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Failed Conservative Values: Barbara, Carole, Nina on Dogmatism
Linked to groups: What are Progressive Values? Study Group
I'm starting a new series of articles on how Conservative Values have Failed. It's obvious that conservative ideas and policies have failed, but the failures go even deeper to the very heart and essence of the conservative movement, to their Failed Conservative Values. In this series, we will pull back the mask of Conservative Family Values, Conservative Traditional Values, individual freedom, individual responsibility, individual liberty, Compassionate Conservativism, etc. to reveal the underlying Failed Conservative Values of fear, authoritarianism, secrecy, dogmatism, greed, indifference, self-righteousness, arrogance, hypocrisy, etc.
I ask for your assistance to systematically build the arguments and tell the stories that reveal how Conservative Values have Failed. Join in our effort to create a documentary and book on the subject by contributing articles, posts, chapters for the book and video clips. Check our website for more information and a growing outline of tasks that need to be done on this project. http://progressivespirit.com/Projects/FailedConservativeValues
The first failed conservative value we will look at is dogmatism. I interviewed Barbara, Carole and Nina at a conference of Democratic Clubs in Los Angeles. When I asked them to contrast conservative and progressive values, they all talked about conservative dogmatism and rigidity. Conservative dogmatism starts with the beliefs first and fit the facts to support them. The war and occupation of Iraq is a case in point. If the facts don't fit the dogma, they are ignored.
Failed Conservative Values: Barbara Levin on Dogmatism
My own feeling and my own prejudice is that people on the right are believers rather than thinkers. And they start with the belief, and they fix the facts around their beliefs. That’s how we got into Iraq, under the memo that says, as you know, we’re fixing the facts around the policy that’s already established.
You start with a belief, then you fix the facts to go with your belief. And they do that with gay people, they decide that it’s a chosen lifestyle, because they start with a premise that it’s wrong, and if it’s wrong, it can’t be something you’re born with – it has to be chosen. That is a classic example of fixing the facts around the policy.
And I think they do that with a number of things. I think they listen to code words, and then don’t think through what these things actually mean. So family values – what does that mean? To most people on the right, I think it means anti-gay, it used to be anti-black, anti-woman, anti-change. Because they’re used to the universe as they believe it was created. And they think the universe was created as the way they see it existing. And therefore, any change is against the natural order of things. Because the natural order of things is what’s already there – what they’re used to.
Progressive, as the name implies, is always pushing for change, which conservatives, who are anti-change, hate. They are uncomfortable with it. And progressives look for progress – as the name implies. Progress means change of a specific kind, not just any old change, but change to improve people’s lives. Change for betterment, change for economic justice. Change for legal justice, for social justice. Change that will improve conditions for the most number of people.
That’s what progressive values are all about, as the name implies. And conservative values are about, “I’m used to this. Change is threatening. I don’t want change.” I mean, the right likes to have their version morality as very static, “God wants things this way, and this way is the way it is”. And that’s their idea of morality. They start with the rule, and then they use their idea of morality which is to use morality to judge people. So people are bad if they don’t obey the rule.
Progressive values start with the premise being people. That which helps people is good. That which hurts people is bad. And then they use people to judge the rule. So, if the rule helps people, it’s a good rule. And if the rule hurts people, it’s a bad rule and should be changed.
Failed Conservative Values: Carole M Marie on Rigidity
Conservatives values, just um, are very ridged and they deal with almost religious family. From a certain type of religion, which I'm very well aware of because I'm from Okalahoma. and I know the religion, I know why they frame it that way.
We need an enlarged support system around our families - education, health care.
More expanded caring feeling, much more accessible to humans, and egalitarian so to speak. Whereas republican values is very ridged, very focused, you have to be a certain type of religion or mind set. Whereas we are this large supportive caring type of feeling.
Failed Conservative Values: Nina Sharky on Dogmatism
Conservative values are based on beliefs, not the world around us. This has nothing to do with religion, because I think there are religious progressives, and there are religious “conservatives”. There is a belief among the conservatives that I know that there is right and wrong, and those people that are not in their mind right, have no rights.
That’s their core essence – that people don’t have a right to basic human dignity. That’s what I see among conservatives, that the idea is to see how much people can accumulate. And I don’t just mean in wealth – whether it’s titles. I have a friend who’s quite wealthy. He says it’s come to the game “who’s got more?” – not whether you have something to spend it on or not.
