Also, we invite you  to join the;

What are Progressive Values Study Group on DFA link
  300+ members and counting.
   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ProgressiveValues/

Progressive Values Yahoo discussion group email list at:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ProgressiveValues/

Monthly Progressive Values Study Group Meetings
    See the Next Meeting in SF Bay Area, CA
    http://progressivespirit.com/StudyGroup/

I would leave the video up! Why remove it, Edwin?

What would be the point of self-censorship, if that's the self behind what is getting censored? (self meaning "progressives overall.")

I think that there is a strong difference between "Progressive Values," and "Party Establishment Values," don't you?

Thanks for sharing 

Here's my 2nd reply, Edwin:

http://www.blogforamerica.com/view/23950...

shortcut back

Howard's still first. Sigh.

skeeters

Same questions, same answers but I heard BO say that his highest priority as prez would be to keep us SAFE.  Sorry, BO, there is no safety.  My highest priority is to be FREE.  And then he went on about the military and best in the world.  Too much testosterone and he's sounding quite militant.

On health care, HC wins.

On Iraq and foreign policy, HC wins.  MO

But barely.  But this safety thing really perked up my ears.

So we have Kyl-Lieb..........a big minus for Hillary.  Her priorities as prez would be health care, education, women and a few things I can't remember.

His priority as prez is to keep us safe. ...a big minus for him IMO

Then we have the "strongest military in the world" cr!p and his willingness to go into Pakistan w/o being invited.   THAT is very dangerous.  What happens if he's given bad intel on purpose?  

If either is more a warmongerer than the other, I think BO would qualify.

Perhaps there is something to the differences between and man and a woman.  His testosterone oozed when talking about the military.  She has softened and mellowed and become very gracious.

That said,

Dodd/Feingold

Johnny Cash - Personal Jesus         http://hypem.com/track/486288

Nothing on the NAFTA highway.  Nothing on the unitary executive.  Nothing on Pakistan.  The CM asks the same question at each debate.  It's really quite discouraging and is designed to keep the voters ignorant about other issues..and to keep the race going.  IMO  But I did see a rather big distinction in foreign policy which I hadn't seen/heard before.

And I didn't like how both of them uses the word "war" and "enemies" in such a cavalier way.  We need a different mind-set! Isn't that what he said?  Well, where is it?

I don't want the strongest military in the world.  I want it scaled back and all wars stopped. 

***********************

BO said we're at war.  We're not.  We're an unwelcome and occupying force and the military *war* was over years ago. 

6.

seashell :-)

...Too much testosterone and he's sounding quite militant.

===================
I think you are taking a boilplate statement and making it bigger than life.

I didn't see it that way. His point was not that we have this military power, it was what to do with it.

I still don't know, or like either health care plan. He seemed unsure on health care plans, but covers his ass by leaving the process open to inclusion of other ideas. Hillary may or may not have the better idea, but had her chance and blew it, by failing to have an open forum.

Why should she get another chance and he none?

herky jerky almost live feed on my almost fast internet connection

I should have just waited for the transcript, lol

I don't think it moved many voters, looked like two camps of supporters. I didn't hear anything as earthshaking as s m's morning. tie goes to the guy with the mo 

Hillary did a very warm ending and it helped her. You catch more flies with honey.

Phil wrote, "don't think it moved many voters"

 Advantage Obama.

Edwin

progressives search for the truth and value open-ness

leave it up

it is clear that there will be a Clintonian "ethnic cleansing" of progressives if some of her team get their way and she wins

it is one of their values

Maybe, Fred, but didn't he himself say that words are important..or did she say that?

Frankly, I look for actions to be consistent with words. 

Audrey, where's the *clique*, nipping at my heels?  LOL 

She said that no matter what happens, everyone will be OK.  I think she means that.  

She seems more focused whereas he's tentative and fuzzy at times.  She's a fighter; he wants to talk and work with those wonderful cooperative repugs.  

8.

seashell :-)

...BO said we're at war.
===================================

again, you are making a mountain out of a molehole. I agree it is technically incorrect to call it a war, but There are millions of people that have always been against this invasion and occupation from the start, who call it a war.

"I will keep posting that d*mn paragraph until those that find fault acknowledge the qualifiers which shows that Barack Obama understands the problem.~~~~~~~~~~"

His text does not indicate that he realizes the problem is upon us, he classifies it only as something to address in the long term. 

