Howard Dean is first, as is optimism.

Malcontents to the corner and try to keep it down over there.

Denise, WHICH corner?  I don't want to caucus with the wrong bunch of malcontents. ;-)

Oh you know them donna - they swoop in, leave a stain, and then leave. Like pigeons.

I'm in donna's corner. are you with us Denise?

It is clear by the fact of their election that their peers have bestowed upon them the responsiblity of representation

which is also true of members of Congress who are super delegates

 once in Denver they are equals

Pledged delegates reflect the preferences of the voters, but are not actually legally bound to vote for the candidate they are pledged for. However, since candidates may remove delegates who they feel may be disloyal, pledged delegates generally vote for the candidate they represent. In 2008, a total of 3,253 pledged delegates will be awarded through the primary process.

So, contrary to what Phil claims, they are not free to do as they please -- as uberdelegates are. Hence, they are not "equals."

In addition, there are a total of 795 unpledged delegates (known as superdelegates) who are free to vote for any Democratic presidential candidate at the convention. Superdelegate votes are given equal weight to the votes of pledged delegates. In 2008, the superdelegates include 220 members of the U.S. House of Representatives, 48 senators, including the District of Columbia's two shadow senators, 31 state and territorial governors, 397 members of the Democratic National Committee, 23 distinguished party leaders, and 76 others. They represent approximately 20 percent of the total 4,048 delegates.

And, contrary to Phil's claim that uberdelegates are elected public officials, 496 of them are not.

youppers and poopers?

let's caucus with Denise, donna

sitka, you get to have your very own corner. ;-)  

Phil, I hope you can make it to Deanfest in August.  Denise and I will be there, you know.

all but a handful of super delegates appointed by the National Chair have been elected

sitka, you get to have your very own corner. ;-) 

I'll just keep going from one to the other as circumstances require. 

once credentialed and seated at the convention all delegates are equals

<>all but a handful of super delegates appointed by the National Chair have been elected

<>496 is "a handful"?  C'mon Phil. You're twisting yourself into pretzel trying justify anti-democracy.

DNC members are elected

make sure you caucus for Obama...he ain't McCain and he ain't Hillary.

once credentialed and seated at the convention all delegates are equals

The way you play games with words, you should have been a lawyer -- albeit a bad one. 

Pledged delegates are not going to wheel and deal for their votes like uberdelegates and you know it. They are ordinary people who will stick to their pledges. But if they do sell or switch them like the ubers, the system is even more corrupt than we thought.

I plan on being at Deanfest if I am not headed for Denver donna.

DNC members are elected 

Not by the people.

pledged delegates have the same authority to change their minds as would a Presidential Elector for the Electoral College

they are normally elected because of their known integrity to do what is right

and they are elected to represent their peers

as are the super delegates

sitka

"pledged" delegates are not elected by the people either

as are the super delegates

We 've already established that ubers aren't elected as delegates. They chosen by inside party rules.

When I and everyone else voted  in our primary or caucus, not one of us voted for a uber.

"pledged" delegates are not elected by the people either

Excuse me? Now you're saying that when we went to vote it was a meaningless charade? That's your lamest defense of corruption yet. 

when you went to vote you operated within party rules that allocated a predetermined amount of the delegates from each Congressional District to be allocated by the preference of the voters to have individuals to be elected by a different process to be approved by the Presidential candidate of their preference 

representative democracy with a major component being the action of citizens on a designated day varying by state

to have a say in allocating a portion of the delegates to the nominating convention

their preference registered in that allocation

Sorry I was playing around with my iPhone.

Yes I'm here Phil

Yoopers! Dey are da best, you betcha

You betcha, I second that, Denise.

Off for a while. 

Did you ever see Escanaba in Da Moonlight, Denise?  I've got a copy on DVD.

I was on the ballot as a pledged presidential delegate in Ohio once. We voted for the delegates rather than the candidate.

poopers and yoopers

I'm measuring snow here by which grade of kids disappears into the canyons where there used to be sidewalks.

we are having a fifth grade winter here Denise

when you went to vote you operated within party rules that allocated a predetermined amount of the delegates from each Congressional District to be allocated by the preference of the voters to have individuals to be elected by a different process to be approved by the Presidential candidate of their preference

In ordinary English, we elected delegates to represent the preference of the majority (do you even realize you contradict yourself from post to post?) -- that's representative democracy.

Uberdelegates were voted upon by no one in any primary or caucus --  that's insider party politics. I can only guess you like it that way because you're an insider yourself.

I was on the ballot as a pledged presidential delegate in Ohio once. We voted for the delegates rather than the candidate.

Representative democracy.

No one gets to vote for Uberdelegates. They are chosen by the party machine.

