Thank you Jim Dean.

C-SPAN2 having Senate hearings now with Patraeus

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan_wm....

Hearings on C-SPAN3.

Rep Jim DeMint (SC), following Obama, is trying to discount what Obama and other dems have stated.

DeMint is trying to wrap it up and leave a mint under the Bush strategy pillow -- "a cause for celebration".

He is trying to say that the military stategy "yes, sir !" is superior to the political process.  I'm a vet and DeMint's thinking is hogwash.

If DeMint thinks he is buttering up to the soldiers and veterans, well IMO he forgot to "pass the Parkay".

18.

Sitka
Tue, 09/11/07
3:53 am

The issues which Democrats betray us on are complex only to the simple minded.

And some have turned a blind eye to lies for so long that they no longer see the simple truth from either of them.

===================
Such a condescending disposition and paranoid apprehensions demonstrate allusions of grandeur and self-righteous megalomania.

One who indulges in gross generalization is the textbook case of "turning a blind eye" to the complexity of basic human trust.

Republicans are always promising something that can't be done.

Democrats are always promising something that won't be done.

When I saw him first speaking on C-SPAN3 earlier today, I didn't know who he was and thought he was Sen. Russ Feingold.  Until I listened further and realized it was repub propaganda being mouthed.  Then the subtitle was posted below indidcating he's repub junior senator of South Carolina elected in 2004 (the senior senator is repub Lindsey Graham):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_DeMint

Would it be inappropriate to wish people a "Happy Osama Day!"

???

Boycott al Qaeda Day. 

Such a condescending disposition and paranoid apprehensions demonstrate allusions of grandeur and self-righteous megalomania.

Somebody got a thesaurus for his birthday. 

the complexity of basic human trust.

A case where, in the instance of supporting DCDems who betray over and over again, one word serves better -- "sucker."

8. sitka, indeed. I was watching a video made by Kaj, a former soldier who works for current tv. He was discussing how his Commander came up to them after just getting there, in Iraq. Holding two bottles, one was a bottle of JD, the other Wild Turkey. He said the JD was for Saddam and WT for Osama. He said they got word, beFORE IT WAS KNOW ELSEWHERE, that they had Saddam and they were drinking to their enemies. Cracked open JD and through back a shot, but WT would remain for the capture of Osama. That bottle remains sealed.

So Kaj went to Tora Bora and walked the caves where Bin Forgotten was hangin'. A great piece of coverage and I give him credit for walking in those shoes.

The difference of Osama and Bush? Osama had an exit plan.

HE had his mansion, a pool, everything he could want in those hills. They showed the now bombed pool. The compound a mere 5 hours walk to Pakistan.

...and where is he? Osama is Bush's favorite tool. They both want and need each other. Pull chord when ever they think folks need a scarin'.

9.

Sitka
Tue, 09/11/07
1:21 pm

Somebody got a thesaurus for his birthday.

A case where, in the instance of supporting DCDems who betray over and over again, one word serves better -- "sucker."

===============

How did you know I had a birthday? 59 a few days ago, but no Thesausus just adjusting my language for the blog.

Trust and faith in other human beings is a very complex concept both in form and function. It is so much easier to distrust, but any peace and progress in the history of the world has a component of trust somewhere in the process.

There is no mathematical or scientific test for truth, and the dicipering of trust and belief in truth is a constant struggle.

This is a challenge which you, Sitka, have systematically avoided out of convenience in dealing with issues of the day, finding refuge in sardonic humor and consistently erring on the side of not trusting at all.

jim webb talking now

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan_wm....

Gore Wins 2007 Gothenburg Sustainable Development Award

GOTENBORG, Sweden, September 11, 2007 (ENS) - Above all others, Al Gore has called humanity to save the climate, said the jury for the Gothenburg Award on Sustainable Development, choosing the former U.S. vice president to receive the award for 2007. Gore has "has called humanity to a deeper understanding of our serious situation – and what politicians, executives and all of us can and must do," the jury said.

"The heat is growing, our Planet Earth has got fever," said the jury. "Already this gives rise to extreme weather with drought, cloudburst, hurricanes and misery to hundreds of millions of people. Global warming might dismantle the world economy - if we fail to put a stop to it!"

The Gothenburg Award on Sustainable Development 2007, one million Swedish kronor (US$144,000) aims to "stimulate and encourage strategic work for national and international sustainable development."

The Award was founded by the City of Gothenburg and several interested companies. It is distributed by the city together with Andra AP-fonden, Carl Bennet AB, Elanders AB, Eldan Recycling, Folksam, Götaverken Miljo, Handelsbanken, Nordea, Peab, Schenker AB, SKF, Stena Metall AB. This is the eighth Gothenburg Award.

"We are extremely proud and happy to be able to give the 2007 Gothenburg Award on Sustainable Development to Mr. Al Gore," said Stefan Edman, author, biologist and chairman of the jury.

On January 22, 2008, Gore will go to Gothenburg to receive the award at the city's public Save the Climate Event. "This will be an unforgettable evening with prominent artists - and with a speech by the most important opinion maker today on Planet Earth," Edman said.

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/sep2007/...

Biden just started hammering Petraeus

Actually he was just calling a break or the end?

Senate armed services committee coming up next, scheduled for 2:00 PM EST

C-SPAN2 taking calls before next hearing

This is a challenge which you, Sitka, have systematically avoided out of convenience in dealing with issues of the day, finding refuge in sardonic humor and consistently erring on the side of not trusting at all.

FRED, on the other hand, is just another party-line dupe. 

Osama is Bush's favorite tool. They both want and need each other. Pull chord when ever they think folks need a scarin'.

Uncle Osama and his holiday aren't just Bush's to exploit. Republicans use them to intimidate Democrats and Democrats use them as the excuse for going along with Bush. And the corporate media has an entire division devoted to selling ads around stories about them.

Announcement: Senate Armed Services Hearings are beginning in five minutes

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan_wm....

Sitka
Tue, 09/11/07
2:00 pm
___________________________________________________________________________

If both these geeks are the brave leaders they proclaim to be........let em both meet..face to face.......alone.......and duke it out..................then just leave the rest of the world alone.............

18.

Sitka
Tue, 09/11/07
1:56 pm

FRED, on the other hand, is just another party-line dupe

===========
That is your slanderous opinion and not fact. I judge each person in our party (and outside our party, as well) individually, based on my observations.

You, on the other hand, have forfeited that responsibility with your blanket assessment of gross distrust.

Levin beginning hearings - commencement speech

If both these geeks are the brave leaders they proclaim to be........let em both meet..face to face.......alone.......and duke it out..................then just leave the rest of the world alone.............

Even better....get US troops out of the ME. 

Levin is really hammering the Sectarian-biased and irresponsibility of the Bush-installed Iraqi government

Which side to be on?

In the old thread, former brought up the idea that ultimately, protecting us from terrorism is dependent on which "side" we are on (quotes mine).