The essence of that value is that you and yours is all that matters, and that we’re all alone in this universe to be and do what we can, and what happens to the person you step over who fell down on the curb on skid row because they got dumped there by county hospital – that’s not your problem.
I think it goes beyond indifference. I think it’s actually total lack of awareness. It’s not just that they see something and say “I choose not to do anything about it”. They’re not even aware of anything outside of the bubble of what’s inside themselves.
More about Dogmatism
Dogmatism Definition:- The intolerance and prejudice of a bigot
- The manner or character of a dogmatist; arrogance or positiveness in stating opinion.
http://www.freedictionary.org/?Query=dogmatism
http://www.onelook.com/?w=DogmatismDogmatism
An approach to ideas that emphasizes rigid adherence to doctrine over rational and enlightened inquiry. The opposite approach is probably best characterized as rationalism (in the sense of devotion to clear reasoning and independent thinking) or, perhaps, eclecticism.
http://www.ismbook.com/dogmatism.htmlWikipedia
Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization, thought to be authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma
Questions to Ponder:
- Can you pose some questions about conservatives and their value of dogmatism?
- What are the progressive alternative values to dogmatism?
- What are examples of conservative dogmatism?
- What's wrong with dogmatism and why does it fail?
- In what other ways have Conservative Values Failed?
See More Failed Conservative Values Stories:
Edwin Rutsch
What Are Progressive Values? Documentary Project
http://ProgressiveSpirit.com
and Study Group
Cross Posted To:
http://www.blogforamerica.com/view/25030
http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_edwin_ru_080421_failed_conservative_.htm
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/21/133117/358/240/500118
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ProgressiveValues/
Show: Expand All Reply
Howard Dean is first.
But the "minute" is continuing. I just sent my contribution in -- no problem with the server.
Also, you can contribute to your hearts's content as the site has a good old-fashioned Dean for America thermometer that tracks incoming contributions every five minutes. Thus, my figures above are now obsolete.
mary vb
Mon, 04/21/08
Reply to this
Fred - This was in 1997 and it was a personal choice for us at the time. I think it stinks about Medicaid in Oregon though
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My bad - in 1997 the OHP was doing fine. The State Republicans destroyed it. Oregon is one of the most corporate-controlled states in the country for the insurance industry - has been anyway.
I wonder what the total was Tom since Joan and I were both late but it should have counted as credited to that effort. Joan was after me maybe she wasn't and I was or linda was and joan and I not
I didn't have sense enough to have the form all filled out ready to submit when the second hand struck 12.
it was fun anyway
re: anobamaminute - this msg is up on their site now:
Because of the overwhelming response, we are encouraging everyone to donate anytime today.
All donations will be counted towards the minute.
Welcome to the light, Stephan Van Wagoner! I used to be there too.
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Looks like Obama did just under 250K in the one minute-thon. Not bad but let's see if Hill spins it as bad news. LOL - I'd like to see her try it.
I think maybe what it proved is that Obama can raise more in a minute than McCain can in a day.
I need to pay attention. Thanks for posting the link, Tom Bearse!
Oregonians have a bad case of xenophobia - a few years ago, universal health care was narrowly defeated after the industry ran many ads warning Californians would give Oregon addresses to get on our health care plan - stealing our taxes.
CA has better health care than we do, and Oregonians aren't giving addresses down there. Besides, there would be investigations into major claims and it would be revealed.
Stephen Van Wagoner
Mon, 04/21/08
Reply to this
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Stephen, the neocon GOP does not support fair trade capitalism. The support Capitalists who live on their capital investments. It is a tiny fraction of the country.
They literally dismantled our factory equipment and re-assembled it in China, not only for cheap labor, but for the developing markets that could only afford products made with cheap labor. They wanted it all, and they prostituted our infrastructure to get it fast.
The way the neocons sold off our manufacturing infrastructure to China (and Mexico) is reminiscent of the way GM bought up all the light rail companies in the 1950s and junked them, to sell more cars. Only this time it is worse, because that was all done within the country and the work force could shift to automobiles. This time, the worker got nothing but shipping jobs.
If PA is close - when will Hillary drop out? I can't imagine the emotional turmoil she must be experiencing right now. Every time I feel some sadness or as Will Ferrell would say doing his W impersonation *compassionativity* she goes and makes a ridiculous ad like the Osama bin laden one that's out today. oy.
