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Going Undercover at a Ron Paul Campaign Event
Linked to groups: Greater Kansas City Democracy for America
A report from an undercover liberal/progressive at a Kansas City area Ron Paul campaign event.
Last night the inestimable Murph and I put on our crack journalist hats and attended a meeting of Ron Paul supporters presenting campaign training for Missouri and Kansas. We wanted to get a feel for how well they are prepared, how many supporters they have, and also, of course, simply for the thrill of doing undercover work as a card-carrying member of the DNC at a GOP campaign event. You never know when some aggressive staffers will attempt to manhandle you out of the building or something.
My first impression was the size of the crowd- Johnson County, Kansas, which covers a bunch of Kansas City suburbs just south of the city, is about as red as a place can get. It is the fastest-growing and most populated county in the state, and ranks 43rd in highest per-capita income in the entire country. There are places here where Hummers, Porsches, and Ferraris are a common sight. The turnout for this particular event, billed as grassroots training, was pitiful considering the blood-red status if the area- Murph counted 35 people when we walked in, with 5 or so stragglers coming in late.
Ever since I started having regular running battles with Ron Paul supporters on this site and elsewhere, I have wondered who these folks are. It's not like Ron Paul has always had a huge, nationwide grassroots following, so who are these people? Where did they come from?
Here's my unscientific, pseudo-sociological assessment of the crowd last night; there were 4 or 5 "crazy old men"(you know the type, those guys who seem to have lost the acquaintance of not only a comb, but clearly a chunk of their sanity), quite a few young guys with that ill-dressed, brush-cut look that screams former Bush supporter, and a smattering of NASCAR types ranging from just out of high school to one foot in the grave. Suffice it to say Murph and I were clearly the only guys with fashion sense in the whole room, despite the 25% or so attendees under 25.
If I were to sum the crowd up in one word, it would be fringe.
One guy seemed like a professional handler of some kind, and a few of those standing seemed to be campaign staffers . The handler arranged the seating and stood in the rear, arms crossed, ensuring everyone signed in on a notepad.
The speaker was one of those soccer mom types, and she was clearly unprepared for the meeting. Actually Murph and I split after 15 minutes of watching her fumble her login to the Ron Paul website on the large projector screen (even stopping to login to her Yahoo mail for her username!) The purpose of the gathering was to watch three 40-minute training videos, but once we saw they were easily accessible online, the tedium got the better of us and we left. You can find those videos on the Ron Paul website with registration, or go here to view them without providing personal data.
As to the presentation, the main theme seemed to be contacting as many Republicans and Independents as possible, and making sure they were registered with the GOP so they can vote in the primaries. Per "soccer mom" it seems anyone with GOP connections can buy Republican voter lists online for the entire Kansas City area for $400, though she said the intention was only to buy specific targeted neighborhoods. She actually said that the central office instructed them not to "mess with Democrats" at all, which makes sense. They would have to sell the Republican party to these voters, attempting to entice turncoats to participate in the KS/MO primaries. My guess is that dog won't hunt.
One astute older gentleman in what seemed like a bright yellow raver shirt asked the $64,000 question; why put a lot of effort into the primaries when it's likely the early primaries (Nevada, Michigan, Florida, and South Carolina just to name a few) will crown the nominee prior to Super Tuesday, February 5th? None of the presenters or staff could answer this, which is likely why the meeting seemed so slapdash and unorganized.
Overall, it seemed clear that the Ron Paul operation is relying on fringe groups culled online for their grassroots efforts. It was also clear that the campaign was just hitting the ground in the KC metro area, and that the primary effort here might very well be wasted.
In my personal opinion, any group that unprofessional and disorganized is hardly a threat. I expected swarms of folks wishing to learn about Dr. Paul's campaign. What we got was a bunch of disparate crazies and an ill-prepared soccer mom. If Ron Paul finds a way to outlast the early primary states, it's likely he'll get crushed in the KC area without a huge amount of help from the national party apparatus.
I for one applaud Ron Paul for his foreign policy views and for having the guts to stand up to the power machines ...........his domestic ones however are almost as scary as the other candidates...................
Hey Mike - Let's not leave out Huckabee. Simmering
under that great sense of humor is a complete
wingnut who only believes in creationism. No more
wingnuts!!!!
mary vb
Thu, 11/29/07
9:32 am
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great post mary and hope your holidays were good.............I have republican roots and am amazed just how low that party, its candidates and many supporters have sunk.............
Fox wrote “Good news!!! U.S. economic growth fastest in four years GDP for third quarter steamed ahead at revised 4.9 percent rate"
For wealthy investors, the news could not be better. Now on to other business news:
“U.S. foreclosure filings nearly doubled in October from the same month last year, the latest sign many homeowners are falling behind on mortgage payments and increasingly losing their homes, according to a mortgage research company.
“Ohio's foreclosure rate remained among the highest in the country.
“A total of 224,451 foreclosure filings were reported nationwide in October, up 94 percent from 115,568 in the same month a year ago, Irvine-based RealtyTrac Inc. said Thursday.
“ . . . .
“The trend was particularly evident in Ohio, where 45 percent of all foreclosure filings during the month were notices of bank repossessions. The repossessions represented 46 percent of all filings in Missouri and 37 percent in Michigan.
“Economic woes and job losses have exacerbated the housing slump in the Midwest.”
Read on for additional grim statistics regarding Bush’s war time economy, based on military expenditures for which we don’t collect revenues and consumer purchases for which the purchasers don’t earn enough to pay.
Good morning, Mike & maryvb,
It's getting on for the end of the afternoon here and I just opened the WaPo webpage to see this news.
My guess is that the cause of death was pure unadulterated nastiness, exacerbated by hypocrisy.
They'd better start clearing out a lot of rooms in Hell for the likes of this man.
===============
Former Rep. Henry Hyde Dies at 83
The Associated Press
Thursday, November 29, 2007; 9:51 AM
WASHINGTON -- Former Rep. Henry Hyde, the Illinois Republican who steered the impeachment proceedings against President Clinton and championed government restrictions on the funding of abortions, has died. He was 83.
The death of the Illinois Republican was announced on Capitol Hill by the office of House Minority Leader John Boehner.
There was no immediate word on the cause of his death.
[...]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...
Vindication for Monica, who has said this all along.