We voted for the delegates rather than the candidate.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Has Ohio had the other half of the system already this year such that the delegate slate is decided before the allocation vote?. about half the states operate in that manner, many are like Iowa and elect individuals, there still has to be an election process to select the individuals on the slates

it really isn't much different than from how DNC members are elected in most states

The candidate had to sign the list of his pledged delegates, and we were required to vote for him. I don't remember for sure, but I think we could switch after the first vote.

Has Ohio had the other half of the system already this year such that the delegate slate is decided before the allocation vote?

Now you've gone from telling how the system works to asking how it works. 

No one gets to vote for Uberdelegates. They are chosen by the party machine.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It would be nice if you knew what you were talking about so we could have a discussion. there are always elections involved and usually very competitive ones, it is from the part of the party that keeps things together from election to election whoever the candidate du juor, and you do have to be a Democrat to take part

Escanaba in the Moonlight? No I have not, Pat. Now I have to :)

If you had been following along you would know that it varies state by state.

I love snow but that's too much, Phil. My mom's tired of it, too. She misses her walks which I know has kept her motor running these past 87 years. I try to get her to come out here for the winter but she'd miss her bingo buddies.

It would be nice if you knew what you were talking about so we could have a discussion.

It would be nice if you realized you contradict yourself every time you post. But that's the only way to defend the indefensible. 

there are always elections involved and usually very competitive ones, it is from the part of the party that keeps things together from election to election whoever the candidate du juor, and you do have to be a Democrat to take part

When most people say "election" they don't mean "inside game." And Uberdelegates aren't even chosen directly by insider voting. They are given a free pass by rules voted upon by the insiders themselves.

rundown heels

The candidate had to sign the list of his pledged delegates, and we were required to vote for him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

not quite, no one can be "required" to do anything in this party we are all free actors, a "pledged" delegate is just that someone who has pledged that they will support a candidate who has that loyalty affirmed by a signature that says the candidate trusts that individual

our Dean pledged candidate voted for Kerry in Boston after Howard asked her to

If you had been following along you would know that it varies state by state.

If you had been following along with your own posts you'd know that you've speaking as if it were a universal system.  But as soon you hit a dead end with that argument, you changed it.

puddle.....lol....I'm in iPhone purgatory right now cuz I do see da light

Phil is correct, Sitka.

DNC members are indeed elected via my county committee's members (to the state committee) & @the state convention, by delegates.

Not appointed.

Bloggers tend to have attention spans of a mosquito--pls. read the rules; & know who's supposed to be representing you in AZ.. Vote them out, accordingly.

not quite, no one can be "required" to do anything in this party we are all free actors,

Phillogic has twisted back upon itself and is once again at the same lame beginning. I see no point in debunking it all over again.  Just go back to top of the thread.

none of these contests are elections

they are allocations, that is why we are keeping delegate counts, not voter totals

At the time, the local State campaign Comm. chose the delegates. We wanted to make sure that nobody was going to bolt after the first vote, so we made sure we knew them all well. Then we mailed the list to the candidate, he signed it and we turned it in to the BE for printing on the ballot. The name of the candidate appeared on the ballot, but no place to vote for him.

Another interesting thing, if the candidate had not chosen a vP, we got to pick someone to appear on the ballot as a stand-in for Ohio. I got a political science prof to run. He was good at speeches and Press relations etc.

I thought the Rahm Emanuel clip was very DLC insider humor meant to make us think - oh yeah, Rahm...humm...and frankly I hope we don't go that way.

Host: Keith Olbermann

Topics/Guests:

• 2008 ELECTION: Dana Milbank, Washington Post national political reporter and MSNBC political analyst; Pat Buchanan, MSNBC Political Analyst and author of "Day of Reckoning: How Hubris, Ideology and Greed are Tearing America Apart"; Chuck Todd, NBC News political director; Rachel Maddow, Err American radio host and MSNBC political analyst
• "AMERICAN IDOL": Maria Milito, Q104.3 radio host

The last opening spiel of the week was bellowed by Keith Olbermann: Clinton v Obama! The McCain Mutiny! "Mister" Bush lies! [Ding!] Oh, and the long overdue American Idol segment! It's casual Friday at Olbermann Watch.

#5: After Bill Jefferson Clinton criticized Keith Oralmann, Fat Ass struck back, calling him a "Bill in a china shop". Reference to Senator "O-buy-ma"! Hill runs an attack ad on Barack. Monkeymann moaned about his "deep personal affection" for Hillary and B.J. (watch out, remember how he treated his "personal friend" John Gibson!), but they sound "angry". Olby pimped out Milbank, minus musty mufti, to parrot his spin, only he contradicted a snickering Keith re a McCain criticism. Still he got Great Thanksed.

