Firsties?

Gore/Dean 08

"Experience, and Change to Spare!"

How about secondsies for the thoughtful American voter and  a vigorous race that helps us elect the best  candidate for President?!

It's always good to see you here, Subway.

For all the Edwards supporters here (Phil, rich, Indy, Linda, cChalfonte, seashell, etc.), this is an interesting perspective from an Obama supporter on the Obama '08 blog :

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post_group/ObamaHQ/CpB#comment-gGCjPc

Re: Edwards...any news? 

By Amy

10 minutes ago

Look, folks, we need Edwards in the race right now. It's a lot more complicated than just narrowing the field. He pulls votes mostly from Hillary in the next two states.

You can bet the two campaigns, ours and Edwards', are talking. (You can bet that HIllary is frantically trying to get him to withdraw. I'll bet they're using dirty tactics, too.)

You can also bet that Edwards knows what would be best for the country. He is a patriot and a good person, and he will withdraw when it is best for our collective agenda of change. I've no doubt of that.

I've been hard on Edwards in here at times, because I can't condone his Iraq Resolution co-sponsorship, and because I have an idea what the Republicans would do to him. But Edwards is a good person and his heart is in the right place, and he will do what is best for our agenda of change.

Wait until the next two primaries are over, and then let's reassess. ...  

I like BO, but my guess is that policy wise he will fal into the Dem mold of raising taxes on "the rich".  Of course everyone knows there is no money to be made taxing those with incomes over say a million.  To get enough potential payors you need to reach way down and start considering couples over $140,000 as "rich".  Right now exemptions for my children have been eliminated,  alternative minimum tax is upon us.  My CPA estimated a repeal of the 2002 tax cuts would cost me directly $13,500.  Do I want to vote for someone I know will cost me an amount equal to a year of my sons college eduction at the local state school.  And that cost is EACH year thereafter.  That is a tough sell.  

http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3378044

http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3379446

http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3294063

http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3246740

http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3235524 

I don't know why these stories didn't get wider distribution.  Charles J. Hanley wrote them under the auspices of the Associated Press and ABC has them indexed.  But, they don't all show up in Google if you just put in his name.  Also, for some reason, the dates are missing on the print versions which I've linked to here.  I've chosen those because yesterday, some of the sites suddenly disappeared (could not be found on this server)

Let me know If you can't find them.  I've archived them on Hannah.

Barack Obama’s strategists are left with one inescapable lesson from Tuesday’s voting in New Hampshire: their candidate does not have much appeal to older, less-educated, lower-income and Catholic voters.:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22575721/

What Berlin, N.H. can teach Barack Obama  

Democrat falls far short among lower-income, less educated voters

By Tom Curry

National affairs writer

MSNBC

updated 5:13 p.m. ET, Wed., Jan. 9, 2008

MANCHESTER, N.H. - What can Berlin, N.H., teach the rest of America about the presidential campaigns that just swept through town?

And what does Berlin's primary outcome teach Democratic candidate Barack Obama and his team of strategists?

Berlin, way up north in the White Mountains, is far off the beaten path, far from major airports or even an interstate highway. It's an old paper mill city where economic development is still a pipe dream.

...

A reprise of Gore v. Bradley
In some ways, Tuesday's Clinton-Obama-John Edwards contest resembled the Al Gore and Bill Bradley's 2000 battle in New Hampshire.

Sounding like Obama eight years before Obama arrived on the scene, Bradley claimed to represent a “new kind of politics” – less partisan, more consensus-minded and less interested in settling scores.

In Berlin in 2000, Gore trounced Bradley, getting two out of every three Democratic voters.

“There’s a history in the New Hampshire primary of reform-minded insurgent candidates going against the more Establishment candidate who presents a traditional, bread-and-butter message,” said Dante Scala, a political scientist at the University of New Hampshire.

...

5.  Well, if your son studies hard, he'll get a scholarship and it won't cost you.  And, if we get really progressive, the scholarship won't be limited to your state college.

(cont.)

...

“Working-class Democrats hear this talk about reform and change, and they wonder, ‘what’s it going to do for me?’” Scala said.

...

+++

Well, I'm wondering then, how the heck did JFK get elected ?  I mean in his 1961 inaugural address he stated: "ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country".  He seemd to be telling those "what's in it for me" people to broaden their thinking, their attitude.

I don't have much use for Dante Scala or the Survey Center at UNH, but this is the second time I've heard the word "insurgent" used for one of the campaigns in the last twenty-four hours.  Which raises the question in my mind if the ground is being laid for addressing the fact that the "insurgents" in Iraq are nothing more than Iraqis who don't like the government that's been forced down their throats. 

I like BO, but my guess is that policy wise he will fal into the Dem mold of raising taxes on "the rich".

When the rich have been taxed more have been the times of greatest prosperity for all.

It's just GOP propaganda that they invest and create more jobs if allowed to keep more of their gross sums. 

9.  1960 was a very different time. 

Berlin, NH is one of those places that stank to high heaven.  It took a while to get used to the smell of the paper mills and the locals would be sure to tell you "that's the smell of money."  Now the mills are shutting down.  The air may smell better, but people are worried about making a living--again.  

Also, that was JFK's inaugural.  It wasn't his campaign speech.  LOL

 That is a tough sell. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

what is a tougher sell is telling someone who has an annual income of your "tax savings" and working for minimum wage that they should feel sorry for poor old Fox

I've been hard on Edwards in here at times, because I can't condone his Iraq Resolution co-sponsorship, and because I have an idea what the Republicans would do to him. But Edwards is a good person and his heart is in the right place, and he will do what is best for our agenda of change.

It strikes me as curious, odd, and amusing, all at the same time how someone can cite a bad record and then say the politician will do good. 

Hi ,

JFK's election was a squeaker, and it was attributed to the deceased Cook County voters in Chicago.  Nixon could have contested the election and maybe even have won, but he didn't.

Dear Heaven or whatever, why do we insist our candidate gravitate to the lowest possible level? Haven't we had enough of the illiterate and ignorant George W. Bush?  

I hear complaints that Barack Obama's rhetoric is too high level, to abstract, too eloquent, and all I can think of is how can you possibly say that after George Bush?  Do we really have to pretend to like the beer swilling, sports devotee, NASCAR supporting, body admiring (he admired the build of the UN Administrator from Brazil who was killed because they didn't have the rescue equipment necessary to save him after his UN aoffice in Iraq was bombed) image of what a man should be?

I don't want a low level candidate who has only one message, who constantly points out what is wrong with this country.   I don't believe the voters do either, and for a simple non logical example.  J.K. Rowling's books did not talk down to children.  They were written for an adult readership with difficult vocabulary, abstract ideas, wonderful characters and setting,s and a major theme about goodness, about evil, about war, about courage, etc.  Why or why do we have to have a numbskull for President?

And about hope.   I'm reminded of Pandora, the mythical Greek woman who opened the mysterious box and let out all the plagues of the world, and the worst of them all was HOPE, which breaks our hearts. 

aargh typos.

ya know how when oler was here, he had the same ol drumbeat. well sitka has replaced him. hey we get it, you don't like edwards so pack it up and go home.

Subway, nice to see you here. Hope your health is fine.

And about hope.   I'm reminded of Pandora, the mythical Greek woman who opened the mysterious box and let out all the plagues of the world, and the worst of them all was HOPE, which breaks our hearts.

I've heard that before, but never bought into it. Believing things can get better is often the first step to making it so.

9.  1960 was a very different time. 

Berlin, NH is one of those places that stank to high heaven.  It took a while to get used to the smell of the paper mills and the locals would be sure to tell you "that's the smell of money."  Now the mills are shutting down.  The air may smell better, but people are worried about making a living--again.  

Also, that was JFK's inaugural.  It wasn't his campaign speech.  LOL

+++

Monica -

Thanks for that on the ground assessment of today's NH and of the piece about JFK.

Indeed, at least Obama is upfront about the shared-sacrifice bit, unlike JFK who waited and dropped that bombshell on the voters on inaugural day.

Lastly, that article talks about how Clinton got the Catholic vote, in NH mostly comprised of French-Canadians and Irish.  Well, I'm Catholic, Irish, consider myself average income, and yet I'm intending to vote next month here in MA for Obama, and not for Clinton.

I guess I'm out of touch with my fellow demographic folks.

