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The Iraq War Debate
Voices unheard ~ my letter to the Phila. Inquirer - The editorial “The Iraq debate – Five Years Later” offered many voices and facets of the dilemma then and now. However, I believe that some voices were not heard when the statement was made, “With Saddam gone, we will not leave Iraq worse than we found it...” I refer to the voices of the almost 90,000 Iraqis killed and their survivors, the more than 4 million Iraqis displaced, the untold injured and maimed, the orphans, the current population living with inadequate electricity, tainted water and disease and so much of the population not knowing if today will be the day that they or family member or friend will be blown up into unrecognizable pieces. The claim that Iraq is or will be better off is reminiscent of the arrogance of our President, the imperialism of our Vice-President and the amorality of the neoconservative philosophy that fueled this misadventure.
http://stephenviewsthenews.blogspot.com/
Hi all. Got into my car at BART to come home, NPR was on from this a.m. First thing I heard was an angry AA fella talking...with the speech ending in, "no, not God bless America, God-d@mn America!!!
Yup... Rev. Wright's sermon. NPR had a panel discussing wright, Obama's speech today.
First, I'm deeply moved and impressed with obama's speech. The politically easy move would have been to condemn Wright and distance immediately. He probed the matter intelligently and with great insight.
How will this whole thing play on blue-collar America's ears? I'm not sure but this group isn't known for its critical-thinking skills:(
I think we're in trouble here.
FIX THE BLOG.
Murtha just endorsed Clinton. That's disappointing. Her first Super D since before Super Tuesday.
I hope more starting turning out for Obama.
Yes, cC, we've got the tabloid media replaying Wright all the time. NPR is disappointing as hell.
Happy 1/2 Birthday to puddle and Paine!
7:35 pm est
mary vb, actually, the panel on NPR was well-balanced and mostly favorable to Obama (caveat: I did not hear the whole thing).
I thought that Obama's comment that the racial divide is most prevalent during one hour every Sunday...meaning that most white folks don't have a clue that many blacks and even black pastors are ANGRY.
The pastor's remarks are inflammatory, provocative and he is/was on the campaign management team of a candidate for president.....This is a much stickier wicket than the Dean scream, I'm afraid.
Barack met the issue head on and attempted a thoughtful dialogue. Sadly, in our culture, thoughtful dialogue is trumped by dumbed down sloganeering:(
A link to the text of Obama's speech.
http://www.democracyarsenal.org/2008/03/...
OBAMA FOR PRESIDENT!!!
Did anyone go back and tell the old thread that there's a new one?
People who think repugs are registering as dems to vote for HC are doing so becuz they want to beat her when they vote for McC, might re-think that. It's likely that there are a lot of repugs who don't like McC and prefer HC this this time around.
Hard to second guess this, but we should look at more than one opinion.
22.
Michael Ellis
Tue, 03/18/08
8.FRED from Ashland OR
Tue, 03/18/08
_________________________________________
Fred,
How dare you say these things..........its political suicide.......BO has an election towin..........
You are so full of crap............
=================================
I dare say such things because I have invested the time to read the facts both historical and current, (while you were pumping iron) and that's the reality.
Oh, yes, I do know that I could not "dare" to say such things if I had an election of my own "towin", so I'm "towin" the line for those who are running - since their hands are tied...
au revoir, Ironman
sea, I did tell the previous thread but likely my post fluttered up towards the middle.
pink-eye.
I dare say such things because I have invested the time to read the facts both historical and current====
heh.
Just watched Obama's speech for a second time on CSPAN. Great, great speech.
cChalfonte, I think everything is going to be all right. Maybe it is wishful thinking.
David, good luck in PA.
The thing that really fries me about this is that the Rightwing nutters spew virulent hate speeches day in and day out and there is no outrage....in fact, many of the spewers are supporters and advisors to elected Republicans!?!
David vs Goliath or Brother vs Brother and all in the name of God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath#Jew...
