People of peace are always first.......politicians and bureacrats are second.......you eant peace?  I mean REALY want peace?  Then you cant keep electing candidates like we see from both parties with he exception of Kucinich and Gravel..............but the bigger obstacle is the military indistrial complex and our masters from you know where.............................hint: oil and ME

Chair or the D.N.C. - Howard Dean M.D.
is

FIRST


If a candidate for nomination

fails to support the rules of the Party

they shall be last.

or s/b of

clippings:

~Democratic presidential candidates Hillary Rodham Clinton, Barack Obama and John Edwards have pledged not to campaign in Michigan or Florida, two states that have bucked their party's nomination schedule.~

+

~Bill Richardson just announced that he has signed a pledge to respect the Pre-February 5 window set by the Democratic National Committee.~

~~~ ~~~~~ ~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~ ~~~~~~~

OK, so that's four that I know of who will respect the rules.

I am not up on the others, but undersatand that Mr Kucinich from Ohio does not respect the rules.

So


Kucinich as a candidate can bite me; Kucinich is last...dead last.

from Mark twain.......

"The statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception." -- "Chronicle of Young Satan" Mark Twain

..and since it is Sunday, also from Twain.. The War Prayer...


"O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale form of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen."

~Democrats Bill Richardson, Chris Dodd and Joe Biden on Friday pledged not to campaign in states that hold early nominating contests in violation of party rules~

OK, so the Dems who are viable for me at this point are:

Richardson, Dodd, Biden, Clinton, Obama and John Edwards

All those in favor of spending another $50 billion... say...Aye.

Not another dime, chilimac.

"smugness never wins in politics" ~Robert Reich

Said on THIS WEEK with George Steponmyhigalot...

and there is the definitive! George Will.

Hey mr Will, how 'bout one of those baseball analogies?

George Stuffitupyoursnout

discounted Matt Bie's remark,

in which he described the Repug Admin and The Repug Party in general, and Press Sec Tony Snow specifically

as being out of touch and having a case of tin-ear.


Why you wonder?

Tony Snow said that HIS $168,000/year with full and top tier health care

for himself and his three kids


is putting him in the poor house.



Yup, George swept it away fast as you can say compassion.

CBS


says Larry Craig was subjected to out of control police.

a victim of a police lynching?


Did Craig plead guilty?


Oh me oh my, the poor oppressed bourgeoisie!

Commie, pinko, liberal, f@g.

To jail!

Spector calls for Larry Craig to fight his guilty plea in Minnesota and keep his seat in the Senate.

Spector wants to forget about yesterday and not investigate Gonzales further.

Do we not learn from our mistakes?

Does history has something of value to teach?


Spector, like Sen Cain, has no credibility in moderate circles, both are sleeper partisans.

"forget about yesterday"


^ you know that this MAY BE a current and future Repug talking point.

IS ?

"former Democratic senator Bob Kerrey possibly waiting in the wings"

in Nebraska? Against Sen Hagel?

Obstructionist-in-Chief Mitch McConnell Targeted Again on Iraq

Obstructionist-in-Chief Mitch McConnell

Targeted Again on Iraq



Check out These Ads Slamming Mitch McConnell

on Iraq Side-by-Side...Powerful





Click Here to View the Current Ad Being Run by Americans Against Escalation (AAEI) in Iraq Entitled "Progress"



Click Here to View the Ad Run Earlier in Kentucky by AAEI Partner Americans United for Change Entitled "Wrong"


http://www.americansunitedforchange.org/...

14.

Imn2Paine

I'm sure happy it's Spector and a Republican that is back peddling and not another Democrat-for a change!

Gravel and Kucinich in failing to decide to follow the DNC RULES

have shut the door on their run to become POTUS.





Shrum
to
Matlin

" you are not representative of the idea common American"


Finally! About fricken time someone called her the ugly duckling she is. Now it is incumbent on all to jump on her and stomp her into the ground. Bury her, and her hubby will take time away for the funeral.

18.

Linda*in*SFNM
>
Right and thank g@d for Lahey who wants to keep peddlin' forward and learn.

Shrum
to
Matlin

" you are not representative of the ideal common American"

and


"this is the relentless rhetoric of redemption"

Hey folks, Schrum is doin' OK as a pundit on MTP.

Oh, and Schrum described Matlin's shift on what the Dems want (ie a precipitous withdrawl of U.S. troops as a

"Cheneyism"


I think I'm accurrate.

a video of Gravel and John (Cougar[I just LOVE HIM and have for so long[)Mellancamp on Real Time with Bill Maher.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jGAFaOXkLag&m...

Matlin's husband (forget his name) is not of heavy value to Dems...even as NBC, Russert, and MTP market him to the potential viewer.

Russert as political scold:

Russert asked carville w/not Hillary was playing
"the terrorist card"
with a stern face.

Imn2Paine
Sun, 09/02/07
10:53 am
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You certainly cannot be that stupid(or nieve if you want politenes)..............

They never stood a chance anyway........................

26.

Michael Ellis
Sun, 09/02/07
11:09 am

if you want politenes)..............
>

as if, IN GENERAL, you were anything like respectful here, Mike.


I may be "nieve" as you might describe me, and it is valid. I am somewhat nieve; but, my intention in critisizing Gravel and Kucinich, both of whom I like, is display to bloggers like you the reality of how the field is narrowed.

Before this Florida failure to follow the DNC rules crystalized I found all eight viable.

It's 11:30

TTFN

Ravi Shankar

CD: Tana Mana
Song: "Tana Mana"

http://www.npr.org/programs/asc/

OK, so the Dems who are viable for me at this point are: Richardson, Dodd, Biden, Clinton, Obama and John Edwards

Having voted to invade Iraq allows candidates to be viable, but campaigning in FL doesn't?

It's a strange world. 

Having voted to invade Iraq allows candidates to be viable,...

===============

Heard on Neocon TV commercial "I think the Congrees was right to vote for invading Iraq..."

This spin is a lie both you and the Neocons are perpetrating - something the Far Left and Far Right have in common.

The vote for UN inspections, and giving the President authorization to enforce those inspections, was NOT a vote to invade.

Paine..
you might want to consider.... who made the first change to the Dem primary
calendar in a quarter century(in '02) and why he did it...supposedly to 'unite the
party EARLY around the Dem nominee'(DLC'er Kerry in 04) and of course now
dear Hillary...

..and yes... he's also(no surprise!!!!!) a campaign chairman for her.......

It is a strange world - that I will agree

I skipped Russert MTP this morning when I saw the Cajun and his wife. Also Wash Journal had a great lineup. They had this guy named Christopher Hayes about his article in the Nation on the "NAFTA Superhighway" -- he said what he says are the facts -- namely that yes it's 3 football fields wide in TX but it ends there. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Here's a link to his article which I admit I haven't actually read yet.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070827/ha...

Here's an excerpt:
There's no such thing as a proposed NAFTA Superhighway.

Though opposition to the nonexistent highway is the cause célèbre of many a paranoiac, the myth upon which it rests was not fabricated out of whole cloth. Rather, it has been sewn together from scraps of fact.

He did say that we can't know too much about the recent SPP meeting of Bush and the Mex and Can leaders because it was all secret.

----------------

The other interesting guest was a guy who was saying that Chavez in Venezuela gets a bad wrap in the US, that Chavez said incendiary things about USA because we tried to overthrow him in 2002 but other than that he is a 'pragmatic guy' and that Venezuela oil money has become the IMF of South America -- they are no longer dependent on us for resources, ergo, they do not have to follow US policies. It was a great, intelligent half hour and I wish to heck I could remember the guys name or institute to give you a link.