"A strategy of doing nothing and letting globalization run its course won't result in the imminent collapse of the American economy."    ....    "But over the long term doing nothing probably means an America very different from the one most of us grew up in. .....~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"So let us have a discussion of solutions."

Close the deficit by immediate resumption of Clinton's 1993 Tax Rates. 

suspend China's most favored nation status,
(Wall Street and The Multinationals will howl at the threat of that)

tax fossil fuel consumption to fund the conversion to
a sustainable economy.

I think it was a draw.

BO first said that they had philosophical differences; then he changed and agreed with her that it was substantive.  Or maybe I got that all wrong. 

Clinton had a nice closing. It was gracious. Kind of the tone she should have taken after the polls closed in Wisconsin after her thumping. She really is a better person than her campaign leads one to believe. Her own team has been her worst enemy all along.

"There are millions of people that have always been against this invasion and occupation from the start, who call it a war."

Are words important or not?  Do words combine to form a mind-set? Or not?  When we're at *war* it's easy to scare people into the safety thing.   I don't want either one of these 2 to take office as another "war"prez, with unitary powers, impervious to impeachment.  Do you?

We've got to change the conversation and that leads me back to

Gore/Boxer 

12.

seashell :-)
Thu, 02/21/08

Reply to this

Maybe, Fred, but didn't he himself say that words are important..or did she say that?... She's a fighter; he wants to talk and work with those wonderful cooperative repugs.

=============

But some words are much more "key" words and "code" words than others.

You cannot make every term you don't like a code word - in either candidate.

Fighting Republicans is not the question. It is a fight FOR the people against Beltway politicians in both parties.

For the Presidential campaign, it is not ferocity of the fighter that will matter, it is the intelligence of the fighter that will make the difference.

--Josh Marshall

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

Thank you Ronald and a nice set of solutions.

"it is clear that there will be a Clintonian "ethnic cleansing" of progressives if some of her team get their way and she wins"

Well, the MoveOn team shouldn't expect a state dinner.

But, Presidents and their parties need coalitions. 
Don't expect Madame President to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Giving it up to Obama just to ride the bandwagon doesn't seem to be a wise
way to build progressive capital.

Howard Dean talks about John McCain and about superdelegates.  Good  interview.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1846

“We have been living for 40 years in a political, moral and spiritual ice age,” he told the congregation that included a number of candidates vying to take or retain office in the Super Tuesday elections. But a melt down, a phenomenon West, 54, said he didn't think he'd witness in his lifetime, is on the horizon. The professor of Religion called for a new world order, one that would begin with the election of Obama.

He continued his ardent push for Obama, talking to a crowd of volunteers and supporters at a downtown Obama campaign office Monday. West greeted the crowd by thanking them for “wisely choosing the right side of history.” He went on to tell the diverse gathering, “Because we're here not just to make history, we want to change history. We want not just to change history, we want to change it in a certain kind of way.

And Barack Obama is the leader…And what we will see is a change that involves what Sly Stone calls 'everyday people.'” But West wasn't always a staunch Obama supporter. “Initially I was very suspicious of my brother…because it looked as if, early on, he was such a darling of the mainstream media. And anybody who is a darling of the mainstream media warrants deep suspicion from me,” the acclaimed author and noted academe said.

But after having a conversation with Obama that West said delved into, among other things, the Senator's regard for the plight of Black people in the U.S. and the trailblazing strides made by Negro forefathers, West was sold. Now, like so many who have cleaved to the freshman senator's message of hope, West is one of Obama's most outspoken, prolific supporters. “I had a chance to look more closely at his record,” West said of his double-take of Obama.

He was struck by Obama's work for ex-offenders, the legislation he championed. “That was just my ignorance. I had to learn about the brother,” the Democracy Matters author said of his initial Obama assessment. As West pointed out to the Blacks, whites, Asians, women, men, young adults and baby boomers in the campaign office, Monday, Obama's support cuts across many social, ethnic and gender divides. In the Iowa Caucuses, a convincing number of white Americans propelled the mixedraced Harvard graduate to victory.

http://www.chicagodefender.com/view.php?...

weeping exema

Rectal Bleeding

BO said that he would make sure our military is on proper rotations.  Why do we need rotations if we're not at "war?"  Why do we need rotations if we're not in Iraq? 