Sorry to disagree, linda b, but I enjoy Sitka's remarks.  Sometimes they are like being dashed with cold water, but I don't see the meanness,  the viciousness that Oler's attacks carried.  Sitka is witty, very very smart, and his arguments are counter points.  I'm grateful for him.

Yesterday I went to Richmond for the swearing in ceremony of our new state senator, John Miller.

The new capitol in Richmond is amazing, it was redone over the last two years. A sight to behold.

It was fun and I got to see friends (yes I do have one or two) from the Dean campaign and some local campaigns.

What really struck me at John's reception was whe someone addressed him as Senator Miller. I almost cried.

Yup folks, we got our guy elected.

See what I mean linda b?  He just gave a counter point, and I can see the logic of that too.  It makes me smile.  Thanks, Sitka, I needed that.

Pat, nope, disagree. Repeat only works well when you was your hair.

Enough already.

ya know how when oler was here, he had the same ol drumbeat. well sitka has replaced him. hey we get it, you don't like edwards so pack it up and go home.

+++

Ummmh, nope, I don't agree with telling anyone to go anywhere.

mprov already left the blog last night (this BFA pond is already small enough now IMO not to let anymore resident fish jump it's bank into a neighboring pond -- bad analogy, I know, I'm Catholic and just can't seem to get the fishes and loaves thing out of mind right now [smile]))

that is wash your hair. repeat, get it?

26. that may be why there is no one is here.

ya know how when oler was here, he had the same ol drumbeat. well sitka has replaced him. hey we get it, you don't like edwards so pack it up and go home.

Oler belittled people in every post. And FRED told them to leave the blog. I do neither. How about you?

As for Edwards, about the only time I mention him is in response to silly things said about him.  

And we also get it that some like him. I don't tell them to shut up or leave.

And you know what? Some of them do a pretty thorough job of attacking Obama all the time -- and not in response to false praise about him. I don't bother to keep track of whether you do or not. 

Pat we have three highly intelligent and eloquent candidates left, so not to worry.

We also have choices.

John Edwards will deliver universal health care which is the single biggest irrational factor in our society.

Hillary Clinton is most likely to deliver on promises to beef up the military.

and Barack Obama will deliver on his promise to elevate the discourse

It is the priorities that concern me.

linda b

yyyyyyeeeeeaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think I bash anyone. cept you for bashing edwards. While it is your right as an American, it gets monotnous. I don't get on the blog very much lately but when I do, all I see is your anti edwards comments.

I happen to like Edwards, as do many others. So when someone posts positives or facts about him and you immediatly slam him, that is monotnous.

It is the priorities that concern me.

It is their records, not their promises, that concern me and tell more about what they will do if elected. 

We don't have to be homogenous on this blog.  It is richer, more fun, more interesting for a variety of voices and viewpoints.  I don't think it's wise to give ultimatums to each other.  I don't want to be part of a dialogue where everyone agrees.

I've also noticed, and it is so interesting, people analyze each other's personalities, as if  they knew why and how and what someone's motives are.  It bewilders me because I would argue we don't even know ourselves.  

How can we possibly make remarks that we know why someone voted for a candidate or supports a candidate or agrees with a candidate??? It seems to me like insularity and arrogance.  I just don't understand. 

Phil, congrats on LSU. I missed the last half of the game, but they deserved to win.

Hi Phil,

Yes, I agree that we have three outstanding candidates.  I think that the more concrete examples we can look at, the more we can see how a candidate deals with others, with his or her opponents, we'll get a better picture of who that person is.

Phil, I don't honestly see how Edwards could possibly accomplish the health care reform on his own.  JFK couldn't get a particular building vacated in Washington DC after over a year of signing an order.

I also don't see Edwards as able to persuade other people that he will need to help hiim effect his plan?  Can you enlighten me on this? 

well, if someone had a vote and it was wrong and then they admit they were wrong, would it be better that they  apologized?

That is what Edwards did. Did HIllary say she was wrong? NO.

So what do you want?

Is Edwards too good looking, a trial lawyer with a lawyer wife? All these things have been brought up by the media et al.

I have heard John speak in person many times. I have talked to him personally. I have a good judge of character. Why he may not be perfect, he is talking the talk.

I don't want a president who talks in mish mash. I don't trust Hillary, I don't think Barack is ready. I didn't get that from the media, I got it from personally hearing them all speak.

I don't think I bash anyone. cept you for bashing edwards.

You should also bash those who bash Obama and Hillary if you want the credibilty that comes with consistency. 

While it is your right as an American, it gets monotnous.

I feel that way about Edwards propaganda. but I don't bash the people who do it without shame. 

all I see is your anti edwards comments.

In light of all the anti Obama/Hillary comments, you're obviously seeing what you want to. 

I happen to like Edwards, as do many others.

Yeah, we got that already. 

So when someone posts positives or facts about him and you immediatly slam him, that is monotnous.

That's just it. People don't post positive facts about. Edwards. They post pretty prose about his promises and paste campaign literature.

I post facts about his record. And I can see why you find it monotonous.

IMO if people want to leave, or come back, it's their right. Kitchen too hot and all of that - or just being very immature.

But I agree we shouldn't be demanding it of someone. Inviting them back is laudable when we realize that hey, they are only human. The good and the bad, the "huh?" and the direct.

But we shouldn't be sin eaters just to make sure people come back - that's just not healthy.

I also don't see Edwards as able to persuade other people

Having won one primary in 5 years, he obviously can't persude enough people. 

See what I mean.

Pick and choose from different posts. It ain't working.

Iin the latest issue of Newsweek, a letter to the editor makes the same point, that  Edwards hasn't resonated with the voters.  How is that statement objectionable?

It's not objectionable, Pat, it's just the way it is at the moment. Who knows, he may rally bigtime and then Newsweek will print different facts.

Like mainefem says, some just emote all over the place LOL

well, if someone had a vote and it was wrong and then they admit they were wrong, would it be better that they  apologized?

Better someone who doesn't need to apologize. And Edwards also did much to help Bush that he hasn't apologized for. 

That's true, Denise, and when all is finished, I'm sure that all of the three candidates have the intelligence, the experience, and the strength to be president.

Though, come to think of it, Sitka, hope does break our hearts.  After Howard Dean's loss in 2004 I was numb and heartbroken.  So there.  But, by the same token, I'd vote for the candidate every time who did raise my expectations, did resonate with my values, someone who could articulate and enact those character traits that I most admire. 

See what I mean.

Just the facts. ma'am. 

Edwards hasn't resonated with the voters

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

he did more than Clinton in Iowa, I just don't know how people can make that claim Pat

And HIllary has sided with bush and so has obama. you defending them?

by your criteria, none of them should be president.

Though, come to think of it, Sitka, hope does break our hearts.  After Howard Dean's loss in 2004 I was numb and heartbroken.  So there.

But from that came a new hope for change which seems to be gaining strength. But maybe it will break your heart too. I'm not the sort that gets heartbroken so I wouldn't know.

I see little in the way of facts, just repition of talking points.

And HIllary has sided with bush and so has obama. you defending them?

Actually, no. That's what I meant when I said you see only what you want to. 

But from that came a new hope for change which seems to be gaining strength. But maybe it will break your heart too. I'm not the sort that gets heartbroken so I wouldn't know.

may be the problem

John Edwards is taking on the exact same forces preventing progress in this country that Howard did, and I don't understand the antipathy here on the Dean blog.

Pat what do you think of John Edwards idea of a National University of Excellence for Educators on par with the military academies for producing a leadership corps of teachers?

Actually, no. That's what I meant when I said you see only what you want to. 

as do you.

Phil,

John Kerry just endorsed Obama.  Why didn't he endorse Edwards?  I guess the only answer to your question is that Edwards hasn't been the front runner, but maybe that's simply irrelevant.

Honestly, and I have thought about this, Edwards doesn't resonate with me. He's obviously smart, accomplished, successful, a good person, someone with a vision for America, and maybe this is the viceral frustrating part, I just can't take him very seriously, and I don't know why.  He seems packaged to me, seems to say the same things over and over, seems to be a sort of star as opposed to a team player, but that argument could fit all the candidates.  

 So, I guess I'm willing to hear why Edwards seems to be the best choice, but criticizing Obama to support Edwards, which some people do, isn't convincing to me.  How is Edwards the best candidate?

