Independent thought is always first....................................

... oddly, all these things that you want us to fear, Illya couldn't happen without Congress, or even the votes of the States... that is IF Congress had the guts to uphold their obligations under the Constitution.

sheeeez, this constant selling of the Democratic party is sooooo strange. There should be no question there, but sadly THERE IS.

THAT IS NOT OUR FAULT!! The fact that there is those sentiments here, of all places, is why we need Howard back... instead of being muzzled in D.C.

Well, I was visiting the Dep of Ed site this morning and I'm not sure this institution deserves to be funded.  While I certainly agree that ignorance (which we all have at birth) needs to be removed and while I agree that it's a national matter, if only because we prize our ability to relocate from state to state at will, without a lot of rigamarole (like JudyforDean seems to be experiencing in Switzerland), public education has long been marred by a concentration on making "good citizens" out of the young, rather than making them competent adults whose talents are enhanced by the skills and information developed in the past.

Howard Dean is first--just in case you forgot. 

I'm glad Ron Paul is running on the Republican side. And that he is in their debates. But I'd never vote for him. Extreme Libertarianism is not progressive, IMO.

BTW, Dean is first and he'd be well-advised not to have the DNC sponsor the debate if it excludes candidates because of money.

from a previous thread

"Huckabee came across as a GOP Jimmy Carter (open, honet and saintly), and the evangelicals loved Jimmy until Reagan turned their heads four years later (how, I will never understand).

-- volney"

Under Carter's DOJ/IRS Bob Jones University had their tax exempt status taken away for racial discrimination against AAs, the SCOTUS upheld. The wingnuts went nuts then joined Satan and the Republican party.
Oddly, their god Bob Jones III struck the rules that discriminated to regain the tax exempt status. By then the lust for power and vengence on the Supreme Court kept the fundies in Hell's camp.


*** on the Gravel issue***
Howard should prohibit the other nominee candidates from this debate, or strip their delegetes. period.

Mike wrote "Well Tom, youve pissed off enough people here today.......we dont need to fuel the fire anymore..you are doing fine by yourself."

Is that how you view your role in the blog discussion? Making sure you don’t piss anyone off?

Monica wrote "Howard Dean is first--just in case you forgot."

Mike didn't forget.  He never subscribed to the axiom. 

Tom Bearse
Mon, 10/22/07
11:57 am

Hey. New thread. Clean blog. Don't pollute.

I did drive by a group of Ron Paul supporters with signs on the road the other day. And I honked for them. Not because I support Paul but because they were out there standing up for democracy.

Reminded of the old "we are Dean people" days standing by the road.

Indy wrote "Hey. New thread. Clean blog. Don't pollute."

What's this about?  I had a question in direct connection with a statement in a post.  Are you getting all 1984 on us?

I don't think anyone should give charity to anyone.  I think every person, by virtue of being born, is entitled to be sustained to be provided with the skills required to be contributing.  I don't think sustenance should be conditioned on subservience. 

To the claim that "there is no free lunch," I would respond that lunch is an entitlement--i.e. an obligation that society must satisfy.  For any human to starve is a blot on the species--a sign that humans are less "advanced" than the chipmunk or the ant. 

Seems MSNBC are moving their offices to NYC today. Maybe that's why Mr. Grouchy at the NJ switchboard is in such a foul mood.

You can call 212-664-4444 and ask to leave a message for Keith Olberman, as Indy suggested, to get Gravel invited to the debate.

The woman who answered the phone at the DNC HQ didn't think Howard would make a statement but she did say she'd let him know. He's in Oregon still - and she laughed that I even knew that :)

Gotta get some work done but I'll be here on and off.

Lovely day to all!

Tom,

It's not only been traditional here for the past four years to leave non-political and personal rude posts on the previous threads.

It's also common courtesy.

You too, Mike.

True moderation versus false centrism...an important difference.  Some in the think tank division of our party don't know the difference.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1586

From Dictionary.com:

Obtuse: not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.

Tom Bearse
Mon, 10/22/07
12:01 pm

Carryng over old posts with attacks from another thread....against blog rules. That's all.

Denise wrote "It's not only been traditional here for the past four years to leave non-political and personal rude posts on the previous threads."

I was not aware of this, but I subscribe to it whole-heartedly.

Bless you, Tom!

************
For anyone who is interested, I left some articles on the last thread.

Now off.

the Holy Trinity (Clinton, Bayh and Bauer) ? --

-- if so, they sound like they've been annoited:

http://www.southbendtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071022/News01/710220322

Bauer: Endorsing Clinton could make it possible.

MIKE SMITH
Associated Press Writer

INDIANAPOLIS -- Indiana House Speaker Patrick Bauer said he endorsed Democrat Hillary Clinton for president at the request of Indiana Sen. Evan Bayh and because he believes it could lead to Bayh becoming the vice presidential nominee.

When asked whether Bayh told him that Clinton's nomination would help him become her running mate, Bauer said, "I can't say he said that exactly, but I know that's the case."

When asked exactly what he did say, Bauer said, "I think he says she's going to win and that he is very close to her and they work well together and hope to work very well together in the future."

Bayh endorsed Clinton last month, saying she was a "seasoned, experienced leader who will be ready to lead this country on day one." But he dismissed speculation that part of his motivation for endorsing Clinton was to enhance his odds of being chosen running mate.

...

Several political analysts and observers say Bayh is likely to be considered as Clinton's running mate if she gets the nomination. It would give the ticket a centrist Democrat and a former, popular governor from a Republican-leaning state.

The Clinton campaign announced Oct. 15 that Bauer, former Indiana House Speaker John Gregg, former Indiana first lady Judy O'Bannon and four other big-name Democrats in Indiana had signed up to become co-chairs of her campaign in the state.

...

Indy wrote "Carryng over old posts with attacks from another thread....against blog rules. That's all."

To what attack are you referring?

Ron Paul heading this thread?  Good grief.

Gravel excluded?  Good grief.

 Judy, are you saying you'll vote for any horrible dem just to keep a horrible repug from winning?  That's what Pelosi is counting on - total capitulation by us.

Won't work this time on me.  It's nice here in Argentina as an ex-pat.

* rdorgan
Mon, 10/22/07
12:10 pm

Clinton / Bayh. That's where we're headed if people agree already to vote for any old yellow dog Dem. The DLC is salivating....I know Bayh. He'll be a great wallflower for the Clintons.

We can do better than that!

IT

What does IT really mean ?

It could mean the Inevitable Train, the one with Hillary as the engineer and Bill the one collecting tickets.

I was doing a crossword puzzle when it pulled into the station, so I missed it.

Drats, there goes my reward as a political operative, staff employee in a Hill/Bill administration.

Just saw your question, sea.

I have a vote. Not using it or writing in someone when that means that the repugnant Republican will win as a result are not options for me.

I'm sorry, but that's the way I see it and I call it. You have to make your own decision for yourself.

I don't see it as *capitulation.* I see it as using my vote to be able to complain about the person I voted against and to hold the person for whom I voted to a standard of conduct, even if that person disappoints me. Then, if they do, I have every right to complain about that person too.

