Dean is first!

now we have ads on our blog? geez.

76 votes for cloture....now they will vote for the Bill. Doesn't look like there will be a filibuster.

Next vote will be for amendment to take out immunity. But 60 votes are needed for amendments as well. The complete capitulation is breathtaking in its depth and breadth.

Sad day for America. We have been betrayed by our own. Merry Christmas.

Ryan Payne posted this same message on several threads. I sent him this message below through the Link, if you would like to do the same.

http://www.dfalink.com/profile.php?id=27...

To: Ryan Payne
Date: Mon, December 17 @ 12:25 pm
From: Susan Rowe

Subject: FYI

There is no solicitations allowed of any products on the blog for America or the DFA-Link. You may want to apologize to the readers.

ref: www.democracyforamerica.com/tos...

Caving on Iraq. Capitulation on FISA. Collapse on energy and curbing global warming. Fouled out on the Farm Bill. Wimpy on Federal omnibus funding Bill.

Is there ANY reason we should help fund, work for or vote for this kind of behavior?

In Bill Clinton's own words:  We Need New Experience in Washington

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMlrSG1xb5k

The fate of the imperiled polar bear will be decided by the Bush

Administration within the next 21 days -- very possibly during

Christmas week!



Once that decision is made, NRDC must be ready to spring into

immediate legal action for the sake of polar bear survival.

That's why we're urgently asking you to make an emergency

holiday donation right now:

http://www.nrdconline.org/ct/ZpwTqcs14PoJ/



The polar bear is in mortal danger. Every day, its future slips

away as the melting of the Arctic sea ice accelerates from

global warming.



All of Alaska's polar bears could be extinct in less than 50

years -- along with two-thirds of the world's entire polar bear

population.



There is still hope if the Bush Administration takes life-saving

action now. But that won't happen unless we can take the

Administration back to court and MAKE them do the right thing

for polar bears.



And that is why your immediate holiday donation is so critical:

http://www.nrdconline.org/ct/ZpwTqcs14PoJ/



In the next 21 days, the Administration will make a final

decision about whether or not to protect the polar bear under

the Endangered Species Act.



Here are the two scenarios most likely to happen:



If the Administration says NO to polar bear protection, then

NRDC will immediately challenge that disastrous decision in

federal court.



But even if the Administration says YES to polar bear

protection, they will almost certainly fail to safeguard the

bear's "critical habitat" against the global warming pollution

that is destroying it. That means NRDC will have to fight in

court to win those safeguards for melting habitat.



Simply put: no matter what the Bush Administration decides this

month, we must be fully prepared to launch a new campaign of

courtroom action that gives the polar bear a fighting chance

against the specter of extinction.



We simply cannot mount that kind of courtroom campaign without

your support. I urge you to make your tax-deductible holiday

donation now -- when it can make the biggest difference for

polar bears: http://www.nrdconline.org/ct/ZpwTqcs14PoJ/



It's been a favorite tactic of this Administration to save some

of its worst environmental decisions for the busy holiday

season, hoping that the American people will be too preoccupied

to pay attention.



But they are underestimating NRDC and our 1.2 million members

and online activists. With your support, we will not be caught

off guard. We will be ready to take swift and effective action

in order to fend off the unthinkable: the extinction of the

polar bear from the planet.



This holiday season, please give the gift that will mean the

most for generations to come -- because a world without polar

bears is simply unimaginable:

http://www.nrdconline.org/ct/ZpwTqcs14PoJ/



Sincerely,



Frances Beinecke

President

Natural Resources Defense Council



P.S. Remember, the online contribution you make today will help

NRDC work right through the holidays to give polar bears a

fighting chance: http://www.nrdconline.org/ct/ZpwTqcs14PoJ/



 

* rdorgan
Mon, 12/17/07

Yes, the majority of Maine's registered voters are "unaffiliated".

http://tinyurl.com/3bc8qc 

"Independent Party" doesn't exist.  Nada.

Caucus is Feb. 10th (late--won't count for squat, after Super Tuesday ).

