Howard Dean is first these days.

Sitka. LOL.  A girl can dream, can't she?

Repost from last thread because I am passionate about this issue of Democrats becoming so much like Republicans through the years.  I am also very suspicious of the fact that Howard Dean's voice is totally missing from the media now.   Why should any voice in our party be hushed or even decide by themselves to be quiet.   

Democrats should treasure all voices.

 Words of peace and words of war. Lines blur between parties often now.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1506

And a reminder that Governor Howard Dean has quieted his voice, or let others do it for him....when he is a Democrat whose voice counts as much as others.    A lot of us thought this would happen.    If he thinks only Congressional voices should speak, then that means the rest of us don't get to?

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1442

"“In the beginning I was pretty outspoken but now others have that role. When you have the Speaker of the House and the Majority Leader you don’t need the chairman of the party being on the talk shows. But early on I was on a lot of those talk shows because I felt I was one of the leading spokesmen for the Democratic Party.

“You know, I am happy…but I am not as visible as I was…because we have the majority in Congress and the House. That is real power. We didn’t have that when I started and now we do. My object is not to make sure I am the center of power. My object is to make sure things get done. I am very satisfied with what is going on in Congress. I am very happy. I think Sen. Reid and Speaker Pelosi are both doing a great job and I wouldn’t say so if I didn’t think so, as you well know."

Wrong, Howard.   They seldom speak out,  and you do have a right.   So don't pull our legs with words like that.  And it is mostly paid consultants with business interests or other concerns on the air.    So I call BS on that statement.

56. seashell :-)

OK, Monica, here's the connection to Bachmann and Schirano and it's a doozy if it's true. I wonder if Biden knows about this *partition."

=================
I think Biden has said that if we don't do something to end the civil war, and to keep the de facto ethnic States united (de jure with Federalism) one of the probable scenarios could be a regional proxy war with Saudis aligning with Sunnis, and Shiites aligning with Iran, but nobody really knows.

This is no big secret. Pundit discuss it all the time

"I am very satisfied with what is going on in Congress. I am very happy. I think Sen. Reid and Speaker Pelosi are both doing a great job and I wouldn’t say so if I didn’t think so, as you well know."

Gosh it hurts to see the "What I want to know!" Dean saying such a thing. I knew there would be times like this when he took the DNC job, but that doesn't make it easier to bear.

hi kids, howard's always 1st!!! even if i'm 5th.

ok, 6th!!!

This is heartening news.

Democrats Attach Subpoena Compliance to AG Debate
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/091707R.shtml
Elana Schor reports for The Hill that Democrats plan to take their time in confirming President Bush's choice of Michael Mukasey as the next attorney general. Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy said the timeframe for confirmation would depend on the White House's willingness to comply with outstanding subpoenas on its wiretapping program, among other things.
 

sitka, that was back in April he said he approved of what they were doing in congress.   Maybe things have changed..  It is kind of sad, but a lot of us figured it would happen. 

. . . . . . . . . . ♥ . ♥ . ♥ . ♥ .♥ . ♥ . ♥ . ♥. .♥. ♥ .♥ . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . ||..||..||..||..||..||..||..||..||..||..||..|| . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . ~~~~~~~~~♥ H A P P Y ♥~~~~~~~~ . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . ~~~~~~~♥ B I R T H D A Y ♥~~~~~~ . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . ~~~~~~♥ I M N 2 P A I N E ♥~~~~~~ . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .(_________________________________) . . . . . . . .

my local candidate in the first disrict senate seat of virginia has raised his right wing opponent -----------

$16000 to 21000.

that is amazing. hard work.

let's see them spin this.

This is heartening news.

Yes. We were discussing it earlier today and it's good to hear Leahy will stick to his guns. Without a real AG Bush is at a disadvantage in pursuing his unconstitutional assumptions of power and invasions of privacy anyway. The longer he waits to get one the better.

sitka, that was back in April he said he approved of what they were doing in congress.

Maybe the reason he's so quiet now is he can''t think of anything good to say about them? 

Shopper’s Guide to Toxic-Free Kids

Plastic products, toys, and food packaging are everywhere, and often they can be quite useful.
Unfortunately, many plastic products contain harmful chemicals. We are only beginning to understand
the health threats, especially to developing babies and children. While everyone should be mindful
about their exposure to these chemicals, it is especially critical that parents, grandparents, and others
taking care of young children work to avoid children’s exposure to toxic chemicals....

http://www.environmentcalifornia.org/htm...

5.Sitka

==========
me golden idol is tarnished

me golden idol is tarnished

Hey everybody! FRED is back! (The mean one -- not the treacly one Sheri created for a day or two)

But for everyone else's sake I'm going to start ignoring him again. I hope all the other people he fights with will too.

Just had to stop by to give a bit shout out to Paine -

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MY FRIEND! Hope to see you at a Dean gathering in the future.

Just talked to Thankful - she's been in the kitchen...hmmmmm. You lucky birthday boy. Better bites than bits, I say!

Enjoy your day!

Hi Sitka - waving atcha from the JW Desert Ridge. Seemed to cool down a bit tonight. Going for a float trip down the Salt River tomorrow afternoon. Gobs of sunscreen coming with me, too.

Having dinner afterward at a Mexican place in Cave Creek - El Encanta? Something like that. Hope it's good!