================
Bush's Next Preemptive Strike
By Harold Meyerson
Thursday, November 29, 2007; A25
George W. Bush is focusing now on his legacy. Duck. Run. Hide.
Some of his legacy-building, I'll allow, is commendable, if overdue -- most particularly, his efforts to resurrect the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, which he ignored for seven long years. But the linchpin of Bush's legacy, it appears, is to make his Iraq policy a permanent fixture of American statecraft.
On Monday, Bush and Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki signed a declaration pledging that their governments would put in place a long-term political and security pact sometime next year. "The shape and size of any long-term, or longer than 2008, U.S. presence in Iraq will be a key matter for negotiation between the two parties, Iraq and the United States," Lt. Gen. Douglas Lute, the White House official in charge of Iraq war matters, said at the briefing unveiling the agreement.
What Bush will almost surely be pushing for is permanent U.S. bases in Iraq, enshrined in a pact he can sign a few months before he leaves office. And here, as they used to say, is the beauty part: As far as Bush is concerned, he doesn't have to seek congressional ratification for such an enduring commitment of American force, treasure and lives.
[...]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...
7.
In all due respects to you, that IMO was not called for. I don't care who the man or woman is -- I don't have the right to damn someone to Hell.
HAVE THEY NO SHAME?
http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/linkframe.php?linkid=46518
Every Saturday, the president of the United States gives a radio address to the nation. It is followed by the Democratic response, usually given by a senator or representative. This past Saturday the Democrats chose retired Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez to give their response, the same general accused in at least three lawsuits in the U.S. and Europe of authorizing torture and cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment of prisoners in Iraq. This, combined with the Democrats’ endorsement of Attorney General Michael Mukasey despite his unwillingness to label waterboarding as torture, indicates that the Democrats are increasingly aligned with President Bush’s torture policies.
This is not about politics. This is about the moral compass of the nation. The Democrats may be celebrating a retired general who has turned on his commander in chief. But the public should take pause.
The Democrats had a chance to draw a line in the sand, to absolutely require Mukasey to denounce waterboarding before his elevation to attorney general. Now they have chosen as their spokesman a discredited general, linked to the most egregious abuses in Iraq. The Bush administration passed Sanchez over for a promotion, worried about reliving the Abu Ghraib scandal during the 2006 election year. Now it’s the Democrats who have resuscitated him. Have they no shame?
* rdorgan
Thu, 11/29/07
9:47 am
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Err, ahh...........um are you arguing with yourself? This clock is weird too..............
3.
Michael Ellis
Thu, 11/29/07
9:21 am
I for one applaud Ron Paul for his foreign policy views and for having the guts to stand up to the power machines ...........his domestic ones however are almost as scary as the other candidates...
---------
First, there is NO disconnection, NO dis-joint between "foreign policy views" and "domestic ones" FOR THOSE!!! who applies PRINCIPLES ("ideology"..., lol) to both set views. The one IS EXTENSION of another.
However such a disconnection DOES EXIST for those only WHO DO NOT have PRINCIPLES at the core of their basic philosophy and those are, as one may guess...lol, all of the rest candidates in both Parties (except, maybe, Kucinich and Gravel).
It is, imo, still scary for you Mike because, I guess, in your views Government is a People's "helper" (maybe it really was to some extents, long, long ago, say around 1930's depression years. At the same time just recall WHO brought those depression years into the life of Americans? - Again the Government!).
Today Government become exclusively TOOL of Corporations' (NOT People's!) Power. That's why getting rid of Government means...bringing power to People (see Ron Paul's mantra)..., and wise versa, taking power to People means...taking it away from Government (see Howard Dean's mantra).
There is only two forms of power we know today: Corporate Government or People.
The problem we, "The People" face, the only one: we don't know yet how to replace former with the latter, have no experience in self-governance and afraid not been able to handle it.
It'll come....., anyway, there is no other choice.
Some of his legacy-building, I'll allow, is commendable, if overdue -- most particularly, his efforts to resurrect the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, which he ignored for seven long years.
A botched photo-op should hardly be called effort.
They'd better start clearing out a lot of rooms in Hell for the likes of this man.
Whever people who are too rotten for hell are sent is where he should go.
15.
Mike -
Judy's 8 was 7 (before the blog clock bonged again). So my post was directed at her comment.
former
Thu, 11/29/07
10:07 am
___________________________________________________________________________
you arent suggesting......................
I guess, in your views Government is a People's "helper"
Certainly not in the hands of Republicans.
18.
Michael Ellis
Thu, 11/29/07
10:25 am
_______________________
you arent suggesting...
-----------
...lol, not Mike, that case, as you may remember INCLUDED Government VERY, VERY MUCH!
I'm talking when THERE IS NO ONE...., only we, "The People"!
18.
Sitka
Thu, 11/29/07
10:18 am
Reply to this
I guess, in your views Government is a People's "helper"
Certainly not in the hands of Republicans.
------------
Then, my guess, you assume, expect, hope, await..., etc. it would be better in the hands of Democrats?!
..., lol, but it WAS ALREADY in those very hands MANY, MANY times...FOR WHAT?....To end up with...what we have today!
former
Thu, 11/29/07
10:33 am
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Just kidding....I kinda like that trumpet tune though..........
21.
Michael Ellis
Thu, 11/29/07
10:37 am
------
I've understood.
Editor from a newspaper in North Carolina (ie. Salisbury Post) sets the record straight:
http://www.salisburypost.com/opinion/342718140979610.php
Thu, Nov 29, 2007
|Letter: Obama unpatriotic?
I received an e-mail today that disturbed me. The purpose of it was to make a political statement, as it was a picture of Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and two others standing on a raised platform with our country's flag behind it. Every one of them had placed their hand over their heart while the national anthem was played, except Obama. His hands were clasped in front of him.
The accompanying commentary asked the same question that I'm about to ask. How can we accept a man that refuses to show respect for our flag as a presidential candidate?