Oh and I agree with Paine -- if the candidates don't fall in line with Howard, they can't have my vote, not that they ever had it in the first place and I can't vote in the primary anyway.

The vote for UN inspections, and giving the President authorization to enforce those inspections, was NOT a vote to invade.

There's one born every minute. 

Annilow
Sun, 09/02/07
11:48 am 

THIS IS INTERESTING FROM YOUR LINK

.... Equipped with high-tech electronic customs monitors, freight from China, offloaded into nonunionized Mexican ports, will travel north, crossing the border with nary a speed bump, bound for Kansas City, where the cheap goods manufactured in booming Far East factories will embark on the final leg of their journey into the nation's Wal-Marts.

=============

Many Chinese products are banned from importation into Mexico because they are seen as competitors in global contracts.

Global Waming Interactive Map

http://www.blogforamerica.com/view/22058...

From Christoper Hayes piece, this is just an outstanding paragraph:

But there's something more. The myth of the NAFTA Superhighway persists and grows because it taps into deeply felt anxieties about the dizzying dislocations of twenty-first-century global capitalism: a nativist suspicion of Mexico's designs on US sovereignty, a longing for national identity, the fear of terrorism and porous borders, a growing distrust of the privatizing agenda of a government happy to sell off the people's assets to the highest bidder and a contempt for the postnational agenda of Davos-style neoliberalism. Indeed, the image of the highway, with its Chinese goods whizzing across the border borne by Mexican truckers on a privatized, foreign-operated road, is almost mundane in its plausibility. If there was a NAFTA highway, you could bet that Tom Friedman would be for it--what could be more flattening than miles of concrete paved across the continent?--and Lou Dobbs would be zealously opposed. In fact, Dobbs has devoted a segment of his show to the highway, its nonexistence notwithstanding. "These three countries moving ahead their governments without authorization from the American people, without Congressional approval," he said. "This is as straightforward an attack on national sovereignty as there could be outside of war."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070827/ha...

The vote for UN inspections, and giving the President authorization to enforce those inspections, was NOT a vote to invade.

There's one born every minute

=====================

Yea, myopic idiots, like you and John, helping the Neocons with their case, like the "young Turks" in the Democratic Party who trashed Carter and helped Reagan to win in 1980

Yea, myopic idiots, like you and John, helping the Neocons with their case, like the "young Turks" in the Democratic Party who trashed Carter and helped Reagan to win in 1980

FRED hates name calling. 

Florida's primary will be a straw vote (for both parties). We will vote and our votes will be counted but our electors will not go to the convention.

If our Dem votes were to be counted at the convention, then my own thinking would probably be somewhat different than it otherwise will be. I may have been voting against a leading candidate by voting for another top competitor.

As a straw voter, I will feel free to vote for a "lower tier" candidate I would like to nominated without those chess game ulterior motives.

And, as a first primary election in the country (at least at present), a straw vote by the country's fourth most populous state could still be quite influential in later primaries.

I don't like myopic idiots either.

or suckers

Florida's primary will be a straw vote (for both parties). We will vote and our votes will be counted but our electors will not go to the convention.

Expect some quiet deal to be made before then to accredit FL's delegates. The last thing the party wants is for their infomercial convention to be ruined by rancor. 

41. Good point Joan -- even though it 'doesn't count' it could count.

I don't like myopic idiots either. 

Then, for god's sake, stay away from mirrors! 

34.

I can't vote in the primary anyway. 

Anni,

Sure you can vote. 

On January 29, 2008, Florida will have a Presidential Preference Primary & Special Election (Amendments). As a poll worker, I have already received our instructions and dates.

Our votes will be more like straw votes. Dems get no electors and Repugs get half of theirs. Be sure and vote on Jan. 29 as the amendments are very important ones having to do with property taxes and restrictions on growth for all of Florida. (Close the gates!!)

no quiet deal will be made if those delegates would lead to one outcome while the legal delegates from a later process would lead to another outcome

 Bob Schieffer. (CBS)   was actually under the impression that Biden was against immediate withdrawal from Iraq - that's the effect our bloggers have on the media.  Biden had to remind him that there was a  Biden-Levin bill back in January 2007 that called for 80% withdrawal by Spring of 2008. 

That date no longer looks possible from a logistical standpoint.

45.

Anni,

Didn't see your post first. You are right, they don't count but can have a huge influence.

49.

Bob Schieffert only sees and hears what he wants to.

Did you notice how his repug candidate pundit discussion got five minutes while the Dems got about 20 seconds?

44.

Expect some quiet deal to be made

Sitka

Apparently you do not understand the determination and leadership qualities of Howard Dean.

bbl

Joan* In*Florida
Sun, 09/02/07
12:19 pm

============

But some of his last words on previous shows were really anti-occupation - so l'm confused - is he playing both sides or just naive?

Bob Schieffer. (CBS)   was actually under the impression that Biden was against immediate withdrawal from Iraq - that's the effect our bloggers have on the media.  Biden had to remind him that there was a  Biden-Levin bill back in January 2007 that called for 80% withdrawal by Spring of 2008.

To everybody but a myopic idiot, leaving 20% of the current number of Americans in Iraq means reduction rather than withdrawl.

Only a myopic idiot doesn't realize that if one's toes are still in the bear trap, one's whole foot might as well be.

Money accumulated in less than two weeks for an ad in Iowa to end the occupation

evidence of a deal would be if the actual delegates selected for Denver differed widely from the straw poll

 but remember the Iowa caucus sets the allocation of delegates, but if candidates drop out prior to the actual selection of the individual delegates, they are free to support another candidate first at the County Convention and then again before Delegates are elected at the District Convention or the final smaller group elected at large from the State Convention in June, and all of the states go through a somewhat similar process

no quiet deal will be made if those delegates would lead to one outcome while the legal delegates from a later process would lead to another outcome

How will "legal" delegates be chosen if the voters of FL are disenfranchised? 

To everybody but a myopic idiot, leaving 20% of the current number of Americans in Iraq means reduction rather than withdrawl.

===========

What experience do you have in this area of expertise?

most state primaries set allocation of delegates, and I know of none where the actual names of the delegates are on a statewide ballot, so asking Florida to take an intermediate step is not picking on them since most other states do have such a step

Money accumulated in less than two weeks for an ad in Iowa to end the occupation

"Hi. I'm Joe Biden. Only someone who helped lead America into Iraq can lead it out again. Since George Bush can't be president for a third term, please give me your support. And don't listen to myopic idiots who say public figures should be held accountable for their actions."

In Iowa the "legal" delegates are elected at District Conventions in May and the State Convention in June

no reason Florida can't use a similar process as they have a legal system of bodies that can legally fill empty spots on a ballot after the primary(Dave Loebsack was nominated in such a fasion and is now Congressman Loebsack. )

the National Delegates can be elected in Florida in a similar fashion

What experience do you have in this area of expertise?

At least as much as FRED. 

In other words it should be easy for Florida to elect National Delegates that will be seated.

In other words it should be easy for Florida to elect National Delegates that will be seated.

I ask again. Who will elect them if FL voters are disenfranchised? 

Unfortunately Sitka, it will take more than one-liners to assemble an international forum, discuss federalization with the Iraqi parties, assemble regional peace-keepers to ensure regional and ethnic sovereignity, end the civil war and prevent a regional proxy war.

It would be nice if you could do that with one-liners, but to do what we did in Bosnia was not good luck or an accident.  It was intelligent Democrats and others, working very hard to make it happen.  Biden was part of that.  Something about which you have very little intelligence and knowledge.  I trust our Democratic leaders to do this right - even if Bush did betray their trust on the UN Resolution. 