Welcome to PHX, Denise! You got lucky as it's only in the 90's now. The float trip sounds fun and it will hopefully still be cloudy -- I guess getting rained on would be no big deal since you're supposed to get wet on a float trip. Don't forget your jacket (just in case) and lip balm! There's no such thing as bad Mexican food. I'm drooling like Pavlov's dog because I decided to skip dinner tonight and it sounds yummalicious.

16. Sitka

But for everyone else's sake I'm going to start ignoring him again.

==========
Reminds me of the time my mother said "I'm calling you to tell you I won't be calling you."

HAPPY BIRTHDAY PAINE!!!!!!!

Thanks for the jacket reminder, Sitka :) And the welcome!

Just had dinner at Roy's - I can hear your tummy here down the road....

Growl

Happy Birthday, Paine Darlin'

The Lt. Col (?) who's suggesting that bush/cheney be court martialed might be able to do it.   The more I read about Iran, the more I want somebody, anybody, to remove these men from office.

"Yes. We're going to hit Iran, big time. Whatever political discussions that are going on is window dressing and perhaps even a red herring. I see what's going on below deck here in the hangars and weapons bays. And I have a sick feeling about how it's all going to turn out."
– a Landing Signal Officer in an aircraft carrier attack group, in the Gulf of Hormuz, in a telephone call to a friend quoted in an article posted then removed from the internet September 13, 2007

There's every indication that the Bush administration intends to attack Iran before leaving office. The military preparations are in full swing. According to former CIA official Philip Giraldi, writing in the American Conservative in July 2005, "The Pentagon, acting under instructions from Vice President Dick Cheney's office, has tasked the United States Strategic Command (STRATCOM) with drawing up a contingency plan to be employed in response to another 9/11-type terrorist attack on the United States. The plan includes a large-scale air assault on Iran employing both conventional and tactical nuclear weapons... As in the case of Iraq, the response is not conditional on Iran actually being involved in the act of terrorism directed against the United States. Several senior Air Force officers involved in the planning are reportedly appalled at the implications of what they are doing-that Iran is being set up for an unprovoked nuclear attack-but no one is prepared to damage his career by posing any objections."

article continues...

So maybe  they need another 9/11 to get the people behind them, saying, of course,  that we've been hit by the Iranians.

 Remove them now!   

Look at all the military exercises going on.  We are Planet War.

RI, Australia to hold joint military exercise in Makassar - Jakarta Post »Chinese warships join military exercise with British aircraft carrier - China Daily »Maiden military exercise in Russia from today - Hindu »China's war (mind) games - La Stampa »Chinese warships arrive in Spain to conduct joint military exercise - People's Daily Online »House urges government to cancel defense pact - Jakarta Post »Military exercise ends with barbecue at beach - Comox Valley Record »INDO-RUSSIAN JOINT AIRBORNE MILITARY EXERCISE AT PSKOV INDRA-07 - Press Information Bureau (press release) »Thailand, India conduct joint military exercise - Mathaba.Net »N. Korea criticizes joint military exercise - 한겨레

link

http://www.total411.info/2007/09/time-to-court-martial-cheney-bush.html 

I think  we need to stay with this.  It's the only hope we have right now to remove these people.

An Open Letter to the New Generation of Military Officers Serving and Protecting Our Nation


By Dr. Robert M. Bowman, Lt. Col., USAF, ret., National Commander, The Patriots
Dear Comrades in Arms,


You are facing challenges in 2007 that we of previous generations never dreamed of. I’m just an old fighter pilot (101 combat missions in Vietnam, F-4 Phantom, Phu Cat, 1969-1970) who’s now a disabled veteran with terminal cancer from Agent Orange. Our mailing list (over 22,000) includes veterans from all branches of the service, all political parties, and all parts of the political spectrum. We are Republicans and Democrats, Greens and Libertarians, Constitutionists and Reformers, and a good many Independents. What unites us is our desire for a government that (1) follows the Constitution, (2) honors the truth, and (3) serves the people.


We see our government going down the wrong path, all too often ignoring military advice, and heading us toward great danger. And we look to you who still serve as the best hope for protecting our nation from disaster.


We see the current Iraq War as having been unnecessary, entered into under false pretenses, and horribly mismanaged by the civilian authorities. Thousands of our brave troops have been needlessly sacrificed in a futile attempt at occupation of a hostile land. Many more thousands have suffered wounds which will change their lives forever. Tens of thousands have severe psychological problems because of what they have seen and what they have done. Potentially hundreds of thousands could be poisoned by depleted uranium, with symptoms appearing years later, just as happened to us exposed to Agent Orange. The military services are depleted and demoralized. The VA system is under-funded and overwhelmed. The National Guard and Reserves have been subjected to tour after tour, disrupting lives for even the lucky ones who return intact. Jobs have been lost, marriages have been destroyed, homes have been foreclosed, and children have been estranged. And for what? We have lost allies, made new enemies, and created thousands of new terrorists, further endangering the American people.


But you know all this. I’m sure you also see the enormous danger in a possible attack on Iran, possibly with nuclear weapons. Such an event, seriously contemplated by the Cheney faction of the Bush administration, would make enemies of Russia and China and turn us into the number one rogue nation on earth. The effect on our long-term national security would be devastating.


Some of us had hoped that the new Democratic Congress would end the occupation of Iraq and take firm steps to prevent an attack on Iran, perhaps by impeaching Bush and Cheney. These hopes have been dashed. The lily-livered Democrats have caved in, turning their backs on those few (like Congressman Jack Murtha) who understand the situation. Many of us have personally walked the halls of Congress, to no avail.