...The authors of the Babylonian Talmud gave Goliath a pedigree suited to his character as the adversary of David: Sotah 42b tells that he was a son of Orpah, the sister-in-law of Ruth, David's own grandmother. The Ruth Rabbah, a haggadic and homiletic interpretation of the Book of Ruth, makes the blood-relationship even closer, considering Orpah and Ruth to have been full sisters. Orpah was said to have made a pretense of accompanying Ruth but after forty paces left her; thereafter she led a dissolute life, so that the identity of Goliath's father was impossible to ascertain.
The Talmud stresses Goliath's ungodliness: his taunts before the Israelites included the boast that it was he who had captured the Ark of the Covenant and brought it to the temple of Dagon; and his challenges to combat were made at morning and evening in order to disturb the Israelites in their prayers. His armour weighed 60 tons, according to rabbi Hanina; 120, according to rabbi Abba bar Kahana; and his sword, which became the sword of David, had marvellous powers. On his death it was found that his heart carried the image of Dagon, who thereby also came to a shameful downfall.
In Pseudo-Philo, believed to have been composed between 135 BCE and 70 CE, David picks up seven stones and writes on them the names of his fathers, his own name, and the name of God, one name per stone; then, speaking to Goliath, he says: "Hear this word before you die: were not the two woman from whom you and I were born, sisters? and your mother was Orpah and my mother Ruth..." After David strikes Goliath with the stone he runs to Goliath before he dies and Goliath says, "Hurry and kill me and rejoice," and David replies, "Before you die, open your eyes and see your slayer;" Goliath sees an angel and tells David that it is not he who has killed him but the angel. Pseudo-Philo then goes on to say that the angel of the Lord changes David's appearance so that no one recognizes him, and thus Saul asks who he is.
The early Christian church, seeking "types" (fore-runners, prefigurations) for its own beliefs and history throughout the Jewish scriptures, found a rich lode of metaphores in the stories of David: David's marriage of Bathsheba was seen as a model of the church's wooing of the community of believers away from the discredited Jewish faith, his speech to followers during the flight from Absalom was a prefiguring of Jesus's farewell speech to his disciples, and the battle with Goliath symbolised the church's eternal but victorious battle with Satan. ...
"It’s depressing, but Michael Crowley’s point in response to the speech is important: “[It was] brilliant, beautiful, inspiring — but perhaps not what crass electoral politics demanded of him.”
____
What Obama is doing is called "flipping the script. "
Get used to it. The country's survival may depend on it.
8:46 PM EST
He is asking something from Americans rather than just promising things to them — another formulation long out of vogue.
+++
Sound familiar ?
"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country" - JFK, 1961
+++
dog soldier and mary vb -
I actually like what Carney has to say about Obama's speech.
IMO the speech is, as the Brits say, "spot on" and Barack talked about how there's racism and misunderstanding against blacks by whites, and vice versa.
It was an equal opportunity speech that showed how divided we are because we largely don't spend some of the most relaxed hours of our lives (barber shops, churches, dining, etc.) mixed with other races.
In a time or great uncertainty and of economic and other fears, the speech strangely talked more about what we can GIVE each other, rather than what we can GET from the government, etc. It was asking all of us to be more charitable to each other, more tolerant.
In other words, the Fed is not going to rescue us, the teachers aren't going to save our school kids, etc. -- that it will truly "take a village" -- of not US versus THEM but rather ALL of us in this together.
Now, I fully expect that the George Jeffersons in the AA community would say that Barack is not being black enough in his speech, and that the Archie Bunkers in the white community would say he's not being white enough.
Well, he's in the middle and the middle is what IMO this country so desparately needs.
"Call it framing or call it leadership, Obama is leading the country already. Rev. Write's example is the one Obama rejected, like he rejects Bush's war."
Coincident, my scanning here is. Geez, I thought Puddle had a half b-day a while ago, but after doing the math on two hands I find Thankful is being kind.
I watched Keith tonight and what was so hilarious was in the beginning he was giving quotes from various sources on Barack's speech. He came to the My dd quote and called it *My dd, the pro-Hillary site*. LOL.
