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Mythbusting Canadian Health Care - Part 2

Written by: Kevin Shaw on Feb 13, 2008 1:06 PM EST

Linked to groups: PA Single Payer Healthcare Action Committee

By Sara Robinson On ourfuture.org

In the previous post, I looked at ten of the most common myths that get bandied about whenever Americans drag Canada into their ongoing discussions about healthcare. In this follow-up, I'd like to address a few of the larger assumptions that Americans make about health care that are contradicted by the Canadian example; and in the process offer some more general thinking (and perhaps talking) points that may be useful in the debates ahead.

Government-run health care is inherently less efficient -- because governments themselves are inherently less efficient.
If anything could finally put the lie to this old conservative canard, the disaster that is our health care system is Exhibit A.

America spends about 15% of its GDP on health care. Most other industrialized countries (all of whom have some form of universal care, either single-payer or entirely government-run) spend about 11-12%. Canada spends about 8-9% -- and most of the problems within their system come out of the fact that it's chronically underfunded compared to those other nations. If they spent what the UK or Germany do, those problems would mostly vanish.

Any system that has people spending more and getting less is, by definition, not efficient. And these efficiency leaks are, almost entirely, due to private greed. There is no logical way that a private system can pay eight-figure CEO compensation packages, turn a handsome a profit for shareholders, and still be "efficient." In fact, in order to deliver those profits and salaries, the American system has built up a vast, Kafkaesque administrative machinery of approval, denial, and fraud management, which inflates the US system's administrative costs to well over double that seen in other countries -- or even in our own public systems, including Medicare and the VA system.

Not incidentally: one of the benefits of single-payer health care is that it largely eliminates the entire issue of "fraud." You can only "cheat" a system that already views its primary business as rationing and withholding care. In Canada, where the system is set up to deliver health care instead of profits, and medical access is considered a right, this whole oversight machinery is far cheaper and more compact. In general, the system trusts doctors and patients to make the right choices the first time. As a result, people generally don't have to lie, cheat, and grovel to get the system to deliver the care they need. They just go and get it -- and walk out without a moment's dread about the bills.

Shareholder profit, inflated CEO salaries, and top-heavy administration -- all of which serve to work against the delivery of care, not facilitate it -- are anti-efficiencies that siphon off 20-25% of America's total health care spending. These are huge sums; yet it's mostly money down a gold-plated rathole. In the end, it doesn't provide a single bed, pay a single nurse or doctor, or treat a single patient.

We'll have rationed care
Don't look now: but America does ration care. And it does it in the most capricious, draconian, and often dishonest way possible.

Mostly, the US system rations care by simply eliminating large numbers of people from the system due to an inability to pay. Last year, one-quarter of all Americans didn't go to a doctor when they needed one because they couldn't afford it. Nearly that many skipped getting a test, treatment, prescription, or follow-up appointment recommended by a doctor. In Canada, those same numbers are in the 4-5% range; in the UK, 2-3%. Also: nearly 20% of all Americans had a hard time paying a medical bill last year; and these stresses now trigger over half of all personal bankruptcies in the country.

Furthermore, nominally having health insurance is no guarantee against financial ruin, as Sicko amply illustrated. Being cut off or denied by your insurance company is rationing, too. And there are vast numbers of fairly well-off Americans -- many of them middle-aged, and too young for Medicare -- who have pre-existing conditions that render them uninsurable at any price. They're one heart attack, one diabetic event, or one bad turn away from financial disaster. Please don't insult these people by telling them that the American system doesn't ration care.

Another persistent (and ridiculously mendacious) rationing myth about the Canadian system is that old people are cut off from treatment and left to die. I've never heard about a single case of this in Canada; but it happens routinely to Americans on Medicare and many private policies, which have strict limits on how long you can stay in the hospital with an acute illness. When the benefits run out, ready or not, they send you home. If you die, you die. The Canadian plan has no such limits: you stay for as long as you need to. But in the US, these limits fit the very definition of "rationed care."