IMO the biggest failure of so-called (I emphasize "so-called") Conservative values is that of
RESPONSIBILITY - we assumed they meant it applied to everyone when they said "personal responsibility" back in the 1990s- we did not know it only applied to the poor (especially those who with hardship) and middle class. To government, the corporations and super-rich, they were secretly to be dispensed from having any responsibility to the country, only to themselves.
Phil from yesterday and thanks to rdorgan for posting Wings pics ~
Redwings made the change Karen suggested and voila they win.
tee, hee, Phil! Wish I could take credit for their win. Changing goalies seemed to do the trick, so far.
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Tom from yesterday~
I've also flipped a coin and determined that the Wings will make it to the finals.
Going out on a huge limb, but here's my prediction: Wings will win the Cup and Pistons will lose in first round (they've got a start at it)!
Studies from Russia warn us what Corporate America is hiding
Handsets pose danger for children
April 18, 2008, Fri 6:20 PM Telecom Security
Handsets pose danger for children and teen-agers, state experts of the Russian National Committee on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection having carried out experiments with animals of different age. The oncoming generation is recommended to reduce communication through handsets, as their nerves might be badly injured...
http://eng.cnews.ru/news/top/indexEn.shtml?2008/04/18/297775
Exodus Exegesis
By WILLIAM KRISTOLPublished: April 21, 2008Every presidential campaign has to produce a stream of appropriate statements for religious holidays, patriotic commemorations, and the like. Campaigns don’t expect to win votes with these messages. They produce them because there’s a risk of giving offense to some group or other if they don’t....
So if Clinton’s Passover message is liberal, and Obama’s is multicultural, one might call McCain’s Zionist. There’s a clear choice of worldviews here — and not just for Jews, but for all Americans.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/21/opinion/21kristol.html?th&emc=th
Puddle, love your recurring funding pitches.
If you can persuade these clowns to fix the blog, I might think about contributing.
4:10pm
DAMASCUS, Syria - The leader of Hamas said Monday that his Palestinian militant group would offer Israel a 10-year "hudna," or truce, as implicit proof of recognition of Israel if it withdrew from all lands it seized in the 1967 Middle East War.
Here is a question, when Isreal fought back the attack in 1967, which countries lost land to the IDF now claimed by the "Palestinians". (hint, the answer is not Palestine)
Watch this video of Rendell saying that young people for Obama have been drinking the kool-aid. What a horses arse.....
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/
I'm not sure I can agree that conservative values are a failure. Are they not accomplishing what was intended? Is not the ruling junta getting more consolidated and the vast majority more penurious? Do conservatives not adhere to the conviction that man is naturally violent and base and that survival depends on the weaker being subjugated to the dominators?
You say you have a different definition of success? Does it involve the allocation of power to the powerful? If not, then what good is it? Authoritarians LIKE being in charge; they get off on inflicting pain (blowing up frogs is pure childsplay). They think that the weak deserve to be abused. If you say that's evil, what are you going to do about it? Is evil a value?
4:44 PM EDT
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24243176/
Delegate results could be delayed in Pa. Counties split into multiple districts, could defer results by a day or more
updated 34 minutes ago WASHINGTON - The wait is almost over for Pennsylvania's Democratic presidential primary Tuesday, but voters may have to wait a little longer to find out who won the most delegates to the party's national convention.
As in other Democratic contests, Pennsylvania awards delegates based on the statewide vote and the vote in individual congressional districts.
Unlike most states, Pennsylvania has a large number of counties split into multiple congressional districts. That could delay results by a day or more as election officials work to assign votes to the appropriate districts.
...
Looks like Obama did just under 250K in the one minute-thon. Not bad but let's see if Hill spins it as bad news. LOL - I'd like to see her try it.
My guess is confusion will reign and they will all attack him for being "rich" and not entitled to any tax relief or stimulous package and in fact the $100,000 in tax paid on that $250,000 will deemed not to be his "fair share" and he will be attacked again. lol
Actually, Fred, I learned the other day that personal responsibility means that whatever bad happens to you is your own fault.
I suppose this could be contrasted with the Muslim belief that misfortune is god's will and He will fix it eventually.