— Sandy Smith
Salisbury
Editor's note: This is Obama's response to accusations that the photo (and a related video) suggest a lack of patriorism on his part: "This is the classic dirty trick of the campaign ... This is just so irritating. This was not the Pledge of Allegiance. This woman was singing the 'Star Spangled Banner.' Now, I was taught by my grandfather that you put your hand over your heart during the Pledge of Allegiance. The 'Star Spangled Banner,' you sing. So that's what I did. These aren't the only e-mails that are going out. You've got e-mails saying that I'm a Muslim plant that's trying to take over America and this and that and the other. If you get this e-mail from someone you know, set the record straight. You don't have to curse them out, just tell them that they are misinformed."
iT'S 11:01 AM
I was taught early and often not to speak ill of the dead. So I won't--about hypocritical Henry Hyde. May he rest in peace.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/
___________________________________________________________________________
Notice the Guy Fawks mask in the background as well..........hmm
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/
___________________________________________________________________________
Notice the Guy Fawks mask in the background as well..........hmm
1.
Fox -
Not so fast.
Next (last) quarter of this year is expected to only be 1.5 growth rate. Not so impressive:
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/071129/jobless_claims.html
AP
Jobless Claims Jump Sharply
Thursday November 29, 8:48 am ET
Number of People Seeking Unemployment Benefits Rises Sharply
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The number of new people signing up for jobless benefits last week jumped sharply, suggesting that the labor market is softening as national economic activity slows.The Labor Department reported Thursday that new applications filed for unemployment insurance rose by a seasonally adjusted 23,000 to 352,000. It was the highest level since Feb. 10.
The report surprised economists. They were forecasting claims to hold steady around 330,000.
The economy, which grew at a brisk 4.9 percent pace in the summer, is expected to slow to a pace of just 1.5 percent or less in the current October-to-December period as housing and credit troubles take their toll on consumers and businesses alike.
On thread topic, I'm no Ron Paul fan but this blog is full of facile judgements about people based upon how they look. It is demeaning and full of stereotypes. This is just a sample below:
there were 4 or 5 "crazy old men"(you know the type, those guys who seem to have lost the acquaintance of not only a comb, but clearly a chunk of their sanity), quite a few young guys with that ill-dressed, brush-cut look that screams former Bush supporter, and a smattering of NASCAR types ranging from just out of high school to one foot in the grave. Suffice it to say Murph and I were clearly the only guys with fashion sense in the whole room, despite the 25% or so attendees under 25.
What were others saying about Dean supporters four years ago. This is just pure bigotry. I am surprised that DFA posted something that is so full of it.
Then, my guess, you assume, expect, hope, await..., etc. it would be better in the hands of Democrats?!
That depends on the Democrats. Good ones are in short supply in DC these days, but that doesn't mean I'm going to start supporting Republicans.
May Henry Hyde become compost quickly (very rancid--cremation would be better)).
Glad he's finally dead (fucking intentionally evil misogynists tend to live what seems like forever).
Best news I've heard all week, Judy!
Good riddance.
I was taught early and often not to speak ill of the dead.
It must depend on how long they've been dead. Otherwise, you couldn't speak truthfully about some.
8.
My guess is that the cause of death was pure unadulterated nastiness, exacerbated by hypocrisy.
They'd better start clearing out a lot of rooms in Hell for the likes of this man.
Well said, Judy.
The guy was a a dirty rotten sexist pig hell bent on destroying Democrats anywhere for any reason.. Wherever he goes from here, hell or otherwise, I care not as long as he is GONE from this earth.
Just read Bush's recent interview with Gibson (transcript here: http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3891196).
Among usual crap, I've found these President's words:
".....my rhetoric, by the way, is aimed to the Iranian people, which is, and I'll be glad to repeat it here, which is that you've had a grand history, and a great tradition. Our beef is not with the Iranian people, it is with the government that is, you know, has hidden programs from international inspectors, has made very bellicose statements about how they intend to conduct foreign policy, that is promoting terror through organizations like Hezbollah, that is disrupting young democracies like Iraq and Lebanon, and therefore as a result of the actions of your government, you're becoming isolated, and you can do better.
"
It looks like our lovely President has been VERY COMPETENT..., at least to the extents to be able to realize that Iranian Government and Iranian People MAY HAPPEN...lol, NOT TO BE THE ONE and THE SAME entities!
But that’s of course relates only to Iranian People....
As for the American People that idea in the eyes of their “decider” apparently DOES NOT work. Nobody knows why, but only American People ARE the Government....lol.
Curious for how long Americans will NOT be able to notice that they been held by their respective Governments and leaders as idiots!
Replace the word Australian with American, I could be echoing the words of Aussie's Anne, after next year's U.S. prez election:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7109692.stm
Last Updated: Saturday, 24 November 2007, 13:13
PM Howard concedes Australia poll
Australian Prime Minister John Howard has admitted defeat in the country's general election, and looks set to lose his parliamentary seat.
...
Mr Howard had found himself on the wrong side of public opinion on the Kyoto protocol and the war in Iraq, our correspondent said. Many people also seemed to be simply tired of Mr Howard after 11 years of his rule.
...
After too many years I can finally hold my head up and be proud to call myself Australian again 
Anne, Brisbane
...
31.
I rather liked the graphic scenario painted by Michael who was rightfully releasing some pent up disgust. I share his disgust.
I was able to picture this measly little group, who they might look like and who would be supporting a candidate hell bent on destroying the social structure of this country and what it is about.
32.
Sitka
Thu, 11/29/07
11:08 am
Reply to this
Then, my guess, you assume, expect, hope, await..., etc. it would be better in the hands of Democrats?!
That depends on the Democrats. Good ones are in short supply in DC these days, but that doesn't mean I'm going to start supporting Republicans.
---------
Yep...., there is always hope for a
- "good" tribal chief,
- "good" king/queen,
- "good" czar,
- "good" President,
- "good" General Secretary,
- "good" Government.
....
Is there end here?
Had to run some errands before the stores closed here, only to return to see that I have spazzed rd* out.
Sheesh, rd* chill ... you manifest some priggish traits, IMO ... and are definitely attributing powers to me that I do not have.
I will damn whomever I wish to Hell. That certainly doesn't mean that they'll go there.
But the odds on Hyde's going there are pretty damn good, totally apart from anything that I might say or do. If there is a Hell, that is.
Unless we take on entrenched interests in DC, we will not see a progressive agenda that includes universal health care, removes troops from the disaster in Iraq and transforms our energy/transportation systems to reverse global warming. It just won't happen. Edwards is speaking out directly on this need to stop the corrupt system in Washington that is supported by corporate Republicans and Democrats alike. Please watch this and understand:
31.