Let me generalize that a bit, and say it raises a question I remember addressing (but don't remember where) about US foreign policy in general, which is that it has had no underlying basis since Jimmy Carter.  Like him or hate him, like his policy or not, Carter said our relations in the world would be based on "human rights."  Like any human, Carter was flawed and his implementation of this foreign policy was uneven, but for the most part he tried to follow this path. 

Any Democrat running for a place in the federal government, certainly President, should be able to answer the question "On what fundamental tenets will you build your foreign policy?" 

 On what fundamental tenets would YOU build a foreign policy for the United States?

25.

Sitka
===========
Listen and learn instead of googling cheap shots

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan_wm....

rich^kolker
Tue, 09/11/07
2:14 pm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What does "tenets" mean?  The CIA guy?

Mc Cain speaking

Listen and learn

Oh, I have. That's why I no longer shill for Republicrats who have turned a once great party into a GOP fearing, corporate serving, lap dog. 

Mc Cain says, "anybody traveling to Anbar, Ramadi..."

as if they are resorts. Like you could make it through town without being kidnapped or killed.

I've read a few excerpts from the GQ interview that Colin Powell gave to them & he is being very open about his dissatisfaction with this war etc. I will make a prediction here & now that I believe if Obama gets the nomination that Powell will endorse him. Might even do it before the primaries. Just my feeling.

Yes, I know Powell is a republican, but he's what  I call "the way they used to be" . Don't agree with their philosophies, but there are some  who are definitely ok. IMO.

There are many who are "hyps." IMO-- and that I cannot stand. Just tell me the way it is. I may not agree, but I'll respect your right to your  opinion. Too many of them are concerned about what they call "surrendering". That's all they care about. The bully in the playground.  

31.

Sitka
Tue, 09/11/07
2:17 pm

Oh, I have. That's why I no longer shill for Republicrats who have turned a once great party into a GOP fearing, corporate serving, lap dog.

==================

You don't look at individuals, painstakingly, to make honest assessments. You see people as ants on the ground from the top of your mountain. You judge the entire town.

On what fundamental tenets would YOU build a foreign policy for the United States?

The most fundamental should be that the US military should never be used to preemptively attack or invade other nations and should never be stationed in any foreign country. Defending America itself should be priority one, not imposing and defending the interests of the US government and corporations abroad.

Petraeus starts by saying he alone composed the report without outside editing or preview

if Obama gets the nomination that Powell will endorse him. Might even do it before the primaries.

The Great Republican Toady's endorsement should hurt Obama among Democrats.

On what fundamental tenets would YOU build a foreign policy for the United States?

The most fundamental should be that the US military should never be used to preemptively attack or invade other nations and should never be stationed in any foreign country. Defending America itself should be priority one, not imposing and defending the interests of the US government and corporations abroad.

55.

Phil Specht
Tue, 09/11/07
1:13 pm

Bush will only compromise when you have him over a barrel. You know that, Phil. Why are you promoting their strategy?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bush will never compromise. It takes either 67 votes or 41.
Giving Republicans one last chance to see the light is reasonable.
--------------

Unfortunately (or not?!), the paradigm's main paradigm is that...TIME/HISTORY CAN'T WAIT.

You judge the entire town

Negatively? Just the GOP and the half of the Democrtic Party who collaborate with them against the Democratic Platform. 

35.

jao Wight
Tue, 09/11/07
2:25 pm

Yes, I know Powell is a republican, but he's what I call "the way they used to be"

==============
Having read his book, my opinion is that Colin Powell is basically a decent human being but is a tragic figure in the Shakespearean sense, in that the one fatal flaw in his otherwise good character, led to the downfall of the entire person.

The battle was lost for the general, who was lost for the horse, who was lost for the horseshoe.

It takes either 67 votes or 41.

That's the excuse for giving Bush everything he wants.

But it doesn't take 67 votes to not give it to him, just 41. Is the Democratic Party to weak to even do that?

Petraeus starts by saying he alone composed the report without outside editing or preview

I'm on the edge of my chair waiting to see if Biden or any others call him on it. 

39.

Sitka

Negatively? Just the GOP and the half of the Democrtic Party who collaborate with them against the Democratic Platform
===============

But of course, you judge three town, all Republicans, good Democrats, and bad Democrats. You still need to get down into town and see the person - or else you are a demagogue.

ten·et play_w("T0105100") (tnt)n. An opinion, doctrine, or principle held as being true by a person or especially by an organization. See Synonyms at doctrine.

28.

rich^kolker
Tue, 09/11/07
2:14 pm


Any Democrat running for a place in the federal government, certainly President, should be able to answer the question "On what fundamental tenets will you build your foreign policy?"

On what fundamental tenets would YOU build a foreign policy for the United States?
----------

Any republican running "for a place" too, btw....lol.
Yes, Rich now that's correct understanding.

My personal answer on that question would be: check out Ron Paul! (links easy to find, including his interview with Goggle CEO), imo, he DOES have "fundamental tenets" (i call it also principles) which NO Democrat has.

46.

My respect for Libertarians (of which Ron Paul is one) is based on the consistancy of their issue positions based on their beliefs.  My problem with them is that I disagree with the conclusions they reach more often than I agree.

On what fundamental tenets would YOU build a foreign policy for the United States?

__________________________________________________________________________

Thanks for the def.....................

Simply, just imitate nations like New Zealand...............

47.

rich^kolker
Tue, 09/11/07
2:46 pm

My problem with them is that I disagree with the conclusions they reach more often than I agree.
----------

for instance?

But of course, you judge three town, all Republicans, good Democrats, and bad Democrats. You still need to get down into town and see the person - or else you are a demagogue.

But of course, only FRED can judge them accurately from safety of his bubble. And of course, that's not demogogic since he doesn't care whether or not Democrats differ from Republicans (but preferably not differ too much).

My problem with them is that I disagree with the conclusions they reach more often than I agree. 

A problem I increasingly also have with the DCDemocratic Party. 

Simply, just imitate nations like New Zealand...............

Perfect! 

T and R

"Tolerance and respect"

Thanks Jim for those words.

And now, in a moment of silence, of shared grief, for all the needless death and suffering that has occured on that fateful 9/11 and afterwards, ....

Every Afghan, every American, every Iraqi, every Pakistani, we are ultimately ALL in this together.

http://www.planetaryexploration.net/patriot/crystal_blue_persua_lyrics.html

I think I'll conclude for the day here, including watching any news.

The 9/11 anniversary, coupled with the Patreaus/Crocker hearings, is just too much for me to watch or listen anymore today.

In a curious way, I'm glad it's drab and rainy here today in southeastern MA.

We haven't had rain for almost a month.

It's like a purging effect.

bbl

Kennedy talking

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan_wm....

Crocker, the Ambassador, asked by McCain about "soft partition" and states that it is not the same as "federalization" which he [Crocker] is for, and finds encouraging that tribes are moving in that direction.