Now really gone.

I don't believe in rewarding a party that prides itself on being not quite as bad as the other guys. In the long run I think the nation will be better off if we wipe the smirks off the faces of DLC-DINOs like Schumer, Emanuel, Nelson, Hoyer, Pelosi, Reid, Feinstein, and many others by letting the party go down to defeat.

I want these smug, condescending bastards to have to come back to their base and erstwhile supporters on their knees, begging for forgiveness, and vowing to reflect the will of the voters in future.

Mike wrote "Well Tom, you’ve pissed off enough people here today.......we don’t need to fuel the fire anymore..you are doing fine by yourself." I wrote "Is that how you view your role in the blog discussion? Making sure you don’t piss anyone off?", meaning if I’m somehow perceived as having pissed people off, is this considered to be some kind of unseemly conduct instead of transacting in the marketplace of ideas? I was previously asking Mike to, in his mind, piss people off by airing instead of suppressing his views about the DNC Chair.

If this is what passes for attacks on the modern day blog, I’m a little concerned for the open expression of ideas on it in the future.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/10/22/74234/272

FOR EXAMPLE

http://www.counterpunch.org/cohn10222007.html

The Michael Mukasey Senate Judiciary Committee confirmation hearing has demonstrated that Mukasey cannot be relied upon to function independently as U.S. Attorney General. Nevertheless, Senators on the Senate Judiciary Committee seem so thrilled that Mukasey is not Alberto Gonzales that they're willing to vote for him even though he's another loyal Bushie. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.), chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, backed down on his promise to hold up the confirmation hearing until the administration turned over material his committee had requested regarding several investigations. Leahy said of Mukasey after the hearing, "He's at least answered the questions, which is better than his predecessor. He's going to be different than Gonzales on all the issues, I think. He will certainly be better than Gonzales on morale."

Some of Mukasey's testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee should have raised red flags in the minds of Democratic Senators. Mukasey refused to reject the notion that the President can constitutionally violate FISA. He misread the Supreme Court's recent decision in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, which clearly rejected Bush's claim that Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions doesn't protect al-Qaeda prisoners. Common Article 3 prohibits torture and cruel or inhuman treatment of all prisoners. In fact, the Hamdan Court referred to possible liability under the U.S. War Crimes Act for those who violate Common Article 3. And when asked about contempt charges against witnesses who refuse to respond to congressional subpoenas, Mukasey said he would refuse to follow the statute that requires a U.S. attorney to refer contempt citations to a grand jury.

Nonetheless, Mukasey appears to be a shoo-in, with the Senate proceedings resembling a charade. One month before Mukasey was tapped by Bush for AG, the former federal judge penned an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal complaining about too much due process in terrorism prosecutions and advocating special courts where the Constitution wouldn't get in the way of catching the bad guys.

AND WE'RE SUPPOSED TO RE-ELECT THESE CLOWNS?

Libertarianism = an excuse for negligence

25. Howard Dean, anyone?

Gotta run but I'm missing Howard Dean this election cycle.

Ron Paul voted against government relief to the victims of Hurricane Katrina. Indeed, he was proud of this vote and brashly asked:
"Is bailing out people that chose to live on the coastline a proper function of the federal government?" he asks. "Why do people in Arizona have to be robbed in order to support the people on the coast?"

Why Congressman? Because that's what makes us who we are. The sense of community, that we are all Americans and that in times of need we help our neighbors.
------------

???
Yes, "we all Americans" BUT "people that CHOSE to live on the coastline" DID NOT ASK NEITHER PERMISSION NOR ADVICE FROM THE REST OF US if we DON'T MIND if they'll live in places where natural disasters are almost regularly scheduled events!

"Freedom" to choose place where to live (and then to expect receiving almost regularly home insurance from the rest of us) is a 2-way street.

There is a HUGE(!!!) justification, imo, in such Ron Paul's position!

John wrote "I want these smug, condescending bastards to have to come back to their base and erstwhile supporters on their knees, begging for forgiveness, and vowing to reflect the will of the voters in future."

The vengeance motif is intriguing from a strictly psychological perspective, but what is with this "rewarding a party"? Do you believe I’m calling on people to write in a Republican if they can’t support the Democrat for president in 2008 because the party deserves some sort of reward?

Let me make something clear. I didn’t think Gore or Dean were the ideal candidates. I’m not even sure Wellstone would have been or Feingold would be. I just thought they were, or think they would be, far better than some of the alternative options and I’m a political pragmatist. I want the better option to prevail. In my view, Nader would make an outstanding president, but a vote for him was one vote Gore didn’t get, so I didn’t cast it, thinking Gore was superior to Bush by leagues.

Mukasey is an elitist.  It's not an unusual attitude for a judge.  Indeed, it's what makes it attractive to be one--the assumption that one is better than, not just different from other people.

Howard and I passed in the air.  He on his way to Oregon, and me on my way back from a conference and some vacation time.  I was happy to be able to listen to Air America and other progressive talk most of the time in the Northwest on stations either in Oregon or Washington. Saw my first snow of the season (and missed out on seeing Crater Lake because the snow closed the road).

What to do if someone as not-progressive as Hillary gets the Democratic nomination is the question dejour.

I don't have an answer in the short term.  I really don't want Mitt Romney, or even Rudy, picking three Supreme Court Justices.

Longer term, we need to take over a political party.  The Democrats are the obvious first thought, although any party can be turned.  A party's nature as a political and democratic (little d) animal makes it possible if we can assemble and mobilize. 

It'll take a more organized effort than we have had so far. DFA has encouraged people to get involved in their local parties, but "take over" hasn't been its primary goal.

So maybe we need another organization, formally affiliated or not, whose goal is the takeover of the Democratic Party by progressive forces.  I'd set as a target date, before the 2010 elections. 

Why then? 

• The 2010 elections pick the state legislatures that will control redistricting based on the 2010 census.
• That's roughly the time the rules for nominating the 2012 Presidential candidates wil be developed within the party
• If Hillary gets elected, all the DLC types will be too busy looking for White House offices to pay attention to the Party.

This needs to be an organization with strategy, tactics, fundraising, boots on the ground, the whole shebang!  It needs to be singly focused, although the support of other groups, blogs, etc may be solicited and welcomed.

Discussion? 

former wrote "Yes, 'we all Americans' BUT 'people that CHOSE to live on the coastline' DID NOT ASK NEITHER PERMISSION NOR ADVICE FROM THE REST OF US if we DON'T MIND if they'll live in places where natural disasters are almost regularly scheduled events!"

Ha ha.  So fuck 'em.  You really are a Libertarian.  How did Al Gore ever appeal to you as a candidate?

On education:

He'd get rid of the Department of Education and leave the business of schooling to local governments, because he believes that's what the Constitution intended.

--------------

???

Yes he is against ANY Govermental (up-down!!!) intrusion into citizens' life.

But he is NOT against but FOR VOLUNTARY cooperation and agreements BETWEEN citizens in ANY area, including, of course education.