Sounds to me like he's planning on being in the ME for a long time.  

Off of Phil's comment (18) about Clinton's closing, I think that it was a nice 'balance' between the authority-experience role she has been pushing in her stump (with debatable success), and the more submissive feminine position she is 'expected' to take as a woman. That's sexist, I know, but it is the unfortunate reality Clinton has to struggle with: being seen as eating the microphone and being the leader of a great political machine, or being seen as the crying former first-lady. There's little middle ground.

But at the end of the debate she did something wonderful for herself: (1) she was sensitive about the Americans whom she addressed as "worse" off than her, and (2) she related that personal sympathy to health care policy. Non-gendered politics work well for her I guess, because even CNN is raving about Clinton's strong ending.

Hi People,

My two cents: Have been up since 1 AM, so probably spelling will be ridiculous.

Hillary very strong opening and closing.  As one pundit said, her first connection with the audience since New Hampshire.  

David Gergen said that it was also a high minded closing should she lose Texas.  

Another said, that while HIllary was strong, sometimes she comes off as hectoring, and I'd agree with that,  matter of style, really.

Barack Obama did well with the question as to whether he was all talk and no action.  When his sense of humor responded that 20 million who voted for him, the staffs who worked for him were delusional and that the newspapers who endorsed him were duped, I thought that was a very good moment for  him.

Also, the health care question, in my opinion, was probably pretty even, though I thought his talking about transparency was a plus for him, that her plan was behind closed doors and not even the Democrats knew what it was.

I thought Obma's emphasis on the military was good because that will be something that will be part of the debate with McCain.  I've read that we continue to spend exorbitatnt sums for Lockheed and Boeing for equipment that we don't need.  What we need is manpower to fight a new kind of war, not WWII all over again, but the Pentagon and the contractors are locked into an arrangement for ever more planes, fighters, missiles, which are the biggest part of the military.

Finally, the pundits said that Obama came on stronger than in any previous debate.  One said that he came off as very presidential.

So, all in all, a good debate, probably not many changed their minds.  For me, while I don't like authoritarian leadership, I have to say that Hillary came off very well.  But, Obama is the kind of leader I want, and he seemed stronger as the debate went on.  I particularly like his cool head, his anlysis, and his openness to a variety of ideas.

 Now I will stumble off to my bed.  Night all.

26.

seashell :-)
Thu, 02/21/08

BO said that he would make sure our military is on proper rotations.
================================

he was obviously referring to the past Bush abuses. Are you sure you're not paranoid?

BO's debating skills have improved greatly.  I wonder if the CM will starting pushing hard on a *dream ticket* altho I doubt HC would accept a VP slot.  I still think the fix was in for HC/BO and something may be changing that - the voters?  Or the perception created by the CM and the manipulation of the voters' minds?

That's a good article, Denise, thanks.  

I'd like to see the two morphed into one, since they have very different and agreeable personal qualities.   

Rachel Maddow says that Democratic voters love both of these two candidates.

Yup.

"For the Presidential campaign, it is not ferocity of the fighter that will matter, it is the intelligence of the fighter that will make the difference."

Fred, I think we need both. 

And yes, it's not paranoia exactly; it's the belief that the MIC is not gonna let go of the country.  Maybe I read too much into the rotation thing, or maybe we heard a bit of BO's subconcious coming thru.  I would like them both to say that we need to scale back, push non-proliferation treaties. My sense is that they will both be *war* presidents and that dismays me.   "War" presidents are given and take extra powers not approved of by the public in peacetime.

We have to change the mindset.  BO isn't getting it.  HC might be. 

lentigines

11:11 pm EST

Seborrheic Keratoses on their who-who

11:15 PM EST

This is one of the main reasons why I'm supporting Barack for president in 2008, rather than Hillary --

-- I'm looking for someone to break through the walls, the barriers, the close-mindedness, the "no, you make the first move!", mindset that has plagued America for decades upon decades

-- Hillary is just mouthing an old, safe idea of continuing the economic/political embargo on Cuba:

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=5842704&version=5&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

Clinton, Obama Disagree on Whether to Meet with Cuba's New Leader Last Edited: Thursday, 21 Feb 2008, 7:58 PM CST

AUSTIN, Texas  --  Democratic presidential contender Hillary Rodham Clinton said Thursday night she would not sit down with Raul Castro until he implements political reforms in Cuba, but rival Barack Obama said he favored a meeting without preconditions.