Effectively shutting one-quarter of the population out of the medical system entirely, and putting many of the rest on short rations, certainly does make things so much nicer for those happy few who are still in it. In fact, Americans have these missing millions to thank for their system's impressively short wait times. Only 4% of American have to wait more than six months for non-elective surgeries, while 14-15% of Canadian and Britons do. (Don't blame this on government care, though: in Germany and the Netherlands, the number is closer to 2%.) When conservatives start bellowing about Canada's terrifying wait times (which, by the way, are carefully triaged: it's rare for people to die waiting, though it happens), we need to remind them that there are 75 million Americans who have been wait-listed forever. If my friend's Aunt Millie gets her emergency hip surgery today because I'm willing to hobble along for an extra couple months before getting my knee surgery -- well, for any morally serious person, that choice should be a complete no-brainer.

You can't have medical innovation without the incentives provided by the free market.
As in the US, Canada's government funds major medical research that has led to a continuous stream of new medical breakthroughs [1]. (And as this link shows, the rate of innovation didn't slow down in the least when Canada moved to single-payer in the 1960s.) All of the country's medical schools are located within public research universities. The university that houses my local medical school, the University of British Columbia, ranked ninth in North America last year -- in league with UC, Stanford, and other powerhouses -- in total public and private research grants received by its labs. Among other things, it leads the way in genetics (David Suzuki is emeritus faculty), and stem-cell research (having attracted a handsome roster of American scientists whose research was thwarted by the political situation at home).

Because the Canadian health care system is driven by delivering care instead of profits, the focus of research is sometimes different -- and often wider-ranging. While there's plenty of pursuit of patents and innovations, there's also considerable research put into questioning whether new treatments are really more effective than older ones; and in pursuing possible treatments that may not be patentable by anyone. The system is focused first on what works; and after that, on what might make someone some money.

Single-payer health care will make America less competitive.
I can't believe people still have the gall to argue this point, but apparently, they do. There are several reasons this is flat-out wrong:

Jobs, Jobs, Jobs -- It's no secret that public health care is making Canada a more attractive business environment for large manufacturers, who typically have very high insurance overhead. Toyota and GM have both moved plants to Canada in recent years, in large part to avoid the spiraling costs of insuring American workers. (Toyota also cited Canada's better-educated workers, but that's another issue for another day.) As long as $900 of every car GM makes is going to supply health care to the people who make it, the US's current system of employer-based health care is going to continue to drive skilled jobs out of the country.

A Smarter, More Entreprenurial Workforce -- Being relieved of insurance worries also makes individual citizens more competitive. How would your life choices change if you didn't have to worry about health care? Would you go back to school and get your PhD in lepidoptery? Start a blog -- or a small business? Work part-time and travel? Tell your boss where he can stick it? Spend a few years at home with your kids?

Countries with universal coverage free up their citizens to take advantage of personal development opportunities that, in the long run, stimulate the economy and create a more skilled, traveled, educated, and fulfilled workforce. Americans, on the other hand, routinely stay chained to jobs they hate -- and are forced to pass up on chances to expand their horizons and their fortunes -- because they can't afford to jeopardize their health care coverage. Our health care mess has reached a point where it jeopardizes not only our lives, but also our liberty and our ability to pursue happiness -- as well as the long-term strength of the economy as a whole.

Increased Financial and Social Capital -- When families are bankrupted by medical bills, or are thrown into poverty when a working member is disabled because they can't afford proper care, or simply break down and fall apart under the stress of debt and illness, it's not long before the country's entire social fabric begins to show the wear and tear -- along with the sense of optimism and the common good required for a democracy to function.

Part of what makes a country competitive is its own commitment to the common good. I've often been impressed by the very tangible sense of civic pride and shared effort my Canadian neighbors have in the fact that they're taking the best possible care of their own, regardless of status, age, or ethnicity. Every encounter with the medical system reminds them that they're all in this together. A medical system that routinely drives families into bankruptcy or divorce court is actively destroying, rather than adding to, the essential social capital that makes the whole society function.

No Deferred Maintenance -- Decades of foregone medical care are starting to catch up with Americans. We're seeing serious declines on many fronts: infant mortality, lifespan, cancer rates, heart disease rates, and increased diabetes. On most of the major markers of public health, America is nowhere near the top tier anymore. In some areas, there are a few small former Communist countries doing better than we are.

Business relies on healthy workers who aren't distracted by their own illness or that of a family member. America's uninsured, increasingly unhealthy workforce is in no position to compete on equal terms with the strong, healthy workers of other countries who are getting the care they deserve.

We have more important matters to tend to -- like national security and the war.
Getting everyone insured is, unequivocally, a clear matter of national security.