This is where you come in.


We know that many of you share our concern and our determination to protect our republic from an arrogant, out-of-control, imperial presidency and a compliant, namby-pamby Congress (both of which are unduly influenced by the oil companies and other big-money interests). We know that you (like us) wouldn’t have pursued a military career unless you were idealistic and devoted to our nation and its people. (None of us do it for the pay and working conditions!) But we also recognize that you may not see how you can influence these events. We in the military have always had a historic subservience to civilian authority.


Perhaps I can help with whatever wisdom I’ve gathered from age (I retired in 1978, so I am ancient indeed).


Our oath of office is to “protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” Might I suggest that this includes a rogue president and vice-president? Certainly we are bound to carry out the legal orders of our superiors. But the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) which binds all of us enshrines the Nuremberg Principles which this country established after World War II (which you are too young to remember). One of those Nuremberg Principles says that we in the military have not only the right, but also the DUTY to refuse an illegal order. It was on this basis that we executed Nazi officers who were “only carrying out their orders.”


The Constitution which we are sworn to uphold says that treaties entered into by the United States are the “highest law of the land,” equivalent to the Constitution itself. Accordingly, we in the military are sworn to uphold treaty law, including the United Nations charter and the Geneva Convention.


Based on the above, I contend that should some civilian order you to initiate a nuclear attack on Iran (for example), you are duty-bound to refuse that order. I might also suggest that you should consider whether the circumstances demand that you arrest whoever gave the order as a war criminal.


I know for a fact that in recent history (once under Nixon and once under Reagan), the military nuclear chain of command in the White House discussed these things and were prepared to refuse an order to “nuke Russia.” In effect they took the (non-existent) “button” out of the hands of the President.. We were thus never quite as close to World War III as many feared, no matter how irrational any president might have become. They determined that the proper response to any such order was, “Why, sir?” Unless there was (in their words) a “damn good answer,” nothing was going to happen.


I suggest that if you in this generation have not had such a discussion, perhaps it is time you do. In hindsight, it’s too bad such a discussion did not take place prior to the preemptive “shock and awe” attack on Baghdad. Many of us at the time spoke out vehemently that such an attack would be an impeachable offense, a war crime against the people of Iraq, and treason against the United States of America. But our voices were drowned out and never reached the ears of the generals in 2003. I now regret that I never sent a letter such as this at that time, but depended on the corporate media to carry my message. I must not make that mistake again.


Also in hindsight, President Bush could be court-martialed for abuse of power as Commander-in-Chief. Vice President Cheney could probably be court-martialed for his performance as Acting Commander-in-Chief in the White House bunker the morning of September 11, 2001.


We in the U.S. military would never consider a military coup, removing an elected president and installing one of our own. But following our oath of office, obeying the Nuremberg Principles, and preventing a rogue president from committing a war crime is not a military coup. If it requires the detention of executive branch officials, we will not impose a military dictatorship. We will let the Constitutional succession take place. This is what we are sworn to. This is protecting the Constitution, our highest obligation. In 2007, this is what is meant by “Duty, Honor, Country.”


Thank you all for your service to this nation. May God bless America, and sustain us in this difficult time. And thanks for listening to the musings of an old junior officer.


Respectfully,




Robert M. Bowman, PhD, Lt. Col., USAF, ret.

1494 Patriot Dr, Melbourne, FL 32940

http://revereradio.net/e107/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?3648

That was too long, wasn't it?  In my zeal to have these men removed, "the devil made me do it." 

 Nite nite all.  :-)

Musharraf to 'give up army post'

Pervez Musharraf

There has been pressure on Gen Musharraf to resign his army post

The chief lawyer for Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf says that if he is re-elected, he will give up his post of army chief soon afterwards.

In a statement to the Supreme Court, the lawyer said that if Gen Musharraf won the election, he would be sworn in for a new term as a civilian.

He is seeking re-election by parliament before its term expires in mid-October.

On Monday, the Supreme Court began debating his right to remain army chief if he stood for president again.

"If elected for a second term as president, General Pervez Musharraf shall relinquish charge of office of chief of army staff soon after election and before taking oath of office as president," his chief lawyer, Sharifuddin Pirzada, told the court.

The country's largest political party, Benazir Bhutto's Pakistan People's Party, has been holding negotiations about a possible power-sharing deal in which they have demanded that Gen Musharraf step down from his military role.

Petitions

There had been growing opposition to the fact that Gen Musharraf is constitutionally allowed to be both president and head of the army at the same time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7000120.stm

Good morning, everybody

If you liked that sea, you might also enjoy looking up some of his associates and see if they've also landed in lowly positions as Congressional staff.  While the web site calls him an advisor, he's got a position as an assistant in her office and, as has been frequently pointed out, those people, being paid for by the people, are supposed to be working for us, not pushing some ideological agenda.  

And then, of course, there's the fact that one of the, the one that got me started on this little side-trip, Alexis Y. Debat, is a demonstrated fraud--demonstrated in the sense that the educational degrees he claimed in order to get his job as a consultant on terrorism for ABC are non-existent.

Hulsman, with whom Debat wrote one published article, claims a degree from a University in Scotland, even though he seems to be Dutch and has now landed at a foreign policy think tank in Berlin.  But, if there's one fraud in the bunch, there may be more.  Wonder how many of these terrorism experts can speak any of the relevant languages.

The arguments about al Qaeda have a lot of the "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" aspect about them.