I see little in the way of facts, just repition of talking points.

You're actually describing Edwards' supporters.

Is it not a fact that Edwards has won but one primary in 5 years?

Is it not a fact that Edwards' current promises are belied by his Senate record of collaboration with the worst of Bush's agenda? 

Spread the love!

Need a big knife in here lately

John Edwards is taking on the exact same forces preventing progress in this country that Howard did, and I don't understand the antipathy here on the Dean blog.

and the media is blacking him out so the message won't get out. then some people repeat what the corporate media does say.

$400 haircut

large house

trial lawyer

no facts just hype. we got it here.

John Kerry just endorsed Obama.  Why didn't he endorse Edwards?

Because he's secretly FOR Edwards and knows his endorsement is probably a curse? 

We don't have to be homogenous on this blog.  It is richer, more fun, more interesting for a variety of voices and viewpoints.  I don't think it's wise to give ultimatums to each other.  I don't want to be part of a dialogue where everyone agrees.

I've also noticed, and it is so interesting, people analyze each other's personalities, as if  they knew why and how and what someone's motives are.  It bewilders me because I would argue we don't even know ourselves.  

...

+++

Pat -

As the Brits say "spot on" about your analysis, your feet-on-the ground view of this blog.  In the spirit of that, here's a Giant tune from one my favorite U.K. transplanted to CA groups that started in 1978 and is still belting out tunes:

http://www.lyricsdir.com/the-the-giant-lyrics.html

...

I also don't see Edwards as able to persuade other people that he will need to help hiim effect his plan?  Can you enlighten me on this? 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edwards is premising his success on the fact he will garner a majority of the voting public who elected him President by joining him in a cause, and that majority of voters will cause a majority of Congress to do the right thing.

I like BO, but my guess is that policy wise he will fal into the Dem mold of raising taxes on "the rich".

When the rich have been taxed more have been the times of greatest prosperity for all.

 __________________________

Like 1976-1981 when the top marginal rate for tax payors was 70%.  Let that sink in.  Do you remember that era, 7% inflation, 20% interest rates, unemployment at 7.5%.  Taxes with Reagan and a Democratic Congress were lower to a top marginal rate of 28%.  The economy took off and it has been twenty years of pretty much consistent growth.  Taking more of my money does not increase "our" prosperity but it does take from my family and my children.  All I am saying is it a tough sell to vote for someone when you know it will cost you more in taxes.  And it is conversely easy to vote for someone if they are going to increase someone elses taxes and give it to you in the form of increased benefits.  That is why there is a Democratic Party.  The great distributor of others peoples money to those that vote for them.

$400 haircut

large house

trial lawyer

no facts just hype. we got it here.

If you've seen a post where I've criticized those things I'd love to see it too. 

How is obama the best candidate? Yesterday in Richmond at the swearing in ceremony and the reception afterwards it was most of the african american attendees that do not support obama, they don't think he is electable. They think it would be easier for the rethugs to go after an african american, like they did Harold Ford, than a female candidate.

I have heard this for a long time from people form all over the state.

If you've seen a post where I've criticized those things I'd love to see it too. 

did I mention you?

I hope mprov sticks around. I've noticed Fred is gone.. Was he banned? Or did he just leave.

As far as comments about women voting for a woman just because she's a woman.. don't personally agree with it, but again, people have free choice.

I don't, personally understand why men vote for other men simply because they like guns. I don't agree with it at all, but they have that right to choose to do it.    

Like 1976-1981 when the top marginal rate for tax payors was 70%.  Let that sink in. 

Bill clinton raised taxes of uppers and it ushered in one of the greatest periods of prosperity ever. Reagan raised taxes (on middle incomers) in 1982 and it ended the recesssion his previous tax scam couldn't.

The highest tax rates in history on uppers were from WWII to 1961 (Kennedy cut them) and it was the greatest boom time in US history.

Taxes help the economy and taxing uppers more helps the most. 

Hey Sitka, I obviously like your humor because my husband and several good friends have the same kind of wit.  Don't tell me about broken hearts: I've seen the compassionate side to this kind of wit.

Phil, frankly, as a life long teacher (I started teaching dancing at the age of 11, was a Garrison Keillor type of English major, etc.) that kind of proposal gives me the chills. The wider background a teacher has, the more experience with a variety of subjects, cultures, people, individuals, the better the teacher.  

We've all see the rigid, knowing the right way type of person, and they are usually authoritarians of the worst sort, and I would argue that my generation left because of so much authoritarianism.

I also witnessed all the leadership programs, or most of them, the Q Ten,  standards based assessments, the leadership trainings, and they are simply packages that some marketing group or corporation makes money off.  They aren't successful, and I've recently read research that most administrators now are coming out of those programs and they are authoritarian, politically manipulative, inexpereinced as far as dealing with the ordinary classroom, removed from the ordinary teacher's experience, and aloof and judgmental.

I don't think from your statement that Edwards has a clue about teaching. 

 That is a tough sell. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

what is a tougher sell is telling someone who has an annual income of your "tax savings" and working for minimum wage that they should feel sorry for poor old Fox

_______________

I never asked for sympathy. I said it was a tough sell.  And you know as well as I that you can't find anyone in northern Iowa to work for minimum wage.  Heck, McDonalds starts high school kids at $6.50 part time, Walmart's in Nebraska are paying a starting wage of $8.00 an hour.  The market has swept the minimum wage into history, except as a talking point to make people feel bad for those poor souls. 

I've noticed Fred is gone.. Was he banned?

One day he was having his worst profanity attack ever and the next he was gone. Who knows? 

AnHow about Edwards emphasis on decreasing high school drop out rates and a clear plan to make college available for all, but also advanced training for kids not on a college track.

How is obama the best candidate? Yesterday in Richmond at the swearing in ceremony and the reception afterwards it was most of the african american attendees that do not support obama, they don't think he is electable. They think it would be easier for the rethugs to go after an african american, like they did Harold Ford, than a female candidate.

I have heard this for a long time from people form all over the state.

+++

If FDR were still alive today, he would have a rejoiner to tell those "african american attendees that do not support obama, they don't think he is electable":

"We have no fear but fear itself"

My wife is african american and she's not afraid to back Obama for president.

But, Phil, I think your response as to how Edwards would effect a health care reform is right on, and I think Obama said the same thing about how he would accomplish health care reform.  So, I guess that argument is moot.

Edwards is premising his success on the fact he will garner a majority of the voting public who elected him President by joining him in a cause, and that majority of voters will cause a majority of Congress to do the right thing.

Trouble is, he has yet to garner a plurailty of Democrats in more than one primary back in 2004. After 5 years running for president, Dems still aren't buying what he's selling (even though he's now selling a different product.)

My wife is african american and she's not afraid to back Obama for president.  

just telling you what I am hearing here in Virginia. Obviously somone can vote for who they want to .

I am just an observer.

... 

I don't, personally understand why men vote for other men simply because they like guns.

+++

huh ?

I'm a man voting for Obama and I don't like guns.  Thus, I don't fit neatly into your generalization.

AnHow about Edwards emphasis on decreasing high school drop out rates and a clear plan to make college available for all

Instead of mentioning it, you should cite it if you hope to change any minds. 

* rdorgan
Thu, 01/10/08

Reply to this

My wife is african american and she's not afraid to back Obama for president.  

just telling you what I am hearing here in Virginia. Obviously somone can vote for who they want to .

I am just an observer.

+++

linda b -

Diito, I'm an observer too.

Taxes help the economy and taxing uppers more helps the most. 

___________

You lack of knowledge as to economics is only surpassed by your hatred of John Edwards.  And that is hard to do!  Reagan raised rates in 1986, not 1982 and it was from 28% to 31% and only for the top 3% or wage earners.  Learn your history before you start pontificating over your head. The economy was already humming by then.  He used it to win re-election. 

Pat

John Edwards has been involved with a rural county increasing graduation rates with his foundation, and when he sees a need, and has acted on that need.

But he is a good listener and when he gets to Colorado be sure to share your concerns .

did I mention you?

My mistake. Since you accused me of other things I hadn't said, I thought you still were.

and has acted on that need.

How? 

My wife is african american and she's not afraid to back Obama for president.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My wife is a white american and shes not afraid to back Clinton for president.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Nope, the media is obsessed with John Edwards "quirks".