Our every-man-for-himself attitude toward health care is a security threat on a par with unsecured ports. In Canada, people go see the doctor if they're sick for more than a day or two. It was this easy access to early treatment, along with the much tighter public health matrix that enables doctors to share information quickly, that allowed the country's health care system to detect the 2003 SARS epidemics in Toronto and Vancouver while they were still very localized, act within hours to stop them before the disease spread any further, and track down and treat exposed people before they got too sick to be helped. In both cases, the system worked flawlessly. The epidemic was stopped within days and quashed entirely in under a month, potentially saving of millions of lives.

In the U.S., that same epidemic might easily have gone unnoticed for critical days and weeks. If the first people to get sick were among those 75 million without adequate insurance, they probably would have toughed it out a few extra days before finally dragging their half-dead carcasses into an ER somewhere. Not only would they be much farther along in the course of the disease -- and thus at greater risk of death themselves -- every one of them could have infected dozens or even hundreds of other people in the meantime, accelerating the spread of the epidemic.

Worse: America's underfunded public health system might have taken several days to piece together the whole picture of an epidemic; and perhaps another week or two might have passed before the E. Coli conservatives in charge (having thrown out the science-based management plans thoughtfully developed by the bureaucracy) cooked up some kind of half-assed ideology-driven decision about how to proceed. (It would, of course, involve spectacular amounts of lying to the public.) By that point, tens of millions could have been infected, leading to a death toll that would make 9/11 and Katrina look like minor statistical blips.

Think about superbugs and the ongoing waves of immunological imports from the world's swamps and jungles. Think about terrorists with bioweapons. And then think again about the undeniable fact that every single underinsured American is a gaping hole in the safety net that protects us all from a catastrophic epidemic. This really is one of those cases in which none of us are safe as long as even one of us is left at risk. And from a purely economic standpoint: would you want to invest in a country where there was a significant risk that an epidemic or a bio-attack, managed by incompetent officials, might force you to shut down your business at a moment's notice?

As for the war: Bush's Folly will generate upwards of half a million veterans, many of whom will require some kind of sustaining care for the rest of their lives. VA funding ebbs and flows with the national political will, and veterans often fall behind other priorities. But if they can enter the same health care system every other American depends on, then we can only forget their interests by forgetting our own as well.

I feel a lot better knowing my taxes are taking care of my fellow Canadians rather than buying bombs to drop on Iraqi towns, supporting a fully-equipped CIA gulag, or funding Baghdad pizza deliveries via Halliburton. It's hard to become a worldwide empire when you're putting half your tax revenue into hospitals and doctors, as Canada does. But, on the other hand, it's hard to insure your citizens when half your tax revenue is going to feed your war machine.

In a very real sense, America has chosen to secure its oil supply at the cost of its own citizens' health. The more we spend on the former, the less we have for the latter. And our own relative health -- both physical and economic -- is starting to show the consequences of that choice. Ultimately, all these things are connected: by making ourselves energy independent, we might not only make ourselves more secure, we'll also finally be able to invest in the kind of health care that will make us truly competitive in the world community.

The Bottom Line
In America, a lucky employee with gold-plated employer-based coverage may well get access to A-level care (though that level of coverage becoming rarer by the month, even among the professional classes). On the other hand, about 50 million under-insured Americans are barely scraping by with C or D-level care; and the nearly 50 million with no insurance at all get next to no care whatsoever. Worst of all: 18,000 Americans die every year due to lack of access to healthcare. That's one every 30 minutes, around the clock, every day of the year -- the equivalent death toll of six 9/11s every single year that passes.

In Canada, everybody gets at least B-level care, pretty consistently across the board -- and, on occasion, quite a bit better than that. You might not like those odds if you're one of the shrinking handful of Americans who's used to A-level care; but if that's not you, you'd be getting a much better deal in Canada.

The private sector has had 20 years to prove that it could deliver low-cost, quality care using those vaunted business-style efficiencies; and it has failed us utterly and completely. This fact should be the ultimate nail in the coffin of the old conservative canard that "the free market always does it better." If that was true, privatizing health care would have been the shining example that proved it once and for all. Instead, all we got was a colossally expensive national disaster that's denying full coverage to a third of the country --- and putting our health, competitiveness, financial and social capital, and national security at risk in the process. It's also devastating the aspirations of our entire middle class, which is being hollowed out by our current health policies.