...

HRCs closing statement was very similar to words John Edwards spoke  in a debate.

11:17 PM EST

Tonight's debate has not done anything to change my mind about my support of Obama for president -- in fact, it only reinforced it more.

Good night everyone.

Well, the MoveOn team shouldn't expect a state dinner.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

might get one though in an Obama White House, that day is going to come

MSNBC (Jonathan Alter): Obama won.

Hotline – On Call: …Barack Obama wins the night -- and the momentum in his direction continues.

Atlantic (Marc Ambinder): … The Debate Belongs To Obama LINK 

TIME (Mark Halperin): Mark Halperin’s Grades:  Obama B+, Clinton B

NBC (Chuck Todd) : …Obama set the tone LINK

CNN (Donna Brazile): …And look, Barack Obama tonight was exceptional- he was presidential, he was poised, he was calm. He had the poetry, but he also had the prose. He put the substance ahead of, you know, perhaps some of the rhetorical flourishes that he's capable of giving. He was good; so, you can’t deny him that.

CNN (Gloria Borger): …Tonight, you saw Barack Obama as a very credible commander in chief.

Politico (Ben Smith): Obama has come prepared to talk about substance, and offers detailed personal anecdotes, not more abstract oration, for most of his opening statement, before pivoting to the question of who can unify the country to get it done. LINK

CNN (David Gergen): … Barack Obama is dramatically better as a debater than he was a few months ago. I thought he was excellent.

The blogs are abuzzing that Hillary's moment (closing) was somewhat plagiarized from Edwards and her hubby.

the rest of the circle that is missing from Hillary's empathy for our war wounded, is the sense of responsibility for sending them to war

I can't quite put a finger on it, because it is too personal a trait with people; but I want my candidate to accept what a heavy burden it is to be President because lives are in your hands, dig down and accept that responsibility, and then reveal to us before we vote where you go in your heart when confronted with the tough calls

we have people hollering for separation of church and state which makes that a hard discussion because faith shares that inner space in most people so sharing seems to cross a public private line

Hillary is a private person so doesn't go there often, and maybe it goes to the personal betrayals she has suffered as a spouse that has created that wall that makes it remarkable when she breaches it

I still think she has it in her to be a good President, that in that heart of hearts has the right stuff, but I don't think we will ever get to know, part of it being her inability to open up, but mostly the lousy campaign team that has been managing her message. 

An Echo from Hillary. I could care less that she borrowed some lines. However, she attacked Barack for the same thing. Sheesh.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0...

may they run up a La Cross coo-lee and freeze the tip of their who-who

only to realize the damage come their pre-shower prep.

genital herpes

30.

seashell :-)
Thu, 02/21/08

....We have to change the mindset. BO isn't getting it. HC might be.

===========================

And how does her "yes" vote for the resolution to label Iran's army "terrorists" tell you she's changing the mindset? It seems like the "same old, same old" from 2002 Iraq vote, IMO. Obama wasn't in town to vote, but at least said he would have voted against it.

43. Exactly, Phil. I think the Veterans saw through that line. I've been watching clips tonight - I only watched the beginning of the debate in real time. But Hillary is one who is partially responsible for sending these people into Iraq to get maimed. All that emotion but she's missing the apology...My husband is a veteran and he was not impressed.

30.

seashell :-)
Thu, 02/21/08

Reply to this

"For the Presidential campaign, it is not ferocity of the fighter that will matter, it is the intelligence of the fighter that will make the difference."

Fred, I think we need both.
=====================================

Wrong. We just need brains. If being ferocious is the smart way to act in a given situation, then maybe it is, but that's not always the case.

We always need political intelligence, to tell when or when not to be ferocious.

I think Obama understands that. Kerry did not.

An Echo from Hillary. I could care less that she borrowed some lines. However, she attacked Barack for the same thing. Sheesh.

From the beginning until now, Hillary and her campaign can't even smear competently. 