I noticed at the last debate, his hair was flat!!!

LOL

And I SAID you are constantly hounding on edwards. that is the accusation. actually not an accusation, it is the fact.

Couple of comments.  Thanks rdorgan for the Giant Lyrics.  I'll copy that.

It is soooo sad that African Americans, including a dear friend, feel that way, are so cautious.  It's a measure of the depth of prejudice and bigotry we have experienced in this counrty and which may stil be here.  It will take enormous courage to trust that people will vote for Obama if they believe in him.

But we've certainly been inured to fear.  It's nuts.

My husband worked for 9 years with kids at risk. Their program was pretty much ignored by the district, and they had the highest success rate. Their method was that every student was an individual and they designed the curriculum and supports around each student.  Unfortunately, these massive programs do what all massive programs do,  help some, but the really needing students just don't make it.  It's a national problem, and we must do something about it, but privatizing isn't the answer, programming teachers isn't the answer.  

We have the success/ failure of No Child Left Behind, which takes enormous amounts of money and pays the testing companies that money, not the teachers, not the support staff; in fact, if a school is failing, tutors must be hired privately, not from inside the system.

I'm suspicious, Phil, of these massive solutions.  They generally don't work and people make lots of money off them. 

remember the ill US Senator Tim Johnson of South Dakota ?

well, he's made a decision today:

http://www.ksfy.com/news/local/13568797.html

Senator Tim Johnson, pictured here in 2006, continues to recover from a brain hemorrhage he suffered on December 13th, 2006.

Story Created: Jan 9, 2008 at 3:56 PM CST

Story Updated: Jan 9, 2008 at 3:56 PM CST

South Dakota Senator Tim Johnson is endorsing Barack Obama for the Democratic presidential nomination.  Johnson says he likes Obama because he's bi-partisan and wants to bridge differences between the two parties.

...

Having fun today I see!

I think a lot of the frustration around here is that none of these candidates are Howard Dean, or even Al Gore.  When all were in (what was that, nine of them?) none of them were my first or second or third choice for this time around, so most of us are left with choosing the least objectionable.  As Leo said, "I'm tired of having to choose from the lesser of 'who cares?'"

I'm not afraid to back no one for president.

The wider background a teacher has, the more experience with a variety of subjects, cultures, people, individuals, the better the teacher

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That is what Edwards proposes to do, put the teacherat the center.

Johnson says he likes Obama because he's bi-partisan

 I'm not.  I'm very partisan.  Maybe not for a D next to someone's name, but when it comes to what I believe in, I'm very partisan.

I have to be.  The other side is. 

Couple of comments.  Thanks rdorgan for the Giant Lyrics.  I'll copy that.

...

Pat -

You're welcome.

I've been a big fan of the group The The ever since I heard the songs on their 1983 album Soul Mining (ie. Giant is one of the tunes on that album).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_The

http://www.thethe.com/

I'm not afraid to back no one for president.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Maybe sitka,

But you have elaborated how you will go into the voting booth anyway and pull the lever for somebody.......where I wont.

And I SAID you are constantly hounding on edwards. that is the accusation. actually not an accusation, it is the fact.

I hound Edwards with his own record no matter how fast and far his supporters run from it. 

But you have elaborated how you will go into the voting booth anyway and pull the lever for somebody.......where I wont.

Yep. but I won't make a fool of myself by telling anyone else who they should vote for. 

I'm suspicious, Phil, of these massive solutions.  They generally don't work and people make lots of money off them. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pat

John Edwards is second to no one at working to make college affordable for kids that wouldn't otherwise be able.

sure that is a massive dream

not as massive as his dream to raise people up out of poverty young or old, but you must bethinking of someone else if you think that Edwards plan is corporate profits as the way to societal gains

South Dakota Senator Tim Johnson is endorsing Barack Obama for the Democratic presidential nomination.  Johnson says he likes Obama because he's bi-partisan and wants to bridge differences between the two parties.

yep that's what we need. here in va they have a 10 person rethug majority in the house. the dems have the senate.

so  the "bipartisan" house just booted all the influential dems off of transportation committee and the health and education committees.

so you can throw "bipartisanship down the tubes in va".

and illegal immigration and the hate it brings is front and center for the rethugs.

Yep. but I won't make a fool of myself by telling anyone else who they should vote for

huh?

Hi again,

#70, Phil, those are great goals.  I think college, technical training, training for work of any kind is a necessity in our culture and it should be if not free, affordable. And, yes, if Edwards has people who know how to help kids stay in school and off the streets, find a reason to learn and practice the discipline it takes to accomplish a goal, that's great.  I'm glad to hear that.

The only other candidate I've heard anything about is Rechardson who would put arts in all the schools.  I like that as well.

I don't know about HIllary Clinton nor Barack Obama's thoughts on education. 

don't hurt that dog!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  Johnson says he likes Obama because he's bi-partisan and wants to bridge differences between the two parties

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

and that in a nutshell is why I don't

... 

It is soooo sad that African Americans, including a dear friend, feel that way, are so cautious.  It's a measure of the depth of prejudice and bigotry we have experienced in this counrty and which may stil be here.

+++

Pat -

It's called having a mindset where you still can't allow yourself to think about where to sit on the bus other than the seats in the back.

My wife doesn't have that mindset (she in fact became a registered nurse and started her own business).

Maybe it's because my wife immigrated to America in 1972 from Sierra Leone, Africa, long after the civil rights movement here in the states.  First thing she did is to find a way to get a college education.  She sat in the college campus cafeteria or library, with whatever friends she decided to, got along the best with, whether white or AA, or asian, or hispanic.  Well, if she sat with a few white friends, then a neighboring table occupied predominately by african americans, those AAs there would give my wife glaring looks and mutter things like "she's not one of us", "she must be from the burbs".

That may be one reason my wife supports Obama for president.

 Download (2721) | Play (3094)   Download (1401) | Play (1780)

Dan Abrams has been documenting the misstatements and missteps of some of the presidential candidates on the campaign trail and Wednesday night, he pulled out a whopper from the nosediving Mr. 9/11 himself. Shockingly, this little gaffe had nothing to do with 9/11, it was all about immigrants and language.

Rudy has been pretending to be tough on illegal immigration and has repeatedly said that he believes all immigrants should be able to read, write and speak English in order to become U.S. citizens — then turns around and airs a campaign ad in Florida …wait for it…in SPANISH. Abrams and guest Rachel Maddow couldn’t contain their laughter…neither could I.

Maddow: “How do you say hypocrite in Spanish?”

I guess I not partisan enough for many folks here.

Too bad, that's me.

I'll be voting for Obama here in MA on Super Tuesday.

ciao

#95 Phil, I didn't know that, but that's very impressive, and I'm glad to know it.  That should be part of his speech and campaign literature.  That college and training is so expensive and that banks and other lending institutions are making money off students is reprehensiible and shameful.

My National Defense Loan in 1963 allowed me to finish my BA. Without it, I couldn't have.  I didn't seem able to work and go to school, and in those days you had to take a minimum number of hours to stay enrolled.  I think it was 15 hours.

Moreover, the interest rate was 1 and 1/2 percent a year and I didn't have to start paying it back for a year or so after I graduated.  Then, because I taught in a high risk area, half the payment was cancelled.  Whatever happened to such benevolence and support for future generations? 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

and that in a nutshell is why I don't

I make it a point not to let the opinions of others influence my own -- especially from some guy named Johnson.....or Rove. 

So much for bipartisanship in virginia.

the rethugs are in crash and burn mode.

• Democratic Caucus Chair Brian Moran, under whose leadership these gains have been made, has been removed from the Transportation and Health, Welfare and Institutions committees. Instead, he has been assigned to the Finance and Militia, Police and Public Safety committees, moves designed to get Moran to vote on taxes and guns.

• Democratic Caucus Vice-Chair Lionel Spruill, who has been active in campaigns across the Commonwealth but particularly in Hampton Roads, was removed from the Appropriations committee. Spruill, of Chesapeake, had served on this committee for eight years.

• Del. Ken Plum was removed from the Science and Technology committee. Plum has served on this committee for 20 years, including time as chair.

• Del. Jeion Ward was removed from the Education committee. Ward, of Hampton, is an educator and treasurer of the Democratic Caucus.