A famous Hebrew prophet once advised his followers to take the log out of their own eyes before trying to remove the splinter from someone else's. As much as it hurts American pride to admit it, Canada and the rest of the industrialized world has us roundly beat on this one. Those who are so quick to criticize the Canadian system might be better off holding their fire until they've shown us they can do better. America, and the world, is waiting.

Campaign For America's Future

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By publius on Feb 14, 2008 2:09 PM EST

Voters who have yet to vote in their primary and the Deans are first

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By linda b on Feb 14, 2008 3:20 PM EST

okay, the house has passed the contempt bill and the rethugs walked out.

can you say, cry babies??

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By Annilow on Feb 14, 2008 3:28 PM EST

Clinton leading Obama in Ohio, Pennsylvania: poll

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/usa_politics_...

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By FRED from OR on Feb 14, 2008 3:32 PM EST
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By rich^kolker on Feb 14, 2008 3:34 PM EST

Just got an email from Jim Dean asking us to support the opponent of Leonard Boswell.  That's the same Leonard Boswell which Howard asked us to donate to back in 2004.

 

What's up?

 

2:52 ET 

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By FRED from OR on Feb 14, 2008 3:35 PM EST

52.

Michael Ellis
Thu, 02/14/08

Reply to this

Alot of attacking the Clintons by many of you Democrats, former Democrats, Republicans and Independents..........this may be justified but remember this, Bill Clinton stopped the Republican machine dead in its tracks in 1992 and thank God for that.....

======================

Wrong - Clinton AND Perot stopped the Republican machine. Clinton won with less than 50% of those who voted. Perot got 8% of those who voted. Had not the fiscal conservative ran, chances are most of those votes would've gone to Bush.

Hate to self-deprecate, but we'd be not fooling anybody but ourselves.

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By Monica Smith on Feb 14, 2008 2:47 PM EST

Well, I'd say that Bill Clinton is losing it.  Maybe early onset Altzheimer's is catching and his picked it up in the White House.

Some of his quotes:

 

Of his wife's recent travails, he said, "the caucuses aren't good for her. They disproportionately favor upper-income voters who, who, don't really need a president but feel like they need a change."

 

 

"I think she has been the underdog ever since Iowa," Clinton said. "She’s had, you know, a lot of the politicians, like Senator Kennedy, opposed to her. She’s had, the political press has avowedly played a role in this election. I've never seen this before."

He said they'd done well considering their slim budget. "We've gotten plenty of delegates on a shoestring," he said.

 

 Clinton said of the press, "they’ve been active participants in this election, and you know what the objective studies done. And they’ve, many of them are willing to be quoted on the record. But I don’t want to talk about the press. I want to talk about the people. That’s what’s wrong with this election, people trying to take this election away from the people."

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By FRED from OR on Feb 14, 2008 3:41 PM EST

3.

Annilow

...according to Quinnipiac University poll....

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who the heck is Quinnipiac University polling? Probably some student's senior project.

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By rich^kolker on Feb 14, 2008 3:44 PM EST

3.

Annilow

...according to Quinnipiac University poll....

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8.
FRED from Ashland OR
Thu, 02/14/08

who the heck is Quinnipiac University polling? Probably some student's senior project.

............................

Sorry, no, Quinnipiac is one of the many established pollsters out there.  Know what you're talking about before you take potshots. 

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By FRED from OR on Feb 14, 2008 3:44 PM EST
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By FRED from OR on Feb 14, 2008 3:44 PM EST

9.

rich^kolker
Thu, 02/14/08

========
sorry, my bad :)

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By Monica Smith on Feb 14, 2008 3:02 PM EST

Leonard Boswell did not live up to expectations.  We've been asking DFA to hold people accountable.  So, here we are.

Every election is a crap shot, except if you happen to be an infallible oracle.  LOL 

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By Monica Smith on Feb 14, 2008 3:09 PM EST
Thursday, February 14, 2008 Pregnant? Work for Catholics?
best to have an abortion

From THE POST-BULLETIN:

A 23-year-old unmarried teacher claims she was recently asked to resign from her job at a Catholic school after revealing that she is pregnant. Emily Prigge was in her first year of teaching fifth grade at St. Felix School in Wabasha when she found out she's expecting a baby. Prigge, now 15 weeks into her pregnancy, said she told the school principal about it last month.

