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The Big Three Bailout
The Detroit Big Three are back in Washington, this time ditching the private jets, for hybrid cars. The have also incresed their bailout to $34 billon. On The Politico today:
In a series of grim reports, General Motors Corp. and privately-held Chrysler LLC told lawmakers they will be in serious peril by the end of this month and certainly the first quarter of 2009. Given GM’s size, its failure could pull down Ford Motor Co. despite its better cash position.
Last time, Congress told them to come back with better plans. They have come up with plans, but they have also increased the amount to $34 billion. This time they are promising more efficient cars and slimming down their lines. The problem is they might cut jobs.
A brighter landscape is promised together with a commitment to move toward the production of energy efficient, hybrid electrical cars. But the immediate future is bleak for the 3 million workers impacted, and Michigan Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.) said both the White House and President-elect Barack Obama must “weigh in heavily” to address the crisis.
Do the big three deserve a bailout? What do you think?
Dave Santucci
Operations Manager
This post makes no sense. Are you suggesting that since there is no longer leaded gasoline, there is no use for catalytic converters? We had to stop using leaded gas so we could start using catcons to clean up car exhaust.
I have never heard anyone suggest we get rid of catcons. They work!
But the people who worked for them for 50 years and their widows deserve their pensions and healthcare insurance before any CEO should get a bonus. My Dad 's UAW local had to close their doors a few years ago. That was a very sad day indeed. Detroit had the answers to today's problems in the 1970s but they refused to change. All that wonderful human knowledge and innovation has been locked up their basement file cabinets collecting dust for years just to keep the war machine going. It's shameful.
The BIG Three are going to get the American Taxpayer's money but they sure don't 'deserve' it. I just hope congress gets it right this time. This bailout had better come with a lot of conditions.
I have a totally different take on this situation. If someone was a gainfully employed union auto worker for 50 years, then they had 50 really good years. They had health benefits better than just about anyone else and they earned wages that should have allowed them to put away some good savings.
Then there is another tier of worker such as myself--college educated, laid off an average of once every 4 years for the past 20 years. Each layoff was a huge set back in which I had to dip into savings to survive, sell off some possessions to pay the bills and eventually take a job that didn't pay as well as the previous one. Though fully vested in two company's pension plans, I lost those and have never received a buyout package or severence pay. And yet, I survived having the rug pulled out from beneath my feet. I currently have NO savings and live paycheck to paycheck.
And yet all my concern goes to those less fortunate than me. I think about people like my sister who is older than me and has never had health insurance. She too has been laid off many times and now hasn't worked for 2 years. Yet she has a great family support system.
And then there are those who are not well educated, work for minimum wage, have no health benefits, will never advance to the point where they can put money away for retirement. They live an unhealthy existance because of not having insurance.
So, when you talk about someone living the good live for 50 years and how horrible it would be to lose that, I think about the people who have never had a good life at all and never got to depend on anything from a job.
My mother came to America from Germany in the mid 1950s having lost everything--possessions, house and family during WWII. It was difficult for her to say the least and yet she has survived. Then in 1972, my mother lost everything again during the hurricane Agnes flood...and she's still going strong. As long as you don't lose your life, you haven't lost anything that important.
- Germany provides all of it's citizens with medical insurance but they call it sick insurance (which is the truth about it's purpose). They provide citizens with good educations and pensions too.
By Susan Rowe on Dec 6, 2008 7:28 PM ESTAnd they also tax their citizens to pay for their state approved religions.
There are a lot of College grads who belong to a union. If you work in America you can join a union. There are even members of congress who belong to a union. All workers can get work contacts with their employers. CEOs always have work contracts.
To keep them out of Chapter 11 where they will shed their "legacy costs" of pensions and health care further weakening organized labor all across America. buy their stock to capitalize them and make them the vanguard of a green change
But no one should be getting a blank check and by blank check I mean a check with no strings attached.
Both the car companies and the unions have to admit their roles in the literal collapse of the US auto industry. If I'm not mistaken, the VW Bug started coming ashore in 1959 followed by some Toyotas, Datsuns and Hondas in the mid to late 60s. The Big 3 (now the weak 3) could have adapted and could have begun competing with them and making good small cars. Instead Americans were given some very feeble and dangerous cars instead--exploding Pintos and weird Corvairs.
GM, in particular, has had a really hard time simply giving the public decent small cars. When they introduced cars such as the Chevette or the Citation, all their ads bragged about how these small cars drove like big cars. Small cars had a purpose, even back then, but the Detroit 3 didn't want to admit it.
Legacy costs are a union issue. There seems to have been no eye on the future and whether companies could maintain the payments for retirees far into the future and still survive.
The US auto industry needs to survive, but I believe it needs to operate under very strict guidelines that come with the bail out money.
I'm also not opposed to going the route of Chapter 11. If the legacy benefits are lost...that's tough, but that's also a sign of the times. Its funny to me that the big unions and the auto/airline industry get all the attention and their employees/former employees get alot of pity. Well, I've lost pension benefits and much more and I just write it off like death and taxes. It happens.
You're not a 70+ year old widow who lives on her hubby's meager pension. There is nothing funny about putting elderly people out on the street. It's just cruel and heartless. 50 years is a long time to be paying into pension plan. That is a lot of sack lunches that were made by a homemaker's loving hands. That pension is money that they've both earned, invested and saved. Try telling the American people that their social security checks aren't coming anymore because the US Treasury is in Chapter 11.