Levin did a magnificent job of grilling Ambassador to Iraq. Lot of attention to detail, and mentions NY Times new story that gives a damning assessment of ethnic cleansing and hatred. It was written by 20 reporters that went to Iraq

49.

Sitka

only FRED can judge them accurately from safety of his bubble. And of course, that's not demogogic since he doesn't care whether or not Democrats differ from Republicans (but preferably not differ too much).

====================
That's a warped figment of your imagination.

I never expressed or implied that POV.

Such a disparaging remark requires a hard quote reference.

if Obama gets the nomination that Powell will endorse him. Might even do it before the primaries.

The Great Republican Toady's endorsement should hurt Obama among Democrats.

____________________________________________

I disagree with that. In the general election, it would help for indep., repub., & democratic votes.

In the primary, I think moderate dems. could find it a positive.

Warner asking a good question, about fundamental change in strategy needed. May not get a good answer from Petraeus. Sounds like globbety glook.

Warner interrupts, criticizes with insisting on political solution - he sound good for 67.

Chalk up another win for Al Gore!

35.

jao Wight
Tue, 09/11/07
2:25 pm

Yes, I know Powell is a republican, but he's what I call "the way they used to be"

==============
Having read his book, my opinion is that Colin Powell is basically a decent human being but is a tragic figure in the Shakespearean sense, in that the one fatal flaw in his otherwise good character, led to the downfall of the entire person.

The battle was lost for the general, who was lost for the horse, who was lost for the horseshoe.

 ________________________________

I don't agree that one "flaw" as you call it can necessarily be the downfall of the entire person. Mistakes  can be corrected, improved, etc.

I have something else that has come to mind. El Sadr has called for the stoppage of fighting for 6 months. ( His militia). He is now providing electricity & water to iraqi's that are without. Much like Hamas was doing in Lebanon. When it comes to voting/fighing, who do you think those people will be for? I think he's going to become the head of Iraq, unless Biden's plan can go thru.

Byrd asked Petraeus if there was an association between 9/11 and Iraq.

Petraeus answers "not that I am aware of, sir"

I disagree with that. In the general election, it would help for indep., repub., & democratic votes.

The infatuation of Democrats with The Great Toady is fortunately a thing of the past.

Sources confirm Israeli airstrike on Syria

63.

jao Wight
=============

I know people can change for the better. I am great believer in healing of the soul. Powell has expressed remorse for his statements, but I was not talking about the present. I was talking about his tragic downfall.

Quick stop by to say I appreciate the running commentary.

I believe we have a Constitutional Crisis: an overpowering Executive Branch that breaks the law, obfuscates, deceives, a Pentagon in collusion and under the thumb of the Executive Branch, a compromised Justice Branch with a Supreme Court lining up with the right wing, NeoCons.

 I wonder if MoveOn was smart to run the ad they did.  Name Calling is juvenile, no matter how you look  at it, and I can't imagine that any Congress person  would want to be associated with calling Petreus Betrayus.  Seems to me to be a bad miscalculation.

So, what do we do?  I don't think predictions of disaster, name calling, and denigration of Congress will solve the crisis.  Instead, how do we bolster Congress to do the right thing?  How do we get them to take the lead; in fact, to pass a bill that takes away the war declaration powers they gave Bush and sets an exit plan?  Seems to me we ought to be getting Congress on our side, not by name calling and criticism, but by the seriousness of the crisis.

We, are in fact, asking Congress to get us out of a misguided, deceptively sold war, and the only way that will happen is if we say, we made a mistake and if the Middle East doesn't want a regional war, the countries affected must help us out, must help Iraq staiblize.  It's got to be diplomatic, economic, culturally sensitive, and equally cooperative.  So, maybe instead of calling Petreus Betrayus, we might ask our Congress people for courage, for uniting under a common responsibility to bring peace, stability, and responsibility to the region and reward them for doing it. Just my two cents, but frankly, we verbal types are simply spinning our wheels and wasting oxygen to engage in name calling, howls of doom, and blame. 

Powell? A good thing? The man who says he knew better but allowed these crooks and killers to carry out their mission, without one public word of opposition-WHEN HE KNEW BETTER? Oh yeah, another NeoCon enabler.

Such a disparaging remark requires a hard quote reference

Just giving back to FRED what he dishes out. He was never was one to take his own medicine.

BTW, "demagogue" was Reagan's pet word for Democrats back when there were a lot more of them willing to stand against the Republican agenda. I'm proud that FRED includes me in such company, but curious why he uses GOP slurs and talking points.

The only good thing Powell has done was leave earlier than later. Everyone knew he trampled any respect that was held and he can only hope time heals memories.

AAR was saying that Betryus wasn't even sworn in. This can't be, or can it?  Are we so far gone that generals are encouraged to lie with impunity?

41 votes to save our country.

Impeachment of Cheney in the House to show we still care about our Constitution.

Send the same or more stringent bill back over and over and blame the repugs and putz for not supporting the troops.

Stop saying  War on Terror.  I've been harping on this for months.

Rescind the MÇÅ.

Start explaining to the public that putz is not a war prez...that he is a dry drunk...a man who only THINKS he's a war prez. ...that he's a legend in his own mind.  All true, yet who'll speak it? 

What part of these suggestions do the dems not get?

Oh, for God's sake, cut the purse strings and be done with it.  Let putz pout and strut and blame while the dems start brings the troops home.   

Powell has expressed remorse for his statements, but I was not talking about the present. I was talking about his tragic downfall.

How can a career lackey have a downfall?

51.

Generically, I see a bigger role for government than libertarians do. I think most of the regulation imposed by government on free enterprise, particularly corporate regulation, has been to the benefit of the average citizen. That is why the 1981-2007 efforts by the GOP to undo all the regulation since McKinley bothers me. I like safe food, effective drugs, transparency, workplace protections, etc. I don't think the "invisible hand" takes care of that. The market doesn't protect us against bad toys (or tires) from China, doesn't protect farmworkers from pesticides or factory workers from Asbestos. It takes government.

That's my problem with libertarianism.

What part of these suggestions do the dems not get?

They all get it. But the half of them in cahoots with Bush don't want to bring the troops home.

63. ...I think he's going to become the head of Iraq, unless Biden's plan can go thru.

=========
Well you share that belief about Al Sadr with Sitka, as he once expressed. Not sure if he still believes that.

The Federalization is one possibility, technically scheduled to begin in January according to the Parliamentary vote

I don't think "Biden's Plan" is Biden's alone. I think it is the U.S. COMPONENT of a universal natural gravitation, that will occur by itself, in the absence of more dominating forces.

Of course, the international and internal leadership, along with the U.S. leadership, can accelerate that gravitation, in a peaceful manner, and prevent negative forces from interferring with it.

63.

I don't know how much Hamas has been involved with death squads killing fellow Lebanese, but there are many reports of Al Sadr's involvement in death squads of ethnic cleansing of Sunnis.

Well you share that belief about Al Sadr with Sitka, as he once expressed. Not sure if he still believes that.