John C. Hulsman
Wiliam L.T. Schirano
Ariel Cohen
Doug Bandow
James Phillips
Christopher C. Harmon
Stephen Johnson,
James J. Carafano

Iowa now has six candidates with paid staff canvasing the state, so that means likely caucus goers face a minimum of 18 calls.

throw a dart and pick a candidate and become someones #1 just so you end the barrage?

it happened last time and the closer you get to January the less reliable the lists

I went to the local meeting and all six of our county's troop was there, and I am still impressed with how politics finds all of these young idealists. What a great bunch. We went out for a beer afterwards and it was good to see they all get along.

Since Obama,Edwards, and Clinton all have very similar heath care proposals they should take a cue from their staffs and put out a unified Democratic plan.

Thursday's Health Care Debate in Davenport will be interesting.

My Congressman's staffer for rural constituent service just got hired away by the Governor. I'm thankful he didn't end up in Washington because the guy is real bright and highly practicle at the same time and I always appreciate that combo and I'll still be able to work with him in his new position

another Republican leader of the State Senate cited "family reasons" and is leaving politics

no fun being in the minority and for once it's them

yyyyyyyeeeaaaahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .

Happy Birthday paine.

sorry for the philibuster last night but I jsut thought sharing Obama's actual words on Wall Street made as much sense as a re-hash of the same argument for the eleventh time

That is why God created scrolling I suppose, sorry.

bbl

Will somebody please tell Obama to shut up?

+++

Sitka -

Real democratic of you to tell someone to shut up.

Are you intending to tell the rest of the candidates running to shut up too ?

And all their supporters ?

"strengthened my resolve to serve my country"  ~Senator Hillary Clinton

The Party of hate and bigotry = ?  ...the Republican.

Speaking of shut up -- 

-- here's a response I posted on a CNN blog when the first poster, responding to an interview article about Michelle Obama, there told Michelle Obama to shut up:

"Michelle, shut up, it's not Obama's turn either… we need a Senior Leader in the "White House" not a Jr. Senator.

Posted By Atlanta, Georgia : September 14, 2007 12:25 pm"

+++

Excuse me ? Who are you in Atlanta, GA ? You didn't even have the courage to post your first name.

I'm a guy and I would never tell anyone to "shut up", especially a woman.

Have some manners please.

BTW, Happy B'day to you Imn2Paine !

Oh geez,

thank you Phil, seashell, Annilow, Denise, and Puddleriver.

Mmm, I think I'm gonna eat some cake today. 

Thanks *r, buddy.

Sen Clinton's makin' the rounds and I am not sure who is spit on more - the Clintons or OJ Simpson?

Give me the health care policy our congresscritters have for themselves.

OJ has been convicted again.

The media sucks for how much time they spend on OJ.

The media sucks.

http://debates.news.yahoo.com/

Did you folks do the online debate mashup yet? it's kinda fun.

+++

Annilow -

Thanks for the link.

~*~*~*HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Paine!~*~*~

a quote for the day...

Thanks, Jo.

“There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness.” Friedrich Nietzsche quotes 

 But such is the irresistable nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants is the liberty of appearing.
Thomas Paine

*rdorgan

I think the request to Obama wasn't really directed at him, but rather at the posting of his entire speech.  The fellow does like to talk, though, and I have to agree that the structure of his speeches with their long recitation of distress and disappointment becomes tedious.  I don't think that the assumption that "the people like to hear someone say what they've been thinking" has much merit.  It does work with an audience whose antagonism needs to be pumped up, but that's not what Democrats are about.  

It's my sense that there's a certain amount of "lamentation and despair" that goes on in both the black and jewish community, but I fear that coming from Obama it won't be perceived as real.

To a certain extent, invocations of the promised land are welcome by oppressors because it means that their here and now isn't being threatened.  The advantage of promising a reward in heaven is that nothing has to be delivered here on earth.  If people's suffering is a ticket to heaven, then it doesn't have to be relieved, does it?

I'm not sure to what extent Obama's organizing stint differed from what the operatives he's hiring now are experiencing.  I've seen no mention of how long it even lasted. 

"Irrationally" held truths are the only ones there are, perhaps?

even more harmful might be a set of "rational" beliefs where the original premise was wrong?

Happy Birthday Paine........as my gift to you, Im flying Fred to your house tonite to spend 8 hours discussing Biden/Gelb............enjoy!

Sitka was talking about me rdorgan, not Obama.

I was using Obama's speech to Wall Street yesterday to philibuster the direction discussion was headed at the time.

Ignore button HQ's?

*rdorgan

I think the request to Obama wasn't really directed at him, but rather at the posting of his entire speech.

...

+++

I know that, I read through last night's blogs' comments just like I read through all the previous entries, since most of the time I'm not here.

Phil was posting the speech, the entire speech.

But the effect of what Sitka did, was to say shut up, that he didn't want to see anymore of that economic speech Obama gave get posted. 

BTW, unlike you, I don't find Obama's speeches to be tedious, just like I don't find Dodd's to be tedious, nor anybody else's speeches who's running for prez this election cycle.

52.

Phil -

Yep, got it and knew that when I posted comment 37 upthread.  Please refer to comment 53.

Edwards and Clinton have nearly identical health care proposals. It makes no sense for Edwards to attack Hillary's plan. He is shooting himself in the foot. He should be praising her for coming on board with a truly universal plan.  