My hubby and I only purchase GM vechicles. We buy American, period. We also ask for a GM product when we rent a car too. And my brother has a Corvair. It's a Classic. Our Hoosier Dad was an expert mechanic for the Corvair. He knew that car inside and out.
I only buy Toyota or Mazda or Honda. Why? My experience with American cars. First car I ever drove was a 1977 Plymouth Volare--it stalled upon making every sharp right turn. My sister was eventually seriously injured during an accident in that car.
Then there was my college car--1981 Chevy Citation...most recalled car in history (at the time). Engine replaced 2 times, transmission replaced 3 times, steering rack replaced when the car was one month old--only had the car for 2.5 years because it eventually caught on fire.
Sorry, but I refuse to waste my money and reward companies that simply don't even bother trying to make a safe or good product.
And you're right I am not 70. I will never know what it is like to retire with a pension and then have it taken away from me because I've already lost mine. I will get nothing. The focus on the big 3 and the plight of their employees is an insult to every other America worker who has been through something similar and yet no one even knows or cares about them.
Go to your Credit Union for a loan before you look for a car. Don't let the dealership make that deal for you.
LOL...I certainly don't need car buying advice. Around here, people come to me for advice and I'm probably about as well known as a person can be at the local dealerships because I have been helping friends and family shop for cars for about 20 years.
Last time I shopped for a car, it took 4 months and I test drove 11 different cars before consulting Consumer Reports, Car&Driver, etc. When new models come up, I show up at dealerships for test drives...which drives them insane because they know I'm not buying.
I'm also proud to say that dfaROCHESTER has an extremely high percentage of members who drive Toyota Priuses or Honda hybrids or Ford hybrids. My Scion averages 38 mpg. We seem to be an extremely environmentally aware group.
I never purchased the Volare or the Citation. The Volare was my parent's car at the time I got my driving permit. The Citation was the car my father bought for my sister and I when we were in college.
I learned a lesson from those purchases made by my father. I simply didn't buy American. In my opinion, the American companies didn't deserve my hard earned money. My first car purchase was a Toyota Corolla. I owned it for 11.5 years and then gave it to my sister. My second car was a Mazda Protege. I had that for 10.5 years. Now I drive my Scion xB breadbox and it is the perfect car for someone who is 6'5" and craves a roomy, extremely efficient car.
And don't kid yourself about buying American...Pontiac G8--made in Australia. Saturns are now designed in Europe and some are built their as well. The engine in the Chevy Equinox is made in China. There are countless GM cars made in Mexico and Canada.
Personally, the last time I car shopped, I did like a few Fords. Of course Ford's best products these days are based on Mazdas or are European designs. I just don't know when America just gave up on designing cars. Ford totally walked away from their number one selling Taurus for some odd reason to concentrate on SUVs.
pretty ignorant
what is ignorant is thinking that media hype puts a spotlight on the auto industry workers and what they are losing and never realizing that so many other people have and will suffer problems much, much worse then that.
I listened for years as my uncles, who all worked for the big 3 bitch and complain every time their medical benefits changed, while I didn't even have health insurance until I was 35. Get real, people.
- You can always join a union. They do wonderful things for working people. (Like saving your pension)
By Susan Rowe on Dec 5, 2008 10:53 AM ESTAmercia needs to provide Heathcare Insurance to every American regardless if they have a job or not. Universal single-payer is the best. Check out HR 676 (Conyers). Even college students have to prove they have heathcare Insurance before they can get in college these days.
If you need a good labor attorney I know a few of them too. My hubby practiced labor law for years before he went in to public service.
- Your uncles needed to attend a few of their local's meetings and find out who they elected to represent them during contract negotiations. That could have been the problem.
By Susan Rowe on Dec 5, 2008 11:06 AM EST
Why anyone would want more of our manufacturing industry to go down the tubes in America is beyond comprehension.
for what you should be providing for yourself?
What Susan said about the cars you bought was true. I bought Bonnevilles, Firebirds, Impalas, 2 Cadillacs and my AMC Javalin was a great car. Bought that when I was 17 with my own money and credit.
Volare, oh man. Not every company makes everything "good" but not all "bad" either. Caveat emptor and all that.
and now they are laying off thousands. what's up with that??
yes , but call it a loan, not a bailout. the media whores use the words they want.
you want another business gone in this country.
get rid of those three duds who run the big 3 and go for hybrid/electric or whatever cares with good mileage
harry reid says he doesn't think we have the money? wtf? you had the money for the criminals
If we had UHC then there are no discussions of health insurance legacy costs. Everyone gets covered. Have the government cover the pensions costs.
Look at the reorg plans. They need to address future clean technologies, too many model and dealerships and a bizarre supply system.
If the plans are a snow job then the big three march to chapter 11.
Regardless of auto comes up with their own plan or a bankruptcy judge does, there will be job losses as the industries are pared down of conflicting models and dealers. Some jobs losses will be made up of green cars, but the parts and support system will be hit hard.
Whoever said anyone can join a union has not tried to organize one lately.
Some companies threaten to close up and move if moved...or terminate profit-sharing plans... or fire those involved.
I am a lover of dodge 4WD Cummins diesels. Been driving them forever it seems. We used to have a domestic auto of some sort but they all were crap so we have a honda sedan - which we are selling because we can't drive it in the winter. We will probaly buy a 4WD Tahoe or something like that. I like diesels. My PU gets over 20 MPG constantly.
With all the snow we get, we need something that can go where plows never venture.
You can join any union even if your employer doesn't have a contract with one. There was no mention of about organizing one just joining.
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