Gov. Baldacci endorsed Billary this week, which is a hoot--he has no clout w/the base. 

We're focused upon booting Collins's complicit ass *out*, and electing Tom Allen in the general...bigtime.

 Tom's a "good Dem".

www.tomallen.org

Caucuses are open (can register same day--and/or vote absentee, upwards to 5 weeks in advance).

Our prisoners can vote--as can college students (can claim residency status here (if attending in Maine, or out of state). 

Hardly any will attend (I am still unaffiliated, BTW)--state Dem. party is in a shambles.

Susan wrote "There is no solicitations allowed of any products on the blog for America or the DFA-Link. You may want to apologize to the readers."

Remember that guy on Dean for America who kept posting a link to the video he created of him and the Dean supporting woman he fell in love with?  He wanted us to vote for his entry in a contest then, too.  What a hoot.

9.

mainefem -

Thanks for that response.  Yeah, NE, not the dem or repub bastions like people outside this area tend to think of -- unaffiliated (and growing) bastions.

Now REID HIMSELF is trying to shut Dodd up. Requiring a 60 vote majority on germane amendments. Reid doesn't want a filibuster. It is outrageous.

IndySteve

http://www.gazetteonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071215/IOWACAUCUS/312090731/1011/IOWACAUCUS

Here is the link to the event Edwards had. Me in the far left of the photo behind Elizabeth.

I repeat that I think we have a strong field, that there are many of the candidates that would be able to win and deliver the change they are advocating. so it boils down to the politics of the individuals and do they represent your interests or someone elses, and let the majority rule.John Edwards is closest to the fight I've been in for decades and I'm happy to team with him.

sp=here.

Our 17 yr. olds can register to vote (provided they reach majority by the Nov.  general--they're complacent as hell.

The state legislative Rethugs attempted to overturn the "residency" status (collegiate) verbiage last year (no proof of voter fraud).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa's_2nd_congressional_district

The 2nd Iowan Congressional District generally covers the most of the southeastern part of the state (map), some important cities in the district include Iowa City, and Cedar Rapids. It is currently represented by Democrat David Loebsack, a professor of political science at Cornell College, Iowa.

...

+++

Rep Loebsack just endorsed:

http://www.gazetteonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071217/NEWS/992495289

...

the 2nd District Iowa congressman joins 19 state legislators, Iowa Attorney General Tom Miller, and State Treasurer Mike Fitzgerald is supporting the Illinois senator

...

My DFA list finalist Congressman Braley is backing Edwards.

Senator Boxer is up.

State Dem party's LOST over 10K members since '04; and are entrenched in denial (dysfunctional as hell).

I'm one of 'em. If (and only if) Billary seems to be gaining traction near the caucuses, I'll re-enroll; and cast an absentee caucus ballot.

My city hall is 1/8 mi. away.

You're welcome--need to slip-n-slide to work.  Gulp.

Phil Specht
Mon, 12/17/07

Awesome!! Good going, Phil. Thanks for posting that here and for the work you're doing on the ground in Iowa. Edwards is lucky to have you on his team.

I agree all would be strong contenders. Just that some are better than others! ;-)

Confusion reigns supreme on the floor of the Senate this morning.  Closure succeeds. Who is to speak first. When will Dodd's amendment be brought up. Reid suggests 60 votes required on everything for this bill and amendments. And of course Boxer is having her say -- good for her.

At least it appears our concerns over the phone co immunity have been at least heard loud and clear in Washington to most Dems and to no Repugs. Business as usual.

8.

Indy Steve
Mon, 12/17/07

Caving on Iraq. Capitulation on FISA. Collapse on energy and curbing global warming. Fouled out on the Farm Bill. Wimpy on Federal omnibus funding Bill.

Is there ANY reason we should help fund, work for or vote for this kind of behavior?
-----------
...and the only ones!

Don't forget "lifelong Democrats" still have almost a year to find out even more (and likely even worse) "this kind of behavior"...