"She said that I made the right decision in not having an abortion because that is what the Catholic church wants," Prigge said.

On Feb. 6, Prigge said, the principal and priest called a meeting with her where they asked for her resignation effective immediately.

Minnesota is an employment "at will" employment state, meaning an employer can fire any employee as long as that reason is not illegal. In Prigge's case, it's not possible to speculate whether she was wrongfully terminated, in part because "the case law is all over the place," said Elaine Hanson, enforcement supervisor at the Minnesota Department of Human Rights.

COMMENT: I correspond with Americans everyday. They seem an intelligent people, at least up to the level of the French or the Germans, if not quite the English. So, it's very difficult for me to get my head round the fact that they live in such a primitive society. No universal welfare, no employment protection to speak of and it's being run, at every level, by superstitious flat-earthers. 


American people, may I suggest that at this vote thing you do every few years, why not vote for something that you all want rather than what those obscenely rich, managing directors want. And if that doesn't work, you could always have yourself a revolution. Posted by MadPriest at 1:12 PM
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By Monica Smith on Feb 14, 2008 3:10 PM EST

Blog is crazy.  This should be #14.

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By Michael Ellis on Feb 14, 2008 4:05 PM EST

FRED from Ashland OR
Thu, 02/14/08
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Yes good point and thanks.............do you now that the ONLY Presidential election Ive predicted wrong was the 92 one?

Ive come up with a name for Obama supporters.........Obamanables...........you havent seen an arthropod running around here have ya?.......cheers

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By * rdorgan on Feb 14, 2008 4:07 PM EST
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By Pat in Colorado on Feb 14, 2008 3:46 PM EST

As my mother would say, "Come again?" Stopped the Republican machine in 1992?  Seems to me there was in 1994 a Republican Congress.  Seems to me not a lot got accomplished.  Not much happened with the environment; no universal health care, NAFTA, renting out the Lincoln bedroom, Enron an up and comer.  Seem to me the Right Wing grew stronger.

 

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By FRED from OR on Feb 14, 2008 4:40 PM EST

17.

* rdorgan
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staying positive - he cannot afford to go negative

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By Michael Ellis on Feb 14, 2008 4:41 PM EST
CONGRATULATIONS TO ALL THE KIDS WHO WERE BORN IN THE
1940's, 50's, 60's and 70's !!



First, we survived being born to mothers who smoked and/or drank while they carried us.

They took aspirin, ate blue cheese dressing, tuna from a tin, and didn't get tested for diabetes.

Then after that trauma, our baby cots were covered with bright coloured lead-based paints.

We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors or cabinets and when we rode our bikes, we had no helmets.

As children, we would ride in cars with no seat belts or air bags.

Riding in the back of a van - loose - was always great fun.

We drank water from the garden hosepipe and NOT from a bottle.

We shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle and NO ONE actually died from this.

We ate cakes, white bread and real butter and drank pop with sugar in it, but we weren't overweight because......

WE WERE ALWAYS OUTSIDE PLAYING!!


We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back when the streetlights came on.

No one was able to reach us all day................and we were O.K!


We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps and then ride down the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes. After running into the bushes a few times, we learned to solve the problem.


We did not have Playstations, Nintendo's, X-boxes, no video games at all, no 99 channels on SKY/cable, no video tape/DVD movies, no surround sound, no mobile phones, no text messaging, no personal computers, no Internet or Internet chat rooms..........



WE HAD FRIENDS - and we went outside and found them!


We fell out of trees, got cut, broke bones and teeth and there were no lawsuits from these accidents.

We played with worms and mud pies made from dirt, and the worms did not live in us forever.

We made up games with sticks and tennis balls and although we were told it would happen, we did not poke out any eyes.

We rode bikes or walked to a friend's house and knocked on the door or rang the bell, or just yelled for them!

Local teams had trials and not everyone made the team. Those who didn't had to learn to deal with disappointment. Imagine that!!

The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke the law was unheard of. They actually sided with the law!

This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers, problem solvers and inventors ever!

The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas.

We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned -


HOW TO DEAL WITH IT ALL!

And YOU are one of them!

CONGRATULATIONS!

You might want to share this with others who have had the luck to grow up as kids, before the lawyers and the government regulated our lives for our own good......and while you are at it, show this to your kids so they will know how brave their parents were.