Edwards and Clinton have nearly identical health care proposals. It makes no sense for Edwards to attack Hillary's plan. He is shooting himself in the foot. He should be praising her for coming on board with a truly universal plan.  

55.

IMO, Edwards demeanor changed (going more negative) since this past April.

What happened last April to the Edwards campaign ?

They hired Joe Trippi onto their campaign.

dang bloggie

no rdorgan, I was violating norms here, but I did think it an important speech, worthy of criticism

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I draw your attention to

"Like all of you, I believe in free trade." Obama

and wonder whether he is in on the "deal" to give Bush Fast Track Authority

Off to work.

Thanks Mike, I see both you and Fred at the airport.  Looking forward to it! 

dang bloggie

no rdorgan, I was violating norms here

+++

Just what are those norms ?

Edwards and Obama had huge contigents at the steak fry, so Hillary is hiring more staff here to make sure she doesn't come in third. I need to get them working voter registration instead of just re-plowing old ground with the likely attendees. as I said to my fellow Democrats at last nights meeting, hang loose because it is likely five out of six of you are backing someone other than the eventual nominee

the polite behavior is an excerpt and a link

harvest continues

see y'all for lunch?

the polite behavior is an excerpt and a link

+++

But why were you violating norms last night ?  You used Obama's speech to counter what ?

Happy Birthday to you Paine, and many more.

And the person who told Michelle Obama to shut up? You have to realize that the only bushies left are the really scary ones. What do you expect?

Student Tasered at Kerry speech Mike Aivaz and John Byrne
Published: Monday September 17, 2007


Print This  Email This 

Police Tasered and arrested a University of Florida student Monday when he engaged in "combative diatribe" following a question of Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) at a student forum about why he didn't contest the 2004 presidential election or impeach President George W. Bush.

According to the Gainseville Sun, University of Florida College of Journalism and Communications student Andrew Meyer "approached an open microphone at the University Auditorium and demanded Kerry answer his questions. The student claimed that University Police Department officers had already threatened to arrest him, and then proceeded to question Kerry about why he didn't contest the 2004 presidential election and why there had been no moves to impeach President Bush."

"A minute or so into what became a combative diatribe, Meyer's microphone was turned off and officers began trying to physically remove him from the auditorium," the Sun said. "Meyer flailed his arms, yelling as police tried to restrain him."

Six officers then pushed him to the ground. He yelled, "What have I done? What I have I done? Get away from me. Get off of me! What did I do? ... Help me! Help."

Officers then threatened to use a Taser on Meyer if he did not comply; he resisted being handcuffered and was then "Tased, "which prompted him to scream and writhe in pain on the floor of the auditorium," according to the Sun.

The following video is from MSNBC's TUCKER, broadcast on September 17, 2007

The audience member was preliminarily identified by UF officials as Andrew Meyer, a UF student in the College of Journalism and Communications.

Toward the conclusion of Kerry's UF forum, Meyer approached an open microphone at the University Auditorium and demanded Kerry answer his questions. The student claimed that University Police Department officers had already threatened to arrest him, and then proceeded to question Kerry about why he didn't contest the 2004 presidential election and why there had been no moves to impeach President Bush.

But Galluzzo believes that both candidates were influenced by their encounters with Alinsky and his methods. "By either one of them being in office," he said, "we're going to have a government that's more responsive to the ordinary people."

This is the conclusion of an article on Clinton's and Obama's social service roots.  It tells me that Obama spent three years training people to be more assertive in expressing their self interest.  As someone who spent seventeen years proding government to do what it was being paid to do--i.e. provide equal service to all citizens--I can tell you that the failure to provide it from the get-go was often explained as a consequence of the fact that they weren't organized to demand what was rightfully theirs; that they didn't get out to vote in sufficient numbers; that  they didn't appreciate good service anyway; or that they required too many services to begin with. 

In other words, it was simply "blame the victim" territory.  And the solution in the '80s, when everything had been allowed to deteriorate to grossly uninhabitable conditions, "urban redevelopment" came along to bulldoze the neighborhoods and make the real estate available to (subsidized) developers of banks and shopping centers and who knew where the former residents ended up?  Our homeless population isn't just the result of mental institutions being emptied out.

But, to get back to the quote.  I don't want a government that's "more responsive to ordinary people."  I want a government that recognizes it has responsibilities and that those responsibilities are to be carried out, regardless of the social status of the citizens who pay for it.  Being "more responsive" is not worth much when the prior response was less than zero. 

You think that's not possible?  Well, it certainly is less than zero when dumps are located next to rural residents whose wells are going to be contaminated by the effluent.  It's less than zero, when an industrial plant is permitted (actually given permission) to spew mercury into the atmosphere from which it rains down on the adjacent neighborhood.  The result, btw, is not ordinary people.  The result of these social policies is special ed kids who have a hard time learning and have no chance whatever of being able to demand a response from government.

So, no, I don't want a government that's more responsive.  I want one that does what it's told--protect the health, safety and welfare of the nation. 

65. linda b..............I heard that on the news, ..."student in florida was tasered after speaking too loud in Florida event with Kerry"......I came running out to look at and hear what exactlly was being said, and hubby said "don't worry, it wasn't Charlie".

Paine, I fear I may be late, but hope you still get your Birthday wishes.

Happy happy Birthday to you. May you have a great one.

A cake for paine

Happy Birthday Imn2Paine!

enjoy~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXN18tcLq...