Since al Sadr is the de facto president of Iraq now, I see no reason to believe he won't be the actual one someday. 

Pat, many of us have been calling and writing and offering suggestions that are thoughtful and doable.  THEY ARE NOT LISTENING TO US!   Phil's paygo is a fabulous idea....so is sending the same bill back over and over, making bush the bad guy and then telling the press he's not supporting the troops.  Stripping bush of war powers would be something worthwhile to work on and maybe even garner repug support.

We are angry and frustrated.  Betrayus is the result.  It's also telling truth to power, infantile tho it may seem to some.

Frankly, I find it catchy and it certainly hit a nerve.  When our votes and words and letters don't count, what's left?  

Sources confirm Israeli airstrike on Syria

Next: Hezbolla missiles into Israel. The dance must follow it's steps. 

but there are many reports of Al Sadr's involvement in death squads

Speaking of Reagan! 

Yep - JOe Biden was right - always was right.  Only now they're going to call it a 'soft partition'.  I like the sound of that.    : )   Iraq has given up on US fixing anything.  Each group taking it into their own hands, as necessary.  Now that we've better armed the Sunni - they will protect their own. (Since we brutalized them in Abu Garhaib, and everywhere else - put the Shi'ites in charge and let THEM brutalize them - WE caused the civil war.)  Kurds - they're too busy attacking Iran --AP report says.   SOFT partition .... already mostly done.

 There is a rule about 'protecting the war effort'.   That includes the media going along with the untruths - keeping facts from American people  and their own soldiers.  Petraeus is right now 'protecting the war effort".    AND NOT PROTECTING HIS SOLDIERS OR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.   Nice priorities - General.    Your army is within an inch of being BROKEN.    We will be out of soldiers in April - FACT.   But Petraus's plan goes well beyond April.  This does not compute....  Petraus knows the truth! --- but we're not going to hear it.

Time for a new kind of General:  (1)  DID NOT do well in Viet Nam and we lost it. (2) DID NOT do well in North Korea and we left.  (3)  HAVE NOT done well in Afghanistan and we're losing it again. (4)  ARE NOT doing at all well in Iraq....     With these kind of resumes, I say we FIRE THE WHOLE BUNCH OF THEM!   

75. rich^kolker
================

I agree. Reagan got elected by "getting the government off the backs of the people"...and give it to the corporations.

While Reagan called upon the 1980 Grace Commission to uncover waste and inefficiency in government because "Americans are overtaxed and overregulated," in 1980 W.R. Grace was continuing to hide secret memos that could have prevented thousands of people from dying and growing old with severe lung disease from their open-pit vermiculite mines, which were infested with trimolite, the worst kind of asbestos.

They knew it as early as 1956, and corporate memos from 1972 indicated in should be hushed up for liability reasons. The Grace commission started in 1980 a few years before the first lawsuits finally surfaced because they could no longer hide the damage to workers' lungs. In fact, half the people in the nearby town of Libby, MT have lung disease from the air and workers bringing home on their clothes.

Asbestos damage can take decades to show up. I may have some myself. I am going to schedule an X-ray.

Hi Folks,

 Cleaning for Taco Tuesday, a potluck our small community has once a month.  It's our turn, so am trying to neaten up the clutter.

I am glad for the Anti-War Movement, its efforts, slogans, signs, peace marches, and I see nothing wrong with Betrayus on a sign.  What my concern is, will name calling bring Congress to our point of view or just give them another reason to ignore us.  If I were in Congress, I wouldn't want to be associated with the name calling because people simply get madder and more polarized when that happens.    

Anger and frustration is a reason to back off, to think of a strategy.  It's not an excuse for childish behavior.  If the Peace Movement is to be taken seriously, they have to be serious.  That means responsible dialogue.  Name calling is not; though I'll give you that it does satisfy the human psyche.  "Yer mother wears combat boots."  Feels good to denigrate, but doesn't do anything to accomplish a change of perspective nor come to a possible process to solve the problem. 

 I think one reason Wesley Clark's entrance into the 2004 presidential race went nowhere was partly because of Michael Moore's promotion.  While I appreciate Michael Moore, think he is brilliant, funny, right on, many people run from his statements.  My point, is, that we have to speak the language of the people we want to persuade, and Congress, and many of us, aren't convinced by name calling.  We are embarrassed by it.

ep - JOe Biden was right - always was right.  Only now they're going to call it a 'soft partition'.

Or "nation wrecking" if you prefer. 

We need to mourn those who were lost but we also must mourn those who died, or will die, due to the Bush administration proclaiming that the WTC area was safe, exposing hundreds or thousands of people to toxic chemicals.

And we must mourn the dead in Iraq and Afghanistan - ours and theirs - from the wars that were initiated as a result of the events of the 11th.

And we must honor their memory by no longer subscribing to the myths of what happened that day, put forth by our country's administration and the corporate media. We need a new, unbiased investigation into the attacks and bring everybody who was responsible for this tragedy - foreign or domestic - to justice.

Miracles can happen, even in the lazy heat of summer. At the end of July, 34 evangelical leaders signed a remarkable letter to the President. It urges a more balanced view of Israel than is generally heard from the American pulpit. rense.com

82.

Asbestos was once so ubiquitous that anyone (of a certain age) might have been affected.  I remember when I was a student at the University of Maryland I used to sit in class and play with the asbestos insulation on the hot water pipes that ran along the walls (bored).  They eventually spent LOTS of money de-asbestosing the campus.

Of course, when I was a kid I used to follow the DDT truck on my bicycle to play in the fog, among oither things.  It's amazing I'm alive today. 

79.

Sitka

Sources confirm Israeli airstrike on Syria

Next: Hezbolla missiles into Israel. The dance must follow it's steps.
=============

The right-wingers are going to again torment the Jews in the diaspora and the Israeli people with their holocaust innuendoes, in order to stay in power with fear, like the neocons do here.

The right wing settlers might be happy though. It gives them a purpose in life. The right wing Revisionist Zionists, who've taken over Israel, have used war as a way of acquiring more territory - they have nothing to gain with peace.

85. Well said Dan.

____________________

seashell, yes, that is true and Huron John posted an article in Huff Post about it.

How the folks at the hearing started bickering about how to handle the testimony and them "observing protesters" and how to handle them.

75.

rich^kolker
Tue, 09/11/07
3:38 pm

Reply to this
51. Generically, I see a bigger role for government than libertarians do....
I like safe food, effective drugs, transparency, workplace protections, etc. I don't think the "invisible hand" takes care of that. The market doesn't protect us against bad toys...
It takes government. That's my problem with libertarianism.

----------

I see..., my thoughts was the basically the same till...Ron Paul, he kind of reversed it, and now I see it as a future practical "prospective"...of course not in literal "libertarian" sense but...been modified a little...

bbl.

87.

rich^kolker

==========
I poured vermiculite into the most of the outside walls in a 3-story brick tenement also cleaned it off the pipes in the basement and rebuilt the furnace inside. It was a 3/4 inch space in the walls, and took a lot of time to funnel in. sealed it off good with plaster though, top and bottom, so not worrying about the folks there now.

