he committed the nation to the correct course in Iraq."

That's the trouble with believes.

Believes are not based on facts.
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By Thankful2Thankful4Dean on Apr 8, 2006 10:03 PM EDT
rocket wrote on April 8, 2006 09:46 PM:

thanks - respect your opinion on this. And even though mine remains different, I would like to think he has moments of sincerity.
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By tc on Apr 8, 2006 10:12 PM EDT
Don't know if this has been on the blog yet. Not very cheery.

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The administration of President George W. Bush is planning a massive bombing campaign against Iran, including use of bunker-buster nuclear bombs to destroy a key Iranian suspected nuclear weapons facility, The New Yorker magazine has reported in its April 17 issue.

The article by investigative journalist Seymour Hersh said that Bush and others in the White House have come to view Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as a potential Adolf Hitler.

"That's the name they're using," the report quoted a former senior intelligence official as saying.

A senior unnamed Pentagon adviser is quoted in the article as saying that "this White House believes that the only way to solve the problem is to change the power structure in Iran, and that means war."

The former intelligence officials depicts planning as "enormous," "hectic" and "operational," Hersh writes.

One former defense official said the military planning was premised on a belief that "a sustained bombing campaign in Iran will humiliate the religious leadership and lead the public to rise up and overthrow the government," The New Yorker pointed out.
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By Thankful2Thankful4Dean on Apr 8, 2006 10:17 PM EDT
rocket wrote on April 8, 2006 09:52 PM:

lol, 'course I didn't copy the whole post, but I never intend an excerpt to skew the context...

BUT I would suggest that the gifts at somepoint must be directed toward the Lords work as you see it, not just good works.

>>>herein lies some of the problem... if one doesn't believe in the Lord but is spiritual in a different sense, how are good works not just as valuable? or redeeming? my feeling on this is that good works are good works and one's religious beliefs aren't necessarily a factor.
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By sunlight* on Apr 8, 2006 10:20 PM EDT
rocket wrote on April 8, 2006 09:52 PM
sunlight* wrote on April 8, 2006 10:02 PM

Sorry,
Robby I didn't timestamp and reference your post.

I know it bothers you. I apologize~
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 10:21 PM EDT
Thankful2Thankful4Dean wrote on April 8, 2006 10:17 PM:



>>>herein lies some of the problem... if one doesn't believe in the Lord but is spiritual in a different sense, how are good works not just as valuable? or redeeming? my feeling on this is that good works are good works and one's religious beliefs aren't necessarily a factor.

***

Hello:

My feeling is that they are valuable, but they probably are not what gets one to heaven. I am a minority in my brotherhood as I believe that a lot more people are going to heaven then most think...and I dont think that everyone in heaven will be in "The Church of Christ"...and I am pretty sure some members of the CoC are not going to heaven.

But there is to my belief a theory that one has to be more then just "spiritual".

But thats just my opinion.

(As Sunday dawns!)

Robert
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By Thankful2Thankful4Dean on Apr 8, 2006 10:21 PM EDT
puddle*in*WV wrote on April 8, 2006 09:53 PM:

LOL. geez, Donna. It could be a great planter in the corner if you decide not to pull it up to the coffee table. And guess I'll go before stopping by next time. ROFL. Are all those beautiful tiles up yet?
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 10:23 PM EDT
sunlight* wrote on April 8, 2006 10:02 PM:


Clinton the same as Bush?

"Bush believes, in my humble opinion that he committed the nation to the correct course in Iraq."

That's the trouble with believes.

Believes are not based on facts.
<<

"Beliefs" are not based on facts? Hmmm

OK so how do you classify the "belief" that the fighting will end in Iraq if the US leaves?

Robert
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 10:25 PM EDT
Thankful2Thankful4Dean wrote on April 8, 2006 10:03 PM:


rocket wrote on April 8, 2006 09:46 PM:

thanks - respect your opinion on this. And even though mine remains different, I would like to think he has moments of sincerity.
<<

All People/presidents have moments of insincerity..I still recall Clinton laughing walking up to the SecCommerce's funeral and then immediatly start tearing!

See how it works out. I think Bush believes he is doing the correct thing. I also believe that some things have surprised him about his effort...but it wont matter....in the end we are going to win...and the nation will be stronger.

Robert
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 10:27 PM EDT
tc wrote on April 8, 2006 10:12 PM:


Don't know if this has been on the blog yet. Not very cheery.

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The administration of President George W. Bush is planning a massive bombing campaign against Iran, including use of bunker-buster nuclear bombs to destroy a key Iranian suspected nuclear weapons facility, The New Yorker magazine has reported in its April 17 issue.
<<

what tells me that is babble...is that we are if one reads the open press busily testing very high grade conventional bunker busters in the Nevada desert.

It is all a matter of "placticity".

Robert
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 10:29 PM EDT
Joan*in*Florida wrote on April 8, 2006 09:55 PM:


If only Dean had been allowed to run in 2004 . . .
<<

I was in Iowa...he placed third.

Robert
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By rocket on Apr 8, 2006 10:30 PM EDT
cChalfonte wrote on April 8, 2006 09:54 PM:



*I'm gwine ta heaven cuz I gots faith*......<<

whoever said that has not read the New Testament...

Robert
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By tc on Apr 8, 2006 10:33 PM EDT
Just read upthread. Guess nuking Iran is old news. What are we to do?

On another note, here's a right wing take on McCain's wishy-washiness and obvious pandering:

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=13772
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By sunlight* on Apr 8, 2006 10:38 PM EDT
“"Beliefs" are not based on facts? Hmmm”
“OK so how do you classify the "belief" that the fighting will end in Iraq if the US leaves?”

I don’t classify believes.
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By Thankful2Thankful4Dean on Apr 8, 2006 10:43 PM EDT

new thread :-)

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By sunlight* on Apr 8, 2006 10:50 PM EDT
“OK so how do you classify the "belief" that the fighting will end in Iraq if the US leaves?”

Another believe?

Obviously, the leaving of the US will not end the fighting.
One more argument for leaving.
Why be there and fight?

And that seems to be the heart of things

What are we fighting for? Oil? Democracy? A noble cause?
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By Charles*in*Montana on Apr 8, 2006 11:43 PM EDT
CentCom
4/7/2006
MND-B SERVICE MEMBER DIES
06-04-07CJ
4/7/2006
TASK FORCE BAND OF BROTHERS SOLDIER KILLED
06-04-07CJ
4/7/2006
MARINE KILLED IN AL ANBAR PROVINCE
06-04-07CJ
4/7/2006
MARINE KILLED NEAR AL QAIM
06-04-07CJ
4/3/2006
FIVE MARINES KILLED IN VEHICLE MISHAP
06-04-04C
4/2/2006
TASK FORCE BAND OF BROTHERS' SOLDIER KILLED
06-04-02CJ
4/2/2006
TWO MND-B SOLDIERS KILLED IN CENTRAL BAGHDAD
06-04-02CJ
4/2/2006
TWO MND-B PILOTS PRESUMED DEAD
06-04-02CJ
4/2/2006
MND-B PILOTS KILLED
06-04-02CJ
4/1/2006
MARINE KILLED IN AL ANBAR PROVINCE
06-04-02CJ


How can anyone think things are getting better?

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