"No act of kindness, no matter how small, is ever wasted."---Aesop (620 BC - 560 BC)

Linda in NM, there are videos out there but I can't seem to load them. The guy was actually supporting Kerry and the cops went too far.

People are getting really pissed now. You will see more of it. I am mad and Kerry and Gore for not going further in getting the votes in Ohio and Florida counted.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/09/17/sierra.leone.elections.ap/index.html?section=cnn_latest

• Ernest Bai Koroma sworn in after winning run-off against ruling-party candidate
• Koroma promises economic development, zero tolerance for corruption
• Koroma received 55 percent of the 1.7 million votes counted
  
• About 2.6 million of Sierra Leone's 5 million people registered to vote

FREETOWN, Sierra Leone (AP) -- Opposition leader Ernest Bai Koroma was sworn in as Sierra Leone's president Monday and vowed to adopt zero tolerance on corruption, after officials declared him the winner of a tense run-off election.

Ernest Bai Koroma speaks to the press after casting his vote in Freetown, Sierra Leone, on September 8.

Although ruling party officials had earlier decried the outcome on local radio, Berewa said he called Koroma with congratulations soon after the release of the results.

Both parties had complained of localized fraud and misconduct at some polling stations, but international observers said the poll went off generally smoothly and without major problems that would have invalidated the outcome.

The election, the first presidential vote since U.N. peacekeepers withdrew two years ago, was seen as a test of whether the West African country has emerged from the chaos wrought by a decade-long war.

...

The governing party candidate was considered the front-runner before the first round of voting on August 11. But Koroma won 44 percent of the vote in the first round, compared with 38 percent for Berewa. The margin was not large enough for him to win outright, forcing a runoff.

...

71.

Agree.

Well, thank God for this clarification ... this had not sounded at all like what I was hearing elsewhere about France's position on Iran and I'm glad that Kouchner has been brought up short.

Sheesh, I was really afraid that prick's followers were going to run with it as their carte blanche.

==================
September 18, 2007
After Talk of War, Cooler Words in France on Iran
By KATRIN BENNHOLD and ELAINE SCIOLINO

MOSCOW, Sept. 17 — France’s foreign minister, Bernard Kouchner, sought Monday to tone down remarks he made in a radio and television interview the day before that the world had to prepare for possible war against Iran.

Attacked verbally by Iran and quietly criticized within his own government, Mr. Kouchner shifted the focus away from the threat of war and back to a call for hard negotiations as the way to force Iran to abandon key nuclear activities.

“The worst situation would be war,” Mr. Kouchner told journalists en route to Moscow. “And to avoid the worst, the French position is very clear: negotiate, negotiate, negotiate, and work with our European friends on credible sanctions.”
[...]
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/18/world/...

OMG.

An assistant U.S. Attorney in Gulf Breeze, Florida , was caught in a sting in Detroit. He was trying to meet up with the mother of a 5 year old girl so he could have relations with the girl.

He said he has done this many times before.

He is also the president of a youth sports league in Florida.

Jeezus.

Federal Prosecutor Arrested In Child Sex Sting

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/14132485/detail.html

Howdy linda b.

I haven't had time to read yet the account of the young man, but I heard they were reporting the same thoughts, that the man was only speaking loud, not anything else and the police are being investigated for their actions.

Now as far as the elections in 2000 and 2004, I don't think there's much similarities of the 2 and the candidates responses.

Kerry swore to count the vote after being around for the 2000 election and the known problems with voting machines, but then conceded the very next morning and didn't get involved on demanding rcounts until the people started the effort on their own and then getting Green candidate to support the effort.

Al Gore, I understand people being bitter for him not getting in office, but hardly can it be said he didn't try and try very hard. He even addressed it on his Assault on Reason book tour where he said "he did everything short of a Revolution". He abided by "our law". He fought for a month, he had his people down there, contesting and making sure ALL the votes get counted. It was when Florida demanded the recount, again, and the Bush folks brought it to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court halted the recount, 1 month later.

And especially considering not one fellow Senator joined the contest with Congress on the floor, I'd say Mr. Gore, especially on at the time un precedented results of voting, did a good job and tried very hard to have every vote counted.

Well, I'm glad the prez election went smooth in Sierra Leone and I'm glad of the outcome (opposition party candidate Koroma wins).  Now I can feel more assured of my wife and I's visit there in late Oct without any insecurity, strife lingering.

Now I'm off to further along a prez candidate running here in the States.

bye

76. well then rdorgan, I hope you'll agree with 74 too.

make that 76.

71.  Being upset at the candidates for not getting the votes counted is useless because it's not the candidate's responsibility and the candidates have no standing to demand something that isn't theirs.  The votes belong to the voters and then, at best in the presidential election, to the candidates selected to participate in the electoral college.

There should be a provision in the law for a timely challenge by the voters in an election as a class.  That the mechanics of the elections has not been properly addressed is a problem you can lay at the feet of all the legislators who have jurisdiction over such matters.  The effort to over-ride the fact that the electoral process is a state matter by mandating uniform equipment that would guarantee accuracy was ill-conceived--well intentioned, but ill-conceived because the potential for fraud and malfunction was overlooked. 

Monica, I find it offensive that Kerry had over 26 million in his account after the election. He had the money and standing to go after a recount.

He said he would before if there was a problem. that is why people see him as a wuss.