I disagree with both you and John.  You two agree with the Neocon Rovian TV ads that imply Democrats voted for this invasion-occupation. 

You are betraying your own party by going full circle.

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/#61348

Why Is Tom DeLay Even Allowed On TV Anymore?

First he shows up yesterday morning on The Today Show in the guise of an expert to speak with Matt Lauer about Republican corruption, and then he pops up last night on Hardball to discuss the Larry Craig scandal with Chris Matthews. In both appearances, disgraced erstwhile House Majority Leader DeLay spent most of his time grousing about Democratic corruption and the media's alleged double-standard in making hay over GOP scandals while ignoring Democratic ones.

That he blathered endlessly on these tired old raggedy-ass talking points is not a surprise; being a Republican shill unhindered by an ounce of integrity or regard for reality is all he knows how to do. What never ceases to amaze, however, is that there are still media outlets willing and eager to give him air time to disgorge his diarrhetic bloviations while treating him like a legitimate source of wisdom and perspective.

The guy is a crook to his core, and, far from being gifted with the sort of charisma and magnetism that makes one an irresistible TV source, DeLay is a whining, humorless wreck of a guest with nothing of substance to add, who delivers the same pointless dreck every time to boot.

Unfortunately Sitka, it will take more than one-liners to assemble an international forum, discuss federalization with the Iraqi parties, assemble regional peace-keepers to ensure regional and ethnic sovereignity, end the civil war and prevent a regional proxy war.

It would be nice if you could do that with one-liners, but to do what we did in Bosnia was not good luck or an accident.  It was intelligent Democrats and others, working very hard to make it happen.  Biden was part of that.  Something about which you have very little intelligence and knowledge.  I trust our Democratic leaders to do this right - even if Bush did betray their trust on the UN Resolution. 

I disagree with both you and John.  You two agree with the Neocon Rovian TV ads that imply Democrats voted for this invasion-occupation. 

You are betraying your own party by going full circle.

48.

Joan* In*Florida
Sun, 09/02/07
12:16 pm

Joan -- I'm a 'no party affilitation' person -- they won't let me vote in the primary will they?

what we did in Bosnia was not good luck or an accident.

FRED keeps comparing apples to oranges amd making silk purses out sow ears.

I trust our Democratic leaders to do this right - even if Bush did betray their trust on the UN Resolution.

FRED says Biden was stupid to trust Bush, but is smart enough to be president.

disagree with both you and John.  You two agree with the Neocon Rovian TV ads that imply Democrats voted for this invasion-occupation.

Not only did they vote for invasion, they continue to fund the occupation. That's why their approval is about 20% and even most ordinary Democrats are fed up with them.

You are betraying your own party by going full circle.

I'm an Independent -- you know, one of those voters Democrats care more about than their own base.

Sitka
Sun, 09/02/07
1:03 pm

I'm an Independent -- you know, one of those voters Democrats care more about than their own base.

=========

Yea, an "independent," like Judas Iscariot

Yea, an "independent," like Judas Iscariot

I'm no religious expert, but wasn't Judas necessary for Jesus to do what he needed to do?

People who hold Democrats accountable will do more to help the party change and win than its apologists ever will. 

Afghan Police Are Set Back as Taliban Adapt 

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan, Aug. 26 — Over the past six weeks, the Taliban have driven government forces out of roughly half of a strategic area in southern Afghanistan that American and NATO officials declared a success story last fall in their campaign to clear out insurgents and make way for development programs, Afghan officials say.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/world/asia/02taliban.html?th&emc=th

Are we safer now than B4  9/11?

69.

FRED from OR
Sun, 09/02/07
12:59 pm

...but to do what we did in Bosnia was not good luck or an accident. It was intelligent Democrats and others, working very hard to make it happen. Biden was part of that. Something about which you have very little intelligence and knowledge. I trust our Democratic leaders to do this right...
---------

Not surprisingly, some like very much to jump into all sorts of conclusions BEFORE things happened.

Do they do it for simple ideological reasons, or egocentric ones, or what?
Instead they could continue "intelligently discussing issues"... till everyone got tired of it...., lol


http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-0...

Serbia threatens to retaliate if Kosovo declares unilateral independence

2007-08-31 05:03:07

TIRANA, Aug. 30 (Xinhua) -- Serbia threatened on Thursday to take every means possible to retaliate if Kosovo declares unilateral independence, news reaching here from Belgrade reported.

"If someone inflicts injuries on you, then you must respond and hit back and do some damage as well," Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica told reporters.

He said Serbia would do everything to prevent Kosovo from proclaiming unilateral independence. However, he declined to specify what kind of means he would take for retaliation if Kosovo proceeds with its intention of unilateral independence.
............

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-0...

People who hold Democrats accountable....

==========

Calling a vote for UN inspections a vote for the Bush invasion is a lie that helps Neocons.  It is  not accountability. 

The Neocons know that - that's why Neocons say exactly what you and John say - in their new ad.

I'm sure you can slither out of that with another one-liner

67. Biden's "soft partition" is a total non-starter. No Iraqis want it, and it can't be implemented, even over their objections.

It's a dangerous and unwelcome distraction from the task of getting our troops the hell out of there, and safely.

If we really give a fig for the Iraqis, we can worry about how to help (and whom) when we're safely away.

The real lesson of Vietnam is that once the Americans leave, the citizens of the country can work things out.

The Democrats should unite on getting our troops out, then worry about what we can do to help. All the nonsense about "bloodbaths" is shorthand for keeping enough troops there to allow Big Oil to rip 'em off.

Calling a vote for UN inspections a vote for the Bush invasion is a lie that helps Neocons.  It is  not accountability.

Putting lipstick on the pig is what helps the NeoCons since it protects the Democrats who have helped them and may well again. 

The Neocons know that - that's why Neocons say exactly what you and John say - in their new ad.

I base neither my opinions nor actions on ads. Anyone who does is a fool.

I'm sure you can slither out of that with another one-liner

With FRED, one liners are all it takes. 

Imn2Paine
Sun, 09/02/07
11:17 am

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You like music from the 70s I gather.......................its time for simply being "no more Mr Nice Guy"...................democrats play nice too much, watch out for Romney and Huckabee......they can be just as nice and could take Clinton or Obama IMO...............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSvnn4ky4d8

former
Sun, 09/02/07
1:16 pm

============

Precisely why these matters need multi-lateral involvement, peace-keepers, etc. 

Notice that the "out now (and nothing else)" crowd insists Iraqis can "work things out on their own."  whatever that means, probably by killing each other - not the "liberal" our great leaders who've done our party's greatest accomplishments in history - would call a liberal position.

"CHANGING DIRECTION"

http://stangoff.com/?p=526

Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee Chair and Maryland Rep. Chris Van Hollen…

When asked about the United States invasion and occupation of Iraq, and what 2006 voters expected the Democrats to do about it, he used the term “changing direction” about 50 times in succession. Maybe Karl Rove is running their campaign, too. Repeat a line of malarkey over and over and over, in the hopes that you can bang it into the psyches of the American public as an irreducible premise.

Send this little note along to every national Democratic elected official you can find: The direction is West, all the way to the United States.

Democrats!!! You will not get away with reformulating what we want with this weasel-wording. We don’t want a “change of direction” in Iraq. We want United States armed forces OUT of Iraq… NOW… every single one of them.

Since this “changing direction” is the manipulation mantra of the campaign, and since it is a cynical attempt to stay in Iraq indefinitely, while pumping sunshine up our collective posterior (until you Democrats can get elected), every time this furtive phrase is uttered we need to call them out.