Sometimes I wore a mask, sometimes I did not, but don't know if the mask was good enough. That was in the 1980s. When I get coughs they are really bad, but other than that, my wind is pretty good when scootering.

85. Dan Wood

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The far right is trying to hang it on Whitman, (who quit the EPA in protest) but Rudy had jurisdiction in NYC to enforce the law.

At the Pentagon no one was allowed near the 9/11 sight without a mask.

The NY firefighters will swift-boat Rudy if he runs.

Anger and frustration is a reason to back off, to think of a strategy.  It's not an excuse for childish behavior.  If the Peace Movement is to be taken seriously, they have to be serious.  That means responsible dialogue.

You've fallen into the trap of assuming the status quo wants to have a dialogue with those who want change. They don't.

Name calling is not; though I'll give you that it does satisfy the human psyche.  "Yer mother wears combat boots."  Feels good to denigrate, but doesn't do anything to accomplish a change of perspective nor come to a possible process to solve the problem.

And it's the staus quo who denigrate those who question them. As for solving problems, the staus quo only creates or ignores them.

I think one reason Wesley Clark's entrance into the 2004 presidential race went nowhere was partly because of Michael Moore's promotion.

Nonsense. Wes Clarke was a stalking horse to fracture the anti-war vote. He never intended to go anywhere. Why Moore backed him is anybody's guess, but endorsements don't anything anyhow.

The NY firefighters will swift-boat Rudy if he runs.

They can't "swiftboat" him since that term means to lie about one's record. 

Fred, Whitman didn't quit in protest, she continues that "it wasn't her responsibility".

Sen. Collins (R-Maine) pushing Crocker for more diplomatic efforts, sounds like another good one for 67 votes

They can't "swiftboat" him since that term means to lie about one's record.

Actually, it means to smear an honorable record -- something which Giuliani doesn't possess. 

Linda*in*SFNM
Tue, 09/11/07
4:25 pm
==================

She didn't quit over that issue. She insists that she recommended masks to the City "strongly, in no uncertain terms" but she did not have the authority to enforce their use at the WTC site. I believe she did have that authority at the pentagon

Sen. Collins (R-Maine) pushing Crocker for more diplomatic efforts, sounds like another good one for 67 votes

That's about as vague as it gets. It's funny how Republicans are desperate to make it look as if they're doing something and Democrats are desperate to actually do nothing (but give Bush everything the wants). 

but she did not have the authority to enforce their use at the WTC site. I believe she did have that authority at the pentagon

FRED should look it up so he'll know for sure. 

"It urges a more balanced view of Israel than is generally heard from the American pulpit. rense.com"******************

I'm not sure what this means.  Does balanced mean the pulpit talking about AIPAC?  The CM adores all things Israel.  Does this letter mean that the pulpit doesn't/does?  Are we talking Israel or Israeli policy?  Lots of differences.

Do you have a link for this? 

When I write or call, I never name call and am respectful...so I reserve the right to be *immature* and call bush putz when I feel like it.  I doubt the MoveOn ad did anything to damage our side since many dems are already rolling over and slobbering at putz's feet.  Words are important, yes, but actions speak louder.  The dems have already been clear about their actions and intentions.  They also know that Betrayus is the appropriate word for him.

Bush knew.  The dems know. 

94.

Sitka

They can't "swiftboat" him since that term means to lie about one's record

=================
I use the term in the tactical sense. I am aware that the Swift boaters were liars, but they attacked his strength as a hero image. I think you will see that term "swift boated" used again in that sense, long after people remember where it came from.

Gerrymandering comes from redistricting by a guy named Gerry (last name) whose district resembled a salamander on a map.

Looking ahead to Nov. 2008:

Senator Chuck Hagel is not running again. Bob Kerrey has already met with Chuck Schumer about running for Hagel's seat.

Kerrey is very popular in Nebraska. The odds would be for him to win. We can only hope -- perhaps another Dem in the Senate.

100.

Sitka

FRED should look it up so he'll know for sure

================
I would but I think it's irrelevant to the argument, except to her credit, since the Pentagon order was enforced.

I think you will see that term "swift boated" used again in that sense, long after people remember where it came from.

I think it will used to describe what it really means -- to smear an honorable record. 

Bob Kerrey has already met with Chuck Schumer about running for Hagel's seat.

Replacing one Republican with another is just spinning the wheels. 

99.

Sitka

That's about as vague as it gets. It's funny how Republicans are desperate to make it look as if they're doing something

==============
Great then maybe they will pass a Democratic exit plan so the it will "appear" they are doing something. Same difference, except for your cynicism.

105.

Sitka

I think it will used to describe what it really means -- to smear an honorable record.

===============
Unfornately, if most people got that impression, Kerry would have won. I think "Swift Boated" will be synonymous with words like "waterloo" or "got railroaded."

Great then maybe they will pass a Democratic exit plan so the it will "appear" they are doing something. Same difference, except for your cynicism.

Appearances are all the GOP and their Democratic collaborators seek to achieve.

Being called cynical by the gullible is a compliment. 

I think "Swift Boated" will be synonymous with words like "waterloo" or "got railroaded."

"railroaded" is a term for injustice -- such as smearing an honorable record -- "swiftboated" 

"waterloo"? That means to meet one's defeat. Not at all in the same context as the above. 

109. Sitka

Being called cynical by the gullible is a compliment.

================
Gullible is what the follower of Bush are, not the Democrats. Live in the present reality, Sitka. Anyone can cherry-pick their events of the past, to suit their cynicism.

85.

You wouldn't believe how many construction workers I talk to who now believe 9-11 was an inside job. Seeing the abundance of evidence of what really happened that day which can be found on the internet, not what the CM is trying to force feed them on TV, has turned many a mind around. I've had people who I argued with for hours about 9-11 a year ago now asking how do we stop this? For those that can handle Deek Jackson's swearing, he has a new FKN NEWS for 9-11 put out today. For those who don't like swearing...please don't click the link...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqKBnKlDY...
If you're not angry, you're not paying enough attention.

110. Sitka

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How about "screwed" ??? You don't think Kerry got screwed?

112. Reed in VT

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I think there has been a growing feeling that there was an attitude of passivity - that the intelligence community feeling about Al Qaeda was a hubris of such magnitude, to be one of

"let them try, it'll make my day"

a kind of daring laxity, which in effect would be an invitation to the 9/11 attackers.

How about "screwed" ??? You don't think Kerry got screwed?

How he got screwed is the point in question. His honorable record was smeared -- he was swiftboated. 

Gullible is what the follower of Bush are, not the Democrats.

Look at how they vote -- about half of DCDems are gullible by FRED's definition.

But I give them more credit for being intelligent than he does. I think they do it because they're corrupt.

FRED, on the other hand, is probably honestly gullible for believing in plans which continue Bush's occupation indefinitely.