As for the "Is there ANY reason...?", of course not, NONE..., NADA..., lol.

That's why...vote Ron Paul!

Go Phil. As Steve wrote, Edwards is very fortunate to  have you on his team. Stay warm.

Joan* In*Florida
Mon, 12/17/07

Only 10 voted against cloture. Have our "concern's" really been heard? i think we've been played. And for those who keep coming back for more, they're masochists. They have given us lip service and lies on all of this from "no iraq funding until next year" to protecting telcom cos. who illegally spied on us.

I don't think they've listened AT ALL.

former
Mon, 12/17/07

Ron Paul is a libertetarian freak. Would do away with most of our protections and let the market rule our lives. No thanks.

Boxer is getting better and better. As a forceful speaker and in taking principled stands.

Far better than her California colleague.

If I get bored over the holidays, I'm going to write the automatic BFA generator, which will generate threads with typical comments from each of us.

I look forward to the caucuses, which will at least kick the can along the road a bit further. 

rich^kolker
Mon, 12/17/07

Rich, LOL.

Do ya think we repeat ourselves a bit lately? I'll just put some standard retorts in Word to cut and paste!

Rich wrote "If I get bored over the holidays, I'm going to write the automatic BFA generator, which will generate threads with typical comments from each of us."

Looks like you've got it working already.

On behalf of the blog, Phil deserves a HOWARDLY. Let's give him one. Anyone object? Since he's too modest to give one to himself.

HOWARDLY

Is that kind of like ?:

 http://www.ukcritic.com/grinch.html

'It came without ribbons! It came without tags!'
'It came without packages, boxes or bags!'

Didn't anyone notice, W is sporting another booboo on his forhead?  

Someone has got to take his handlebars away from him when he's drinking! 

1:23PM

Didn't anyone notice, W is sporting another booboo on his forhead?

Someone has got to take his handlebars away from him when he's drinking!

Sen. Whitehouse a total disappointment. His argument for giving the immunity is that they were "instructed" to give up the records and cannot be held responsible for their actions.

IMHO if they are not responsible, then why do they need immunity??

Their false argument could subsequently apply to any crime. Dodd is 100% right in his assertion that to give immunity is a direct hit on the rule of law.

Nobody who says they were told to break the law should not be held responsible for their crimes, be they shoplifting or murder.

I have said it for a long time, Phil is a force to be reconned with.

He is gracious and caring and a darn good lookin' guy!!!

Let your son know all you do for people.

A HOWARDLY FOR PHIL.

Joan* In*Florida
Mon, 12/17/07

And did he mention that some other TELCOMs did NOT comply? Only a few which he now wants to give immunity to. BTW, Nelson voted for cloture. DINO.

step right up !

come one, come ALL !

hill-a-copter rides !

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/17/wuspols217.xml

By Toby Harnden in Washington

Hillary Clinton took to the skies yesterday in a "Hill-A-Copter" being used to fly her across Iowa in a five-day dash she hopes will snuff out the challenge of Barack Obama.

Her plan was initially shelved by freezing weather, forcing her to contemplate the ignominy of travelling by bus before meteorologists gave the helicopter trip a last-minute thumbs up.

...

29.

On behalf of the blog, Phil deserves a HOWARDLY. Let's give him one. Anyone object? Since he's too modest to give one to himself.  

You bet Steve!

Whether one supports Edwards or not, Phil is doing for his candidate what many here did for Dean in 2004. And who could argue that Edwards would not make a formidable presidential nominee and effective president.

Kudos to Phil!

Dodd is too nice for his own good. He just interrrupted himself and gave the floor to Feinstein who is making the case AGAINST HIM. Sheesh.

Clinton ally Bob Kerry on par with Mark Penn - sliming Obama.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/1...