Call and response…

CALL: “…changing direction”
RESPONSE: “Bullshit!”

The problem with the war is not that it has been misdirected. It was never “winnable” under any circumstances. But more importantly, you lying, self-serving, Democratic manipulators, the bloody military occupation of Iraq is an illegal, immoral, and imperial enterprise. It cannot be transformed into something good.

You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit..

You cannot reformulate our righteous hatred of this war into “changing direction.” You will pay the price for taking us for granted. Bloody-handed, ambitious little skulkers. The death and horror mount each day while you pursue your creepy careers. You are not fighting Republicans for principles, but scheming after their jobs. You are now the main obstacle blocking the cessation of this criminality; and your goal is to contain us.

Huron John
Sun, 09/02/07
1:20 pm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Nice post...............only problem is the US has no identity anymore.........our masters in the ME and far east tell us what to do now and how to do it..........that simple really........the idiotic flag wavers still living in 1945 dont get it............

Sitka
Sun, 09/02/07
1:28 pm

===========

Nonetheless, you and John, etc. have gone so far to your self-defined  "Left" as to be in agreement with the Far Right - and they have noticed - that's why they've used it.

Nonetheless, you and John, etc. have gone so far to your self-defined  "Left" as to be in agreement with the Far Right - and they have noticed - that's why they've used it.

So says Biden's propaganda minister. But it's just garbage.

FRED needs to look around and realize that just about everbody wants immediate and full withdrawl from Iraq. So we're all "Left". 

FRED needs to look around and realize that just about everbody wants immediate and full withdrawl from Iraq. So we're all "Left".

==============

It's not everybody that says Dodd, Clinton, Biden, and Edwards are unfit to govern because of that vote.

When asked about the United States invasion and occupation of Iraq, and what 2006 voters expected the Democrats to do about it, he used the term “changing direction” about 50 times in succession.

I beginning to suspect that for many DCDems "changing direction" meant starting a new war with Iran. 

It's not everybody that says Dodd, Clinton, Biden, and Edwards are unfit to govern because of that vote.

If FRED wants to change the subject that's fine, but I've never heard NeoCons say that those Democrats aren't fit to govern because they voted to invade Iraq.

Any time I'm in disagreement with NeoCons I must be right. 

If FRED wants to change the subject that's fine, but I've never heard NeoCons say that those Democrats aren't fit to govern because they voted to invade Iraq.

================

I was talking about your agreement with Neocon on  the UN Iraqi Resolution in October 2002 as an approval of what Bush did in March 2003. 

It is you that changed the subject as to being for or against an exit plan.

YOU HAVE SAID THOSE WHO VOTED FOR THE RESOLUTION ARE NOT FIT TO GOVERN

82.

FRED from OR
Sun, 09/02/07
1:33 pm


Nonetheless, you and John, etc. have gone so far to your self-defined "Left" as to be in agreement with the Far Right - and they have noticed - that's why they've used it.
--------
Finally(!) I've found something that I can agree on with Fred for the last several month (of course, under terms definitions..., lol).

Ultimately it might be correct, imo, to assume that "Far Right" and "Far Left" are going to be "in agreement" in some (0,0) point..., lol.

All you need to do is just to think a little "further":
- "further to right" of what Ron Paul is saying
and
- "further to left" of what Howard Dean was saying.

under terms definitions = under my terms definitions

Can't avoid path which will ultimately "lead into the Rome"..., lol.

THE NEOCON AD SAYS

"Congress was right to vote for the invasion of Iraq..." (may not be the exact wording)

You say "Congress was wrong to vote for the invasion...."

The truth is that the vote was not literally for "invading Iraq"  - Invasion was a last resort.

Bush defied the Resolution by not allowing the inspectors to finish their job.  There was nothing in it about "shock and awe" 

The Resolution required President Bush's diplomatic efforts at the UN Security Council to "obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion, and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions." It authorized the United States to use military force to "defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_resolution

I was talking about your agreement with Neocon on  the UN Iraqi Resolution in October 2002 as an approval of what Bush did in March 2003.

I've never seen, read, or heard NeoCons say that. If FRED would provide a source someone might believe him. 

I think they corruptly voted with Bush. FRED thinks they stupidly did.

Is stupidity more or less disqualifying than corruption? 

It is you that changed the subject as to being for or against an exit plan.

A scheme that leaves 20% of the current troop level and has no end, isn't an exit plan. It's a reduction plan. Bush-lite, if you will. 

"YOU HAVE SAID THOSE WHO VOTED FOR THE RESOLUTION ARE NOT FIT TO GOVERN"

And I meant it. 

70.

Anni,

Hope you are still here. I started watching Christopher Hitchens on C-span 2 and didn't realize he is on for three hours -- it's still going. Very interesting guy. I bought his book I'm still reading, "God is not Great" which is interesting also.

Yes, you will be able to vote on the Amendments as anyone who is registered here can do. No vote in Florida for the Dems or Repug side primary though. Of course, you could also re-register for a party that has candidates running for the primary, then change back later.

The truth is that the vote was not literally for "invading Iraq"  - Invasion was a last resort.

Even if I were fool enough to believe they were just fools, I wouldn't be fool enough to think it qualifies them to be president.

Christopher Hitchens .....Very interesting guy.

I got bored with nazis long ago. 

Sitka, the Neocons have outsmarted you and your kind.  They are using your own despising for Democrats that voted on the Iraqi Resolution to imply that Democrats supported the invasion and occupation.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.  They say the "Left" wing agrees that 3/4  of Congress was comfortable with "shock and awe"

And your rhetoric reinforces their bullsh*t argument - so SHUT UP

Even if I were fool enough to believe they were just fools, I wouldn't be fool enough to think it qualifies them to be president

=============

Bush's deceiving the country and deciving those who voted for the UN Resolution doesn't make those who voted responsible for what Bush did.   This mess is Bush's responsibility and your sharing the blame with Democrats strengthens the Neocon case - so Shut Up.

They are good people and are more capable of governing that you are.

Real news.  Exclusive pic from Somersworth, NH 

Sitka, the Neocons have outsmarted you and your kind.

According to FRED, it's Biden and his kind they outsmarted into voting with Bush. 

....to imply that Democrats supported the invasion and occupation.

If you can remember any of them standing up at the time and saying, "WE WERE DUPED!" I sure can't. And since then they've voted for every penny Bush has demanded for occuption and corporate fraud and likely will continue. If that isn't support, then it's hypocrisy at its worst.

They say the "Left" wing agrees that 3/4  of Congress was comfortable with "shock and awe"

FRED obviously knows more about what NeoCons think and say than I do. That's probably why he supports keeping troops in Iraq.

And your rhetoric reinforces their bullsh*t argument - so SHUT UP

When SHUT UP is one's best argument, one should probably shut up himself. 

Bush's deceiving the country and deciving those who voted for the UN Resolution doesn't make those who voted responsible for what Bush did.

I'll put my trust in those who weren't deceived by Bush and the NeoCons. Only they have any credibility on Iraq and future military matters.

"so Shut Up."

Is that you? 

No, Sitka that is not I.  That's Mayme Trumble and her husband.  My trusty lap-top took the picture. 

Why is the blog suddenly freezing up Firefox?

bbl

Need to install a new ink cartridge in my printer so I can print out the rules for choosing delegates to the national democratic convention. 

No, Sitka that is not I.  That's Mayme Trumble and her husband.  My trusty lap-top took the picture. 

I saw a pic of you at D-fest, but people look different from different angles. 