Quite progressive agenda, imo!

rich^kolker
Mon, 10/22/07
12:33 pm

Rich, You were in God's country. I used to fight forest fires just south of Crater Lake. Have hiked all over that country.

The problem with a Dem "takeover" strategy is that we will and have been seen as "outsiders". They, the Dem establishment, has effectively isolated some, marginalized others and coopted a few. That will only happen again.

I think IF Democrats really continue to cave going up against a President with 25% approval rating, and nominate a DLC ticket, we would have better odds of creating a Progressive People's party. It wouldn't take a large number of people to do this in each CD. We could run our own slate of candidates and collaborate with the Dem party WHEN we choose to. If we were able to flex muscle by causing a few Dems to lose elections (but not the majority), we would NOT be taken for granted.

Some might say, "why not the Green party?" IMO, the Greens are always working alone rather than with other progressives. They have not made much progress and generally REFUSE to work with Democrats much.

35.

Tom Bearse
Mon, 10/22/07
12:33 pm


former wrote "Yes, 'we all Americans' BUT 'people that CHOSE to live on the coastline' DID NOT ASK NEITHER PERMISSION NOR ADVICE FROM THE REST OF US if we DON'T MIND if they'll live in places where natural disasters are almost regularly scheduled events!"

Ha ha. So fuck 'em.
---------

No, I did not suggest to "fuck 'em".

I've only suggested to apply justification.
If THEY CHOSE to live there WITHOUT OUR CONSENT then WE CAN'T be RESPONSIBLE to pay regularly!

On Libertarians -- there's plenty wrong w/ Ron Paul, but I don't think the Gov't owes me anything. I'm supposed to earn/kill/harvest it myself. If I choose to procreate, Im supposed to earn/kill/harvest whatever the offspring needs. When the Gov't DOES come through it's a pleasant surprise, eg, FEMA tent giving out FREE water/ice after a hurricane, paramedics doing an admirable job after a car wreck.

On Third Party -- yes we need to do something. I'm not sure we can highjack the Democrats. I think they are the other side of the unlucky coin we found out in the street saying 'Republican.' To me the answer is to get money out of the picture. Gov't financed elections, some ethics rules for lobbyists and lawmakers. The problem is the HENS in the HENHOUSE are making the rules. Don't know what the solution is. A PURPLE ALLIANCE!! I guess.

      Ron Paul is my representative on the coastal area of Texas.  I can tell you he will 1) Vote EXACTLY as he indicates on his web-site, 2) Always answer your e-mails with detailed answers, 3) He is intelligent and well-respected in what is a quite conservative area  

    He wil NOT --now, or ever-- change his positions on social programs.

    He will NOT support them in any way.

   Please DFA'ers, if you care about social programs  do not urge either him or his supporters on --put your efforts into your choice of a good Dem field.  

Shirlee in Texas

Annilow
Mon, 10/22/07
12:47 pm

That's what makes us at least close to a civilized SOCIETY. That we care about others and are willing to help them in need. Rugged individualism of the kind Ron Paul advocates is regressive. Hopefully, we can see through that and MAKE government work for people again.

Shirlee Murphy
Mon, 10/22/07
12:50 pm

Thanks Shirlee, for your on the ground views. Don't worry -- I don't think DFA is in danger of supporting Ron Paul. Come back and share your insights again.

   P.S.  Howard was MY MAN in 2004 and supported him hugely--just don't post much--arthritic hands.  but I love all the discussions.

former wrote "No, I did not suggest to 'fuck 'em'."

Sorry, my mistake.  I could have sworn you did.

41. Ok I care about people in need but I don't OWE people in need. I get bothered by people who have, say, flat screen TVs that don't have car insurance and run into me. I don't have a flat screen TV b/c I'm responsible and spent my $ on car insurance. People who have 4 kids under 4 and look to society to help care for them, feed them, give them free healthcare and foodstamps. Why did they have all those kids? There's civilized and then there's I don't know what -- I believe in self reliance. And I get REALLY bothered by people who don't care for their pets. That has nothing to do with anything except maybe being responsible, I guess.

Shirllee wrote "Howard was MY MAN in 2004 and supported him hugely--just don't post much--arthritic hands.  but I love all the discussions."

How cool.  I hope you feel the urge to contribute more, anyway.

43. Shirlee -- keep offering your insights -- glad to know you're lurking and speaking out when need be.

Annilow wrote "I get bothered by people who have, say, flat screen TVs that don't have car insurance and run into me."

Ha ha.  This would certainly be a different place without your posts, Annilow.

41.

Indy Steve
Mon, 10/22/07
12:53 pm


That's what makes us at least close to a civilized SOCIETY. That we care about others and are willing to help them in need. Rugged individualism of the kind Ron Paul advocates is regressive. Hopefully, we can see through that and MAKE government work for people again.

-----------

There is no need to jump back and force between "Rugged individualism" and "irresponsible/unaccounted collectivism".

Yes, society members are "care about others and are willing to help them in need" HOWEVER if such a "need" is a sequence of almost REGULARLY scheduled disaster then IT IS NOT a "NEED" but a "WASTE"!

In such cases members of society should ask question, IN WHOSE INTERESTS people settle in so dangerous to live places?

48.

Tom Bearse
Mon, 10/22/07
1:05 pm
That's what my Mom would have called a backhanded compliment? But back at ya.

Indy and Rich. I think we do need a 3rd, progressive party. The top draw for me in the Dean Movement was "taking back the Democratic Party". We can all see how well that worked.

Indy, I also agree that the Greens are not the 3rd pary we seek. They're progressive enough on the issues, but are forever being ripped apart by internal dissension. In fact, one of their biggest rifts is over the issue of cooperating with vs competing against Democrats.

"The incredible Mrs.Pritchard" is a wonderful fantasy which worked in large part, because the media covered her and her campaign, which was a grass-roots, bottom-up affair. Rupert Murdoch and his reactionary colleagues are not likely to allow respectful or sympathetic coverage of any progressive third party.

45.

Annilow
Mon, 10/22/07
1:03 pm

Reply to this

41. Ok I care about people in need but I don't OWE people in need. I get bothered by people who have, say, flat screen TVs that don't have car insurance and run into me. I don't have a flat screen TV b/c I'm responsible and spent my $ on car insurance. People who have 4 kids under 4 and look to society to help care for them, feed them, give them free healthcare and foodstamps. Why did they have all those kids? There's civilized and then there's I don't know what -- I believe in self reliance. And I get REALLY bothered by people who don't care for their pets. That has nothing to do with anything except maybe being responsible, I guess.
------------

!!!

Worthy point too!

We may even AGREE to OWE others to support them in case of TRUE unexpected disaster BUT NOT the one which IS EXPECTED and certain to happen!

Annilow
Mon, 10/22/07
1:03 pm

I believe in individual responsibility too. But I wouldn't punish their children for their mistakes. And the notion that poor people are there because they want to be on the "public dole" is a Conservative, right-wing myth for the most part.

We can have social programs for people in need, universal health care and individual responsibility. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Ron Paul wants to eliminate social security (or privatize it). SS is the most important social program to retain. People who have worked all their lives and paid in with their own money should not be abandoned in a civil society.