These are just the ones that jump out. I’m sure there are others.

So much for looking out for the people of Virginia.

sorry for stating the facts.

Edwards is the education candidate of the three, and Richardson certainly was excellent as well.

Edwards is the health care candidate of the three.

and Edwards is tackling head on the obstacles to economic justice.

plus he has done no sabre rattling and voting for Kyl Lieberman, no force building promises, no "we will pursue into Pakistan", will have a majority of combat troops out of Iraq in 6-9 months

Yep. but I won't make a fool of myself by telling anyone else who they should vote for

huh?

LOL.....there are obviously those who think nothing of putting their own reputation on the line in order to promote politicians. I happen to not be one of them except in rare cases such as McGovern and Dean.

I'm a Platform person so I'm naturally going to go with the candidate closest to the core values of the Democratic Party grassroots as passed in their platform and that person is John Edwards.

bbl

Free public education pre-K through post-12,

Good idea. I'd like to see the version of it sponsored by Edwards as a senator. 

I'm a Platform person

I'm a Record person. 

What politicians have done tells more about what they'll do than their promises. 

"Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope." -Robert F. Kennedy

The New Hampshire primary was over, and the scene at Manchester-Boston Regional Airport the next day resembled a modern-day Exodus. Hundreds of battle-weary volunteers and workers for every candidate sat waiting for their flights home, or to another primary state. Tattered stickers from one last GOTV canvass clung to jackets, buttons pinned to lapels in one last show of support. Bouyant Clinton supporters waited near giggly students for Obama, unfazed by second place. A lone Richardson supporter folded up a yard sign to take home. I had some time to reflect on why I had even come to this frigid state for a  candidate that got third place.

I came because it is my hope that the American Dream will never die. The American Dream that attracted millions to our shores, millions who braved rough seas and war at home, the American Dream that brought my parents here. I came because I believed John Edwards embodied the spirit of the American Dream, and of the Democratic Party that once stood up and defended it. The American Dream--that all would have their voice be heard. The American Dream--that all would have the same chance that Senator Edwards had to rise from the bottom with enough hard work. These were the values staunchly defended by the great liberals of the past--and I am not afraid to say liberal--which we have immortalized in the initials we call them by.

http://www.raisingkaine.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=12166

LOL.....there are obviously those who think nothing of putting their own reputation on the line in order to promote politicians. I happen to not be one of them except in rare cases such as McGovern and Dean.

APPLAUSE

Whatever happened to such benevolence and support for future generations? 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Pat,

Been to a movie lately? You will be entertained by a 10 minute promo for the National Guard......pretty good re-enactments of your ancestors beating those terrible British back in 1775..............

Watch tv much?  Count the ads, espeically during a NBA or NFL game for the armed forces......you know, the Army will make you a stronger person than you already are type thing...

Last weekend, did you happen to catch the "Armed Forces Bowl"..between the best high school football players(and future cannon fodder for next war or two).......

Have a kid in high school by chance? Its right about now or within a few months, if they are a Senoir that you and he/she will be deluged with all sorts of stuff from the military to join up......I remember it well, in 1974...........me and my buddies tossed it all away, we didnt want to end up like alot of our friends who today are either dead, mentally disturbed, sleeping under a bridge or begging for money on some street corner.

YOU ALL HAVE A GREAT AFTERNOON.

peace.

In the fall of 2005, John Edwards helped start a College for Everyone pilot program at Greene Central High School in Snow Hill, North Carolina. The program was launched by the Center for Promise and Opportunity Foundation, a North Carolina nonprofit organization. Located in rural, eastern North Carolina, Greene County's income and education attainment are lower than North Carolina averages. Its school system has an above-average percentage of students who are economically disadvantaged.

The College for Everyone program is based on a proposal that Edwards first talked about in his 2004 presidential campaign. It helps pay for the first year of tuition, fees and books for college students who agree to work part-time. Students must also complete coursework that prepares them for further education, stay out of trouble, and enroll in a participating public university or community college. The program works with College Summit and North Carolina's universities and community colleges. Last year the program announced that more than $300,000 in scholarship funding was available, and 72 students just completed their first year of college. More than 125 students from this year's graduating class are expected to college in the fall with the help of College for Everyone. The projected college-going rate for Greene Central seniors has increased from 54 percent before the program started to 74 percent today

Enough "walk the walk" for you?.

Some really good arguments for your candidates.......many of you are right......but the bigger question is this.........IF its not your guy/gal on the ballot come NOvember 2008.......will you still vote?

Pat....
Linda B..

Pat, I think Linda put her finger on it in #56.

What does it for me, like Phil said, Edwards is talking about the same things Howard did. We know who fought that. so, when I see the Media, the DLC, the establishment Dems begin to turn their guns towards Edwards, I know he's on the right track.

http://tinyurl.com/2s7yef

[...]

"Mrs. Clinton beat Mr. Obama by 12 points (47 percent to 35 percent) among those with family incomes below $50,000. By contrast, Mr. Obama beat Mrs. Clinton by five points (40 percent to 35 percent) among those earning more than $50,000.

There was an education gap, too. College graduates voted for Mr. Obama 39 percent to 34 percent; Mrs. Clinton won among those who had never attended college, 43 percent to 35 percent."

Intersections of race, class, and gender.

For the same reasons that shrub has garnered support from those with a high school diploma or less ("I might be like him one day") hooey. ...despite voting against their economic well-being.

It's all they've got (*perceived* illusions of identity & empowerment).

These folks aren't heavy-duty intellectuals; and they ready fluffy crap (if anything) in their leisure time/watch the tube, etc.


A feminist's wet dream (intellectually speaking).

I'm w/Monica on this one...it's the same in ME with older Franco-American women (who've rarely been outside of their now defunct milltowns in their adult lives). Change is not something they welcome; nor are people who appear to be "different."

Lewiston-Lisbon, Rumford, Saco, Sanford, Old Town, Waterville, & Millinocket area up North, etc. Tend to be Roman Catholic--never had advanced opportunities in life.

I've attended college w/women from those subcultures (middle-aged); and their sudden focus on academics can raise hell in their personal lives, trust me. They endure flack from their immediate and extended families in ways that aren't at all supportive. Esp. if children under age 18 are in the home (accused of being "selfish" for wanting a BA or MA).

Many divorce (once their sense of self-awareness kicks in).

Wait on their husbands hand and foot (as well as children--martyrs). Don't care for controversy, etc. Sweep things under the rug dichotomy (sorry to generalize).

...not that Hillary's broken an honest working class day of sweat in her life (she also stayed w/a womanizer and sexual harasser for decades, let's not forget--so "she identifies w/me; and is being bullied" may well have resonated). But, I digress.

Socially-constructed internalized patriarchal notions of "womanhood" still abound in certain subcultures, for sure.

...and aren't likely to be sitting around in the evening reading anything written by bell hooks or Gerda Lerner (I'd bet they don't even have a faint clue who they are--or what in the world patriarchy *is*). They watch "reality" shows...as an escape mechanism.

http://tinyurl.com/2jh94g

What they *did* have during the NH primary was the opportunity to vote in private (vs. in a stand up caucus); and punish every male who's treated them like sh^t (quite a few) throughout life.

They 'get' what it's like to be surrounded by sexist men in daily life (professionally, culturally, and inside the domestic sphere--and in church, for those who still attend faithfully).

Which is primarily the older generation of women (age 65+).

Also tolerate miserable marriages (filled w/patriarchy)--DV, incest, rape, alcoholism, & few asperations for *themselves* in life.

They watch TV in their leisure time, "God" & the Pope are the equivalent of their husbands and sons--they're into this "being protected" crap (Bubba's coded racist 'fairy tale' stint onstage for Billary).

In a warped sense, it's easy to deconstruct (although complex intersections abound).

People who do not have opportunities in life tend to lash out defensively at those whom they perceive *have* been given a free pass ($400.00 haircuts might 'stick' w/these folks).

shrub clearing brush on the ranch is what they "see," vs. how they're being screwed up the butt by his policies.

Cognitive dissonance is a tough one to budge, folks.

It requries reflection, intellectual inquiry, energy, time, and money, and internalized motivation (resources which this group do not possess in daily life).

So, yes--I can understand *why* (although, not concur) those NH women identified w/Billary being "bullied." ...which was contrived. Give her a Golden Globe!