Indy Steve
Thu, 11/29/07
11:02 am
You are so right - when I was a young, thin chick I took looks for granted. Now that I'm old I see how much our looks affect how our way is made in life. There's a Code Pink lady here in town who is a big Kuchinich fan -- she says the whole reason he hasn't caught on is b/c of his looks.
Joan* In*Florida
Thu, 11/29/07
11:33 am
Really? I try not to judge people by their appearances or a negative association with a group. That is prejudice. And this piece is full of it. It is not acceptable, IMO, even when it's applied to a candidate's supporters who I don't support. They are people, just like you and me. And dismissing them as "fringe" is disgusting.
Before 9/11 -- when he was supposedly studying up on terrorism -- Rudy was really breaking up his (2nd) marriage via an affair with Judith Nathan (and hiding the charges in obscure agencies)
After 9/11 -- when he was supposedly stiff-arming state sponsors of terrorism -- Giuliani was really doing business (big money) with the oil Sheikh who protected and facilitated the 9/11 terrorists
With the money and contacts and prestige from that and other business, Giuliani runs a presidential campaign claiming he is a big-time pro on fightin' terrorism -- better than everyone else, particularly the Democrats
One has a hard time imagining Giuliani squirming out of sex and money and business ties to terrorism all at the same time, although I am sure he will try his darnedest.
Nonetheless, if you cup your hand behind your ear and turn towards Iowa, you can hear a faint, but distinct sound over the horizon: the flutter of Giuliani staffers mailing off their resumes to the Huckabee campaign.
Story with links to Village Voice, etc.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-feldman/giuliani-did-business-wit_b_74598.html
Annilow
Thu, 11/29/07
11:45 am
So true...some of the best people I know are "fringe" types. They are committed, principled people who are standing up for what they believe.
I happen to think DK is a much better Congressperson (how about Senator?) than he would be as President, but it has nothing to do with his looks.
17. Well, see, I would argue that corporations have become the tools of the power hungry.
On the other hand, the spouse says I'm sick.
http://www.infomaticsonline.co.uk/vnunet/news/2204527/al-gore-web-site-hacked
Spammers hack Al Gore's climate siteAttack shows interesting Google hacking technique
Iain Thomson, vnunet.com 28 Nov 2007Al Gore's Climate Crisis website has been hacked by spammers using an interesting technique to affect Google's rankings.
Hackers inserted links into the source code of the web pages of Gore's site.
These links were not visible to regular users as they were buried in the source code, but they were picked up by search engine software to affect the position of another site altogether.
"The fact that Al Gore's site got hacked or compromised, while definitely of significance, uncovers a much bigger technique now being used by spammers," said Vikram Thakur, of Symantec's security response team.
"The hackers were able to get to the top of the search results by creating links such as these. No one visiting the hacked site would have noticed or been affected by any malicious program. Not yet anyway."
Using this technique, and by posting comments on forums using an automatic generator, the team was able to move its bogus pharmaceuticals site up near the top of the search engine rankings.
Thakur fears that a vulnerability in WordPress web publishing software has left many bloggers open to attack by the same method.
"We have seen the spammers go from comment spamming to hacking WordPress, to injecting links, to getting top listing on the search engine results, to marketing pharmaceutical sites through a large network of interwoven links," he said.
...
47.
Monica Smith
Thu, 11/29/07
12:02 pm
....
On the other hand, the spouse says I'm sick.
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We all getting sick here...., but..."cure is on the way"..., lol.
Indy, it's not bigotry. It's an example of superficial judgment reinforcing prejudice. People make judgments about other people on the basis of how they "look." Somehow it hasn't sunk in that appearances are deceiving.
I expect that, in the long run, prejudice that inhibits behavior (prompts caution and circumspection) is probably more beneficial than not (from an evolutionary perspective). Which is why it persists.
Edwards is speaking out directly on this need to stop the corrupt system in Washington that is supported by corporate Republicans and Democrats alike.
According to his record in Washington, he's one of them.
- 1998-2002 Edwards supported the interests of the Center for Security Policy 50 percent
- 1999-2000 Edwards supported the interests of the CATO Institute--Center for Trade Policy Studies 40 percent
- 2000 Edwards supported the interests of the Family Research Council 50 percent
- 2001-2002 Edwards supported the interests of the American Land Rights Association 20 percent
- 2001-2002 Edwards supported the interests of the CATO Institute--Center for Trade Policy Studies 17 percent
- 2002 Edwards supported the interests of the Eagle Forum 33 percent
- 2002 Edwards supported the interests of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce 55 percent
- 2002 Edwards supported the interests of the American Coalition for Ethanol 100 percent
http://votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=2
Monica Smith
Thu, 11/29/07
12:13 pm
A distinction without a difference. Bigot = superficial judgment reinforcing prejudice. Call it what it is,
A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own.
Monica. I see your evolutionary point but I don't agree with an evolutionary view that bigotry and prejudice is helpful to our survival as individuals or as a society.
My point about bigotry in this blog piece is that you could substitute Dean for Ron Paul back in the early days of 03. That is exactly what was said of Dean "fringe" supporters.
Read the piece again with this in mind. It wasn't acceptable then to us and it's not acceptable now. DFA just seems to posting crapola these days. Do they even read this and discuss it BEFORE promoting it. It does represent DFA after all and should be discussed.
On evolution, since Monica brought it up. If we posit that everything in society that exists MUST be a result of some evolutionary (survival) need, isn't that a tautology?
That is, it exists therefore it must be essential to our survival. That could justify a lot of evil and prejudice, sexism and so on.
It is always dangerous to take a principle that is meant for natural systems and apply them to social systems. Just food for thought.
44. The reason Kucinich hasn't "caught on" is because he has no organizational ability, he's good at opposition, but not at creation, and he's incapable of capitalizing on his experiences.
Example: He's been married three times and still treats his wife as an object.
Example: He's a vegan and equates that with "animal rights." If the rest of organic or inorganic existance has "rights" why limit the concept to "animals?" Why not just go with don't kill what you don't need to survive?
Kucinich is another "my way, or the highway" person.
Sitka wrote: According to his record in Washington, he's one of them
If you listened to the Youtube video of Edwards (did you?) you would hear him admit as much. He is quite honest about going along some of the time.
That does not negate what he is saying and doing now however. People become aware of their actions, their prejudices and hopefully correct them.