And I get REALLY bothered by people who don't care for their pets.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

yeah Anni,

What a great post, and THIS is where the Dems have lost many people........and will continue to lose people............and barking dogs left out all day and feral cats crappin all over our yards stinks too.............

Many "old schoolers" are where we are today not by handouts but by good old fashioned hard work and education..............nobody ever asked anything from the state and expected anything from it...........

Drive by. I thought FRED might find this article interesting (and quite scary) concerning high level of chemicals in toddler's bloodstream.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/10/...

Also sending good thoughts and vibes to Californians today. The fires are out of control.

44.

Tom Bearse
Mon, 10/22/07
1:02 pm

Reply to this

former wrote "No, I did not suggest to 'fuck 'em'."

Sorry, my mistake. I could have sworn you did.
-----------

To get sworn about OWN impression does not make it factual truth.

former
Mon, 10/22/07
1:14 pm

So let 'em burn or drown. It's their own fault? Not my idea of caring.

I'm not against requiring insurance for those who choose to live in risky areas. But they are human beings and shouldn't be abandoned.

I'm a little more rovian in my "support" of Paul because he points out the no clothes aspect of the emperor on the war and drives away the libertarians from the Republican fascists.

I'm glad to see him have such large support from their side.

I wouldn't want him as my Congressman Shirlee you have my sympathy.

Reid and Pelosi

Michael Ellis
Mon, 10/22/07
1:18 pm

Hey, Mike. Newsflash. Education from K-12 is publicly funded. And many people received their College ed from state schools (75% public money) and Federal grants/loans.

Our entire market economy is based upon the state providing the rules and filling in the gaps which the private market doesn't. Noone EVER made it on their own. Well, except for the caveman but even he needed to form into social groups to survive.

former wrote "To get sworn about OWN impression does not make it factual truth."

No, but it could.

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/89/89qupdate.phtml

...

Dennis Miller: And now here with a commentary is Grumpy Old Man! Welcome, Grumpy! [applause for Grumpy Old Man, an elderly, bespectacled, gray-haired man in a sweater]

Grumpy Old Man: I'm oooooold! And I'm not happy! And I don't like things now compared to the way they used to be. All this progress -- phooey! In my day, we didn't have these cash machines that would give you money when you needed it. There was only one bank in each state -- it was open only one hour a year. And you'd get in line, seventeen miles long, and the line became an angry mob of people -- fornicators and thieves, mutant children and circus freaks -- and you waited for years and by the time you got to the teller, you were senile and arthritic and you couldn't remember your own name. You were born, got in line, and ya died! And that's the way it was and we liked it!

Life was simpler then. There wasn't all this concern about hy-giene! It my days, we didn't have Kleenex. When you turned seventeen, you were given the family handkerchief. ... It hadn't been washed in generations and it stood on its own ... filled with diseases and swarmin' with flies. ... If you tried to blow your nose, you'd get an infection and your head would swell up and turn green and children would burst into tears at the sight o' ya! And that's the way it was and we liked it!

Life was a carnival! We entertained ourselves! We didn't need moooovin' pitchurrrres. In my day, there was only one show in town -- it was called "Stare at the sun!" ... That's right! You'd sit in the middle of an open field and stare up at the sun till your eyeballs burst into flames! And you thought, "Oh, no! Maybe I shouldn't've stared directly into the burning sun with my eyes wide open." But it was too late! Your head was on fire and people were roastin' chickens over it. ... And that's the way it was and we liked it!

Progress?! Flobble-de-flee! In my day, when we were angry and frustrated, we just said, "Flobble-de-flee!" 'cause we were idiots and we didn't know what else to say! Just a bunch o' illiterate Cro-Magnons, blowin' on crusty handkerchiefs, waitin' in lines for our head to burst into flame and that's the way it was and we liked it!

Dennis Miller: Grumpy Old Man! Thank you, Grumpy! [applause, Dennis tries to shake Grumpy Old Man's hand but Grumpy Old Man is too ornery to shake anybody's hand, dadgummit]

Grumpy Old Man: Flobble-de-flee! [exits]

Dennis Miller: Thank you, Grumpy!

...

Bonddad on KOS

http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/linkframe.php?linkid=44179

OK -- let's review why I'm so damn pissed off at the Democratic Leadership.

Speaker Pelosi -- one of your members said that Bush "just likes to blow things up."  And then it was reported that you weren't gong to back his play.  What is God's name are you afraid of?  Rush "I have a pimple on my ass so I don't need to go to Vietnam" Limbaugh?  Sean Hannity calling you a name?  Getting bad press?  Leadership is about leading -- which means standing up to the idiot inhabiting the White House using this thing called the Constitution like toilet paper.  For God's sake, show some spine.

And Senator Reid -- one of your fellow Senators has decided to place a hold on a bill granting blanket immunity to the telecom industry.  There is evidence that telecoms were spying on Americans before the "9/11 changed everything" arguments even entered national discourse.  You might want to consult this quaint document called the Constitution, especially the Fourth Amendment about search and seizures requiring probable cause.

And before I get the, "you don't understand the stakes involved because you are a mighty member of Congress and I am but a lowly citizen" garbage, let me remind you that I am your boss -- not the other way around.

53.

Indy Steve
Mon, 10/22/07
1:18 pm


Ron Paul wants to eliminate social security (or privatize it)........
------

Yes..., only as WE KNOW IT...been run by Government!

It's easy to jump into spanned by "prof" Demos' band wagon against gaining UNDERSTANDING and POPULARITY Ron Paul's stances.

It's harder to try to realize what his libertarianism actually means..., and when do then it becomes clear that IT IS about "liberty FOR people to cooperate" and "liberty FROM Government to dictate and rule".

And former, I live in tornado alley....are you going to abandon me if/when a tornado wipes me out? Of course, I have insurance but I am glad public services are available.

Or earthquakes and fires in California? Floods and hurricanes? yeah, let's just let 'em twist in the wind.

I love sharing lunch here. The voice of democracy.

Indy Steve
Mon, 10/22/07
1:24 pm
___________________________________________________________________________

Publicly funded is the key word..........not state funded............and as far as the state grants for college education they were/are and will continue to be minimal at best..........at least for those from a certain economic background............

Indy Steve
Mon, 10/22/07
1:29 pm
___________________________________________________________________________

No, you can move in with Tom........although Detroit is more of a sentencing and I dont you believe you would be guilty of anything then................rebuild.

I could never vote for a person with two first names --

-- the name's Paul, Ron Paul

(hmhhh, just doesn't have that Bond, James Bond sound to it)

Michael Ellis
Mon, 10/22/07
1:31 pm

Public funding vs. State funding = no difference. The point of a democracy is that WE ARE THE GUBMENT! Of course, we need to work on that part! 

State Colleges are 75% funded by state Leg and about 25% from tuition.

44.

Tom Bearse
Mon, 10/22/07
1:02 pm

...I could have sworn you did.


61.

Tom Bearse
Mon, 10/22/07
1:25 pm


former wrote "To get sworn about OWN impression does not make it factual truth."