In case you missed Doonesbury today, Doonsbury is talking on his radio show asking his figment of imagination this:Fun fact, okay? Since 1776, the United States has accumulated a national debt of $9 trillion, over half of which was incurred when a Bush was on watch! What a family legacy!If you throw in Reagan, fully 70% of the national debt was created under just three Republican presidents!What's more, they didn't even try to restrain spending! Out of 19 submitted subgets, only two were balanced!So here' my question, dude . . . Where did the myth of GOP fiscal responsibility come from?~~~~~~~~~~~Another whopper of our currently usual afternoon thunderstorms moving in here. bblDood 2008

100.
Sitka
Sun, 09/02/07
2:33 pm

According to FRED, it's Biden and his kind they outsmarted into voting with Bush.   If you can remember any of them standing up at the time and saying, "WE WERE DUPED!" I sure can't

=========

Democrats were not "duped"  the entire country was betrayed.  Bush's  father played by the rules but George W. and Cheney did  not.  That's the sad truth.  That doesn't make you right in your recklessness of blaming our party leaders for this mess - and giving the Neocons a thumbs-up with their ad campaign for the war.

It takes 2/3 vote in Congress to stop this occupation and funding if you don't want to abandon the troops in the field and stop the government at the same time.  Your blame game doesn't help do that any more than the Neocon ads do.

You know Biden is not for staying in Iraq, but hopes to leave the country in a peaceful situation to end a civil war and ethnic cleansing.  Not all "out now" chanters share that hope.  So who's progressive?

Biden doesn' t want to wait until we get a Democratic president to end the civil war there.  He  thinks we can do it now with the Biden-Boxer-Brownback bipartisan legislation.  You treat such attempts at ethnic peace with contempt.  

When is this cheap blog going to get PREVIEW HQ????

Happy Happy Birthday to seashell ♥

Also, Happy Birthday to donna's daughter and mary vb's daughter :-)

. . . . . . . . . . * . * . * . * .* . * . * . *. .*. * .* .* . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . ||..||..||..||..||..||..||..||..||..||..||..|| . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .(______________________________) . . . . . . . .

Dodd has excellent credentials.

He and Richardson are strongest on seeing the damage done by Bush to the Constitution and articulating what they would do about it their first day in office. Since Bush acted by executive fiat much can be undone on Inaugaration Day and they both express it.

That alone leaves me with a positive attitude towards both.

hope the move is going OK for mary vb

Democrats were not "duped"  the entire country was betrayed.

FRED recently said on another thread that Democrats were stupid to have trusted Bush.

I happen to think they were corrupt.  

But either way, they aren't fit to lead. 

You know Biden is not for staying in Iraq, but hopes to leave the country in a peaceful situation.

FRED himself posted on this thread that Biden wants to leave 20% of the current level in Iraq for who nows how long.  

You treat such attempts at ethnic peace with contempt. 

I treat all schemes which don't immediately withdraw all US troops from Iraq with contempt because I have no faith in the people putting them forward nor in the results they promise.

============================

I treat all schemes which don't immediately withdraw all US troops from Iraq with contempt because I have no faith in the people putting them forward nor in the results they promise.

============

It is easy to be extreme to the point of being narrow-minded - not always the best option

112. Smooth moving wishes to mary vb.

Welcome to listener's new granddaughter, Ivy Evelyn.

Boxes calling my name too...

Just popping in after a wonderful morning w/ Donna and Denise ~ good friends, good food, good day! Much to do...

♥'s to all

Kindness is free!

Happy Birthday seashell, maybe your blog baby namesake will give you a present today, as she is thinking about it

I still say Bush would have done the invasion with or without the UN resolution.  He did not respect the resolution in the least. 

All the UN resolution did was give him political cover, and Leftist Ideologues like Sitka continue to cooperate with the Neocon plan - in giving Bush that cover.

It is easy to be extreme to the point of being narrow-minded - not always the best option

Better than being gullible enough once again to trust "stupid" politicians who were "deceived." 

Fool me HOW many times before I'm shamed? 

I still say Bush would have done the invasion with or without the UN resolution.

America's rivals and enemies were happy to help Bush blunder into a quagmire. What excuse for Congress but stupidity or corruption?

Leftist Ideologues like Sitka continue to cooperate with the Neocon plan - in giving Bush that cover.

Those who want immediate and full withdrawl help Bush continue the occupation? Sounds like something Karl Rove would scratch in a restroom stall.

My main help is 1100 miles away, so I put a help wanted ad in the paper this week. With all the cleanup going on around here there is a labor shortage and the local largest employer has raised it's advertised wages twice in two months to $13.50 (they make you earn it with hard shifts and short breaks). They even started offering half shift jobs of four hours. I won't be able to beat that so will have to find someone who likes working outdoors. where are all those "illegals" everyone is talking about? there is a labor shortage in Iowa

anybody looking for a job with occasional flying animal excrement? (duck and cover if a cow is about to cough)

If you are a regular here you are used to it 

Sitka
Sun, 09/02/07
3:12 pm

============

You take the heat off Bush when you blame Dodd, Biden, Clinton and Edward for for the invasion-occupation, by voting on the UN Resolution vote.

Neocons are doing exactly the same thing as you - in their ad campaign

The UN inspectors were not finished - there was no diplomatic attempt between Bush and Saddam Hussein - Bush was intent on invading Iraq - the whole "Resolution" thing was a Charade

There are even some reports that Saddam Hussein was making 11th hour attempts to reach Bush for  compromises on his stalwarting inspections - Bush would not take the call.

Those who want immediate and full withdrawl help Bush continue the occupation? Sounds like something Karl Rove would scratch in a restroom stall.

==========

I think you are starting to get it - checkmate

You take the heat off Bush when you blame Dodd, Biden, Clinton and Edward for for the invasion-occupation

Excusemongering at its worst. 

One doesn't put heat onto Bush by taking it off those who collaborated with him.

The UN inspectors were not finished - there was no diplomatic attempt between Bush and Saddam Hussein - Bush was intent on invading Iraq - the whole "Resolution" thing was a Charade

Everybody but the foolish knew that at the time. The corrupt knew and went along.

I think you are starting to get it - checkmate

I've gotten it all along -- Biden (along with other Democrats) is for the ongoing occupation of Iraq. If that isn't what NeoCons want, then what is?

Everybody but the foolish knew that at the time. The corrupt knew and went along.

========

That's revisionist. The country was united.  The world supported the USA.   Most who voted against the UN Resolution probably thought the language was too broad (too their credit) - Bush's father was a good person and kept his word to the UN with Desert Storm - few would imagine he could defy his own father's integrity.

In all fairness, there were some who knew enough to never trust George W. Bush in any way - regardless of 9/11.  They were not the only people against the invasion.

In your ignorance you ignore all these extenuating circumstances and go to extremes in your condemnation.  The Neocons are now using your blanket "condemnation" as blanket "approval" for the status quo.

You still don't get it, do you ?

I've gotten it all along -- Biden (along with other Democrats) is for the ongoing occupation of Iraq.

========

Last January the Biden-Levin legislation would have had all COMBAT troops out by Spring 2008.

You still don't get it, do you ?

(That was Newt Gingrich's favorite line.) 

I got it then. I get it now. Those who didn't get it then can't be trusted to get it now or next time. 

There are plenty of Democrats and others who got. Theirs should be the voices people heed now, not those of the discredited. 

(That was Newt Gingrich's favorite line.)

========

Big deal

Phil and Thankful, thank you for the birthday wishes.  A gift from "Seashell?"  Is she preggers?  A baby seashell or maybe a baby seacrab or seahorse?  Seaweed?

Wow, was that cake good.  My favorite!  Everybody, have a piece or two!  Take out is available.

Big deal

It seemed appropriate since FRED was accusing others of talking like Republicans. The obvious difference is that he actually quotes them. 