Watch it again and see him talk about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mco42ueX6fw
By The Associated Press
Wed Nov 28, 11:53 PM ET
Some quotes from Wednesday night's Republican debate:
JOHN McCAIN
"We never lost a battle in Vietnam. It was American public opinion that forced us to lose that conflict. I think it's important for all Americans to understand the fundamental difference. After we left Vietnam, they didn't want to follow us home.
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LBJ said the South Vietnamese guerrillas would fight us on the beaches of Waikiki if we didn't fight them there. According to the US government, they would have followed us home. Thats why I can't believe today's politicians when they suggest the same thing.....highly unlikely since they tend to speak out of both sides of their mouth.
And, of course, NOT FIXING THE BLOG CLOCK demonstrates some questionable tech competence skills of DFA.
Indy, evolution is not relevant on an individual or group basis. What I meant was that being cautious, instead of gregarious (as infants are), probably promotes survival to a reproductive age. Cautious people are more likely to survive long enough to reproduce their genes than reckless ones. There's a bias towards cautious sociability in the human species.
Consider how herd species are maintained. The group or herd doesn't penalize individuals who wander away from the flock. Rather, such individuals get picked off by the wolves or lions. So, genetic variation is reduced.
There is only one species of homo sapiens. The question we might ask is whether similar species died out because they weren't socially supportive of each other or were exterminated by homo sapiens because they weren't sufficiently subservient.
54. Actually, Indy, I would argue that many species contain the seeds of their own destruction. It's not unusual for a species to exhaust the resources of a particular location. Those that have the capacity to move on survive better than those that are stuck--i.e. what we call plants. On the other hand, most plant species have a strategy which permits for generational survival while the individual dies. Indeed, in some plants, the parent has to die before the off-spring are released to move off and survive elsewhere. Have you ever noticed that when you did up dandelions before their go to seed and don't destroy them, the flowers will turn to puff balls in the bin and the wind will carry the seed away?
Monica Smith
Thu, 11/29/07
12:36 pm
Very interesting discussion (to me anyway!). And I understand what you are saying: that sticking with people who look and act like you has survival value in that individuals need groups (society) to survive and pass on genes. So far, so good.
However, prejudice is a learned trait (not genetic). So how could it be passed on through genetic mutation (unless you are saying there is a gene related to prejudice that gets replicated). If it is learned, then we are in the realm of social evolution (tread lightly).
A social system which survives because of prejudice then becomes self-reinforcing and a tautology. It has survived therefore it must be essential to survival. It is essential to survival therefore it leads to survival of that society. How do you ever overcome prejudice? Or eliminate slavery? Or sexism and racism?
OK, I have not vetted this to see if it's true or not but, if it's not, presumably, we'll know soon enough.
Here's another issue that separates Chris Dodd from the rest of the Democratic field.
Bankruptcy reform.
John Edwards never met a bankruptcy "reform" bill he didn't like while he was in the Senate.
Joe Biden was a key supporter of the horrible bankruptcy "reform" bills in 2000, 2001, and 2005.
And Hillary Clinton supported the 2001 version of the so-called "reform" bill.
Indeed, Chris Dodd is the ONLY Presidential candidate in the Senate to repeatedly vote against bankruptcy legislation that failed to protect children and families.
And consistent with Senator Dodd's leadership throughout this race, he is introducing a bill to help American families feeling an economic squeeze that's costing them their homes and driving them towards bankruptcy.
Read Senator Dodd's fair and practical Bankruptcy Reform Plan and pass it along to your friends.
http://chrisdodd.com/issues/bankruptcy
To protect the middle class from laws written by special interests, for special interests ...
To make it easier for families in economic crisis to get back on their feet ...
To ensure that people are not punished for suffering medical catastrophes ...
Not only does Dodd have a plan to make bankruptcy law work for Americans, he's not going to wait until January of 2009 to act on it.
We're relying on you to pass along the news to your family and friends.
http://chrisdodd.com/issues/bankruptcy
Voting records ... matter.
Leadership ... matters.
Results ... matter.
With your help, we're gonna get this done.
Tim Tagaris
Chris Dodd for President
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...
Army Captains Critique Iraq War
by John McChesney
Morning Edition, November 28, 2007
A dozen former U.S. Army captains wrote a column for The Washington Post last month entitled "The Real Iraq We Knew" in which they set out to describe the war they had experienced, instead of the one generals and politicians had described.
The officers' words have stirred controversy, with some critics calling them traitors. But that hasn't stopped them from speaking out.
--------
I still remember Senator Kerry making the comment during the height of our last foreign policy disaster about a woman shouting to a group of Vietnam Veterans Against the War - You need to support da troops - to which their reply was - Lady, we are da troops.
Thu, 11/29/07
11:22 am
Reply to this
8.
My guess is that the cause of death was pure unadulterated nastiness, exacerbated by hypocrisy.
They'd better start clearing out a lot of rooms in Hell for the likes of this man.
Well said, Judy.
The guy was a a dirty rotten sexist pig hell bent on destroying Democrats anywhere for any reason.. Wherever he goes from here, hell or otherwise, I care not as long as he is GONE from this earth.
Hey, Joan and Judy. You stole my obituary comments.
I only hope that Hyde's legacy will be that his district turns blue in the near future.
Monica Smith
Thu, 11/29/07
12:43 pm
Usually, I just mow them over and then they go to seed immediately! LOL.
Then I'm left with even more next year. Back to evolution!
If you listened to the Youtube video of Edwards (did you?) you would hear him admit as much.
Being a corporatist didn't work, so now he's a populistt. What's he's got to lose?
That does not negate what he is saying and doing now however.
Yes it does. How can anyone trust that Edwards won't switch back if given the nomination?
Kerry was a populist until he secured the nomination, after which he immediately attended a $25K/plate DLC fundraiser where he reassured them he wasn't really one. He later carried it to the logical conclusion by chooosing Edwards for VP.
Listen to the rhetoric. Believe the record.
Your objections to Kucinich seem contrived.
All of the candidates have challenges to live up to their rhetoric, Sitka. And all have made mistakes in their past which you delight in showing.
As far as trust, I have more trust in someone who recognizes mistakes, admits them and corrects them. Time will tell if Edwards will follow through. With someone like Elizabeth and his daughter I have no doubt he will be called to task if he doesn't!!!