Linda, I do agree with your 76. Al Gore did everything that he could. After the Supreme Court literally pre-empted other actions, there was little he could do and there were even some turncoat Dems at the time who indicated that Gore should give up even before then, as well as Rethug protesters actually outside his DC house yelling and screaming that Gore *should leave 'Dick Cheney's house'* immediately, which was completely unprecedented in its vituperation.

And Happy Birthday to Paine, puddle (if I understood Thankful correctly) and all other birthday people today!

********
Thankful: does this mean that you're now on-line for good?

I read that report of the Prosecuter from Florida flying up to Detroit to have sex with a 5 year old, being arranged and paid to the childs (fake) mother.

It was sickening. Especially him claiming how he did it so many times before and his "methods". Disgusting.

=Agree that Kerry is a wuss-on general principles.

=Tasered guy -- NO ONE should be tasered -- but I watched the video and he was resisting arrest.

=Paine -- especially for YOU!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbKQq0dAq...


=The Barrynet is more controversial this morning than the borg. He has a bunch of self described conservative Republican fans who are expressing themselves.

=Gotta go to work -- have a great day all.

Hmm, this wil certainly be a test of BW's so-called immunity from prosecution.

It will also be a test of whether Iraqi courts actually work for other than kangaroo trials.

==================
Blackwater can be tried in Iraqi court: judge
33 minutes ago

BAGHDAD (AFP) — US security firm Blackwater could be tried in an Iraqi court over a shootout in a Baghdad neighbourhood which killed eight people, a top judge told AFP on Tuesday.

"This company is subject to Iraqi law and the crime committed was on Iraqi territory and the Iraqi judiciary is responsible for tackling the case," said Abdul Sattar Ghafour Bairaqdar from Iraq's Supreme Judiciary Council, the country's highest court.

On Monday, Iraq's interior ministry ordered the cancellation of Blackwater's operating licence after the company's guards who were escorting US officials were involved in a shootout which killed eight people and wounded 13.
[...]
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5injj...

In case anyone missed, Al Gore's surprise stop on Jay Leno last night,

http://youtube.com/watch?v=j3lki8UTO90

Have a good one, Annilow!

*************
Russia weighing in on Iran ... will Congres PUL-EEZE impeach prick?

What on earth does it take?

=============
Russia warns against military action in Iran
Mark Tran and agencies
Tuesday September 18, 2007
Guardian Unlimited

Russia today joined the chorus of concern at the possibility of war in Iran while conflicts continued in Iraq and Afghanistan.

At a news briefing in Moscow, the Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, said: "We are worried by reports that there is serious consideration being given to military action in Iran. That is a threat to a region where there are already grave problems in Iraq and Afghanistan."

His comments, after a meeting with his French counterpart, Bernard Kouchner, followed a stark warning yesterday from the UN's chief nuclear weapons inspector aimed at the US.

"I would not talk about any use of force," Mohamed ElBaradei told reporters at the International Atomic Energy Agency headquarters in Vienna. "There are rules on how to use force, and I would hope that everybody would have gotten the lesson after the Iraq situation, where 700,000 innocent civilians have lost their lives on the suspicion that a country has nuclear weapons."
[...]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,33076...

 Annilow

He wasn't resisting arrest  (no crime had been committed) ; he was resisting being taken from the mike.

Florida police are a bunch of thugs if that was representative. Lucky for the student they were armed with a taser instead of a gun.

Kerry deserves to be yelled at for the way he handled the Ohio voting questions. He was a wuss.

OH! this clip is from NBC and it's MUCH better and AL LOOKS GREAT!

http://www.nbc.com/The_Tonight_Show_with...

Loved Gore on Leno, Linda! Thanks for the clip!

I was referring to the earlier clip ... I'll check out the second now.

82.  No, linda, he didn't have standing in that he hadn't been deprived of anything.  The votes and the tally do not belong to the candidate.  A candidate, in some states, can ask for a recount, but a recount is just that--a repetition of the same process, using the same criteria that were used the first time (that's what happened in Florida; the votes that were thrown out initially, were thrown out again).  What's required is an audit of the tally, which is, of course, impossible when we're dealing with electrons that leave no permanent record.  NH has mandated paper ballots and a manual audit, if there's a question.  In fact, there are regular manual recounts and the results are sometimes different enough to change the outcome.  Some NH counties use opti-scan equipment from Diebold and there's lots of awareness that the program could be jiggled, but no hard evidence yet. 

somebody's done a study to show that most precincts are actually small enough that the votes should be able to be tallied by hand in a couple of hours.  It just takes people who need to be trained and organized for an event that, at most, happens a couple of times a year.  It's a lot of work and, unless election officials are forced to do it, they prefer machines. 

OH, Florida/Miami Police. OY! Can I tell you stories.

But I lived in Miami during the Riots.

I guess I never seemed to be shyed away, though. One time, after being mugged and beaten up too many times in school, I was walking home and got jumped again by 2 guys who reached in my shirt and stole my gold medalion that was passed down to me from my Grandma. Then they took off. I was so upset running and crying, a cop pulled me over to ask what happened and what he could do. I just laid in to him like you wouldn't believe. I asked what he was going to do about it. I said the last time I got jumped by a group of guys, I got a phone call 1 month later asking for a redescription of them. I yelled at him at the top of my lungs and then walked off.

I will be sending this article to my Senators and Congressperson to remind them that fool me twice is NOT acceptable.

I encourage all here to do the same.