Fred said: "
I still say Bush would have done the invasion with or without the UN resolution. He did not respect the resolution in the least."

Not sure I agree. If that were the case then an Iraq war resolution would not have been needed. Bush needed the blessing from Congress and he got it. A lot of folks much smarter then Kerry, Biden and Edwards knew Bush’s reasons for invading Iraq were shams. For instance, the National Council of Churches was one of many religious groips to oppose the war. The Catholic Church was against the war. The MSM did not allow opposition messages to be heard. Let’s stop with the nonsense that they were forcing Sadaam to allow inspectors. If that wree the case, then why have a war authorization tied to it?
Congress gave up its power to go to war and there is no way that power can be rescinded.
If Biden wants us to believe his 27 years in Congress gives him an edge in foreign policy then why did he vote for the authorization. Why did he not insist the war authorization be taken off the bill?
Kerry gave a tortured reasoning for the vote but he saw this as power a President would want. He saw himself as President Kerry and he went along with it.
Edwards’s reasoning was the most insidious. His political advisor said it would be good politics. I don’t care about his populist message or his born in a log cabin speech. Someone with so little integrity as him must never get the nomination.

As a sometime adjunct finance professor, the hardest task is to make the course work relevant. This is not a big problem in finance with all the derivates and ethics scandals occurring. Students who show up expecting something wonderful to happen are going to be disappointed. Students who are engaged get something out of it. I teach out of a text book but course evaluation comes out of scenarios developed as part of the class. The text book is for-reference only. I don’t like team exercises but prefer an individual real-world approach. I say somewhat because there is only so much time allocated to the class and the 2 hours of homework per class hour per week allowed. I treat it as a long running seminar with a grade attached.

I expect college to reinforce critical thinking skills along with knowledge in what ever major is being perused. As someone who has hired people, I look at college transcripts and course work for fresh-outs. For someone with three years or more experience, I look at work history. The poor job market adds a difficult dynamic. Suppose someone has been out of school for five years but has very little work experience? It depends what they were doing and the area they lived in. I live in Michigan where the economy is about as bad as it gets. Penalizing people for struggling is cruel so many factors must be considered.

Happy, Happy birthday Seashell. Have a fun day.

Last January the Biden-Levin legislation would have had all COMBAT troops out by Spring 2008.

This isn't last January. Earlier this thread FRED stated Biden wiould leave 20% of the current troop level. 150,000x.2=30,000.

That is not full withdrawl.  

Yes Sea, happy Bday!

Happy birthday seashell...
Many happy returns

hmmm..that was an odd addition...is it returns or reruns?
At my age, reruns..

Edwards’s reasoning was the most insidious. His political advisor said it would be good politics. I don’t care about his populist message or his born in a log cabin speech. Someone with so little integrity as him must never get the nomination.

I try not to get into comparing the bad, but Democrats don't come any worse. 

Thanks Sitka and audrey! 

Thanks Sitka and audrey!  

Can we cut the cake now?

is that cake made of.. soap ?

Thanks Sitla for keeping those who need entertaining entertained.

However, while I agree that there's a lot of corruption in our government, on all levels, I think we need to be more specific about what that means.  I judge a person to be corrupt when they've taken on a responsibility to act in one person's or groups interest and then act contrary to what that interest is.

Now, there are obviously some Americans who really like the idea of bashing in the heads of people--here at home and overseas.  The question is whether their interest is to be represented and on what condition?  I raise that question because a significant proportion of our industrial enterprise and a concommitant significant number of our work-force are now engaged in the production of armaments and their delivery systems.  Is it corrupt of a politician to represent their interests?  Like everything else that isn't used, armaments that simply sit in storage or delivery vehicles that are moth-balled and don't need to be replaced act as a significant drag on the economy.  So, how do we transition to a civilian economy (a question that hasn't been properly addressed since the end of World War II, and what tasks do we assign to the workers who are displaced.

Clinton had an opportunity to address that but he was too busy with other things.  So, the Pentagon, left to its own devices, just prepared for another war.  AND DOESN'T THAT RING A BELL? 

dog soldier

Bill Richardson articulates a position very near yours. Do you support him?

Edwards has recognized his mistake. Biden isn't as clear about recognizing his vote as a blunder. Admitting you have made a mistake takes a bigger person that the current occupant and that is half our current problem or more. 

Fred said: "
I still say Bush would have done the invasion with or without the UN resolution. He did not respect the resolution in the least."

Not sure I agree. If that were the case then an Iraq war resolution would not have been needed. Bush needed the blessing from Congress and he got it.

============

Bush had the blessing of Congress for UN inspectors to inspect Iraq - IT WAS NOT A BLESSING FOR THE INVASION.  It is hard to imagine Saddam allowing the inspectors in, without the threat of military force, so that made sense.

Bush started out by acting like his father with the UN - it was a brilliantly-evil  move, for political cover, and Neocons are still using that cover, but we all see where Bush made the "detour." 

Many, many, people who were for the resolution were against the "detour."

Like the church's I was against the invasion - that I distinctly remember.  But you are falling into the same trap of identifying the Resolution with The Invasion.  They were not one in the same.  The only thing that made them the same was George W.'s deception and "detour" and propagating his falsely-claimed  "authority."

I say he would have invaded anyway.  There is nothing in the way he treated the inspectors and how the neocons denigrated the inspector's opinions to indicate anything otherwise.  Anyone who thinks George Bush had too much integrity to invade without cover is naive.  He would have come up with another trick.

Edwards has recognized his mistake.

I suspect he's just going with the polls again.

Thanks Sitla for keeping those who need entertaining entertained.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

I favor coloring books.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Michigan's economy suffers from the same malaise as other areas where manufacturing has been outsourced but Michigan mirrors the White House with the Auto maker CEO's refusing to admit they are making a mistake(building dinosaur fuel hogs) 

I judge a person to be corrupt when they've taken on a responsibility to act in one person's or groups interest and then act contrary to what that interest is.

That applies to Democrats who voted with Bush not just on Iraq, but other odius aspects of his agenda as well.

Clinton had an opportunity to address that but he was too busy with other things.  So, the Pentagon, left to its own devices, just prepared for another war.  AND DOESN'T THAT RING A BELL?

I've come to the conclusion that being constantly prepared for war invites it. 

I suspect he's just going with the polls again.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

or is in touch with the people

Phil, is it OK if I ask one more time how FL will choose its delegates if FL's primary isn't recognized?

If you don't have the answer or don't want to I won't ask anymore. 

If America elects another stubborn President who will not admit he is wrong they deserve whatever fate befalls them.

or is in touch with the people

It's easy to be in touch with the people when you let polls tell you what to say to them. 

HAPPY BIRTHDAY SEASHELL!!!!!

Phil -- you are too funny in your 'help wanted' ad above. Is there a comm coll nearby where you can advertise?

Joan - thx for voting info - now I have to figure out what I'm voting for on amendments.

Everyone, if you haven't seen Lives of Others, rent it first, but after that go to http://www.filmconnection.org and borrow FREE Crop Circles, the Quest for Truth. This movie is about 1/2 hour too long, but otherwise is just great and comes to the conclusion that is definitely IS NOT hoaxes. Best concepts: the relationship btw crop circles and fractals; the idea that the circles are the remains of the movement of something in one of the other eleven dimensions we can't ken (like the wake behind a boat); and -- best of all -- the crop circles themselves -- they are breathtakingly beautiful.

If America elects another stubborn President who will not admit he is wrong they deserve whatever fate befalls them.

Better to choose one who wasn't wrong at all. That way we don't have to play mind games about why and can have more confidence in that person. 

Also Joan that bit about the Bushes causing so much of the debt -- the Dems should put that prominently in their campaign literature -- (at 107. I think)

Thanks Sitla for keeping those who need entertaining entertained.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

I favor coloring books.