Another dig at the Clintons ("contradictory statements") to kick off yet another discussion of super delegates. Merkle knocked the Clinton campaign again for calling 20-some states "insignificant". Then another elbow at the "tone deaf" B.J. Clinton and his "undemocratic" statements! Man, don't you dare criticize Edward R Olbermann, or he will come down on you like a ton o' bricks. Todd nattered but was not Great Thanksed.

#4: In discussing the GOP race "Man on Fan" Olbermann found a way to blame UBL's 9/11 attack on "Mister" Bush '41. Paleo Buchanan was there to assess 41's endorsement of McCain (an interesting choice since Buchanan was a mortal enemy of 41 and even ran against him--not disclosed to the gullible cretins who dote on The Hour of Spin). He was not Great Thanksed.

After comparing "Mister" Bush to Genghis Khan, Herr Olbermahn served up #3: More FISA propaganda. Bush lied! [Ding!] Bush lied! [Ding!] Lied! [Ding!] Collaborators! (Nazi imagery.) Oralmann needed someone who would also serve as a human Xerox machine for OlbySpin, so he pimped out national security and legal expert comedian Rachel Maddow, who declared of "national security threats": they "do not exist". Only on The Hour of Spin.

#2: Empty. #1: Idol. In the Media Matters Minute, Herr Olbermahn returned to feed his most ravenous Olbsession: the eeevil O'Reilly (Blue Blog Source: Hillary Clinton's Media Matters, straight from Brock's website to Oralmann's teleprompter), making this attack #415. And anyone else who dares to speak criticism of Messiah Obama shall be given the same treatment on OlbyPlanet.

If it's Friday, it's our weekly assessment of Krazy Keith's masculinity. Even though this was only a four day week, Monkeymann attacked Fox and other broadcasters 15 times. Olby's source (Hillary Clinton's Media Matters) criticized (MS)NBC 12 times, but Keithy protected his corporate masters with zero criticisms. That makes this week's Olbermann Manhood Quotient: -52 [Cruise limp]. Tonight's MisterMeter reading: 11 [DANGER!]

And that's The Hour of Spin for this, the 650th day since the declaration that "Karl Rove will be indicted".

DNC members are indeed elected via my county committee's members

It isn't democracy if they are not elected by the people. 

I thought the Rahm Emanuel clip was very DLC insider humor meant to make us think - oh yeah, Rahm...humm...and frankly I hope we don't go that way

It was like one of those celebrity roasts where they make fun of someone to build them up.  

When the rightwads attack Olbermann, it's like throwning Brer Rabbit into the briar patch.

Democrats did away with winner take all.

mainefem you need to get your butt to Dulles in August. Call me and we'll talk.

Our state DNC reps. have to run a campaign with state convention delegates, Sitka.

 They are never "appointed." 

cooties (do I repeat myself?)

I'm in >^<vcorner

Today a lady/woman who works part-time at Stop n Shop 'round these parts

told me that the manager has reduced the hours of part-timers to 15 hours to cut costs.

She no longer shops at the grocery store which presently employs her.  She can't take a $50 per week reduction in earnings.  She won't shop at such a place.

Stop n Shop wants to see those making $10per hr walk.

$8 per hour will fit their plan.

My car died--had it hauled off/junked last night, Denise.

Too expensive to pay the labor to fix it.

I'm in Plan B>Z mode. 

I'm on "hold" for the time being, but thank you!

Rather than argue, why don't you research AZ's state convention rules?

I've suffiently pointed out that superdelegates are not chosen by the people -- a viewpoint shared by many or most. Only those with an inside interest  in party politics would bother to employ the sophistry necessary to claim otherwise.

web-like lip spittle

Yay! Subway's scheduled for DeanFest!! That settles it. Gotta go buy tickets!

[halitosis]

Wisconsin is running a George Clinton special on public TV  funkadelic

bbl

Phil....

The pledged candidates were selected at a meeting of the candidates campaign comm. The Dem Party had nothing to do with it. They were totally by-passed, which was a good thing. It would have been like turning over the lists to Rahm Emanuel today. They would have been "lost".

Ugh, so it died totally, huh mainefem? Bummah

Well we'll think of something; we have time.

Oooohh....Phil is a Bootsy fan. Way cool

Great news puddle about Subway! And of course you're coming knew that :)

GERD

Led Zeppelin - Thank You    for employing me, mr corporapetion man.

http://hypem.com/track/487562

The delegates to the National nominating convention will choose the representative of the Democratic Party for President. 

I invite you all to take part in choosing your delegates, and if you are inclined the super delegates are elected too, and having a vote in those elections is a satisfying path of citizenship as well.