After the Arabs' defeat in the 1948 war, their positions became confused: some Arab leaders demanded the "return" of the "expelled" refugees to their former homes despite the evidence that Arab leaders had called upon Arabs to flee. [Such as President Truman's International Development Advisory Board Report, March 7, 1951: "Arab leaders summoned Arabs of Palestine to mass evacuation... as the documented facts reveal..."] At the same time, Emile Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Command, called for the prevention of the refugees from "return." He stated in the Beirut Telegraph on August 6, 1948: "it is inconceivable that the refugees should be sent back to their homes while they are occupied by the Jews.... It would serve as a first step toward Arab recognition of the state of Israel and Partition."
Arab activist Musa Alami despaired: as he saw the problem, "how can people struggle for their nation, when most of them do not know the meaning of the word? ... The people are in great need of a 'myth' to fill their consciousness and imagination. . . ." According to Alami, ar indoctrination of the "myth" of nationality would create "identity" and "self-respect."8
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More on David vs Goliath
The ancient texts speak that the manifestation of mortal sin or the temporary loss of virtue is caused by humanities ignorance of our spiritually nature. All fear is created by lack or the not knowing this connection. The seven deadly sins of the wild beast within humanity are arrogance, jealously, over-indulgence, self gratification, hate, greed, and laziness. The taming of these forces within all humanity that we must individually one day confront are our temptations in our own personal version of being in the wilderness. There are several very ancient symbols that describe this great work. One symbol is the star of David.
I'll second the b'day wishes to puddle & paine...good thing you guys share a b'day to make it whole
Happy WHOLE birthday to kimmy!! (wish my computer hadn't done stole ALL my cakes. . . .)
Lol! Read -- on September 18, we have a triple birthday. Paine's twin was born the same day as I was. . . .
Obama was really very good IMHO today. I was at a stop, which had Fox on and listened to a good bit of his speech, so I heard quite a lot. To my amazement [praise BFA, Puddle for her generous natural mentoring of any "newbie" ever chance to stop by BFA (Happy Half Birthday, Puddle!), and everyone who has ever contributed to this weblog], I was able to repeat much of what was relevant to those I crossed paths with later.
Barack was wonderful.
G@d bless America and all of us.
I've been catching on today's news here while doing committee stuff...thanks folks. I couldn't sleep last night and watched some of Winter Soldier...now that winter is (slowly) dying down I can start up my public access television show again and it appears they've given public access rights to show this. Only been able to hear part of Obama's speech today though a committee member did send me these links so I can read or hear it when I get a minute...
Read: http://www.salon.com/news/primary_source...
Listen: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...
9:36 PM EST
Thankful -
Just curious, are you the Amazing Kreskin [smile], for you seem to know all of us bloggers' birthdays, wedding anniversarys ?
puddle...you mean to say there's two of 'em?
For the BFA chaos:
May you be entertained by a drunk peeing on your carpet before retiring to his bed.
Hey, Reed and Puddle! Casey thanks you, too.
Time for a catnap...snow & freezing rain on the horizon.
Ever since I heard Pelosi say she was the Chr of the convention in Denver, I've been wondering how that happened and what her role is.
I called her office and asked that question, and was she going to preside over everything. The aide excused himself and came back and said I could call the DNC.
So, I did, and made a donation and left an encouraging note for Howard. I was told he reads all of the comments. He didn't know the answer to my question however, and gave me the Chairman's office and another number to call, but there was only voicemail.
I will keep trying. It nags at me that Pelosi might try to hog the spotlight, especially from Howard. She likes the center of attention.
Been watching CNN....nothing but the pastor, of course. I think Barack needs to move on....refer folks to his speech of today if they ask about it.
He needs to stay focused on the economy. That's what will win. If he is perceived by blue collar white men as someone who "wants to talk about race", we'll lose them. They want to hear how the next president is going to ease their pocketbook pain.
Linda wrote "I forgive you too if you just wiped from your memory the Toricelli Fundraising for John Kerry and Jones and Robert Gibbs (Obama campaign)."