Managing a Post-Feb. 5 Campaign
By ADAM NAGOURNEY
Published: December 17, 2007

COLFAX, Iowa – For most of the year, two working assumptions have guided the strategic decisions of the major presidential campaigns. The first was that a Republican and Democratic nominee would for all and intents purposes be known after Feb. 5, when there are primaries and caucuses in more than 20 states. The second was that there will only – as the line goes – be three tickets out of Iowa; just three candidates from each party would survive the caucuses here on Jan. 3 and move on to New Hampshire, with the rest of the field being eliminated.

As campaigns try to keep up with this fast-paced, multi-layered campaign, there is growing sense among Republicans that for their contest at least — and perhaps for Democrats — Feb. 5 may not be the end of the line. And at the same time, Democrats are looking at a scenario where only two of their candidates emerge out of this state.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/17/us/pol...

Yep, Phil deserves a HOWARDLY

(now if he worked with horses, I'd say he deserves a PHILLY too)

beda, bada, boo...............................?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOjtt_8p9Y0

Here are the noble TEN who voted for cloture on FISA. 76 voted for FISA without immunity.

NAYs ---10Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Cardin (D-MD)
Dodd (D-CT)
Feingold (D-WI)
Harkin (D-IA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Wyden (D-OR)

 Steve I'm going to be doing my Howardly work chairing the Congressional District Platform Committee after the caucuses. I haven't earned one yet.

just took a push poll

Club For Growth or Penn?

Those voting for immunity and spying on US citizens 

YEAs ---76

mary vb -

Another eVETful prez campaign with swiftboating.

Plantoon's composition -- Kerrey, Penn, Sheehan, etc.

Sorry for the long list, but it shows how complete the capitulation is.  35 Dems voting for, including Leahy, Webb and Tester. So much for the Constitution and progressive leadership.

"when Obama was a State Senator he was one of fifteen votes against curtailing predatory lending, does that effect your support for him?"

typo - Sheehan s/b - Shaheen

When Kerry helicoptered across Iowa in Dec. 2003 it reminded voters of his Vietnam service. Clinton is coming to Elkader this week and my cows get spooked by helicopters. I hope she comes from some other direction.

51.

what about HC using something like this then ? would be quietier ?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THEcWrznicY

Did they pass the bill or just invoke cloture?

I need to get a dish.

The complete capitulation is breathtaking in its depth and breadth.

We need to stop accusing RepubliDems of capitulation when what they're really guilty of is complicity.

They don't collaborate with Bush and the GOP because they're afraid . They do it because they too are corrupt.

Has the House already passed the amnesty FISA bill? If not, the maybe there is hope to stop it since only about 25% of House Dems are Republiclones as compared to 50% in the Senate.

Kennedy, Tester, Webb and Whitehouse - surprised about their *yea* votes.

Happy Howardly Phil :)

Kennedy, Tester, Webb and Whitehouse - surprised about their *yea* votes.

Kennedy been all but gone for a long time. Tester's and Webb's main redeeming feature has always been little more than the "D" after their names. 

Here is Bob Kerrey's email addy. At least it was when I corresponded with him. If you have a beef over his smarmy comments about Obama -- pls email him. He emails you back personally. I was polite.

"Bob Kerrey"

35 Dems voting for, including Leahy

Leahey showed his true self by breaking his word to hold up the Mukasey nomination until Bush came clean on gonzogate. 

here it is.

sheesh - so much for multitasking.


Kerrey@newschool.edu

You have to work harder than blogging or introducing a candidate to earn a Howardly. I'm not going to tarnish the hard work of previous winners with that effort earning one.

how about today's HOWARDLY going to Chris Dodd?

I'm so far past being surprised or angered by the perfidy of most DCDems.

They feel they owe liberals nothing these days -- but feel liberals still owe them their votes. And there are, amazingly, liberals who still agree with them about it.

http://www.nyobserver.com/2007/tom-robbins-disses-n-y-times-ignoring-obama

24.

Indy Steve
Mon, 12/17/07

Ron Paul is a libertetarian freak. Would do away with most of our protections and let the market rule our lives. No thanks.
-------------

Oh boy...., confusions...., all around.

Government has nothing to protect us with...EXCEPT what WE GAVE it to them...to "protect" us back..., lol!