Iieberman asked Petraeus if he thought it would be good if he had the authority to go into Iran. The General did not agree  with his question.. Just got me wondering if anyone has seen any polls in Connecticut on how Lieberman is being perceived? I know the Repubs really elected him, but over all was wondering what his popularity is like there. Too bad they can't recall him.

FRED, on the other hand, is probably honestly gullible for believing in plans which continue Bush's occupation indefinitely...

PS.....as well as for supporting and praising Democrats who vote for funding or let it even be voted upon.

115.

Sitka
Tue, 09/11/07
4:55 pm

How he got screwed is the point in question. His honorable record was smeared -- he was swiftboated
================

Exactly. That's what the Republicans will say, that Rudi is getting smeared. They won't say he got swiftboated because they want to maintain the false integrity of the swift boat group, but the pundits will call it "getting swiftboated"

Iieberman asked Petraeus if he thought it would be good if he had the authority to go into Iran. The General did not agree  with his question..

It's pathetic how Joeblow has degenerated into a Cato. 

118. Sitka

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That's your opinion and should call it your opinion - I can speak for myself.

That's what the Republicans will say, that Rudi is getting smeared.

But he isn't getting smeared -- swiftboated -- since the accusations against him are true and his record is not honorable.

smear: to speak ill of; defame; slander.

slander: a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report

That's your opinion and should call it your opinion - I can speak for myself.

FRED is still allergic to mirrors, I see. 

118.

Sitka

PS.....as well as for supporting and praising Democrats who vote for funding or let it even be voted upon.

===========
Don't spend too much time looking in the rear view mirror, Sitka, you might crash. Gravel did not stop funding for Viet Nam, as some here have falsely stated, until after the war.

Stopping the funding for logistics and equipment won't stop the troops - I know you believe that in your heart, and it helps your cynicism, but I do not. That does not make me gullible. It just means I understand the facts better than you do.

Graham is coming down on Patraeus

Graham sounds pissed but asking good questions - sounds like he's good for 67 too.

Just a quick note, then off for the night. 

I don't doubt for a minute that the status quo feels safe to many people in this country, but we're not going to change it by polarizaiton.  We not going to change it by obfuscation, deception, name calling or blame either.  Isn't it about time that we refused to imitate the very people and organization for which we have so little respect?

How much respect did Cheney get for telling Patrick Leahy to "Go f*** yourself!"?  We laughed at him for it.  

That doesn't mean that the anger isn't real, and we have every right to be angry.  What I'm saying is that anger won't solve the prolbem.  It won't bring us power to change the malfeasance that's going on.  The crisis is real, and we are "broken" as John Dean said.  We won't fix it by puerile name calling, cynecism, and blame.  That's weak.

I guess I'll just have to disagree with those who think that name calling and denigrating is a right and is effective. I don't think it is, and I think it reflects on us.

There was an old friend who said, when people talk about others, they're really talking about themselves. They reveal their own feelings about themselves.  I think she's right.  

In any case, I appreciate the dialogue and commentary even when I disagree.  It tells me that the world is various, and as a country we need to know all we can about each other. 

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan_wm....

Senate hearings - live C-Span2

6. Yes, but we can change the "won't" to "will."

Don't spend too much time looking in the rear view mirror, Sitka, you might crash. Gravel did not stop funding for Viet Nam, as some here have falsely stated, until after the war.

Fred and Bush are the ones harking back to Vietnam. What Gravel did way back then, or when that war was defunded, has nothing to do with Bush's occupation and need to defund and end it now -- not down the road a spell.

Stopping the funding for logistics and equipment won't stop the troops - 

It may not stop Bush is what you (should) say. But it will put Democrats finally on the right side of the matter. 

That does not make me gullible.

What makes FRED gullible is believing Democratic "leaders" and Bush enablers want to end the occupation but can't even try to.

It just means I understand the facts better than you do.

It just means FRED doesn't grasp facts any better than the average Bush supporter. 

I don't doubt for a minute that the status quo feels safe to many people in this country, but we're not going to change it by polarizaiton. We not going to change it by obfuscation, deception, name calling or blame either. 

It is they who polarize, obfuscate, deceive, namecall, and blame. Unfortunately, the corporate media convinces too many that it's the other way around.

Don't buy into it. 

Graham sounds pissed but asking good questions - sounds like he's good for 67 too.

Gullible -- I rest my case. 

There was an old friend who said, when people talk about others, they're really talking about themselves. They reveal their own feelings about themselves

Wow! I described FRED that way to a T. 

Republicans are convinced that every action is in response to a directive from outside, or a prompt. They also think that any evidence of weakness or non-aggression is a prompt for aggressive action. That's what accounts for the claim that showing weakness in Iraq will invite aggression against the U.S.
The latter is probably connected to the belief that all men are created evil and the purpose of society is to reform them and make them good.
Ergo, any society that doesn't share that mission is going to be composed of people who are evil and aim to destroy the good.

What's noteworthy, I think, is that radical islam seems to have the same set of beliefs.

So, maybe we have to conclude that just as the antagonism towards communism was largely fueled by jealousy of its dictatorial achievements, the antagonism towards Islam by Christian fundamentalists is equally prompted by jealousy.

103 & 106 - I seem to recall a great Dean Dozen candidate (Scott ??) from Nebraska. We don't need another Lieberdem like Kerrey in there. Good grief.

84
" I think one reason Wesley Clark's entrance into the 2004 presidential race went nowhere was partly because of Michael Moore's promotion."

Clark's 'campaign' went no where because it was designed to go no where
by its creators, the DLC. Clark played his role as the 'anti-dean candidate'
then shut up the shop when told to.

130. Sitka

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Jiminy Cricket strikes again

128. Pat in Colorado

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good post - we need more of that

Sen John Cornan holding up a picture of MoveOn ad in Times - not good for 67.

Senate Foreign Relations hearings with Petraeus

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan_wm....

Hillary's up

131.

There is such a thing as calling a spade a spade.

When we get a funding bill, there are no restrictions on what the money is used for.
For instance, the 50 bn supplemental that is floating around.
Make Bush state what the money is used for. Probably no one can say what the use for the money is as the goverment spending is out of control.
Something mindless like only supporting the exit is easy to skew to supporting everything.
Bush keeps moving the goal posts so make him state how this money will meet the current goal.
Treat it like a business request for a loan. Lots of questions are raised about the use of the money.
The best we can do is pass a funding bill with the money needed with a hard exit date. Keep passing the same bill with the date always six months after the current date.
The most important thing is get a date which will get us out of there. The money is immaterial at this time and is used as a strawperson to show how the opposition doesn't support the troops.

Webb's plan of guaranteeing twelve months between deployments is also good. There are not enough troops to allow that much time between deployments. Head-count in Iraq would have to be reduced.

So maybe the best chance of getting out is play hardball over the money. Force Bush to defend his position. Then send a bill with the bucks, an exit date 6 months off, and demanding troops be given 12 months between deployments.