He has taken strong, specific stands and we shall hold him to it.
I have to admit that I am particularly sensitive about this housing crisis. That's because at a time when the default rate by home-owners was less than one percent (much less than any commercial or business category) back in the eighties, I was fighting with financial institutions that refused to make loans to people wanting to buy homes in the inner city, even as they were keen to lend money to real estate speculators in the suburbs. Then, in the nineties, economists decided that homeowners had too much equity tied up in their homes and they removed the capital gains tax with the specific intent to promote the sale of older homes and churn the real estate market and "liberate" that accumulated value for financial speculation.
I argued at the time that it was a dishonest strategy. (I don't know exactly what effect it had, but I suspect that the tax on income derived from the fees and refinancing and higher mortgages more than made up for what was lost by removing the capital gains tax). If you all will remember, I said, over and over that the ownership society is not a ship that will take you anywhere you want to go.
By the way, when I say "fought" I mean that I filed one of the first objections to a bank branch under the Community Re-investment Act and I had people from Atlanta come down to Florida to hold a hearing and some of the people who had agreed to testify about how they'd been denied loans were bought off with promises of support in the next municipal election. My only consolation was that the branch never did well and was a derelict structure after a few years and the savings and loan scandal was stopped in our community before it went as far as it did in Texas.
Sitka
Thu, 11/29/07
12:45 pm
Kucinich was anti-choice, then changed his position when he sought the nomination.
52.
Indy Steve
Thu, 11/29/07
12:11 pm
Indeed.
There was concern when DFA HQ opened up their Presidential Pulse Poll to all the campaigns and non DFA members. Several other organizations did polls too but they didn't turn their's into a free for all. Personally, I think doing that was a huge mistake but I tried to make the best of it. All we at the bfa and DFA HQ really got out of it were more trolls and a bunch of polititcal operatives from the different camps that don't do the great work. Though doing so, did make their numbers look good on paper.
http://www.blogforamerica.com/view/23085...
53.
Somehow it hasn't sunk in that appearances are deceiving.
Appearances can be deceiving, but certainly not always nor perhaps even most of the time. I think it is dependent on whether the appearance is actually meant to be deceiving.
It is realistic for me to be able to look at a person and attempt to determine if he/she represents someone I want to know better, get away from quickly, or simply choose to withhold my judgment on for the moment until there is more information to judge upon, like what he/she says or does.
I doubt there are many documentaries in print that do not attempt to physically describe characters in an attempt to make them more "visible" to the reader. In addition, I would never class the writer as a "bigot" because his/her characters' descriptions were unattractive.
60. Prejudice is learned. It serves to counteract the gregarious gene and keeps off-spring close by to provide compensation for the effort that went into rearing them. Parents, especially males, prefer to get something for their labor. LOL
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/112907...
Here's truthout on the Son of Patriot Act
The Violent Radicalization Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007
By Matt Renner
t r u t h o u t | Report
Thursday 29 November 2007
snip to
The bill specifically identifies the Internet as a tool of radicalization. "The Internet has aided in facilitating violent radicalization, ideologically based violence, and the homegrown terrorism process in the United States by providing access to broad and constant streams of terrorist-related propaganda to United States citizens."
In a press release, Caroline Fredrickson, director of the Washington American Civil Liberties Union legislative office, took issue with this characterization. "If Congress finds the Internet is dangerous, then the ACLU will have to worry about censorship and limitations on First Amendment activities. Why go down that road?" Fredrickson asked in a press release.
The ALCU has "serious concerns" about the bill. Fredrickson said, "Law enforcement should focus on action, not thought. We need to worry about the people who are committing crimes rather than those who harbor beliefs that the government may consider to be extreme."
snip to
Congressman and presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) was one of three Democrats who voted against the bill, but he has given no public explanation for his opposition and his office did not respond to a call for comment as of this writing.
Neither the Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D-California) nor Congressman John Conyers (D-Michigan), the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, voted on the bill.
The bill has been referred to the Senate Homeland Security Committee, chaired by Sen. Joseph Lieberman (I-Connecticut). With overwhelming support from the House, it is likely to pass quickly through the Senate.
CALL YOUR SENATORS NOW - NO ON SENATE BILL 1959 - WE WANT OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES BACK
All of the candidates have challenges to live up to their rhetoric, Sitka. And all have made mistakes in their past which you delight in showing.
Some mistakes matter more more than others. And sometimes aren't "mistakes" at all, but rather crassly caluculated political decisions. And when the political winds change, calling them mistakes gives those who want to believe the rationale they need to ignore the record.
As far as trust, I have more trust in someone who recognizes mistakes, admits them and corrects them.
I have more trust in those who were right when it mattered.
He has taken strong, specific stands and we shall hold him to it.
As you are holding him to his past strong and specific stands that were dead wrong?
Joan wrote: In addition, I would never class the writer as a "bigot" because his/her characters' descriptions were unattractive.
I did not call the writer a bigot. I said (meant to) the piece represented bigotry, and it shouldn't be picked by DFA to promote to the blog. Many Dean supporters were dismissed because of their looks. But, of course, it was a misguided attempt to demean the candidate as well.
If you judge people on that basis, you will miss meeting a lot of great people. Book. Cover, and all that.
IF someone ACTS threatening, that goes beyond appearance.
We are all prejudiced in some way. The trick is to strive to recognize when and try to be open.
70.
I only hope that Hyde's legacy will be that his district turns blue in the near future.
We can only hope Donna! I don't think the area was all that red in 2004. Bush got 53% of the vote which is not a landslide.
Monica Smith
Thu, 11/29/07
1:06 pm
Always interesting to discuss with you. You take ideas off in unexpected directions, like a good philosopher!
Maybe the housing crisis is an evolutionary signal that people have been taking on too much debt and need "correction". Anyway, gotta go.
Tim French: http://www.dfalink.com/profile.php?id=26...
Mr. French of Dinnellon, Flordia is a DFA-Link member of Democracy for Florida and Florida. Joined the DFA-Link on 10/28/07.
Mr. French sure is an interesting person. Why on God's green earth is he posting at the bfa. He certainly had a lot to say about us, Naomi Klein and liberal members of the Jewish faith.
1.
Tim French
Wed, 11/28/07
8:21 pm
Take a look, leave a comment and please recommend the post. http://www.blogforamerica.com/view/23117...