No, but it could.
------------

I guess, Tom you should first to decide for yourself either "I did" or "I could"..., lol.

Phil Specht
Mon, 10/22/07
1:30 pm

Care to share your lunch with us?!! ;-)

Democrats would have been complicit in the dismantling of Social Security if we hadn't risen up.

70.

Indy Steve
Mon, 10/22/07
1:34 pm


Public funding vs. State funding = no difference. The point of a democracy is that WE ARE THE GUBMENT! Of course, we need to work on that part!
-----------

The last part in your statement should be the first one, imo.

We may continue to live in a dream world with equal sign in between..., it WON'T make it equal however!

"Government" and "Public" ARE VERY DIFFERENT THINGS indeed!

Michael Ellis
Mon, 10/22/07
1:32 pm

LOL. Thanks a lot. Tom B. might not like that idea! And Detroit is on the rebound. It can only get better!

It's hard to feel sorry for all those rich rethug homes about to burn in California, but of couse I do and we should help them too! ♥ to California burning.

Indy Steve I'm having a bowl of chili at the keyboard and the discussion here is better than anyother blog site. stop by and I'll get you a bowl

Wild Willies burnt to the ground here this morning so I won't be stopping there for a slice of pizza and a beer when I'm trucking that direction anymore.

I hope he had insurance because I don't think I should help to pay for his rebuilding more than in the price of his pizza

65.

Indy Steve
Mon, 10/22/07
1:29 pm

And former, I live in tornado alley....are you going to abandon me if/when a tornado wipes me out? Of course, I have insurance but I am glad public services are available.

Or earthquakes and fires in California? Floods and hurricanes? yeah, let's just let 'em twist in the wind.
---------

Why areas where disasters hit almost REGULARLY(!!!) should be choose to live in?

You think it is your "freedom" to chose it?
Ok, that's fine..., but that freedom of yours must not IMPOSE on me the "freedom" to pay REGULARLY(!!!) for your "freedom" to live there.

Agree?

My health care abortion reform would include paying women NOT to have children which would be their choice; free condoms for all everywhere (meaning we'd have to kill off the RW and condemn the Bible), reversible mandatory vasectomies for boys, reversible tubals for girls, licenses to marry, to drive cars, AND to have children or limit each family to one child. (Parents must undergo therapy to make sure they are capable of caring for a child...  in other words, alcoholics and drug addicts shouldn't have children)

We have a mental illness/alcoholic/drug/sex addicted society.  That needs to be addressed.  Look at our crazy critters and the monsters in the BH

We need free mental health care starting at age 2 or 3 and teach logic, critical thinking starting in grade school.

I'm most people's nightmare.  And unrealistic except for the condoms and reversible goodies.

Limit families to one child...more nightmare ideas.

What to do about 08?  If Gore doesn't run, I'm at a loss, but would be solidly behind a third party, combining with the greens and other disenchanted folks.  I'm somewhat of Sitka's point of view that we should just let a repug win, and let the dems know that they can't rule w/o our permission.  

We need IRV and could at least start here with our poll we have going.  And then maybe as individuals, we could start sending money to the winner.

Stop sending money, which I have done. (except to Gore)

The DLC thinks it has us by the ba!!s and that we'll vote anybody but repugs.  I don't like to be used and manipulated and Kerry was the last straw for me.  

So I think we need to get organized and stop Clinton first, along with Obama.  I could barely stand Edwards...barely.  And I'd happily vote for Dodd despite his flaws.  But Clinton?  How do we stop her?

A Constitution would help us too. 

How's Keithie doing lately?   

BTW I'm not a regular, just a pizza fan, but everyone should have a watering hole with a name like Wild Willies.

party on Sox fans

Phil Specht
Mon, 10/22/07
1:43 pm

Ah, chili. I like it hot! No, we shouldn't bail people out (wild) willy nilly...but public services like fire, temporary support, education (and health care) should be available whether they pay their "fair share" or not. 

former
Mon, 10/22/07
1:45 pm

No, don't agree. I don't think we ought to rebuild their homes FOR them for free. But disasters happen. Require insurance in disaster-prone areas, yes. But I am willing to be there for people hard hit because they will be there for me. That's a social contract.

Mike wrote "No [Indy], you can move in with Tom........although Detroit is more of a sentencing and I dont you believe you would be guilty of anything then."

I would have to discuss that with my wife, but you should feel welcome to come by anytime Indy. I’m sure we’d have things to talk about! I have to warn you advance, however, we do not live in a gated community, so you might find Mike’s lavish digs more accommodating.

So, former, all the people living below sea level in New Orleans....we shoulda just left him to fend for themselves? Ooops, Well, we actually did and it was a stain on our so-called civil society that was laid bare for the rest of the world to see.

Same to you, Tom. Any DFA'er is welcome in my house.

I just want to ride one time in Mike's sportscar.....with the top down!

Public funding vs. State funding = no difference. The point of a democracy is that WE ARE THE GUBMENT! Of course, we need to work on that part!
-----------

Former wrote: The last part in your statement should be the first one, imo.

Agreed!

Phil made me hungry! Gotta go eat now. BBL

I've never had children but my property taxes pay for other peoples' kids to go to school.   I drive a small car but pay taxes to fix roads that are decimated by the SUVs.  It's hard to be fair, so I say,  tax the heck outta the CEOs and people making over a million a year. 

The difference between rich and poor is too great these days to be healthy for the country.

Campaign financing the way it is now has to change and give everyone equal amounts of face tv time and money. Same day primaries so Clinton machine types don't sew up the nomination with money in states like NH and IA.

Discouraging isn't it, how far off track we are. 

81.

Indy Steve
Mon, 10/22/07
1:50 pm

...But disasters happen....

---------

If disaster happen almost REGULARLY this is NOT a "disaster" any longer but consistent action of nature in a given area.
Therefore People MAY DECIDE(!!!) NOT to support (not to fund) that areas for leaving.

(Of course none can deprive anyone from still leaving there nevertheless on his/her own risk). I think it is justifiable and agree with Ron Paul on that.

* rdorgan
Mon, 10/22/07
1:57 pm

Wow, looks like the 2nd coming! Wish I could attend. Noone comes to Indiana ;-(

seashell :-)
Mon, 10/22/07
1:57 pm

HI, Sea. Enjoying Argentina?

ONe small problem with your idea: Same day national primaries would favor the well-known big money candidates. Our only HOPE is a few small states like IA and NH. And I think we're going to see some surprises there.

83.

Indy Steve
Mon, 10/22/07
1:52 pm


So, former, all the people living below sea level in New Orleans....we shoulda just left him to fend for themselves? Ooops, Well, we actually did and it was a stain on our so-called civil society that was laid bare for the rest of the world to see.
------

I'm saying: "People may decide".
Of course there is a chance to fund and support life on Mars, for example.

Can People afford it and even if they do, does it make sense?
That's the question.

89.

yeah, I'd love to see Deval Patrick (two for the price of one) as well as BO but can't due to scrapping together working a second job before exiting the States on this Thurs

MA here is Clinton country (what with Martha's Vineyard being the Clinton's second [or is it third] home virtually), so it will be interesting to see what happens when I return.