Personal responsibility is not to be avoided and no-one should expect society to bail him out. Indeed, it's even bad to have a public kindergarten because if the state looks after kids, how will their parents learn personal responsibility. Actually, I think, this is supposed to be a euphemism for "nature" selecting out the misfits and rejects. See, the natural order aims towards the improvement of mankind, but that can only be achieved if we let the creator/nature cull the herd. I know that seems contradictory to their expressed rejection of evolution, but it really isn't. What these people believe isn't that men can be made better, but that, if the bad ones aren't removed, mankind will degenerate to the level of beasts. I do think the model of a herd of cattle isn't too far fetched. The herd will be "improved" by turning the runts into hamburger or veal patties.
What they want is for all humans to be born so they can decide which ones to kill off. That's why so-called "capital punishment" is entirely consistent with the right to life. When you come right down to it, it's a power play.
Personal responsibility means it's your responsibility to see that you don't give me reason to do you in.
25.
Fox Mulder
Mon, 04/21/08
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fair question Fox. I believe the Gaza strip was under Egyptian administration, and the West Bank was under Jordanian administration. It is important to note the Jordan regime has always been the friendliest to Israel, especially in diplomatic terms. Publicly they have presented themselves as more hostile. They were actually drawn into supporting the 1967 war at the last minute, for political reasons, and were never a strong advisary. These were put aside in 1948 as refugee lands for the Palestinians kicked out of their homeland by the "invading" Zionists, who had been intending to take the land by force since Jabotinsky's ideology of Iron Wall Zionism, and finally had the opportunity in 1947 with the bible as their "deed".
In the 1947-8 event the Jordan regime conspired with Israel to act as if they were advisaries but had a secret non-aggression pact.
Would someone please be kind enough to tell me what channel The Daily Show is on and what time. Thanks.
Monica Smith
Mon, 04/21/08
Reply to this
Actually, Fred, I learned the other day that personal responsibility means that whatever bad happens to you is your own fault.
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That is another part of the picture and I agree. It is the belief that successful people deserve what they have and their good luck because God is rewarding them for being better people. This is an ancient belief that goes back to paganism, but the book of Job was a counterpoint to this, as were countless parables of Jesus' teachings.
Before you get exercised Phil, I know you don't think of your cows that way. I was just trying to explain the conservative attitude.
Bush has been widely successful at all of his objectives. Drown the baby in the bathtub with tax cuts that make a functioning government a thing of the past paying off the deficit, work for every war contractor with a gleam in his eye, and the biggie, the most gigantuan oil company profiteering of a century.
I name my cull steers "Robert" and they all end up at McDonalds but biff and fox might get a blog baby named after them too.
Monica Smith
Mon, 04/21/08
Reply to this
Actually, I think, this is supposed to be a euphemism for "nature" selecting out the misfits and rejects. See, the natural order aims towards the improvement of mankind, but that can only be achieved if we let the creator/nature cull the herd.
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Even if it is [ a euphemism...] it is incorrect according to the principle of evolution. There are two survival rules: Survival of the most specialized [fittest] ; Survival of the most unspecialized.
They both are relative to the environment of the species. Not to any ideal of physical mental or spiritual superiority. Survival of the fittest/specialized applies to stable environments. Survival of the unspecialized applies to environmental [geological] revolution in turmoil.
the press still hasn't got the high corn prices right, I heard Koeppel on NPR, and the actual present effect is cheaper meat prices as the cattle and swine herds are liquidated adding to the tonnage of meat going through the plants, not current higher meat prices, that has to do with the high cost of energy and the weak dollar,livestock producer balance sheets look like the FEC report for Clinton,( just another feedyard, looking at the books).
the higher prices will come later
but where is the outrage at all the farmland going under development each year
Why is Gov. Rendell so silent today about Louis Farrakhan?
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/category/roland-s-martin/
Wasn't it Clinton who brought up Farrakhan out of the blue in the last debate? Here is video of Clinton aide Rendell endorsing Farrakhan
13. 17. Fred, it was the conservative movement that did this.. the movement voted for this, supported it, .why is there this constant attempt at letting conservatives off the hook. why blame it on the neocons? on Bush? on, on.. . this is the new conservative movement, what they do they need to take responsibility for.. (as you say). .. maybe at one time conservative meant something else. maybe in the future 30, 40, 50 years.. it will mean something else again.. words change meanings, peoples values change... but now conservativism stands for the failed values we see it manifesting.
Watch this video of Rendell saying that young people for Obama have been drinking the kool-aid. What a horses arse.....
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/
Thanks mary
Rendell just doesn't get it! That's good for Obama.
I just hope Rendell doesn't try any nonsense with the votes tomorrow.