Ones where you get to color whichever candidate you prefer whatever colors you want. 

dog soldier

Bill Richardson articulates a position very near yours. Do you support him?

=============

Is there any public statement before the authorization vote where Richardson is on record as being against it.? 

 He was very close to the Clintons and it seems incongruent to think Hillary would vote for the authorization against his (implying  to be at the time) his better judgement, with his experience in the UN etc.

BILL RICHARDSON: Well, the message that was very clear, Margaret, and that was that every member of the Security Council, including France and Russia and China, that had abstained on an Iraqi resolution some 10 days ago, are now united in sending an unmistakable message to Iraq. The key was the vote, fifteen to nothing, unity in the Security Council. It's a strong resolution. It's not just the condemnation and having Iraq returned to having full U.N. inspection activity, but also there was language that said firm intention to take certain measures unless there's compliance. There was also strong travel restrictions.

I think the message is very clear to Iraq that it now has the whole Security Council, the United Nations saying to them, you have to back off, you have to restore UNSCOM, the U.N. inspection team, you have to start behaving, and lastly that there are going to be consequences unless you do that.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/july-dec97/iraq_11-12.html

Phil, is it OK if I ask one more time how FL will choose its delegates if FL's primary isn't recognized?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Iowa doesn't choose its delegates at the caucuses. Delegates are individual people who are elected in most states by whatever the gathering is called where representatives from the Party meet to elect party leadership of other levels like District or State Central Committees or the Presidential Elector. Most have Congressional District Conventions, some wait til State Conventions, those Party representatives are all elected in a democratic fashion so as to theoretically represent the people of their area, but as we all know networks and affliations play a role.

Remember delegates to the National Convention of the Democratic Party will in all cases represent Democrats.

There are a dozen ways Florida could elect delegates to Denver and do it within party rules if they do it after Feb. 5th.

FRED is coming dangerously close to criticizing a Democrat.

NEWSMAKER: AMBASSADOR RICHARDSONNovember 12, 1997NEWSHOUR TRANSCRIPT

BILL RICHARDSON

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

after which Saddam destroyed his weapons and let inspectors in, proving diplomacy can work

after which Saddam destroyed his weapons and let inspectors in, proving diplomacy can work

The final lesson turned out to be, never trust the US or UN. 

I think it is clear that Saddam wanted the Iranians and Kurds to think he still had chemical weapons even after he destroyed them for the UN and that was his downfall because he then made the lie possible.

I'd better check on seashell.

bbl

The country was united.  The world supported the USA.  

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Fred,

Thats what has been orchestrated by the media and phoney politicians, and maybe true to a certain point...................but alot of the world and many of us simply said, "well it was coming sooner or later".............

the world, and true historians realized that a totally demented foreign policy like ours in particular to the ME was bound to force a response somewhere at sometime............there were also alot of anti American peoples dancing in the streets after 911 too.............maybe for the first time in their lives they saw the worlds biggest arms producer and antagonists to their own peoples finally get a  dose of what they have had to live with for generations now...............

So, i dont buy this that the ENTIRE world was with us after 911..............many civilized nations were with us, but at the same time under their breaths were thinling maybe we got what we deserved after all these years..............

that was his downfall because he then made the lie possible.

What made the lie possible was the desire to believe. 

after which Saddam destroyed his weapons and let inspectors in, proving diplomacy can work

=========

"or else" diplomacy? that's a laugh - not much more/less "diplomatic" than Bush at the time frame - IMO

Michael Ellis
Sun, 09/02/07
5:33 pm

===========

Your points are well-taken. I was speaking in relative abstract terms - not absolutes.  But there was support and sympathy even from Iran.

One thing about Biden is that he is honest.  He never claimed to be perfect, but he is not a political chamelion - what you see is what you get.

Thank you dog soldier and annilow.  It's a great day so far.

Sitka, a soap cake?  Well, I certainly will be clean for 1,247& 1/3 years.  LOL  Thank you for the comic relief.

I'm with Phil about Edwards being truly sorry for his mistake.  At least he admits he made on.  So altho I like the fact that Elizabeth is speaking her mind, I'm still leery of him.  And yes, he could go the way we don't like if elected, but I sense that Elizabeth would keep him from going astray.

Dodd is becoming more appealing and I can see a

Gore/Dodd presidency. 

One thing about Biden is that he is honest.

.....as an arctic winter's day is long.

.....as an arctic winter's day is long

========

Cute, Sitka, but your analogy is quite apropriate.  A dark artic day would seem longer.

Biden's had a lot of personal loss in his life.  He didn't come thru it unscathed and he, IMO, also sounds to me like a man who has little or nothing to lose. 

OTOH, clinton and obama are taking themselves far too seriously.  They actually think they matter, when in reality the internat'l corps are running the world.

"You have to wear the world like a light garment."

(Can't remember who said this) 

I thought we were finished with the far left and far right nonsense when Oler left.

Alas..................................

And of course the definer of left and right always puts himself squarely in the Center.

Fact is of course, that Clinton, Obama, and Biden are far to the right of center--in there with the DLC DINOs.

Biden, Edwards, and Clinton, each voted for Bush's 2001 bankruptcy law.

Never mind again? 

Cute, Sitka, but your analogy is quite apropriate.

Of course since, like Biden's honesty, arctic winter days are short or non-existent. It's the nights that are long. 

Hear ye, Hear ye, thar's a new thread complete with Maher.

Sitka
Sun, 09/02/07
6:02 pm

============

I hope they voted for it because it included many of their amendments and suggestions in the end.  These people are working for us, Sitka.  Some rich people were getting away with murder in bankruptcy.  We have yet to get some feedback about whether this bill hurts the poor and middle class as much as the original proposal may have, before Democrat cleaned it up.

I notice you never talk about how educational loans are still not even eligible for regular but have to through an adversarial proceeding where the burden is on the victim to prove "undue hardship and inability to repay them.  They are the easiest unsecured loans to get.  Schools call them "awards" - what a travesty.

157.

I agree Anni. The $9 trillion dollar debt belongs almost exclusively now to the Repugs and Dems need to exploit that. If they don't, we should help them will letter to the editors -- my favorite weapon.

I watched the rerun of Tim Johnson's welcome home party from this past week. He was wheeled out in a wheelchair but stood up at the poduim to make his speech to adoring, screaming, yelling supporters.

Johnson's speech was better than I expected and still has that sly sense of humor. He is rehabbing that and the walking and of course has the best care possible in U.S.

The doctor's have always said his mind was never affected in any way and that was obvious too. He will be back in the Senate this week with all the other senators.

I believe when people go through bankruptcy;  the government gives the bank a tax credit  on half of what they lost.  When rich big spenders go bankrupt, this adds up to a huge burden on the taxpayer.

The real problem is health care.  Half of those who go bankrupt do so from medical expense uninsured or under-insured (under-covered or not covered)  Solve this problem and mostly  the only people facing bankruptcy are those buttering their own bread, or the poor, who are not effected by this law, as I understand.

My biggest  complaint about the bankruptcy law is that there should have been more restrictions on marketing cards and regulation of interest and fees.  We'll need to wait for a Democratic President for that, I guess.

I thought we were finished with the far left and far right nonsense when Oler left.

Alas.........

===============

Maybe if you and Sitka left, it would be gone completely.  There are extremist at both ends.  Do you deny that?

I hope they voted for it because it included many of their amendments and suggestions in the end.  These people are working for us, Sitka.

FRED may be a corporation, but I'm not. 

Gimme a "D"

Gimme an "L"

Gimme  a "C"

What's it spell?