JFK "plagarized" FDR when he said we have only to fear, fear itself. Nobody seems to mind that JFK's saying it gets most of the credit.

Probably because more people got it on video tape with JFK and the quality was better.

mary vb

those hospitals shouldn't have to be built

A President should always be working to avoid war. I'm not quite able to articulate what makes that inner core that Obama reveals to me his strongest argument why he should be the nations next Commander in Chief, but you get a clearer look at it in his campaign than you do Hillary.

Lynyrd Skynyrd - The Ballad of Curtis Lowe        http://hypem.com/track/491438

Yo Curtus!  Who ya votin' fo'?  Som'n' useless?  Pick it for me, Curtus. 

we are compiling quite a list of curses

may the next election not be decided by the Jay Walk All Stars, but close elections always are

we need a blow out

Does anybody remember what a "pit bull" George Stephanopolous was as Clinton's campaign manager? Then he abruptly quit the Clintons, for unknown reasons.

Anyone know anything?

Night folks ;-)

Don't pay no never-mind to the negatives.

"know your values and" speak your mind.

http://hypem.com/track/418161        Maria Muldaur - Midnight At The Oasis

Does anybody remember what a "pit bull" George Stephanopolous was as Clinton's campaign manager? Then he abruptly quit the Clintons, for unknown reasons.

Stephanopoulos signed on with the Democratic presidential campaign of Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton, as Clinton's deputy campaign manager for communications. After Clinton's victory in 1992, Stephanopoulos became one of the new president's most trusted aides; during Clinton's first term, Stephanopoulos served as the senior advisor to the president for policy and strategy. He was involved in the development of major policy initiatives during Clinton's first term, most notably crime legislation, affirmative action, and the notoriously unsuccessful health care plan spearheaded by Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Shortly after Clinton's reelection in 1996, Stephanopoulos resigned from Clinton's team, citing stress, fatigue, and depression. After his resignation, Stephanopoulos moved to New York City, where he works as a professor of government at Columbia University and a politicalcommentator and analyst for ABC News. 

Nobody seems to mind that JFK's saying it gets most of the credit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No way, Jose. Find me the quote. Please.

stubbed toes, broken ankles, arthritic knees

Rachel Maddow says that Democratic voters love both of these two candidates.

Rachel needs to take a break from talking for 5 minutes and read some blogs. 

Night, Paine ~~ Under the wing

JFK "plagarized" FDR when he said we have only to fear, fear itself.

Never heard of JFK saying that. As puddle asks, please provide the quote. 

55.

Sitka
================

Thanks for the google. Fatigue, stress, and depression? Huh? Sounds like between Bill's womanizing and Hillary's demands, he went bonkers. LOL - just kidding.

Cindy McCain's  clenched jaw and contorted face was my picture of the day as her husband parsed his words in the best Clintonian form. does rove work for Huckabee now? 

New thread ..... with Donna Edwards words.


Lord nose where this will land.

NEW THREAD

I must say I'm warming up to both of them.

Keep the blog up. I agree with the free speech dictum. After all you are trying to grapple with Progressive Values and they should be included in the discussion however lousy Terry answered the question. This blog tends to avoid that discussion, better at sniping as a "value" I guess. Back up and look at the whole picture, what values do you believe in, are they reflected in these candidates. I guess winning is the most important Democratic "value", or at least being on the right side of an issue. But righteousness is not well defined enough to use as a value here, one person's righteousness is another's hell, but I digress.

I for one, would not support a Republicrat or a Democrepub. I want to see someone who speaks to values that are going to serve as the foundation for a vision of how we can live together to solve serious problems facing our communities and our world. The Obama camp seems to come the closest to this, though the militarist pandering in the debate was a disappointment. But then someone else(Conservative values) have framed that discussion and Demos have refused to fight it head on. Oh well, maybe next election, we can take on fear mongering and safety.

Too late, I know.  But, I can't figure out why they'd ask for the video to be taken down.  'Tis a puzzlement.

monica

 I think the reason they wanted it taken down was that it put Terry in a bad light.  Especially with the comments at the end of the clip from attendees..  I'm only speculating, since they didn't say exactly why.   They said the longer clip without the edited comments was fine..  

I think it was a bit odd for them to even dare asking for it to be removed.. since it's wanting to censor.  

 edwin