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Pennsylvania: State of Denial
By Marybeth Kuznik, VotePA
March 31, 2008
With the national spotlight on The Keystone State's April 22 Primary, many heads remain buried in sand when it comes to electronic voting.
Part 1 -
In March 2004, Governor Ed Rendell announced a new tourism slogan for Pennsylvania: "The State of Independence". But with Pennsylvania officials continuing along in what seems to be mindless oblivion to the dangers of paperless electronic voting machines, perhaps Pennsylvania's slogan should be "The State of Denial" when it comes to elections.
Following the inconclusive Ohio and Texas Democratic primaries earlier this month, the national spotlight turned swiftly to Pennsylvania's April 22 election as the next battleground. And in the glare of that white-hot national spotlight it is more apparent than ever that there is great risk for electoral disaster in The Keystone State.
With fifty-one of its most populous counties still voting on completely paperless Direct Record Electronic machines, Pennsylvania remains one of the last twelve states to have passed no law requiring every vote to be backed up with a voter-verified paper record or ballot.
Time and time again Pennsylvania has had to replace failed electronic voting machines, bailing out counties and vendors at taxpayer expense. Pennsylvania has been plagued with a rash of problems caused by failures of paperless, unverifiable voting machines. These problems ranged from extremely high levels of undervotes (indicating a large number of voters are not having their votes counted), to faulty programming and ballot preparation, to outright loss of votes due to machines being set up improperly on Election Day.
of course I cull my herd Monica, but a modern dairy cow is more an invention than a species
This was quick. Obama response to fear ad.
WhatAre Progressive Values
Mon, 04/21/08
Reply to this
=================I understand your point completely. I did not mean to imply their were good and bad political conservatives nowadays. I was only making an academic point on the meaning of the word. However, having said that, not all conservative values are bad, per se, and among those good conservative values we have many that may not bad in essence but they are bad in how they are articulated and implemented.
There is going to be a live Obama campaign event from Pittsburgh around 730 PM on CSPAN.
Edwin
we need to come up with a label for "conservatives" other than that word for the haters and the "I've got mine, Jack." crowd that listens to Rush Limbaugh.
dittoheads is what they call themselves because they can't think for themselves
the "vulture capitalists" are another class but they know that they are just "using" the dittoheads
too many good people self identify as "conservatives" to make it politically useful to attack them directly
you can also catch the repeat of the Daily show at 8PM(eastern) on comedy central.
Joan In Florida
Mon, 04/21/08
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==========================================Hillary's greatest accomplishment for students was lowering loan payments? That's not helping. That was a bi-partisan attempt to stem the tide of defaults on student loans, and bankruptcies (yes you can discharge student loans, but must present a case of undue hardship before a judge)The credit card companies LOVE lower payments. It means more interest income for them.
I was disappointed when Dodd put 7.5 billion in for contractors and developers in his mortgage response, because mindless sprawl is not something that should be encouraged.
There were funny images on the Newshour. Hillary was yacking in front of people who started chatting with each other and then some got up and left in the middle. Then they cut to a giant college stadium/auditorium, entirely empty, being prepared for tonight's event.
50. Phil
I think neoconservative "neocons" works for the scumbags.
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By Stephen Van Wagoner on Apr 21, 2008 2:22 PMFor many years, I considered myself to be a social democrat and an economic republican. That is until I finally realized what it means to be an economic republican. It means talking loudly about reducing taxes (mainly for the wealthy and large corporations), while spending lavishly on the military and supporting corporate subsidies. These two concepts held simultaneously leads to enormous deficits like the one we now have. Our children and their children will be paying those deficits off. Economic republicans also say that government is the problem. Just get out of the way and let corporations do their thing. Well, we did get out of the way and the corporations in their incessant efforts for ever larger profits sent almost all of our manufacturing jobs to China, India, and Mexico. Yes, slave labor is very profitable! Now the corporations have record profits and what do we have? We have crappy plastic Wal-Mart products that break almost as soon as we buy them. We receive millions of sales phone calls from India. We have poisoned food and drugs from China and Mexico. What we don’t have anymore is a strong economy and a strong currency. Have you noticed that the American dollar doesn’t buy shit anymore. It does buy Wal-Mart shit that you have to replace every six months. And that is just the way the republicans want it. Economic republicans and their corporate shills sold this country out. It has been said that the republican base consists of millionaires and suckers with the vast majority in the latter case.