72.
We are all prejudiced in some way. The trick is to strive to recognize when and try to be open.
Steve,
I don't consider myself prejudiced as to race, ethnic background or sex. I DO find myself these days jumping to attention as soon as I know someone is a Republicans -- though there too I have many close Rep friends -- so I don't know as that is prejudice or not.
In general, perhaps many women instinctively react more defensively than men do and the only means to do that is to judge by looks alone until they know more.
64. I don't understand what you mean by "contrived." My assessment of Kucinich is based on personal observation, the operation of his campaign in New Hampshire, and his policy pronouncements. I have a lot of regard for some of his most ardent supporters without whose effort his campaign would be nothing.
I have talked to him in person. He said he understood my concerns. I have seen no evidence that understanding has influenced his policy pronouncements. At no time has he said that ALL American forces should be withdrawn from Iraq anytime soon.
Dodd has said that. Neither Clinton nor Edwards have been willing to go that far. Obama keeps re-iterating that he didn't think we should go there in the first place. Then he talks about the threat posed by Iran. Richardson mentioned a problem in Turkey once and hasn't brought it up since. It's my sense that Turkey wants to get rid of the U.S. nuclear missiles (still haven't found out when they got back in there) and Iraq was supposed to be a replacement site.
You all do remember that the proximate cause of the Cuban Missile Crisis was the placement of U.S. missiles in Turkey. Right? Or did you miss the release of that information in about the year 2000 when JFK's papers were opened in the Kennedy Library and it was revealed that the removal of the missiles from Turkey was a secred addendum to the agreement between Kennedy and Krushchev? In other words, the Cuban Missile Crisis was caused by the U.S. Air Force failing to follow presidential directives.
There's a whole crowd of people who are absolutely convinced that American superiority is purchased by the threat and the willingness to use nuclear weapons.
'PEACE IS OUR PROFESSION' and our symbol is the mushroom cloud.
Joan* In*Florida
Thu, 11/29/07
1:23 pm
Interesting point about women and men. I can see that. More vulnerable -- and in a sexist society, need to act more quickly based on limited info.
But I stand behind that in a racist, sexist society we have all internalized societal prejudices in ways we may not even be aware of. So when someone says they are NOT prejudiced, I tend to think they are just not aware of it.
As for Republicans, that is a hard one. I, too, have a knee-jerk thought reaction. Gotta work on that one since half my family and in-laws are those! LOL.
Henry Hyde – lost his way....
He was a basketball star in college. He was in the Navy and saw action in the Phillipines. An Irish/Catholic – he was a Democrat until 1952.
Hyde and Tom Lantos (D-CA), authored America's worldwide response to the HIV/AIDS crisis in 2003 and landmark foreign assistance legislation creating the Millennium Challenge Corporation.
Henry Hyde was the original sponsor of the Brady Bill requiring background checks for gun buyers, Hyde broke with his party in 1994 when he supported a ban on the sale of semi-automatic firearms.
He was an original sponsor of family leave legislation, Hyde said the law promoted "capitalism with a human face.
Henry Hyde was in disagreement with his party on the Iraq War.
"Lashing our interests to the indiscriminate promotion of democracy is a tempting but unwarranted strategy, more a leap of faith than a sober calculation. There are other negative consequences as well. A broad and energetic promotion of democracy in other countries that will not enjoy our long-term and guiding presence may equate not to peace and stability but to revolution."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hyde
They say....'once' you step over to the other side - you understand everything and that all wrong doings here are no more than ...'accidentally breaking your Mother's lamp' as a child. May he rest in peace.
Susan,
Wow. what a diatribe Mr. French wrote. I will only post the last part here with a question:
French wrote: The United States of America and it's rock-ribbed conservatives will continue to protect you and all of us so we may continue to have this civil discourse. Gob Bless America!
IndySteve: Who's Gob?!
Just a drive by folks to share this video.
I thank goodness most of the world is smarter than Americans and they can differentiate between Americans and America's Government-especially current.
in this video...Pakistan......As the gentleman said,
"No Pakistani wants to save Osama. Osama is part of American policy". [ba da BOOM]
http://current.com/items/76353802_our_cl...
For Phil -
Here's a golden opportunity ( no pun intended ) for Phil to defend Iowa's corn farmers against a neighboring state's wheat farmers :
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/29/opinion/29collins.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
WINNING HEARTS AND MINDS
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/11/29/iraqi-lawmakers-walk-out-_n_74615.html
Dozens of Iraqi lawmakers walked out of parliament Wednesday to protest what they view as overly aggressive and humiliating treatment by U.S. soldiers as representatives enter Baghdad's heavily fortified Green Zone, where the legislature is located.
"I and many of my colleagues who live outside the Green Zone face a lot of problems," said Feryad Rawandozi, a high-ranking official with the Kurdish parliamentary bloc. U.S. soldiers "are very arrogant and impolite when they talk to us, especially with those who don't speak English."
78.
Annilow
Thu, 11/29/07
1:09 pm
----------
Here we are!
"Free" country afraid of the Internet!
Goverment knows where the danger is coming from..., from truth.
I think that's the more steely-eyed expression Phil referred to the other day.87.
Henry Hyde led the way to impeaching Clinton for no reason
Henry Hyde led the way to cut off all federal funds for abortions
Henry Hyde was among 12 former directors and officers of the Clyde Federal Savings and Loan who were sued for gross negligence by federal regulators after the 1990 failure of the North Riverside, Ill.-based institution. That failure cost taxpayers an estimated $68 million.
Henry Hyde was found to have an affair with a married woman but brushed it off an a "youthful indiscretion" despite the fact that he was 40 years old at the time.
Henry Hyde strongly opposed a constitutional amendment imposing term limits on members of Congress despite his own party support of it.
92.
The strong look of a president this country needs to lead it out of a looming catastrophy -- Chris Dodd
Ah Salone ! (I traveled through Brookfield and Croo Bay, both neighborhoods of the capital Freetown, during my stay this past month in Sierra Leone)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/07/africa_sierra_leonean_family/html/1.stm
Abdul Karim Conteh is a footballer with Freetown team FC Kallon. His family includes, from left, daughter Zeinab, wife Adama, Pipiy aged two, and son, Abdul Raman.
Missing here, is eldest daughter Asanatu, who only gets home from school at 6pm.