They *live it* all the time (for real); and reacted emotionally, vs. intellectually attempting to deconstruct the whole thang.

Rep. Mike Michaud (D-ME) is a Franco-American BlueDog--wins by 70% margins. Roman Catholic and anti-choice. He's the only bonafide "millworker")--still a staunch union member; and those folks identify w/him.

Esp. when he speaks fluent Franco-American w/them (which is often--he's back in Maine most weekends). Clannish people, when their culture, language, church, mores, and values appear to be threatened. His campaign stump meme is "he's one of us."

It works.

http://tinyurl.com/yuuuau

115.

our next door neighbors daughter is a senior.

only 17. the navy  was able to get to her in school. never called the house. signed her up for the navy. called her cell phone. they had her cell phone tel no.

she is joining the navy after graduation.

in va you can't enter into a contract until you are 18 but they got her signed up for the navy at 17.

she and her mom are fighting all the time and she thinks by joining up, she will get away.

yes away to iraq. they already told her she is going to iraq.

linda b
Thu, 01/10/08

Yes, Obama is either being naive (which I don't think) or disingenuous, even dishonest, in his constant message of unity and "bi-partisanship". This is just rhetoric to loop in disaffected Rethugs and indys in Iowa and NH. It is a political ploy because Obama knows full well he will only be able to work with about half a dozen Republicans on half the issues.

And this point about including the drug cos and insurance cos when writing the health care bill is a recipe for capitulation. We've had enough of that.

Edwards in 2008.

IF its not your guy/gal on the ballot come NOvember 2008.......will you still vote? 

I always vote. Others can do what they will with their own ballot. 

rich, thank you.

Kerry endorsed Obama. So much for Edwards carrying his water for him in 04. And notice Kerry waited until he figured it was "safe" for him to do so, so he wouldn't end up backing a candidate that didn't win. Tepid all the way.

That's Kerry for you, and why we lost in 2004. Sadly, I believe we're POSSIBLY headed for another loss in 2008 because Democrats won't stand up and be principled in their convictions.

#102 rdorgan, I know what your are saying about mindset and experiences.  There is a difference I perceived from fellow teachers and friends while teaching in Chicago at 5500 South King Drive.   A friend from Nigeria visited the school and he and fellow teachers talked about the different mindset and experiences.  Prejudice and bigotry here have had terrible consequences.

Phil, linda b, about partisanship: a real dilemma.  Is the other side without ethics, without any sense of the whole of this country, yes, in many cases.  But, I don't think Americans are.  I think we as citizens know we have to work together whether it's at work or in our communities: we can't be battling each other.  It is a scorched earth kind of behavior.  

So, do we firm up our stance and opposition,  find greater strength and overwhelm the other side, or find a way through this?  I don't have an answer, but I don't think increased partisanship or polarization will help us reach our goals.

#115 Michael Ellis, that's devastating, horrible.  We used to call that kind of thing making people into cannon fodder.

Not long  ago, a young woman working as a clerk at Walgreen's said that she was joining the army so she could get her education.  Does it not strike us that a rich country with our Constitiuion  is telling young people that if they want to get an education, they have to risk their lives?  Is this sane? 

Sitka wrote: I always vote. Others can do what they will with their own ballot. 

I'm reminded of the Dean message (borrowed, I'm sure, probably from Wellstone) Democracy is not a spectator sport. (and that also means NOT a blogging sport).

Yes, Obama is either being naive (which I don't think) or disingenuous, even dishonest, in his constant message of unity and "bi-partisanship".

We've had enough of your Edwards Obama bashing! It's getting monotonous! Now just shut up and go away!

(tongue planted firmly in cheek) 

Edwards in 2008.

Keep up the HOPE. 

In the fall of 2005, John Edwards helped start a College for Everyone pilot program at Greene Central High School in Snow Hill, North Carolina. The program was launched by the Center for Promise and Opportunity Foundation, a North Carolina nonprofit organization. Located in rural, eastern North Carolina, Greene County's income and education attainment are lower than North Carolina averages. Its school system has an above-average percentage of students who are economically disadvantaged.

The College for Everyone program is based on a proposal that Edwards first talked about in his 2004 presidential campaign. It helps pay for the first year of tuition, fees and books for college students who agree to work part-time. Students must also complete coursework that prepares them for further education, stay out of trouble, and enroll in a participating public university or community college. The program works with College Summit and North Carolina's universities and community colleges. Last year the program announced that more than $300,000 in scholarship funding was available, and 72 students just completed their first year of college. More than 125 students from this year's graduating class are expected to college in the fall with the help of College for Everyone. The projected college-going rate for Greene Central seniors has increased from 54 percent before the program started to 74 percent today

Enough "walk the walk" for you?.

Sorry about the duplicate post

  AP via YahooNews:

Republican Rep. John Doolittle, who is under investigation in a congressional lobbying scandal, plans to announce Thursday that he’ll retire from Congress at the end of his current term, according to a Republican official who spoke with Doolittle.

The official spoke on condition of anonymity pending a public announcement in Doolittle’s Northern California district.

The development comes as Doolittle, in his ninth term, faced growing political pressure from fellow Republicans who considered him a liability because of his involvement, along with his wife Julie, in the Jack Abramoff influence-peddling investigation. House Republicans, still smarting from losing control of Congress in 2006, are eager to put that ethics taint behind them.

Blue America has been supporting Charlie Brown in his race for Doolittle’s seat, so this is great news for Charlie.  Your donation is appreciated.

Filed Under: Abramoff, Election 08, Scandals, The House

http://www.crooksandliars.com/

 (and that also means NOT a blogging sport).

Blog it a thousand times, brother! 

rich^kolker
Thu, 01/10/08

Thanks, Rich. Too many people want to keep candidates mired in concrete past, as if they can't take in new information and alter their perspectives. Edwards has learned (thank god, we need a President who will) and is now getting it. He is the most ardent fighter for progressive reform.

I'm not into bashing other candidates because Obama has a different style. i don't think it will work and I'm not sure he does either.

Sitka
Thu, 01/10/08

I'm here about a tenth of the time you are. So you can blog about it later too. ;-)

In the fall of 2005, John Edwards helped start a College for Everyone pilot program at Greene Central High School in Snow Hill, North Carolina.

At least Jimmy Carter has built more than one house. 

#9 * rdorgan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JFK got elected (if he did), because there was a Republican-caused recession going on. Same as now.

As Howard Dean said at the end of his campaign, "I'm sure I would disappoint you at some point, too" meaning that NOONE will satisfy us ALL the time. But in order of who will produce more satisfaction by standing up and fighting for progressive reform and disappoint the least, in order:

Edwards

Obama

Clinton

Hey audrey - have you checked your DFA Link mail yet? Not sure if you saw my post the other day that I left you some mail.

131

Thanks for posting that lindab!

Fantastic news

puddle
Thu, 01/10/08

RIght on. He won by the narrowest of margins. Because Eisenhower refused to stimulate the economy and elect Nixon. \

Also, let's admit JFK has been mythologized, and had many faults. As all humans do.

I'm here about a tenth of the time you are.

Hard to say without a clock. I drop in many times to find you all over a thread already.

But I must say that the bloggers who amuse me most are those who blog all the time about blogging too much. 

oh, forgot one thing before I go --

here's an example of CHANGE in one's attitude (of a certain African American young adult who didn't like the idea of a white guy like me purchasing a pizza):

Years ago, my wife and I were driving through the Mattapan area of Boston (predominately a AA neighborhood) to see a friend.  The friend had told us ahead of time that her refridgerator had just broken and my wife and I offered to pick up a pizza on the way.

In order to get a fresh pizza, we stopped at a pizzeria just blocks from her house.  I went inside to order it.  I ordered a large one and sat down on a stool.  Some AA young adults, six in all,  were clustered around an arcade machine.  One looked up and signaled to the other one and they moved towards me, encircling me in the corner where I had sat down.  They then suddenly got into an argument and one shoved the other into me, almost knocking me off the stool. The one who got shoved into me said "Excuse me" and snickered.

I righted myself up and said: "I understand. No harm done."  Then the one who did the shoving asked me where I came from.  I replied: "from out of town".  I then saw them come closer to me.  I sensed something was up and tried to reduce the tension by saying: "hey, it's Sunday, a day to rest and relax, ok ?".  The shoving one replied: "well, guess what, I work everyday, including Sundays".