Your kindness is endearing. Did Torricelli bundle $100K for Obama, too?
Fred, Mike was agreeing with you and then you flame on him. Read more carefully before you attack, as always.
With so many words about race, his speech was essentially about “something else” to which race may became a “distraction”, “this time” AGAIN.
Not this time! Bravo Obama!
cC wrote in reference to Obama's speech today, "How will this whole thing play on blue-collar America's ears? I'm not sure but this group isn't known for its critical-thinking skills:("
>
Ouch! my balls hurt:-(
seashell wrote "It's likely that there are a lot of repugs who don't like McC and prefer HC this this time around."
A Republican who prefers Clinton to McCain. I think you've just invented a new species of voter.
ABC News on Obama's speech and the reaction of Michelle Obama.
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Vote2008/Story?...
Fox wrote "Fred, Mike was agreeing with you and then you flame on him."
Is it true that telling someone he is so full of crap connotes agreement? You are so full of crap, Matt.
puddle...you mean to say there's two of 'em?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It would seem so. Though I just have to take others' word for it. . . .
NY Times: Mr. Obama's Profile in Courage.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/opinio...
Fox wrote "It is called sarcasm, you brilliant, witty soul!!! Recognize it???"
It that case, I am just being sarcastic. You are not full of crap at all.
First off, happy whole, half, and very merry un-birthdays to one and all.
Second, I have a sense of zenlike calm about Obama and his campaign. He is a person of unusual gifts and he has several weeks to campaign in Pennsylvania and have people there hear him.
When people hear him, they can't help but be impressed. I don't care what kind of mouth-breathing troglodytes they may be otherwise -- they will be impressed if they hear him. And he is such a unique figure that people will want to hear him even if they walk in a supporter of a different candidate.
He exudes calm, whle Hillary exudes stridency. Her campaign reeks of desperation while his remains cool and poised.
I trust him to make the right decisions to get the nomination and win the election.
The speech was perfect.
-- volney
Thanks Mary vb, for posting the URLs to ABC and the NY Times. We have not seen such honesty, such thoughtfulness in politics in many years. That's why Howard Dean drew so many of us. He was talking about issues that matter. His passion, clear articulation, and anger energized us. Now we have someone of his calibre though with a different style and manner.
As Howard Fineman said on Keith Olbermann's Countdown, but how did it play with the knuckle heads? I wonder. My best hope is that we are open to reasoning, to recognizing the honesty about an issue that involves us all, that we are people of good will and grateful for all this country has given us. That we believe in fairness and have the will to deal with intractable and historical problems.
I feel that if we do not elect this young man as a leader, we will not only be finished as a leader around the world, we will be continuing the corruption and collusion that resulted in the Iraq War, the dismantling of the Justice Dept., and the weaking of our financial structure.
We need this leader so much.
In contrast, I think it's sad that Bill Clinton's real nature is so exposed. He fights dirty; he lies; he'll throw anyone who doesn't benefit him away. This campaign is sullying his legacy. The first black president has revealed himself to have been someone who exploited that relationship, and when the competition became too strong, he denigrated people: Jesse Jackson, Barack Obama, and others. I'm sorry to see it happen.
"Selma: the prophetic urge... the urgency of now...the imperative of change ....the risk of change - putting pressure on the political system...today we reap the benefits of those struggles"
~ Jesse Jackson at Take Back America: Civil Rights
per last:
building a progressive movement based on the lessons of Martin Luther King. The panel is part of the "Take Back America" conference hosted by The Campaign for America's Future.
"As Howard Fineman said on Keith Olbermann's Countdown, but how did it play with the knuckle heads?"
Well I liked it!
Oh.
Ouch! my balls hurt:-(======
paine,....first: HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YA!
Blue collar is just my shorthand for the many Americans represented by my family. Having Easter brunch with Mom, sis, nieces/nephews and cousins and their kids. Mostly Democrats in this bunch of the fam but a number of Reagan Dems. I can hear them reeling at the pastor's remarks. I meant no offense to the group -- again, my own fam.