I still remember in late 2003 having to explain to MA folks why I was supporting Dean rather than Kerry.  Most didn't get it.

I don't think we've really tried to take back the Democratic Party.  It never got more from DFA 2.0 than "you go do it!" 

I think with organization it could be done, more easily that creating a new party from scratch, which was hard even for Ross the Boss with all his dough.

I'm not saying I'd never look at a completely new party, but I think it's second choice. 

HJ 25, maryvb 30....

Anyone for a Howard Dean?

Yes, I'll take a Howard Dean. How many can we have?

Speech in Boston?

 Already had one!

http://www.crocuta.net/Dean/Transcript_of_DemocracyFreedomAction_Sept23_2003.htm 

96.

Yeah, rich, I unfortunately missed that one too. (if it wasn't for Peterborough, NH in early Jan 04, I never would have heard or seen Howard in person)

Oh for Pete's dake, Sea, people paid for you to go to school, to have fire protection, police protection, roads, etc.  That argument is what right wing ideologues make.  And, your Draconian rules do make me crazy.  How is that different from a Totalitarian state??? How is that different from a totally homogenous population, like something out of Brave New World?

Our social contract extends to all people, the planet, and we are not worlds unto ourselves, and the free market would have us adopt the mantra that greed is good as long as I get to be greedy.  Humans have survived because of diversity, of people with different talents contributing to a whole, but you pay taxes for other people's children?? God forbid.  I supose you'd get rid of libraries too.

And here's a letter to Nancy Pelosi I sent and called to record.

Dear Mrs. Pelosi,
I am more than dismayed. I wonder if our Congressional Representatives have any idea of the perception of the people with respect to their efforts and accomplishments. 

Instead of changing direction and stopping an illegal war, Congress has funded it.  All you had to do was prevent the bill from coming up for a vote. There were and are a variety of ways of constraining an administration that is clearly insane, or have you all convinced yourself that what has been effected by this administration is sanity?

We are about the same age, Mrs. Pelosi, and I'm aware of courtesy, circumspect rhetoric, and solidity and the importance it plays in our national dialogue, but frankly, your rhetoric and that of the Congress has entered the realm of Disneyland. We have an administration that has defied and weakened the Constitution, an illegal war, a secret policy of torture and spying, spending that is out of control, and a blinkered faith that Republican ideologues are capable of compromise for the good of the country.

Mrs. Pelosi this is not leadership, courage, or integrity, and many of us can no longer in conscience support a Democratic party that is craven and complicit.  I am more than disappointed in your leadership and that of your colleagues.

Sincerely,
Pat Maslowski  

Thank you Tom for the luck on my mouth :)

...It seems to have worked, happy to say. Not in as much pain as last weeks, but too, I'm still numb...., so I better get my herbs ready. Day 2 and 3 are always the joy. So why did I even bother mentioning not being in pain. The good part is this Dr. really seems thorough and skilled, so I hope things will be good and more confident they will.

Rich 34.....

I like the idea. I also like the fact that we are starting to confront the bushdems in the primaries, and hope we really get into that.

Do we need another organization? Could we simply sit the blog down, talk it over, and decide what it is we want to do and how, and have DFA begin to put it together?

Oct 22

National Nurses Movement Lauds Al Gore For Leadership On Single-Payer Healthcare


The California Nurses Association/National Nurses Organizing Committee thanks Al Gore for his forceful new words in support of the kind of universal, non-profit, single-payer healthcare that this country desperately needs-and that is succeeding in nearly every other industrialized democracy.

The statement reflects a growing national consensus that a national, non-profit insurance system would clearly out-perform the private insurance corporations that spend up to one-third of their overhead on overhead and profits … and that it is long past time to put an end to the nation’s healthcare crisis.

On this issue, however, the public is far ahead of most of the political class. A March New York Times/CBS poll found that the vast majority of Americans want a total restructuring of the healthcare system, and preferred a single-payer system to the current private insurance system 47% to 38%. Unfortunately, many politicians continue to accept money from health insurance corporations, and push plans that mandate Americans to purchase expensive and inefficient private insurance products.

“Al Gore has long been a champion of the environment-and now he’s a champion of America’s patients. There is only one solution to our healthcare crisis, and that is the kind of guaranteed, non-profit, single-payer health insurance that we know works,” said Zenei Cortez, RN, a member of CNA/NNOC’s Council of Presidents.

Called “Healthcare Is A Right,” Gore released the following statement on his Current television channel :

I strongly support universal, single-payer, government-provided-or, government-funded-healthcare. It doesn’t mean the government runs it, it has competition among the different providers. But I just think that we’ve long since reached the stage that its immoral to put people in a situation where they cannot get the medical care they need because their incomes aren’t high enough. I think it ought to be a matter of right and our current system just doesn’t work, its way too expensive. The quality of healthcare is excellent for those who have enough money to buy the very best, but lower-income and low middle-income Americans are not getting good healthcare and so many now can’t afford the private health insurance that they’re going without insurance, millions and millions of people. And I think that to eliminate the incredibly ridiculous cost of all this unnecessary paperwork and different standards for different companies, it is time to have universal health insurance.

http://www.calnurses.org

former, where do you live? And what crystal ball do you use to predict that your "safe" area will never fall to disaster?

The fires in So Cal started with downed power lines due to wind. WIND! Even you can't stop the wind. But today you do seem to be full of some of it.

6.Deaniac in GA

"Huckabee came across as a GOP Jimmy Carter (open, honet and saintly), and the evangelicals loved Jimmy until Reagan turned their heads four years later (how, I will never understand).
================

The Democratic party was split into disarray and was not united. There was much bickering among divisions. Carter was trying to be in the middle so nobody liked him. At one point he was actually called a rascist.

The country was watching the high-rise tenements being imploded and the debris that remained in them were going into the neighborhoods causing white flight and panic.

CETA was a huge boondoggle, and there were scandals of grants and paychecks going to people that did nothing.

The Democrats were speaking for feminist groups that were attempting to frame abortion next to Rosa Parks and apple pie. People wanted it to be legal but they did not want it glorified.

Reagan and the Republicans looked like a breath of fresh air to many with all this as a backdrop.

98

I'm with you here, Pat. The value of public education exceeds to all of society! I don't have kids, either, but I gladly paid my property taxes when I owned a home. And I went one step further. I ran for school board and won so I could see where the money went to firsthand. Did all of that holding down a full time job.

And while I do understand about taxing the rich more, and I sure don't make a CEO's salary - not by a long shot. But my salary, and being single with no kids, would probably put me in the pretty well off category.

According to some, I should be taxed more or, perhaps, give it all up and go live in a cardboard box. I worked hard for the past 35 years to get here. So let's stop with the "tax the high earners" crap. There are plenty of progressives that fall into that category due to no other circumstances than hard work and perserverance.

98. Pat

had to stop back to make a phone call (how quaint huh? telephone in house)  ... anyhow you nailed it with your letter to Pelosi.