Then give NOTHING to them, - we'will be able to "protect" ourself.

1411
As far as supporting Dems.
I don't see any difference between Dems and Repubs except over the hot button issues of abortion and gay rights.
The next President will appoint three Supreme Court justices as Souter, Ginzburg and Stevens will probably be leaving.
If any Repub gets elected, choice and any chance of rights for G&Ls will be gone.

From the who cares section!
Ron Paul's brother David is a retired Lutheran minister from the Detroit area and is the assistanct pastor at the church we sometimes attend in Grand Rapids (Trinity Lutheran Church (TLC)).
TLC is very active in providing social needs for those less fortunate then others. Pastor David has been a big part of it. When David had a minor stroke, Ron showed up. No one knew who he was.
I do not favor the Libertarian model of every person for themselves. I do like the fact that Ron was just a quite, concerned brother and not a politican. I think his government model is unworkable and flawed and will lead to more suffering as the have-nots are even more discarded. But he certainly is not a "me" person like Bill "so many interns, so little time" Clinton.

former you and your candidate are a good match

I prefer to think that we as a community can act through our government, but watching these votes it appears the Constitution is just a piece of paper

right now I need to find out who is doing the push polling here that puts Edwards and Obama in a bad light.

The next President will appoint three Supreme Court justices as Souter, Ginzburg and Stevens will probably be leaving.
If any Repub gets elected, choice and any chance of rights for G&Ls will be gone.

I refuse to ever be intimidated again into supporting bad Democrats with the fear of worse Republicans.

And remember, it was the Dems on the Supreme Court who voted to let developers steal people's property a few years ago -- and will probably eventually rubberstamp all of Bush's violations of the Constitution. Collaboration with corruption doesn't stop  with Congress. 

54.

Sitka
Mon, 12/17/07

The complete capitulation is breathtaking in its depth and breadth.
-----------

We need to stop accusing RepubliDems of capitulation when what they're really guilty of is complicity.

They don't collaborate with Bush and the GOP because they're afraid . They do it because they too are corrupt.
**************

???
...lol, they DO collaborate with Bush&Co. DESPITE they're afraid.

We need to stop accusing "RepubliDems" of complicity because they ARE NOT guilty at all. They ARE what they ARE (and always WERE!), - the "Republicans light" .

65,
Nice thought but first we have to elect those who are willing to roll back power.
Only one candidate is willing to do that and that is Dodd.
All the others want to keep if not enhance their power.
The only way to truly open up the process is to make all election financing public. Otherwise, those who buy their politicians will win every time.
The Libertarians motto is no government activity. Do we really want any more corporate abuse then we have now?
Or better yet...do we want folks like me who in their business days would gleefully rape, pillage and plunder for the slightest business advantage.
Everyone has their own role for Government. I think the role of government is defined by the biblical parable of the good shepard; who will not waver keeping the wolves from eating his flock.
Most of the time, the wolves will eventually eat the sheep. But they should to this without government help. Some call it leveling the playing field.

right now I need to find out who is doing the push polling here that puts Edwards and Obama in a bad light.

+++

Phil -

If you do find out, you'll have to accept the HOWARDLY after all.

We've seen under Bush what less regulation of corporate America means. I shudder to think what DEregulation under Paul would mean. 

Wow, Kennedy on fire: "by threatening to veto the Bill if it doesn't have immunity, The President is willing to put Americans at risk in order to protect the phone companies!"

Eloguent and CORRECT framing!!

right now I need to find out who is doing the push polling here that puts Edwards and Obama in a bad light.

Please tell us about it  -- again if you alrady have. 

Wow, Kennedy on fire: "by threatening to veto the Bill if it doesn't have immunity, The President is willing to put Americans at risk in order to protect the phone companies!"

Eloguent and CORRECT framing!!

If Kennedy is using that as an excuse for having voted with Bush, it's a lame one. 

67.

Phil Specht
Mon, 12/17/07

former you and your candidate are a good match
--------

...lol, that's always like this, how can that be otherwise?!