Kind of makes you want to run through the house with scissors, doesn't it?!


PS -The BOLD type is because your eyes are shot at your age!
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By Phil Specht on Feb 14, 2008 4:41 PM EST
3
Leonard Boswell did not live up to expectations.  We've been asking DFA to hold people accountable.  So, here we are.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'd have to rate Leonard Boswell a better than average critter and no where near a Bush-dog or even Blue Dog and he just has a few more years left in him anyway with his normal 14 hour days as he has been battling health problems. The deal with Ed Fallon running against him is that you have the real thing in a progressive candidate with Ed. So it makes sense to back a true progressive that is well known and popular in the District if you are DFA.

I just had a chance to talk to Leonard on Saturday, I spent a morning with Ed a couple of months ago.

Leonard has been constrained from speaking out by the fact he is privy to the nation's best kept secrets from his position on the select committee, the nation is well served if he is part of decision making, and would give very good advice to a Democratic President just because he has always shown good judgement throughout his state legislative carreer and now in Congress. You wouldn't believe how much he wants to work with a Democrat in the White House. His wife is a school teacher and he is very good on Education but coming as he has from being a commander in Vietnam he is pro soldier without being a hawk much like Jim Webb who has similar politics. When he was a leader in the Iowa Senate he was the one that balanced the books. 

Ed Fallon is everything this organization (DFA) stands for; there would be no buyers remorse here if he is elected.

Leonard and I have been friends since the eighties farm crisis and I'll be backing Leonard in the primary. May the best man win. And if Ed comes up short he will be in good position should Leonard have to step down because of his health. Go for it. There are no bad primaries.

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By FRED from OR on Feb 14, 2008 4:45 PM EST

16.

Michael Ellis
Thu, 02/14/08

you havent seen an arthropod running around here have ya?.......cheers

==============

no but glad to see you've finally submitted to the procedure - it's painful, but as Dr. Chevy Chase once noted on SNL, too many Americans suffer needlessly from the arthropoda rectumitis, when there a simple procedure available to remove it.

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By Phil Specht on Feb 14, 2008 4:48 PM EST
Stop the Arms Race Political Action Committee (Star-PAC)
invites you to attend:
First Choice '08
Congressional Candidate Forum on War & Peace Issues
with Ed Fallon

Monday, Feb. 18th
6:30 - 7:30
First Christain Church
25th & Univeristy
Des Moines
The public is invited and there is no charge.

Ed will give 10-15 minute remarks about his views on the war and other issues of foreign and military policy. Then the audience will submit questions for Ed Fallon on foreign and military policy issues.
__________

Co-Sponsors:

Clarion Alliance, Methodist Federation for Social Action (MFSA), Plymouth UCC Peace Committee, Progressive Coalition of Central Iowa (PCCI), Trinity United Methodist Church, and WILPF -- Women's International League for Peace and Freedom

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By FRED from OR on Feb 14, 2008 4:49 PM EST

19.

Michael Ellis
Thu, 02/14/08

Reply to this
CONGRATULATIONS TO ALL THE KIDS WHO WERE BORN IN THE
1940's, 50's, 60's and 70's !!


First, we survived being born to mothers who smoked and/or drank while they carried us.

============

no forgetting the ubquitous leaded gasoline vapors for city dwellers and carcinogenic plastic cement vapors to build our military models, and DDT liberally sprayed in our swimming pools and on streets every nite.

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By FRED from OR on Feb 14, 2008 4:57 PM EST

15.

Pat in Colorado
Thu, 02/14/08

As my mother would say, "Come again?"
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Touch - deregulation of health and safety continued in full force under Bill Clinton.

Don't forget the [Rovian titled] "1994 Proprietary Protection Act", which Clinton had to sign, because it became law.

It told corporate America that we, the people, did not have a right to know what chemicals were in our consumer products.

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By Michael Ellis on Feb 14, 2008 4:58 PM EST

Pentagon footage of the shootdown of that satellite...........tax dollars at work..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roCU88FfTMo

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By FRED from OR on Feb 14, 2008 4:58 PM EST

touch = touche

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By The Original Stat Man on Feb 14, 2008 4:20 PM EST
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By FRED from OR on Feb 14, 2008 5:19 PM EST

Mythbusting Canadian Health Care - Part 2 by Kevin Shaw

===========
good piece - we need to separate medicine and for-profit business - medicine should be like the military.