I say to the Democratic majority ... people voted you into power ... use it or lose it

bbl

56.mary vb

Drive by. I thought FRED might find this article interesting (and quite scary) concerning high level of chemicals in toddler's bloodstream.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/10/...

================
Thanks Mary. This is very interesting. PBDEs are everywhere. The end of the article shows how bad the government monitoring is for chemicals everywhere in the human environment.

On PBS they explained that chemicals are affecting the human epigenome, something we know little about.

The chemicals in our environment actually effect the function of the genome. They found identical twin. One was prone to cancer and one was not. This prompted the first research. They found that the chemical that enter your body can effect not only you, but at least the next couple of generations.

Our high tech man-on-the-moon government is doing virtually nothing to regulate this problem. In fact the Neocons are encouraging more of it, and more money for drugs to treat the victims, of course. That makes money.

45 years after Silent Spring and it seems like we've learned nothing and chemical companies still rule.

99. Linda - what are you having done? Teeth pulled or worse? Drugs are wonderful things.

98. Pat I agree that there are certain responsibilities we share in a complex society like police and fire. It's beyond that that the controversy arises. I like paramedics and 911 too. I think healthcare should be universal. In addition to everyone needing it, we shouldn't be slaves to jobs we hate just for the health insurance (which just may be why our Washington robber barons won't give it up-job related insurance.) I think school should be free for those who are performing and behaving. If I make F's and throw chalk, well, I don't belong there. As for children, I think they are a privilege not a right of birth. The problem is that we don't all agree on what the gov't should provide. As for SS, I'm a grateful recipient. But if I'd been paying in since age 18 and it was transferable job to job (my teaching job does not pay into SS), I would like a 401K system wherein I got the principal as well as the annuity/interest at the end. As it is, the gov't has the principal and they are blowing it on stuff like wars in Iraq. The reason I don't want SS messed with is that I kept my part of the bargain (paid in) and now I want to reap the rewards. There was an agreement and the gov't should honor their part. And btw in about a week and a half the gov't can jolly well pay for my healthcare too (Medicare).

Seashell-glad you surfaced. You too Judy.

I love chili.

San Diego is apparently on fire too. California is on fire. Georgia has no water. Sheesh.

IT

the 2008 Inevitable Train:

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2207072,00.html

Half of US says no to Hillary
 

22/10/2007 20:14  - (SA)  

Washington - Hillary Clinton may be the Democratic Party's 2008 presidential front-runner but she also tops the list when voters are asked for whom they would never, ever cast a ballot, a poll out on Monday found.

Fully 50% percent of US voters say that when it comes to Clinton, she can campaign all she likes but there is no way in the world she can win their support, with her negative rating up slightly from 46% in March, the Zogby poll said.

Older voters were the most hostile to the attorney and former first lady-turned US senator, who is seeking to become the first woman US president.

Fifty-nine percent of those older than 65 said they would never vote for Clinton, according to the survey which ranked leading Democratic and Republican hopefuls.

Clinton's Democratic rival Barack Obama drew a 37% rating of those who would never back him.

On the Republican side, front-runner Rudy Giuliani also drew a great deal of negative responses: 43% said they would never vote for him, and 42% said Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney was their choice for never.

...

102.

Denise
Mon, 10/22/07
2:30 pm


former, where do you live? And what crystal ball do you use to predict that your "safe" area will never fall to disaster?

The fires in So Cal started with downed power lines due to wind. WIND! Even you can't stop the wind. But today you do seem to be full of some of it.
---------

See above about "unpredictable" disasters and "predictable" ones.

Btw, fires in some areas of Cal happen yearly at least, if not more often. That's right I "can't stop the wind"..., that's why I don't agree to pay REGULARLY(!!!) to support public life there!
I would prefer leave those payments for those who want to experience such a WIND on consistent basis!

I put rock on a new field road and then it looked like a good site for a silage bag so now I have to build the road fence now instead of waiting til next spring which was the plan. I'll share a bowl of chili with anyone, but like my old Uncle "work for your supper" Paul will probably try to horn you into helping fence lol

104.Denise

According to some, I should be taxed more or, perhaps, give it all up and go live in a cardboard box. I worked hard for the past 35 years to get here. So let's stop with the "tax the high earners" crap....

==================
I don't know where you get your attitude, but I haven't heard any Democrat talk about taxing anyone under $200,000 but they are talking about more deductions for the middle class, well-off or not.

If you are making over $200,000 AGI, maybe you should be paying more, but I am sure you won't have to move into a paper box. You should see where I live - not because I deserve to, mind you. It is just that my contribution to society was not compensated in money, but no less necessary as I'm sure yours was.

Indy Steve
Mon, 10/22/07
1:53 pm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And I paid for the thing all by meself too!  I guess we should be given the chance as tazpayers to "select" where our $ goes............as for me.......on the dollar......

.30 universal health care

.30 ss

.25 education

.05 military/infrastructure

.05 research

.05 foreign aid

An Appreciation Of Al Gore
Hon. Wangari Maathai 10.22.07, 6:00 AM ET

Wangari Maathai


NAIROBI -

When I learned this month that the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize had been awarded to Al Gore and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) for their groundbreaking work to raise awareness about the threats posed by global warming, I was delighted.

In 1990, then Sen. Gore visited the Green Belt Movement in Kenya and later wrote about our work planting trees with poor, rural women in his book Earth in the Balance. A few years later, Vice President Gore invited me to join him on a trip to Haiti to view first-hand the effects of extreme deforestation on the country. Nearly every tree had been cut down, and people, desperate to feed themselves, had planted crops wherever they could, including on barren hillsides. When the rains came, the soil just washed away.

Unfortunately, little has changed. In times of extreme floods and hurricanes, which affect Haiti all too often, thousands of people lose their homes and their lives.

Back then, neither of us could imagine being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize or, indeed, that the Norwegian Nobel Committee would expand its conception of peace and security to encompass protecting the environment, ensuring the equitable and sustainable use of natural resources, and raising awareness of the linkages between ecological stress and conflict. By choosing Al Gore and the IPCC as this year's peace laureates, the Norwegian Nobel Committee has rightly reminded us that climate change is the single biggest threat to world peace.

full article
http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2007/10/1...

110. Phil Specht

=================
31 in 1968? You are lucky your body is still in the condition it is, to do the work you apparently do. It is difficult to get through life without injury and disability, either by luck or lack of guidance.

Wind on a consistent basis. LMAO

OK former, wherever you live, watch out for instant karma.

Peace

Can you tell I'm lonesome and bored today lol:

Strange but good recipe from old Georgia cookbook:

1 lb gr bf (season to taste-I added pepper but no salt)
Dash of Lea & Perrins
1 onion
1 can undiluted tomato soup
1 large can of Chineses style vegetables. rinse, drain
1 can Chinese noodles

Brown the bf with the ch. onion. Add the soup, veggies. Top with noodles. Bake half to one hour at about 350. Feeds an army.