Oh Paine my favorite Zep tune :)

thanky

It would've cost me equally, or more than KBB private sale value to fix it, Denise.

It didn't "die," per se--just reached the point whereby someone who can fix it would be better off with it.

Didn't serve any purpose to me, while parked outside w/tons of snow & ice on and around it! 

I had to decide whether it was "cost-effective," or not to keep.

...and still have a 1998 vehicle (142K mi.); which would continue to $500.00++ me to death (mostly labor costs).

I went thru this defensive nonsense w/a blogger from ME, Phil.

 She's too effin' lazy to gather nomination sigs (she's a delegate to the state convention); and also wants to go to Denver.

 Not gonna happen.

She hadn't read the rules, natch.

Nor is she a member of her local or county committees!  Duh. 

Then, she didn't want to run for election (which is the only way she'll get to Denver).

Arguing just for the sake of it--really pisses me off!

 Claimed it was an "insider" thing...no, it isn't. 

new thread

A Good Day for the Constitution

Dear Julie,

Yesterday the House of Representatives took several historic steps towards protecting our system of checks and balances. First, by a vote of 223 to 32, the House passed resolutions referring criminal contempt citations for former White House Counsel Harriet Miers and White House Chief of Staff Josh Bolten, as well as authorizing civil actions against them should the Justice Department refuse to prosecute. Second, we did not succumb to the White House political pressure concerning the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

Yesterday's contempt vote upheld the simple Constitutional principle that no one is above the law. If an ordinary citizen could not ignore a subpoena without facing severe consequences, the same must hold true for the White House.

As the morning's papers covered this story, many of them recount the Judiciary Committee investigation that began a year ago. They talk of the fired U.S. Attorneys who testified, the thousands of pages of documents produced by the Department of Justice, and of the subpoenas ignored by the White House.

I hope that as you read those stories, you will remember that the path to today's contempt vote did not begin with just a subpoena, or a hearing, or even the firings in December, 2006. Rather, it began with the Bush Administration's politicization of Justice and its refusal to submit to congressional oversight. I commend my 232 colleagues who joined me in voting to hold the Bush White house accountable and who stood up for the rule of law.

I also want to commend the Democratic Leadership for standing up to the White House yesterday and refusing to succumb to political pressure concerning the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Last August we allowed ourselves to be jammed by the Senate and the White House. Yesterday, we stood up in the face of the pressure and let the President know that we intend to do our jobs as legislators and not hastily pass the flawed Senate bill with retroactive legal immunity for the telecommunications firms.

The White House, of course, has complained bitterly about the contempt vote as they have with many oversight actions Congress has taken. I have linked to some articles that show breadth of this bluster.

Much more remains to be done, but this week, we made real progress. With your help, we all made a difference, and the nation and our constitution are stronger for it. Thank you.

Thank you again for your continued support for a better democracy.


Your Friend,

John Conyers, Jr.

[bad flavored coffee]

I invite you all to take part in choosing your delegates, and if you are inclined the super delegates are elected too, and having a vote in those elections is a satisfying path of citizenship as well.

Phil In Wonderland. 

Tales of the politically wierd.......

Waxman regrets Clemens hearing

House Oversight Committee chairman Henry Waxman regrets holding the hearings regarding former trainer Brian McNamee's allegations of steroid use by Roger Clemens, the New York Times reports.

Waxman said of Wednesday's four-hour hearing before the committee, "I think Clemens and McNamee both came out quite sullied, and I didn't think it was a hearing that needed to be held in order to get the facts out about the Mitchell report.

"I'm sorry we had the hearing. I regret that we had the hearing. And the only reason we had the hearing was because Roger Clemens and his lawyers insisted on it."

Clemens' lead counsel, Rusty Hardin, called Waxman's statements "unbelievable, disingenuous and outrageous."

"We didn't think any good would come out of having a food fight with [McNamee]," Hardin said.

"He is the one who created this circus in the first place," Hardin said of Waxman. Hardin told the newspaper that Clemens and his lawyers asked Waxman several weeks ago to call off the hearings but that once the depositions had been taken, the Clemens side had no choice but to proceed, fearing the committee would turn the depositions into a hostile written report.

What happened to the old Waxman who hauled the tobacco execs before his committee and forced them to lie under oath? A trillion dollar boondoggle in Iraq and Afghanistan and many millions wasted and stolen in the Katrina non-recovery to investigate and hold accountable, and he's hosting a food fight about baseball? 

ROVE ALERT

those of you agitating to over turn adopted rules on super delegates are playing into the hands of those that want to over turn the rules on Florida and Michigan

Obama will lose delegates in that exchange not gain them.

Just to inform you that you may well get Clinton support for handcuffing super delegates because throw the rules out and you will see the real powerbrokers gathering.