The family lives in Brookfields, a prosperous area. Adama works as a nurse in the Kroo Bay slum.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/07/africa_sierra_leonean_family/html/10.stm
"They are trying very hard in school, and they are doing well," says Abdul Karim.
"We hope that our children become responsible and well-educated people."
Words and photos: Anna Kari. www.annakari.com
92. What we need to understand is that these people are convinced that how people act is entirely control by outside direction. Therefor, if people are to be controlled then the source of information or direction has to be controlled. Moreover, people have to be controlled because, if they're not, they will act like wild animals.
In their philosophy, the purpose of society is to control individual behavior and make people act human. Without social control people will revert to animalistic behavior. There doesn't seem to be any awarness that this model is constructed to satisfy their own prejudice in favor of exercising control.
If you assume that people are self-directed to be socially responsible people, then there's no justification for imposing constraints.
Now, in the coercive scenario, the internets are a source of information and represent a threat to good order whenever the information is not being controlled by those who are charged with maintaining order. Indeed, because of it's pervasiveness, the medium of electronic communication holds the key for ruling the world. If everyone gets the same message and the same orders, then there will be no disorder. Simple. See?
Some of this will be on C-span on Saturday. I don't recall the time that was listed on air and they don't show it on their website. I'll post it if I see the reference again.
The Democratic National Committee will hold its annual fall meeting in Vienna, Virginia from November 29, to December 1, 2007. On Friday, November 30, the Democratic presidential candidates, DNC Chairman Howard Dean, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Colorado Governor Bill Ritter will address members of the DNC.
More than 400 DNC members from around the country are expected to attend. This will be the last meeting of the full DNC membership before the Democratic Convention in Denver next August. Video of the candidates' remarks will be available on the DNC's web site, democrats.org, shortly following their appearance.
WHERE:
Sheraton Premiere at Tysons Corner
8661 Leesburg Pike, Vienna, Virginia 22182
Grand Ballroom -- General Sessions
WHEN:
DNC Meeting: November 29 to December 1, 2007
General Session 1: November 30, 2007 from 10:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m.
General Session 2: November 30, 2007 from 1:30 p.m. to 3:30 p.m
Woops - I just went into a back topic by mistake and found a note from Fred, that he'd mistaken me for someone else..
Sitka - what happened to Fred? anyway, my answer to him.
Hey Fred - I knew that. : ) I was just going to ask where you were? Hope you're feeling better. ..Maybe try what I do when certain people come in here 'intentionally' trying to get our goat. Sometimes I think of them as 17 year olds being given articles and paid by the Republicans to do just that... or VERY upset Republicans, because they're losing it all. They're just screaming all the way down the hole they dug. : )
Was also responsible to "welfare deform"--more specificially, deeming that parenting is no longer a "countable work activity."
Can you say federally subsidized misogyny & Jim Crow slavery redux in 1996?
"Lost his way," my ass.
Fuck that enabling shit.
I wish the misogynistic fuckwad had died in 1974--he ruined millions of lives throughout the decades w/his unrelenting intentionally misogynistic legislation.
http://www.ontheissues.org/IL/Henry_Hyde...
ZERO empathy from Moi.
I only hope that Hyde's final days were outrageously painful in nature (which still wouldn't even begin to compensate, vs. the damage he inflicted upon the lives of *millions* of women and their children).
2:55
Impossible to read a thread with the postings so damned messed up. Peeps, think we can go back to excerpting what were responding to rather than using the useless post #?
Fuckwad Hyde was also responsible for "fatherhood initiatives," "faith-based" monies being diverted from welfare "deform" block grant monies (shall poor women "pray," methinks?); and for placing time limits (lifetime, no less) on welfare eligibility (which is no longer an entitlement, BTW).
Fuck Hyde (and all others of his misogynistic & racist ilk)--someone pls. take a shit on his grave for me?
ZERO empathy for that flaming asshole...he lived decades longer than he should've.
Millions of women and their children for generations to come (planned/unwanted) suffered, due to his unrelenting and intentional misogyny.
Major OIl Pipeline Fire - Minnesota
I sure hope this was an accident....
NEW YORK (AP) - Oil prices rose Thursday, but retreated from earlier highs, after a pipeline that has the capacity to supply 17 percent of domestic crude imports appeared close to returning to service following an overnight fire. The fire late Wednesday along the Enbridge Energy Partners LP Lakehead pipeline in northern Minnesota, which carries crude oil from Saskatchewan to the Chicago area, killed two workers who were repairing it, authorities said. The pipeline, which actually consists of four separate conduits, was completely shut down for a while. ....two of the four lines, which can carry a total of 680,000 barrels of crude a day, were restarted Thursday morning, said Larry Springer, a spokesman for Houston-based Enbridge. A third line, designed to carry 700,000 barrels a day of heavy crude, "remains shut down but is expected to return to service later The fire-damaged line, which can carry 420,000 barrels of crude a day, could be repaired and returned to service within two or three days (todayhttp://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8T7FQ0O0&show_article=1And this one, too..
Nuclear Reactor Shut Down
NORTH PERRY, Ohio (AP) -- A water system problem caused an automatic shutdown of a nuclear power plant Wednesday, a spokeswoman for the plant said. The Perry Nuclear Power Plant, located alongside Lake Erie about 35 miles northeast of Cleveland, shut down about 7:30 a.m. when problems with the system that provides water to the reactor malfunctioned, said spokeswoman Jennifer Young7.4 Earthquake - I hope there's no tsunami - it's very close to Florida!
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither"
I cure hope Cali4nun's sure vote Cindy Sheehan IN!!!
hmmm, a freudian slip? cure not sure.....well, it sure would be a cure for what is ailing us!
ciao!
Reuters: Earthquake: Power out, roads cracked - no major damage so far.
It's a pretty good size, but it's deep and there is no tsunami threat. It's aways out to sea," Geophysicist Robert Cessaro at the Hawaii-based Pacific Tsunami Warning Center told Reuters.
Just in time for the holidays......Scrooge was a .......Republican.
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Videos of some of the 64 House Healthcare Heroes standing strong for a public health insurance option
Congressman Emanuel Cleaver
Congressman Lloyd Dogget
Congressman Keith Ellison
Congressman Bob Filner
Congressman Phil Hare
Congresswoman Lynn Woolsey
Congresswoman Maxine Waters
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