I prefer to think that we as a community can act through our government, but watching these votes it appears the Constitution is just a piece of paper
--------

"Preferable" thinking is convenient..., but not always reflects reality...
It's not just "appears", IT IS...for ANY constitution...sooner or later.

After all, Phil, I believe everything is going to be Ok, anyway..., 'cause this Country and it's People have been ripen fast!

Edward Kennedy is making an extremely strong argument against giving phone cos immunity.

He also added that this would only be the beginning in asking for immunity for everything they have done that is illegal -- a point was not argued by Whitehouse who contends we need to protect these poor phone companies who did no wrong but would go broke if they had to go to court and lose. Ha! Whitehouse makes no sense, yet being a former successful prosecutor you would have to wonder whose pocket he is in.

These arguments in the Senate this week are so very important, not just in this instance, but in setting any dangerous precedents that would allow the Bush crooks off the hook when they leave office.

Edward Kennedy is making an extremely strong argument against giving phone cos immunity.

Then why did he just vote for cloture? He could have argued against it much more effectively by helping Dodd filibuster. 

1411
As far as supporting Dems.
I don't see any difference between Dems and Repubs

~~~~~~~~~~~

:28

to think that there is a shred of truth to that line is pretty disgusting, but in reality our Party is full of great leaders working for the betterment of mankind and damn few in theirs

72.

Sitka
Mon, 12/17/07

We've seen under Bush what less regulation of corporate America means. I shudder to think what DEregulation under Paul would mean.
--------

Don't shudder..., it would mean exactly the Dean's way, the People's self-regulation.

67. 

a detective is a work, to see if there's "the game afoot"

(good luck Phil)

Don't shudder..., it would mean exactly the Dean's way, the People's self-regulation.

If Dean knew you are using him to sell Ron Paul he'd probably forget his oath to "do no harm" and punch you in the nose. 

OOPS:

have been ripen fast! = have been ripening fast!

23.

Only 10 voted against cloture. Have our "concern's" really been heard? i think we've been played.

You may be correct Steve, but I always try not to be paranoid (not saying you are, just me.)

Kennedy said the reason he voted No was because he thought they do need to do something with this bill before they leave. I don't see that, since the other bill doesn't sunset until Feb. Perhaps they are concerned over how much Bush will use it in the meantime. I have no doubt they are intercepting every Dem's phone conversations and emails.

I had wished that cloture would have failed and a new bill concocted next year. We just have to see how it plays out. It certainly is exposing every Repug for the rubber stamps they are. They will do anything to keep Bush and  Admin from leaving open any evidence that there is laying around, like the testimony of phone cos.

82.

Sitka
Mon, 12/17/07

If Dean knew you are using him to sell Ron Paul he'd probably forget his oath to "do no harm" and punch you in the nose.
---------

...lol, not sure, not sure at all.

but in reality our Party is full of great leaders working for the betterment of mankind and damn few in theirs

"Full of great leaders" is a stretch. 

In reality, few of them are great leaders, but maybe 50% of Dems in the Senate and 75% in the House want to better mankind. They just need to stop backslapping with the rest who are as corrupt as any Republican.

In Jan 2009 we will see how phony these Repugs are. Will they say our new Dem prez will have the same power as Bush?

That's laughable. Of course, they will argue vehemently NO.

82.

Sitka
Mon, 12/17/07

...you are using him to sell Ron Paul...
---------
On the more serious note..., convictions, beliefs CAN'T be sold or bought to became one's OWN...., it must be realized!

Joan* In*Florida
Mon, 12/17/07

Too much BAD STUFF happening here in the rush to go home for Christmas. Iraq funding, energy collapse, farm Bill crap, now FISA. There is reason to be paranoid. This Congress has failed.

Indy--I think the strategy is to extend this long enough so the business community comes to an understanding of how detrimental this behavior to their interests is.

Whitehouse, Boxer and Kennedy have all spoken elloquently against the law that's on tap.  How do we get this kind of discussion?   

68,
That is the only ruling I can think of where the moderate Dem justices went nuts. I read the ruling over and over again because this affects property rights all across the country.