==================
Greenspan's shock revelation
The central banker was right: the attack on Iraq was about oil. But we don't need him to tell us an attack on Iran will be for the same reason.
Andrew Murray
September 18, 2007 9:30 AM

Alan Greenspan - perhaps the single most pivotal figure in the US establishment over the last generation - has acknowledged that the Iraq war was about oil supplies.

The former boss of the US Federal Reserve is thus far in step with world opinion. However, he breaks with almost everyone else (notable exceptions: Melanie Phillips and the editor of the Observer) in believing that the war was nevertheless a good thing.

Indeed, his complaint, outlined in his just-published memoirs, is more that the prevailing political climate makes it impossible to sing it out loud and proud - we went to war to get the oil.

Nevertheless, Greenspan has done us a service. Not because he tells us anything that isn't obvious - witness the anger in Washington over its puppet Iraqi government's failure to pass the required law opening up its oil industry to untrammelled foreign exploitation. This is just one of the many benchmarks the Baghdad government is failing to meet, but it seems to be the one that grieves Bush and Cheney the most.

[...]
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/andr...

No wonder the US RW hates Putin.

Thanks to their own greed and short-sightedness, Russia has once again become a player on the world stage.

=================
Putin's legacy is a Russia that doesn't have to curry favour with the west
Regardless of the next leader, a change has been effected that means the country is independent and respected again
Jonathan Steele
Tuesday September 18, 2007
The Guardian

Among the neon and the glitz of Moscow's car-choked streets, a new hoarding stands out for its stark simplicity. Apart from the colours of the Russian flag, there is no image and its wording is short: "Putin's plan, Russia's victory".

For Russians over the age of 30, the echo is unmistakable. They are bound to remember a favoured Soviet slogan from Communist days: "The party's plans are the people's plans". But the new hoarding looks forward as well as back. With parliamentary elections due next December, it is a subliminal advertisement for the ruling party, United Russia, which everyone expects to gain the victory that Putin wants for it, in large part because it is associated with him.

Eight years after coming to power, Putin remains extraordinarily popular. The constitution dictates that he cannot have a third consecutive term, and last week, in a lengthy encounter with foreign analysts and long-time reporters of Russia, he insisted he would indeed leave office next spring. There would be no messing about with the constitution, he told us. He had not yet decided what to do next, but he expected to retain influence. It seems he intends to take a top job, perhaps in charge of Gazprom or one of Russia's other state-owned mega-corporations.

What, then, is Putin's legacy? Stability and growth, for starters.
[...]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/...

Juan Cole's Iraqi tour d'horizon ...

=============
Tuesday, September 18, 2007
Sadrists Demand US Withdrawal
UIA asks Sadrists to Rejoin
Will Blackwater be Expelled?

[...]
http://www.juancole.com/2007/09/sadrists...

Great comment thread from DU!

===========
Gore.

[...]
http://www.democraticunderground.com/dis...

100. Oh YES! Judy that is great. Like Mr. Hyatt said, "that's a nice tribute to you".

can you post the Leno link? I have a problem commenting on DU. I don't know if it's their software or what, but that site doesn't seem to gel with me.

91.  An arrest Phil is a stop.  The police were trying to effect a stop--to stop the student from speaking.  It was an unlawful arrest, just as Charlie's various arrests were unlawful.  The problem is that legality has to be demonstrated in a court of law and, in a court of law, the agents of government ALWAYS have the benefit of the doubt because of the presumption that they are following orders and not acting in their own self-interest.  In the Alachua case where Charlie was arrested, it was/is able to be demonstrated that the agents of government were/are motivated by self-interest, protecting their own jobs and retirement benefits.  In addition, the governing authority (the Alachua city council) have placed themselves at risk of a civil judgement (their insurance carrier has no doubt made clear they won't be covered because their agent's behavior was self-serving). 

In this case, it's the University of Florida which has jurisdiction over the police, a problematic arrangement because the University is an entity which is not responsive to any citizen review--i.e. nobody's elected.  I have long been opposed to education institutions being given the authority to hire police whose certification is typically provided by county or state police entities which don't have any operational input.  In other words, you've got a sheriff's department providing certification of police whose day-to-day behavior they don't control.

Here in NH there's a move to combine the town police with the university policy, mainly because the town administrator and chief are keen to be supervising more people.  My position is that there are already too many law enforcement officers providing "services" we don't need, including arresting students for being, in effect, "open containers of alcohol."  Underage students are an additional category of people whose "rights" are under challenge.

I mean somebody's got to be able to be controlled by the authorities without challenge!!! Right???? What's this country come to if everybody's got rights? 

New thread ... Sheri is on the job!

101. Linda: I post a lot of links from DU, but I am not registered there. This is the only blog where I actually post right now.

I posted a bit at the DNC blog when Howard was first elected and posted occasionally at HEP, but this is where my heart is.

NEW THREAD

It was a joke with regard to Phil's hideous obamaspamming of the blog. 

NEW THREAD
82.

linda b
Tue, 09/18/07
9:14 am

Reply to this


Monica, I find it offensive that Kerry had over 26 million in his account after the election. He had the money and standing to go after a recount.

He said he would before if there was a problem. that is why people see him as a wuss.

95.

Monica Smith
Tue, 09/18/07
9:38 am

Reply to this


82. No, linda, he didn't have standing in that he hadn't been deprived of anything. The votes and the tally do not belong to the candidate. A candidate, in some states, can ask for a recount, but a recount is just that--a repetition of the same process, using the same criteria that were used the first time (that's what happened in Florida; the votes that were thrown out initially, were thrown out again).