114.
Fred, I guess I really don't understand why so many intelligent people here still accept the White Houses 9-11 version. The questions I want answered do not pertain to whether the buildings were hit by something, allowed or not. I want to know why 9 ton titanium engines do not break window glass in the Pentagon. I want to know how jet fuel melts steel in an uncontrolled burn. I want to know why thermite was found at ground zero. I want to know how three steel frame buildings fell at free fall speed from fires. I want to know why the crime scene was not investigated. I want to know why so many of the steel supports were cut at angles, not twisted. I want to know why first reports in the Pennsylvania and the Pentagon crashes had very little visible debris or bodies. I want to know how poorly trained pilots can pull off expert maneuvers. I want to know why the Pentagon doesn't release a video of what hit it. I want to know why so many people and firefighters reported seconary explosions, some from the basements, before the buildings fell. I want to know more about Marvin Bush's involvment in security of the building up to 9-10-01. I want to know more about the power downs with sections of the buildings evacuated in the weeks prior to 9-11. I want to know the truth.

128.
Pat, I agree personally and really try my best not to engage in puerile name calling, cynecism, and blame...doesn't mean it doesn't happen from time to time when I snap though. I do however think there is a large population that do this as a of humor and do not take it personally. The pecking order of a construction crew and the one upsmanship that goes on is common place and this stuff registers with them. I know my link was a bit over the top for some here but certainly not for some others.

Calls reports "requiring the willful suspension of disbelief" referring to classic mindset of audience theatre participation.

Hillary says "overall" civilian deaths have risen (as opposed to report saying civilian deaths declined)

Hillary: 67% Iraqis say since before surge, it has worsened situation.

Petraeus coping out with "don't ask me, I only work here" kind of response. Expresses hope for international efforts, notes calendar of forums and summits ahead, mentions UN.

The reason the down time is needed is to cover troop cycles if the withdrawl time is over one year (I have read that up to 18 months will be needed).

145. Reed in VT

==============
There has been at least one PBS documentary that would answer some of your question on the structural anamolies.

what is thermolite?

The Twin Towers were not steel frame, like the Empire State Building. They were steel-reinforced concrete, much less resilient, and were more vulnerable because they were made to have larger open spaces, without columns, for meeting rooms.

The counterinsurgency manual the Patreus had written describes in detail what should be done. Like VN, we are too late to be able to change things because we lied to go there, murdered a whole lot of innocent people, and generally treat everyone like crap.
We are not going to win over the hearts and minds that way. Since we are the occupier, the short answer is no longer occupy.
Wether it is divide the country up softly or a strong central leader means nothing at this time. These are arguments for those that think we have a say-so in the outcome. There is no outcome if we stay. So we set a date and force a discussion of what happens next.

142. Susan Rowe 131.

There is such a thing as calling a spade a spade
================

Instead of "calling" we should be defining and referencing.

There were several specials on the Science station and PBS about buildings that came down.
My son is a volunteer fireman in upstate NY and was there a couple of days later. He talked with a lot of firefighters and no one mentioned any explosions that were not caused by jet fuel.
Not all airplane parts are titanium.
The firefighters new they were climbing the stairs to their deaths. My son's team wore masks and his medical exams show no lung damage. Maybe he was just lucky.

Firefighters and witnesses never mentioned beams with saw marks on them. My son said that most debris was smaller then an index card. Maybe the beams were cut later to make things easier to move?

Talking with pilots, a building is easy to hit and the pilots had flight training - not landing training.

I don't do conspiracy theories anymore. Must be too old I guess and it is impossible for a secret to be kept very long.

I think you're mistaken Fred...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxm8lB-V2...

149. dog soldier
6:23 pm

Wether it is divide the country up softly or a strong central leader means nothing at this time....So we set a date and force a discussion of what happens next...

===============
What harm in trying to do both simultaneously, (get out and help lead a political solution) especially if the political component will get the 2/3 votes in Congress to get us out sooner?

Or do you think the effort for a solution somehow detracts from the emphasis of exiting? I happen to think the opposite. I think it will accelerate our leaving.

done for the night...

One more time,
We cannot do both because we have no say in the outcome.
First we set a date then let the discussion about what to do next.
To just blather on and on about this plan or another is meaningless. Nothing gets done until we state when we are leaving. Whe are an occupier; not a liberator or invited guest.

152. Reed in VT

===============
Sorry to tell you - I am not wrong. I watched them build the Twin Towers from my house in New Jersey, and went to manhattan often.

They poured concrete into forms. That is not steel frame. That is reinforced concrete, like the tallest building West of the Mississippi, in LA, only that one is Pumice, lightweight concrete, believe it or not (see link)

http://www.clppumice.com/light_concrete....

I was thinking about names today and how some people believe that names mean something and actually say something about the person named.

Take Patreaus for example.  It sounds exactly like betray us and that's exactly what he's doing.  Was he chosen, perhaps unconsciously BECUZ of his name?  There are no accidents and putzie tells the truth about himself all the time w/o realizing it.

Calling putz a  putz does nothing to demean him.  He demeans himself every time he opens his mouth...look at his performance at APEC.  The Jews have a perfect word for people like that....Putz.

I don't think we can take take stuff seriously, unless there's no truth to it.  What's serious is the fact that impeachment isn't proceeding, diplomacy is non-existent and another 50 B  is going to go god knows where unless the corrupt repugs and dems stop it.   They damn well have heard us; they simply are ignoring our wishes.

We are not a representative democracy.  While Pelosi is dining with the putz, she should be on tv calling him out.

Or calling him a putz.  :-)

I don't know people who believe the putz report about 9/11.  I also don't think JFK was killed by only one man.   We need to wake up to the fact that we have been a banana republic dressed up in democracy.  The MIC has gotten the bit in its teeth.

156.
The floors of the WTC were concrete poured slabs, the core and frame were steel with the exterior being aluminum and glass. Maybe the link I provided will refresh your memory.

There is such a thing as calling a spade a spade.

Or repeating what the corporate media has plowed planted and harvested from one's brain. 

Sen Webb says Anbar was "turning around" before the surge. Webb seems to be mostly concerned in overusing and abusing the troops by straining them too hard for too long. Sees parallels with Lebanon in the early 1980s with Crocker.

BTW, I don't like Kerrey.  His performance on the 9/11 committe was awful... the whole commission abated the cover-up and avoided the hard questions. 

I don't like Kerrey.  His performance on the 9/11 committe was awful...

It was just a continuation of his performance as a senator. 

158. Reed in VT

156.
The floors of the WTC were concrete poured slabs, the core and frame were steel with the exterior being aluminum and glass. Maybe the link I provided will refresh your memory.

==========
The aluminum and glass had no structural value there were steel joists joining the core and and the outer structure. You have no link that shows the inner core was steel-frame instead of reinforced steel. I doubt that would be possible because you would have expansion coefficient differences with temperature change between a solid steel core and a concrete outer structure, which would probably rip it apart. The steel bars in reinforced concrete are not continuously one piece for 1000' like they would be with a steel frame.