Then the AA owner making the pizza yelled at me: "hey, I don't want any trouble in my shop !".  Well, since I was cornered, I couldn't exactly do anything at that point, like run or anything else.

It was then that my wife walked through the door and said: "What's taking you so long to pick up the piz.... What's going here ?"  I replied: "Vicki, I'm just waiting for the pizza I ordered to finish".

Then the AA youth who seemed to be the ring leader asked her: "You're with him ?" My wife replied: "Yes".  He then said: "Oh, ok, I'm sorry then for any misunderstanding". He then signaled to the others and they all backed away back to their arcade game.

I then approached the counter and purchased the pizza from the AA owner who's hands were shaking. 

My wife and I left the pizzaria and we went to our friend's house. 

Edwards

Obama

Clinton

Never mind that other the three, Edwards has the least record in that regard. 

#122 Indy Steve,

Calling someone naive, disengenuous or dishonest is what I object to.  I don't know when someone does that.  I know that Bill Clinton told a lie in his fairy tale accusation about Obama because NPR interviewed Obama and Obama gave the full statement. But, unless I hear a repost or counter statement or argument, I can't judge someone's motivations.

I really don't know how when the health industry is the biggest industry in this country that anyone is going to make it nonprofit, single payer, and cut out all the competition.  It doesn't seem possible to me, and from my perspective, the claim to do so seems unrealistic and extravagant; and again, from my perspective, to say that we will work together with the will of the citizens as the strongest persuader makes sense.

Interesting that we have such different perspectives, and frankly, good.  It make the discussion better and gives it some breadtah and depth. 

Where have you been the last year? The Dems tried everything to bring a few Rethugs in on Iraq and every legislation. It was a miserable failure of a year. All the rethugs currently in Congress (the vast majority) want to do is obstruct, obstruct, obstruct.  

I think you can kiss universal health care goodbye with an attitude of "unity" and compromise. It will be a fight to achieve. And I'm not sure we can even get it with Edwards. Obama doesn't even start the negotiations with a truly universal plan. That's not good negotiating strategy, let alone bold enough.

Too many people want to keep candidates mired in concrete past.

There's a word for it....

record: a report, list, or aggregate of actions or achievements 

Pat in Colorado
Thu, 01/10/08

Pat,

What would you call it? Obama knows from the last two years how it works in this Congress. He knows we need a majority (more than 60 in Senate) to get legislation passed. He is compromising BEFORE the negotiations begin (has the weakest health plan, for example).

The drug cos. and insurance cos. do not need to sit at the table. In fact, they should be excluded since they have a financial stake in distorting health care reform.

Obama knows this (he isn't dumb, for sure). He is using the unity message to gain votes in Iowa and NH (which were open to rethugs and indys). Clinton and Edwards got  most of the Democratic votes. We are nominating a Democrat in a primary. Later primaries are less fruitful for Obama's strategy. And yes, I think it is a strategy.

#142, Thanks for sharing that story rdorgan.  I've been there.

#144, been right here Indy Steve.  So, what's the answer?  I know the Republicans have been total obstructionists, many if not most without ethics, any intelligence or concept of this country as made up of many interests, some of them competing.

So, is this what you expect will continue, there's no other way?  It wasn't always this way, certainly not for most of my life.  It seems to me when we reach the extremes there has to be some way back to the middle.  How do we do this? 

I find it curious that the Edwards people attack Obama relentlessly, but rarely Hillary these days. Do they see her as the lesser of weevils? Or do they see Obama as the leader even though he's not? Or do they see him in second and covet that spot for Edwards?

136.

puddle
Thu, 01/10/08

RIght on. He won by the narrowest of margins. Because Eisenhower refused to stimulate the economy and elect Nixon. \

Also, let's admit JFK has been mythologized, and had many faults. As all humans do.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just to add: Bush LEARNED from history. He is going to stimulate the economy to the max (borrow, borrow, tax cut, tax cut) with the help of the FED lowering rates in order to help out the Repub. candidate.

to say that we will work together with the will of the citizens as the strongest persuader makes sense.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ya. It worked for Bush. Why not us?

In the fall of 2005, John Edwards helped start a College for Everyone pilot program at Greene Central High School in Snow Hill, North Carolina.

At least Jimmy Carter has built more than one house. 

THERE YOU GO , ANOTHER SNIDE REMARK.

#147  Sounds to me, Indy Steve, that we are discussing the process and the best way to go about it. There are probably many more than two ways to do this. 

Do you think anyone is going to be elected if they threaten to lock out the corporations?  Look what the media corps. did to Howard Dean when he talked about re-regulation?  They're still going after him.  Isn't the first requirement to get elected? 

MIke entered for '06 state Dem. convention while *driving a forklift* (decked out in safety gear). I'm serious.

Was working in the paper mill while still in high school (very common); however, those jobs are gone now/mills have shut down (or darn close to it). The men my age cannot find comparable union wages and benefits in ME--not with that piddly high school diploma (some dropped out). $50K+ bennies isn't bad for a 12th grade education. Their alternative is Wal-Mart, Lowe's, or Home Depot ($8.00 per hr.; and zero bennies).

Imagery and identity politics works w/many voters, unfortunately.

Yes, Mike supports Edwards (union-based "son of a millworker).

The (mostly male/sexist) union folks always clash here w/the feminists, P&J folks, and academics. Class, gender, & post-secondary educational status often intersect.

It can be messy.

One local Dem. member from a conservative rural area was running for a state house seat in '06...stated that he supported a living wage, as he thought it was time that women "didn't have to work."

He's around age 58 or so.

wtf

...and went back into the domestic sphere to raise kids, caregive elders, and do the housework routine. All *unwaged* labor, mind you.

I nearly *throttled him* right there at the county committee meeting!

Misogyny abounds within the so-called [un]Democratic party, BTW.

As Denise previously noted, it's a perceived threat to men (as well as to enmeshed women) when self-confident women utilize voice & behave assertively.

Shakes up status quo.

Too bad.

(and Billary didn't "find her voice" overnight...fat chance).

He lost by nearly 20%, so that tells 'ya what a pig his Rethug opponent was!

Bush LEARNED from history.

Except we all know that Bush himself learns nothing. GOP economicians have learned that they can irresponsibly borrow long enough to dump the mess onto the next administration.

Sitka
Thu, 01/10/08

Not an attack. I am not impressed with Obama's plans or his rhetoric of unity and hope. I think he is inspiring and even progressive, but I don't think he will achieve progressive reforms that way.

Clinton is a known quantity, right down to the sniffles. Edwards has a spotty record, I'll admit, but he has changed and is promising to fight for meaningful progressive reforms.

It's just like the past Congress. I don't expect rethugs to do the right thing, so I'm more pissed at the Conservative Dems who capitulated. They call it compromise. But there is a difference.

Indy, he may try. Don't think it's going to work this time. We're going to be hurting hard by Oct/Nov.

My take of Kerry's endorsement is, in addition to wanting to endorse a winner, it is all about defeating Clinton. Tne answer is strategy and how to defeat Clinton. It is a coup d e-tat

While Edwards is pitching much of the same stuff Obama is, Obama is light years ahead as a better candidate than Edwards and is ahead of Clinton in earned delegates.

Clinton is not the avid environmentalist that Kerry has become since his marriage to Theresa Heinz-Kerry who has held official positions in large environmental organizations.

So, if voters are split between Obama and Edwards, a Kerry endorsement always helps, especially in this situation. I suspect Kerry has previously spoken with Edwards before announcing his intentions.

All of course IMHO:))

THERE YOU GO , ANOTHER SNIDE REMARK.

Actually, it was an astute commentary that starting a pilot program in one high school hardly ranks as a presidency meriting achievement. 

Not an attack.

Of course not. An attack is when someone criticizes your guy. 

Pat in Colorado
Thu, 01/10/08

Pat,

The discussion is useful, so thanks for engaging. It is the process of achieving progressive change, and yes you have to get elected as ONE way of doing it. There are other ways like social movements, citizen lobbying, etc.

But is  more than the process that I'm critical of Obama. I think he's using frames incorrectly and not in a way to build progressive futures. He starts with a compromised position (like Pelosi and Reid) and will end up with mushy, terribly compromised legislation that may be worse than nothing at all. Health care with tax deductions but not universal for example.