This is the audience that Barack needed to reach with his remarks today. We lose them -- we lose the election.
Most of us here agree that Barack was brilliant today. Unfortunately, he didn't need to sell us-- we're already sold.
Anyway, Happy Birthday again, and honestly, I didn't mean to kick you in the cajones. Peace.
Leon E. Panetta, a chief of staff in the Clinton administration, said in an interview that “there’s no question” Mr. Clinton had made mistakes in the campaign.
“I think one thing I’ve always seen about Bill Clinton is his ability to always come back,” he said. “In the long run, people’s feelings about Bill Clinton and his positions on issues and the good things that he did — there will always be a reservoir of good will for that.”
Forgot to say happy birthday to the twins here on the blog.
I feel good about today. I was a little stressed about the Wright situation but Obama is the person we really do need to lead our country. He is so cool and level-headed.
I loved that knuckle heads quote too.
Nite all and sweet dreams.
cC, it's a "half" -birf day, and you're on target about those Regan dems. Heck, I work next to these guys (idiots! ...kidding;-)) ...not really::wink, wink::: And, BTW my cajones are OK. Really, I just checked. No pain, no gain. I 'm into pain, hehe.
People who think repugs are registering as dems to vote for HC are doing so becuz they want to beat her when they vote for McC, might re-think that. It's likely that there are a lot of repugs who don't like McC and prefer HC this this time around.
Republicans might prefer Hillary over one of their own? Might prefer to allow Bill back in the WH?
You may unfasten fasten your seatbelts.....we've landed at Fantasy Island.
For emphasis to prove ...the twin thing for Puddle:
the tips of the hats to the "twins" ignores Puddle and ...kimmy
You can see my/our older brother say to himself, "What, am I chopped liver?" as folks walk right by in search of the novelty (IE twins).
I thought Obama's speech was fantastic. I had tears in my eyes. I agree that it isn't enough to stem the tide of the wall to wall coverage on the msm. Someone said how crazy it was that they were nailing him not for something he said but for something his pastor said. Think it was someone here sorry don't remember who.
Other stupid headlines of the day:
Cheney says Iraq was a response to 9/11.
http://www.heraldonline.com/wire/world/s...
and already reported but makes me sad:
Murtha endorses Clinton
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/200...
But Dancing with the Stars was good :~)
Painie if it's your BD happy happy or is it your mid-year BD? Also Puddle.
Nitie.
Night folkies.
come All Ye) Rolling Minstrels
Come all ye rolling minstrels
And together we will try
To rouse the spirit of the earth
And move the rolling sky
Those that dance will start to dance
And those who don't will stay
In time to lis our merry tune
That we play for you today
(Chorus)
So come all ye rolling minstrels
And together we will try
To rouse the spirit of the earth
And move the rolling sky
Our fiddler, he just loves to play
And that's why he plays so good
And now he plays a violin
Made out of solid wood
(Chorus)
Possessor of the magic touch
And no magician he
Will play for you some magic notes
Instead, as you will see
(Chorus)
Sound of beating on the drum
Song behind you'll hear
And to the rhythm of guitar
We hope you'll lend an ear
(Chorus)
Well, the man who plays the bass does make
Those low notes that you hear
And the high notes come from you and me
For we will sing so clear
(Chorus) (come All Ye) Rolling Minstrels
Best Wishes to Kimmy.
...........................................
The Trashmen - 'Surfin' Bird'.
love at ya Kimmy, give Mina a hug too, her blog baby is doing fine
"Been watching CNN....nothing but the pastor, of course. I think Barack needs to move on....refer folks to his speech of today if they ask about it.
He needs to stay focused on the economy. That's what will win. If he is perceived by blue collar white men as someone who "wants to talk about race", we'll lose them. They want to hear how the next president is going to ease their pocketbook pain."
Bulls Eye,
What you said.
I would only add that the decisive audience is not limited to to the endangered species of the "blue collar white men."
-
By Tom Bearse on Mar 18, 2008 1:14 PM EDTDean is first, and then some.