But if you can find a technical link to support what you say, I could always be wrong somehow, I guess.

Jiminy Cricket strikes again

If Pinnochio had listened to Jiminy's advice he would have saved himself much pain and trouble. 

The only thing I've ever held a candle to Howard Dean for is being libeled when I was right by those who were wrong all along.

Biden is excellent on Hardball.  I like many things about him, one of which is that I think he desperately wants our troops home and safe. Or at least most of them.  Forced partitioning by the US doesn't do it for me.

There's something about him I've always liked.  That said,

Gore for prez.

So Betrayus doesn't know if our being there is making us safer.  Warner,bless him, brought that out of him.  It's headlining Matthews program. 

Webb coming up on Matthews. 

abated s/b abetted  :-)

dog,

first, glad your son is OK from wearing a mask...many are very ill.
the engines of the plane that supposedly hit the Pentagon were 9 tons each with titanium components and the windows in the area they should have hit are intact after impact...there's video of it

there's many videos with first hand reports of secondary explosions.

the videos showing the angle cuts from thermite is before any crews or equipment are there to dismantle.

there are numerous pilots that say it is near impossible for a plane the size of the one that hit the Pentagon to pull of the maneuvers it did at the speed at which it was traveling and it's proximity to the ground.

I didn't use to do conspiracy theories but the evidence is overwhelming here.

So Betrayus doesn't know if our being there is making us safer.  Warner,bless him, brought that out of him.

Isn't it amazing how honest some politicians can be once they decide to give up their office?

As good a reason for term limits as any. 

Fred, will this do?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_%28str...

Concept

The tube system concept is based on the idea that a building can be designed to resist lateral loads by designing it as a hollow cantilever perpendicular to the ground. In the simplest incarnation of the tube, the perimeter of the exterior consists of closely spaced columns that are tied together with deep spandrel beams through moment connections. This assembly of columns and beams forms a rigid frame that amounts to a dense and strong structural wall along the exterior of the building.

This exterior framing is designed sufficiently strong to resist all lateral loads on the building, thereby allowing the interior of the building to be simply framed for gravity loads. Interior columns are comparatively few and located at the core. The distance between the exterior and the core frames is spanned with beams or trusses and intentionally left column-free. This maximizes the effectiveness of the perimeter tube by transferring some of the gravity loads within the structure to it and increases its ability to resist overturning due to lateral loads.

Variations

From its inception, the tube has been varied to suit different structural requirements:

Framed tube

This is the simplest incarnation of the tube. It can take a variety of floor plan shapes from square and rectangular, circular, and freeform. The most notable examples are the Aon Center and the destroyed World Trade Center towers.

and WTC& which wasn't hit by any plane...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Tra...

The structural design of 7 World Trade Center included numerous features to allow a larger building than originally planned to be constructed. A system of gravity column transfer trusses and girders was located between floors 5 and 7 to transfer loads to the smaller foundation.[3] Existing caissons installed in 1967 were used, along with additional new caissons, to accommodate the building. The 5th floor functioned as a structural diaphragm, providing lateral stability and distribution of loads between the new and old caissons. Above the 7th floor, the building's structure was a typical tube-frame design, with columns in the core and on the perimeter and lateral loads resisted by perimeter moment frames.

WTC& s/b WTC7

9-11 was a tragedy and a crime as is the Iraq war. The perpitrators of these crimes should be brought to justice and I don't believe they're on the other side of the ocean.
Sorry to any I might have offended with that first link...bye.

168. Reed in VT

========
Well, Reed I did some googling and the structure is a lot different than I thought, but not exactly what I thought you said either.

It seems the ratio of steel to concrete is actually higher in the WTC than the empire state building but the former used more of both, and was more of like a tradition skeletal frame.

Also, the WTC was made with lots of pre-fab pieces assembled at the site. It was made much flimsier.

The video link you posted talks about heat like it is static and stationary. A flame is hot in the middle, like the center of the blue "point" on the gas stove is 1600 degrees, but an inch away it drops to less than half that, the base of the point is even less, and that heat gets dissipated in the burner metal. So the steel of space heater does not need to withstand 1600 degrees.

Also, the video talks about the melting point of steel, and the temperature needed. Well, steel does not have to get that hot to become flexible and maleable. That's what blacksmiths did, and they did not have a blast furnace.

The building material in the WTC needed time to accumulate heat buildup before it got hot enough to warp and weaken. That's what took time. The hottest time of the fire does not mean it was the hottest time for the material because material takes time to absorb and accumulate heat.

170. Reed in VT

==============
They really don't go into detail. I doubt if the "tube" structure was solid continuous steel. If it were it would have stood in place erect, while the rest of the building fell around it. Obviously, it was a fragmented structure of concrete and steel made in a "tubular" fashion.

Seems pretty complex to me.

Aother thing, Reed. You say that some things don't burn, well if you ask any fire-fighter they will tell you - anything will burn if it gets hot enough and has oxygen. Aluminum burns easily. I've seen it burn on house siding. There was lots of polyester paint, plastic, pressboard furniture, etc. in those towers, all of which burn very hot. Plastic is made from petroleum.

114.

FRED from OR
Tue, 09/11/07
4:54 pm


===============
I think there has been a growing feeling that there was an attitude of passivity - that the intelligence community feeling about Al Qaeda was a hubris of such magnitude, to be one of


---->>> Fred, it wasn't the "intelligence"community that was hubris enabling the attacks, it was the NeoCons and their name calling and belittling the entire community work and efforts. We all know now it was simply to be a counter argument on the facts so they could push what they planned to push. That was why the NeoCons would hurt, at any cost, our dedicated Intelligence community, just to get THEIR way. The only mistake the mistake the Intelligence community made was not sounding the Blowing Whistle hard and loud. And Tenet giving in to Bush as he did. Scott Ritter, Ray McGovern, Hans Blix, Kay, Valerie Plame, and on and on and on paid the price for the NeoCons hubris.

T

Fred, I use torches and welders and know what happens to steel when heated quite well. Blacksmith's actually do need to have a controlled burn to heat steel to form it, they blast air from a nozzle they pump with their foot to get red hot tempuratures. Even if the temps at the impact site were hot enough to weaken the steel to bend and the weight of the floors did pancake, the steel core should have still been standing with a twisted top. The weight was all outside the cores and the buildings came straight down. What was the material to damage these massive beams in the core? Metal bends and twists when it fails, it doesn't snap like twigs.
175.You're logic is putting you on the right path...find me anywhere where the core wasn't solid continuous steel...you've got one eye open...keep going.

http://www.blogforamerica.com/view/22176...

new thread and Hagel is up on C-Span

176.
FRED from OR
Tue, 09/11/07
8:04 pm
Reply to this


Aother thing, Reed. You say that some things don't burn

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Where did I say this?

By the way...a thick tube is also stronger than solid steel, has two surfaces to bend instead of one.