Hi Folks,

We have to leave so will check back in.  Annilow, I also taught and earned Social Security, but the windfall pension offset has taken 2/3ds of that away.  It doesn't bother me, but there were teachers who retired with a $10,000 a year pension, after 25 plus years and who earned and paid into the Social Security system and have not received their earned benefits because of this.  

Frankly, I've never been rich except in all the things that matter most to me: friendships, freedom of choice, family, books, educational opportunities, being able to work at what I love, living where I want to, experiences that teach, frankly, money is a poor substitute for such wealth.

I guess, I'm sick of hearing people say that they shouldn't have to contribute to society because of various reasons, and I think that is a major theme in our social dysfunction presently.  I also think that  the left wing in its way is as totalitarian as the right wing.  Diversity and creativity are the lifeblood of this planet and all its creatures and plants.  Harummph, so I'm on a soap box, but I am indeed tired of the me, me, me view of life, and as an anecdote, while at the University of Michigan, my family fell apart, went bankrupt.  A councilor in the financial office told me, a B student, that I had no business being in college since I had no money and no support system. The head of the department, a woman ( I told the councilor I wanted to talk to someone else), got me a $500 grant and a National Defense Loan, which has made all the difference in my life.

 The reasoning that says you only get what you earned would have denied me an education that has been a grace, a wonder, a joy and provided me the experiences that have literally made my life.

bbl

Indy Steve
Mon, 10/22/07
1:39 pm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Its like when I lived in So Cal.........those million dollar homes that slid down the sides of the hills in laguna beach.........thats decomposed granite you idiots!  What do you expect after a soaking rain?  crikey

Fred, as I stated, I don't make a CEO's salary, but there are many progressives who do.

My CEO is one of them! My point is, even millionaires are out there supporting our cause.

Heck the Hollywood set was all behind Howard while he was running.

102.

Denise
Mon, 10/22/07
2:30 pm

.......
The fires in So Cal started with downed power lines due to wind. WIND! Even you can't stop the wind. But today you do seem to be full of some of it.
----------

Of course there are some Demos who INTERESTED to fund public life of a FEW in those areas with property values worth of millions of $$$ PAYED by MANY...

That's exactly what Government now seems to support but Ron Paul is against!

Right on again, Pat!

I prefer Justice Kennedy's specification of "agents of government."  The people make the laws and rule.  The agents of government are tasked with carrying out the laws and regulations.  Bush Two has never carried out an assigned task.

Fred I was 21 in 1968 ... typo ... I do feel ten years older some nights ... light rain here no combining so I'm building fence (if I can just pull myself away from the blog)

107.Annilow

99. Linda - what are you having done? Teeth pulled or worse? Drugs are wonderful things.
========================

It depends. I have no use for them. I have gradually lost my tolerance for all kinds of pain relievers. They wreak semi-permanent havoc with my digestive system. I don't know what it is about them. Don't know if it is my progressive MCS acquiring sensitivity to the dyes and additives, or just allergy to the compounds themselves.

But just got done with a four day liquid fast, and GI tract is starting to feel better for the first in months. Still teetering though.

I'd rather be building a fence right now, Phil, then working on a housing list that changes by the second. But the view is still beautiful, and I'm stepping out for a late lunch.

That chili sounds good, actually....

Wow, the Obama campaign is now hitting the poll hard. It just jumped a couple thousand signatures and over 1 percent on the poll within only minutes.

Al Gore 18430 30.86%
John Edwards 12462 20.87%
Barack Obama 10635 17.81%
Dennis Kucinich 9757 16.34%
Hillary Clinton 3326 5.57%
Bill Richardson 1950 3.26%
Other 1379 2.31%
Joe Biden 715 1.2%
Mike Gravel 613 1.03%
Christopher Dodd 458 0.77%

123.Phil Specht

light rain here no combining so I'm building fence (if I can just pull myself away from the blog)

=============
I know what you mean. I love rebuilding antique motors, old sewing machines etc. taking them apart and boiling them, tinkering with computers, etc. I have to wear a mask sometimes for the vapors and smell. It is rough though in my small apartment and I get lots of headaches for days when I get ambitious. The blog keeps me out of symptomatic problems, I use it as a refuge, but I don't get anything done and the work piles up.

Trying to get set up to make organic cotton fabric stuff, but it has been years in the planning to get around the obstacle of my MCS in the equipment I use. Had to learn electricity, motors, make my own non-electronic rectifiers, etc. It has been an odyssey into how they did things in the 1920s and 1930s, and components they use in medical environments etc.

...here it goes. It's jumping 4-7 signatures every time you hit refresh.

...9....15 per refresh...


freeping

119.Denise

Fred, as I stated, I don't make a CEO's salary, but there are many progressives who do.

My CEO is one of them! My point is, even millionaires are out there supporting our cause.
========================

I don't judge people by how much money they make, but people who make over a certain amount have to realize that some of that income belongs to the country and the social environment that allows so much wealth to come into their hands.

It is a communal way of thinking and some millionairs support our causes and some don't.

You can find dirt poor people without health care who are right wing republicans and believe the state should give them nothing. They don't know for their own good.

Just as poverty for some makes us all a little poorer. Wealth for some should make us all a little richer.

Total Votes: 59931 as of Mon, 22 Oct 2007 15:17:04 -0400Candidate Votes %
Al Gore 18452 30.79%
John Edwards 12467 20.8%
Barack Obama 10754 17.94%
Dennis Kucinich 9810 16.37%
Hillary Clinton 3327 5.55%
Bill Richardson 1952 3.26%
Other 1379 2.3%
Joe Biden 715 1.19%
Mike Gravel 613 1.02%
Christopher Dodd 462 0.77%

Someone's definitely got a robot voting for obama right now.

132.

IT is not mine (mine only washes dishes).

It also applies the world over. We owe the world for much of the wealth in this country, the resources of which from other countries, both human and natural, could never be enough for everyone in the world to be as rich - not the way we did it, anyway.

RE: <Someone's definitely got a robot voting for obama right now.>>

Rich, we're doing quality control here at hq and monitoring all the votes as they come in to ensure the integrity of the voting. So far, all the votes for Obama seems legitimate. We'll definitely continue to keep an eye out for possible robot voting. 

-Ilya 

New thread

bbl

http://www.blogforamerica.com/view/22655...

Illya Sheyman-135

The problem with Obama is that he is a proud member of the DLC, just like Hillary, Edwards and Dodd:

http://blogforamerica.com/view/22628#more 

IIllya Sheyman - 135:

Also, Al Gore and Bill Richardson are members of the Right Wing's DLC.  I expect nearly everyone is, with the exception of Mike Gravel and Dennis Kucinich.  It is amazing to me that members of the Right Wing led DLC can run within the left wing Democratic Party equally the same as the  Left Wing members.  It does look like there would be a means in the Democratic Party whereby Right Wing's traitorous "we are all one"  interlopers within the party can be dismissed from Left Wing membership; instead of having to have a Right Wing of the Democratic Party, with Right Wing candidates.

138 Martha Miller, No, Al Gore is not a member of the DLC. He disasasociated himself with them after his term with the Clinton Administration.

Nice thread, I was wanted to contribute to it but then I thought, why not have Ron Paul do it.