Stevens seems almost incoherent in his logic.
Essentially, the roles are reversed.

Do we think we will get a better set of judges appointed byRomney, McCain or RudyG. appointment?

We will work hard to support our candidate of choice. After the Dem blood letting is done, we will have to make a choice on election day. I don't like most of them but we all will make a choice in November 2009.
The judge question is the meatiest as it relates to our civil rights. If by that time it doesn't seem to matter (does one screwed up ruling delete the possibly of Rvw being overtruned?) then I will stay home.
That is the main choice. If RvW is to remain then vote for Dems, else vote Repub. A shallow single-issue topic but is the current division.

You KNOW you're on the WRONG side when John Cornyn agrees with you! On the floor now talking in favor of spying and protecting phone cos.

http://www.cspan.org/watch/cs_cspan2_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS2

How stupid are Dems?

In Jan 2009 we will see how phony these Repugs are. Will they say our new Dem prez will have the same power as Bush?

It's sad that our only hope is Republicans will strip the powers Bush has been allowed to usurp from the Democratic president who inherits them. 

The real threat of this legislation is to international commercial and financial communications.  The emphasis on Americans is sort of a subterfuge.

What do you think is going to be the effect on international commercial 

relations once they cotton on to the fact that they're being monitored? 

Do we think we will get a better set of judges appointed byRomney, McCain or RudyG. appointment?

On the other hand, you can't assume you'll get better judges from a Democrat. It's a matter of trust in them; and that commodity is in ever shorter supply these days.

It's gotten to be a transparent habit of DCDems to wait until a recess is imminent and then use that as an excuse to shove through every bill they've said they're against.

Monica, you're breaking up. Use wordwrap.....

Sitka
Mon, 12/17/07

And then skulk back home, and trumpet how much they've accomplished!

Unfortunately, most people have NO CLUE about the details. They're too busy shopping.

Sitka(93),
The problem is deeprer then that. When Congress capitulated on the Iraq War vote, they essentially put a "closed" sign on Capital Hill.
Once poweris taken away, it is very hard to get it back. It won't happen by nominating the same folks who participated in giving power away. No one is perfect but someone like Dodd Kucinich or Obama are the most likely change agents. Edwards talks a good fight and he has been talking and working populist issues for a long time. I was with him at a couple of ACORN rallies and he seems to be really genuine in his desire to help everyone. But then again..are we all just another jury?

And then skulk back home, and trumpet how much they've accomplished!

Unfortunately, most people have NO CLUE about the details. They're too busy shopping.

Well, the internet crowd knows what they're up to. And it was such people who gave them their trust and put them over the top last year. Some will still help them next year despite the litany of betrayel, but many (perhaps more) won't.

Republicans see the FISA issue as supportive of two propositions on which they stake their carreers--the antagonism towards foreigners (everybody's talking about giving special protection to Americans) and the extent to which "protection" trumps the law--in this case, the Constitution. 

The law and order party actually welcomes attacks on the Constitutions because the Constitution places limits on authorities and what Republicans want to do is place restrictions on underlings.

That Sessions proclaimed that some people are more interested in protecting the Constitution than the people was telling.  I think we need to exploit that the Republican commitment to "law" is rather selective.  The only laws they want to support are the laws that suppress someone else. 

Edwards talks a good fight and he has been talking and working populist issues for a long time. I was with him at a couple of ACORN rallies and he seems to be really genuine in his desire to help everyone.

He seems genuine because he's a trial lawyer who is very talented at convincing juries (think Johnny Cochran.) If his Senate record matched his campaign rhetoric I'd probably be on his bandwagon in a heartbeat rather than an implaccable opponent.

That Sessions proclaimed that some people are more interested in protecting the Constitution than the people was telling. 

That is pretty flagrant. Democratic collaborators prefer the softer approach of saying, "If we don't give Bush what he wants, he'll take it anyway."