On many issues from energy (he supports coal and nuclear) to Iraq, he seems too willing to compromise from the get-go. When you negotiate for a house or a car, if you start with a lowball offer, then you'll only get less.

Pat....

How do we know which candidate will reign in the Corp if they can't talk about it?

The voters first have to learn of the problem, and then decide that's what they want.

How do we know which candidate will reign in the Corp if they can't talk about it?

The trouble is, records speak louder than talk and none of them excel in that regard on that subject. 

Hope = optimism

For a candidate to call for optimism makes sense to me.

 I might also ask, why not ? Would it be better to pitch dispair which means to lose hope? I think not.

THERE YOU GO , ANOTHER SNIDE REMARK.

Actually, it was an astute commentary that starting a pilot program in one high school hardly ranks as a presidency meriting achievement. 

 Please spare the the "astute commentary" line.

a great initiative by edwards.

Audrey, being from NC, what is your take on the race?

 Please spare the the "astute commentary" line.

One person's snide remark is another's asute commentary. 

a great initiative by edwards.

great: unusually or comparatively large in size or dimensions

Since it was just one high school, call it a small initiative. 

Sitka is in full snide mode. Ignore him.

For a candidate to call for optimism makes sense to me.

For Edwards to still be asking people to make him the nominee is the perfect example of pitching hope. 

161.

The thing you are not understanding here Steve is that Obama is not selling a policy he knows cannot be done at this point in time.

That's why I believe in him, I have tru

st that he will do as he says rather than throw out that which he knows cannot be done -- no doubt in the future like single payer health care will be a doable policy.

Sitka is in full snide mode. Ignore him. 

Living by example obviously isn't your forte. 

#161 Indy Steve, I can't comment knowledgeably on how the universal health care situation would work best.  I've read that 20 percent of the people take up 80 percent of the budget.  I know someon whom I would diagnose with Munchausen's Syndrome that has probably cost the insurance company a million dollars. 

I know  a nurse awho says the clinics are like supermarkets with doctors being required to see 20 patients a day, and if patients have more than one problem, they dodn't see them at all.  My mother who was dying of athersclerosis had 14 operations in a two month period, and they had a speech therapist in there to help her.  It was finally the cardeologist who told me that she was full of athersclerosis.  

Indy Steve, there are soooo many problems with this health industry that without experts, without informed citizens, without an examination of the whole system, I don't see any solutions at all.

A president doesn't have to get the Congress to work together in the same way that Reid and Pelosi do.  You may well be right in that his strategy won't work, that the bar is set too low, but with the health industry being as powerful, as rich, as complicated and compromised as it is, I don't know  how any one person could begin to reform it.

And yes, I've read that coal gassification actually causes more pollution of ground water and soil than any other process, and here's where whoever is president has to get expert opinions form not only the scientists and industry but ecologists and environmentalists as well.  Obama may have been very misguieded in his support for these proc esses. 

But, I'm off for a while.   

Joan* In*Florida
Thu, 01/10/08

Hope and optimism are necessary but not sufficient. Edwards has hope/optimisim with a realistic sense of what it's going to take to get progressive change. Obama hasn't shown that to me yet. In fact, I am more worried after reading his issues pages that he is too willing to compromise from the beginning.

Compromise is necessary for legislation to pass. But don't start with it. It is what you use in the negotiating process to arrive at a compromise that doesn't sell out on essential principles (like universality in health care).

169.

sitka

Exactly. Edwards has optimism. He has evidently had that for the past four years and it has helped to drive him to where he is. Who can knock that?

Exactly. Edwards has optimism. He has evidently had that for the past four years and it has helped to drive him to where he is.

Are you referring to him finishing barely 2nd or solidly 3rd? 

Who can knock that?

If the Edwardiacs want to knock Obama's hope and optimism, they'd better be ready for the blowback. 

168.

Indy Steve
Thu, 01/10/08

Sitka is in full snide mode. Ignore him.
----------

He's in the same mode since yesterday (at least).
Partially I can understand him..., he sees no way out of current situation to vote for lesser evil AGAIN (as usual) or not to vote at all.

The way out I'm proposing he is not able to consider while been in that mode...., others can imagine to consider that even in regular mode..., lol.

The way out I'm proposing

What you propose is going back to the 18th century and starting over with Ron Paul. 

175.

sitka

If 2nd or 3rd is what Edwards ends up with, at least he tried and he has still made an impact in this country's politics, win, place or show.

Linda.....

I've only lived here four years, some of the peope were upset when Edwards didn't finish his term and ran for Pres. They said they felt cheated. This election, it feels like he has regained support. I think it is because he has grown so much. He has matured, and is taken as a serious, strong and caring. His personal life may have helped in that regard.

I didn't know anything about him when I moved here. I sort of considered him the "pretty boy" of the Dem Party that they were going to shove out there at people. Well, that didn't work too well for them, Now, I think John "gets it". Not Howard yet, but far closer than the other two. I've come to like him.

Nice NEW THREAD available for those interested.

BBL, off to a DEC meeting.

If 2nd or 3rd is what Edwards ends up with, at least he tried and he has still made an impact in this country's politics, win, place or show.

Same with Kucinich, Gravel, Biden, Dodd, and Richardson. 

I want them all to stay in so everyone -- and not just the early staters -- get to use their voice as they see fit.  

Pat...

Let me add...about his telling Howard to not come down here and tell us what to do. That's standard conversation, doesn't mean anything. My next door neighbor keeps telling me that I'm not too bad for a damned yankee. He kind of smiles,

This is pathetic . It really made me laugh.

How inept is this government

FBI wiretaps dropped due to unpaid bills

Lax FBI Money Controls Lead to Shutdown of Surveillance, Justice Department Audit Finds

LARA JAKES JORDAN
AP News

Jan 10, 2008 13:53 EST

Telephone companies have cut off FBI wiretaps used to eavesdrop on suspected criminals because of the bureau's repeated failures to pay phone bills on time.

A Justice Department audit released Thursday blamed the lost connections on the FBI's lax oversight of money used in undercover investigations. Poor supervision of the program also allowed one agent to steal $25,000, the audit said.

In at least one case, a wiretap used in a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act investigation "was halted due to untimely payment," the audit found. FISA wiretaps are used in the government's most sensitive and secretive criminal investigations, and allow eavesdropping on suspected terrorists or spies.

"We also found that late payments have resulted in telecommunications carriers actually disconnecting phone lines established to deliver surveillance results to the FBI, resulting in lost evidence," according to the audit by Inspector General Glenn A. Fine.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/mochila/FBI_wiretaps_dropped_due_to_unpaid__01102008.html

177.

Sitka
Thu, 01/10/08

Reply to this

The way out I'm proposing

What you propose is going back to the 18th century and starting over with Ron Paul.

----------------

You are too quick without even willing to listen up.
No need to start over from 18th century, especially because one won't be able too even if he/she wants.

What is needed however is a sincere attempt to try to understand what he is talking about. To be honest, even without been in such a mode it is not easy but with it that's simply impossible.
Is that easy task to teach in couple of sentences things he studied for 30 years!

And even that is not everything.
The main question Paul is not answering (and nobody asking!) is what will happen AFTER everybody achieves "full and absolute" personal freedom, what will happen then? What next?

one won't be able too even if he/she wants =
one won't be able to try even if he/she wants

about his telling Howard to not come down here and tell us what to do. That's standard conversation, doesn't mean anything.

Or laest it was standard conversation when the old time racists used to say that about "Yankee agitatuhs comin' down hyah ta stuh up the cuhluhed folk."

But I don't think I've ever heard northerners say they don't need southerners like Edwards, "coming up here and telling us what to do."

former
Thu, 01/10/08

In On Liberty, John Stuart Mill (the founder of modern libertarianism) stated that the central principle was maximum liberty as far as possible until one's liberty harms another. When you start to look at when that occurs, it is clear that individual liberties have serious limits which requires government (or collective) action. Ron Paul and other modern libertarians fail to acknowledge this central principle.

Sitka
Thu, 01/10/08

No, you just hear snide remarks about accents and such. Not to mention endless snide but non-substantive attacks on character.

No, you just hear snide remarks about accents and such. Not to mention endless snide but non-substantive attacks on character.

No Indy, that's what you're DOING.