Then maybe government will start regulating the corporate chemical CAUSES of Chronic degenerative diseases and vulnerabilities, instead "wars" to find the "cures"

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By Susan Rowe on Feb 14, 2008 5:32 PM EST

I just signed this petition to tell House Democrats to stand strong behind the RESTORE bill and not capitulate like the Senate did in the fight against giving George Bush and the telecom industry amnesty for their crimes and ever-greater unchecked powers.

Please join me by signing this petition:

http://action.firedoglake.com/page/petit...

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By Susan Rowe on Feb 14, 2008 5:34 PM EST

Post from Robert Cruickshank, Courage Campaign's Blog:
Senate grants telecom immunity; Feinstein's contradictions

http://www.couragecampaign.org/page/comm...

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By Joan* In*Florida on Feb 14, 2008 5:38 PM EST

Clinton leading Obama in Ohio, Pennsylvania: poll

 

The media is cherry picking polls here -- Quinnipiac is not a major poll.

In any event, Obama seems to thrive on being the "underdog" a week or so before the primary in any state. We all know what has been happening when that happens.

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By Joan* In*Florida on Feb 14, 2008 5:42 PM EST

Re: Leonard Boswell,

This may be the year for throwing out the incumbants who have not lived up to expectations. Example: Donna Edwards defeating a Bush Democrat. More to come.

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By Susan Rowe on Feb 14, 2008 5:51 PM EST

20.

Michael Ellis
Thu, 02/14/08

I've seen all those before. My ultra-right wing Republican neighbors circulated them during the last Presidential election.

They all like Ron Paul. There is a real Libertarian streak in the rural fundamentalist Christian movement in Central California. They all have private Christian K-12 schools or home school their children. They don't believe in the public school system. They all like those school vouchers.
There is a lot of demonization of public schools and public school teachers in the Christain fundamentalists movement.

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By Joan* In*Florida on Feb 14, 2008 5:56 PM EST

Sorry, no, Quinnipiac is one of the many established pollsters out there.  Know what you're talking about before you take potshots. 

I recall in the 2004 primaries, Quinnipiac polled Howard 17 points ahead in New Hampshire the day before the primary. I believe he came in second. So much for credibility.

Sharon_christmas_angel_119_tinythumb

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By Phil Specht on Feb 14, 2008 5:59 PM EST

Leonard Boswell isn't a Bush Democrat.He is pretty mainstream.  Ed Fallon is a very progressive guy, supported Nader in 2000, (now says it was a mistake),Edwards this time.

Sharon_christmas_angel_119_tinythumb

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By Phil Specht on Feb 14, 2008 6:02 PM EST

 Quinnipiac polled Howard 17 points ahead in New Hampshire the day before the primary. I believe he came in second.

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Quinnipac is one of the better polls in that they use valid methods.

You forget MSM played the scream 200 times in those 24 hours.

Sharon_christmas_angel_119_tinythumb

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By Phil Specht on Feb 14, 2008 6:07 PM EST


Then after that trauma, our baby cots were covered with bright coloured lead-based paints.

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you know instead of polls if we would just know what babies were in those cribs I bet we could explain the Bush re-election

Sharon_christmas_angel_119_tinythumb

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By Phil Specht on Feb 14, 2008 6:08 PM EST

new thread

Dean_tinythumb

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By Sitka on Feb 14, 2008 5:44 PM EST
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By pinsocal * on Feb 14, 2008 7:47 PM EST

great post, kevin!  very comprehensive. 

i know someone, like you, who has lived in both the u.s. and canada.  she's kept her canadian citizenship and plans to retire in vermont where she'll have easy access to canadian health care by just stepping over the border. 

to add another anecdote, her father was informed that if he wanted elective eye surgery to be moved up two weeks, he had to pay all of $62 [this was in the 1990s].  the surgery itself was free. 

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congrats to donna!!!  weed out the bush-lites in the swamps of washington.   

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a valentine's day wish for.......

hill and bill--matching heart-shaped tattoos with the inscription, 'i feel your pain'

mccain and bush--high-decibel, heart-shaped whoopi cushions

barack and michelle--a double heart-shaped 'do not disturb' sign hanging outside their door

cheney and rummy--a day shooting fish in a barrel

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