Ron Wyden says that the support for this legislation is extremely flimsy.

92.

Indy Steve
Mon, 12/17/07

........
How stupid are Dems?
---------

Wishful thinking, imo.

If some are stupid that's not Demos but those who support them.

Sitka
Mon, 12/17/07

Living in the past.

former
Mon, 12/17/07

Good luck with Ron Paul. Except for Iraq, he shares none of what we believe here. Going backwards, former.

107.

Indy Steve
Mon, 12/17/07


Good luck with Ron Paul....Going backwards, former.
-------

???
remember "Free Spirit"?
remember her "spiral" idea?

Ron Wyden also says that he is working with his amendment so that it WILL not have any unintended consequences.

That's a joke. The entire bill has unintended consequences. I'll bet he votes FOR the bill after all his naysayer.

To Wyden: It's actions that count, not actions.

Ron Wyden also says that he is working with his amendment so that it WILL not have any unintended consequences.

That's a joke. The entire bill has unintended consequences. I'll bet he votes FOR the bill after all his naysayer.

To Wyden: It's actions that count, not actions.

Pardon Wydon

It's actions that count, not useless words.

That would also go for Feinstein.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071217/ap_po/on_deadline_experience_1

ON DEADLINE: Clinton '92 vs. Obama '08

By RON FOURNIER, Associated Press Writer

4 minutes ago

SPRINGFIELD, Ill. - Bill Clinton says Sen. Barack Obama is a callow, highly ambitious political prodigy who is asking voters to "roll the dice" and elect him president.

He should know — that's a fair description of Clinton when he sought the presidency in 1992.

The fact that the former president is stealing a page from the same Republican playbook used against him 15 years ago underscores the threat Obama poses to the candidacy of Clinton's wife, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York.

...

The blog is crashing Firefox.  It still doesn't like to wrap properly in Opera.  Now McConnell is talking about sanctions against Burma.  

Wyden yielding time to Dodd.  

Why are Senators prohibited from looking at government documents?

This is insane. 

fyi - new Front thread

Living in the past.

Politician's records are indeed what they've done in the past. And they're a truer indication of what they'll do in the future than what they say in the present.

The art of being a politician is being like the gambler (know when to hold, fold or run). For Dems it has moved to take the money and run.
Edwards may be a hollow lawyer except he has done a lot to help those in poverty. He was involved in raising the minimum wage before he became a Congressman.
But there is always doubts that there is some amount of self-serving in his efforts.
He was appointed to be the first head of the UNC Poverty Center and left less then two years later with much fanfare about working to reduce poverty; and not much accomplished. A legitimate question deals with this being a political deal to keep his name in the limelight.
He did participate in ACORN events before and after the 2004 election and he worked hard to get the minimum wage increased in his own state. I googled a couple of sites about this and the discussion is mixed. Some say the center did a lot; others say it was used to bolster Edwards presidential aspirations.
That may be his biggest obstacle; folks don't really trust him - or trust him less then most politicans.
I have been with him on two seperate events to raise the minimum wage and he worked hard to keep the needs of the poor visible.
But there are always questions about Edwards; his financial dealings with the trust he led. His sell-out vote on the Iraq War.
An argument can be made that his issues agenda is not very compelling. He wants to stay just to the left of Hillary but runs right into Obama who is more trustworthy (to me).
I am a native Chicagoan and am very familiar with Obama's effort as a community advocate. I have familiy in the city dealing with the issues Obama dealt with and it isn't very pretty. Getting shot up in Nam may have been easier then dealing with the constant gang warfare and violence in general.
But the biggest problem is getting people to give a damn because in order to care, they have to think the situation will improve. Obama gave folks hope that things can get better. Edwards is a great speaker to us the jury; but in the end, people don't have a sense that things can change. Obama demands things from his audience other then support. Edwards talks great and is an advocate but there isn't much of a call for action.

I like Kucinich and Dodd a lot. If neither of them makes it, I hope Obama gets the nod.