FRED's Democratic Party! 

There are extremist at both ends.

Regardless of what FRED is selling, he's an extremist for it. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12604696@N08/?deleted=1299411920

Sitka 183:

 For the United States to be able to get out of the REPUBLICAN Bush War in Iraq, the REPUBLICAN LITE NEW FAUX-LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP COUNCIL, DLC, that COOPERATES to keep the United States in the war, must be unmasked for the REPUBLICAN RIGHT WING EXTREME ORGANIZATION that it is. Here is some websites that unmask the DLC:

UNMASKING THE Democratic Leadership Council, DLC:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-goff/unmasking-the-dlc_b_39287.html

Democratic Leadership "Weaselship" Council, DLC Information
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1463

THE REPUBLICAN/DLC PROJECT FOR THE NEW AMERICAN CENTURY:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Official Website for the DLC - NEW DEMOCRAT/REPUBLICAN LITE NEW LIBERAL MOVEMENT:
http://www.ndol.org This IS the DLC's website. Be sure and open this site because Hilary Clinton and Bill Clinton are front and center with their REPUBLICAN LITE NEW FAUX-LIBERAL PROPAGANDA that is against the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION.

The following is an alphabetical list of some members of the DLC, if you are unsure as to whether your Senator, Representative, Governor or Mayor, is of the DLC, then use their names and SEARCH this site to find out if they are members of the DLC. There are only a few democratic members in Congress who haven't been led to the autocratic RIGHT against the best interest of the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION:

http://www.nndb.com/group/269/000093987/

Name-Occupation Birth
Brian Baird-Politician 7-Mar-1956 Congressman, Washington 3rd
Max Baucus-Politician 11-Dec-1941 US Senator, Montana
Evan Bayh-Politician 26-Dec-1955 US Senator, Indiana
Shelley Berkley-Politician 20-Jan-1951 Congresswoman, Nevada 1st
David L. Boren-Politician 21-Apr-1941 Governor & Senator, Oklahoma
John Breaux-Politician 1-Mar-1944 US Senator, Louisiana,1987-2005
Maria Cantwell-Politician 13-Oct-1958 US Senator, Washington
Lois Capps-Politician 10-Jan-1938 Congresswoman, California 23rd
Russ Carnahan-Politician 10-Jul-1958 Congressman, Missouri 3rd
Thomas Carper-Politician 23-Jan-1947 US Senator, Delaware
Ed Case-Politician 27-Sep-1952 Congressman, Hawaii 2nd
Ben Chandler-Politician 12-Sep-1959 Congressman, Kentucky 6th
Bill Clinton-Head of State 19-Aug-1946 42nd US President,1993-2001
Hillary Clinton-First Lady 26-Oct-1947 US Senator, New York
Kent Conrad-Politician 12-Mar-1948 US Senator, North Dakota
Bud Cramer-Politician 22-Aug-1947 Congressman, Alabama 5th
Joseph Crowley-Politician 16-Mar-1962 Congressman, New York 7th
Artur Davis-Politician 9-Apr-1967 Congressman, Alabama 7th
Jim Davis-Politician 11-Oct-1957 Congressman, Florida 11th
Susan Davis-Politician 13-Apr-1944 Congresswoman, California 53rd
Cal Dooley-Politician 11-Jan-1954 Congressman,California,1991-2005
Byron Dorgan-Politician 14-May-1942 US Senator, North Dakota
John Edwards-Politician 10-Jun-1953 2004 Vice Presidential candidate
Rahm Emanuel-Politician 29-Nov-1959 Congressman, Illinois 5th
Eliot Engel-Politician 18-Feb-1947 Congressman, New York 17th
Bob Etheridge-Politician 7-Aug-1941 Congressman, North Carolina 2nd
Dianne Feinstein-Politician 22-Jun-1933 US Senator, California
Harold Ford-Politician 11-May-1970 Congressman,Tennessee,1997-07
Dick Gephardt-Politician 31-Jan-1941 Congressman, Missouri, 1977-2005
Al Gore-Politician 31-Mar-1948 US Vice President under Clinton
Bob Graham-Politician 9-Nov-1936 US Senator, Florida
Jane Harman-Politician 28-Jun-1945 Congresswoman, California 36th
Brian Higgins-Politician 6-Oct-1959 Congressman, New York 27th
Rush Holt-Politician 15-Oct-1948 Congressman, New Jersey 12th
Darlene Hooley-Politician 4-Apr-1939 Congresswoman, Oregon 5th
Jay Inslee-Politician 9-Feb-1951 Congressman, Washington 1st
Steve Israel-Politician 30-May-1958 Congressman, New York 2nd
Tim Johnson-Politician 28-Dec-1946 US Senator, South Dakota
Bob Kerrey-Politician 27-Aug-1943 Governor and Senator, Nebraska
John Kerry-Politician 11-Dec-1943 US Senator, Massachusetts
Ron Kind-Politician 16-Mar-1963 Congressman, Wisconsin 3rd
Herb Kohl-Politician 7-Feb-1935 US Senator, Wisconsin
Mary Landrieu-Politician 23-Nov-1955 US Senator, Louisiana
Rick Larsen-Politician 15-Jun-1965 Congressman, Washington 2nd
John Larson-Politician 22-Jul-1948 Congressman, Connecticut 1st
Joseph Lieberman-Politician 24-Feb-1942 US Senator, Connecticut
Blanche Lincoln-Politician 30-Sep-1960 US Senator, Arkansas
Zoe Lofgren-Politician 21-Dec-1947 Congresswoman,California 16th 1995-
Terry McAuliffe-Politician 1957 Clinton's Chairman of the DNC
Carolyn McCarthy-Politician 5-Jan-1944 Congresswoman, New York 4th
Mike McIntyre-Politician 6-Aug-1956 Congressman, North Carolina 7th
Mack McLarty-Government 1946 Clinton's Chief of Staff
Gregory Meeks-Politician 25-Sep-1953 Congressman, New York 6th
Juanita Millender-McDonald 7-Sep-1938 Congresswoman, California, 1996-2007
Dennis Moore-Politician 8-Nov-1945 Congressman, Kansas 3rd
Jim Moran-Politician 16-May-1945 Congressman, Virginia 8th
Ben Nelson-Politician 17-May-1941 US Senator, Nebraska
Bill Nelson-Politician 29-Sep-1942 US Senator, Florida
Gavin Newsom-Politician 10-Oct-1967 Mayor of San Francisco
Sam Nunn-Politician 8-Sep-1938 US Senator, Georgia, 1972-97
Nancy Pelosi-Politician 26-Mar-1940 Speaker of House of Representatives
David Price-Politician 17-Aug-1940 Congressman, North Carolina 4th
Mark Pryor-Politician 10-Jan-1963 US Senator, Arkansas
Harry Reid-Politician 02-Dec-1939 US Senate Majority Leader
Chuck Robb-Politician 26-Jun-1939 US Senator, Virginia, 1989-2001
Timothy J. Roemer-Politician 30-Oct-1956 9-11 Commission member
Loretta Sanchez-Politician 7-Jan-1960 Congresswoman, California 47th
Stephanie Herseth Sandlin-Politician3-Dec-1970 Congresswoman, South Dakota
Adam Schiff-Politician 22-Jun-1960 Congressman, California 29th
Allyson Schwartz-Politician 3-Oct-1948 Congresswoman, Pennsylvania 13th
David Scott-Politician 27-Jun-1946 Congressman, Georgia 13th
Adam Smith-Politician 15-Jun-1965 Congressman, Washington 9th
Debbie Stabenow-Politician 29-Apr-1950 US Senator, Michigan
John Tanner-Politician 22-Sep-1944 Congressman, Tennessee 8th
Ellen Tauscher-Politician 15-Nov-1951 Congresswoman, California 10th
Tom Udall-Politician 18-May-1948 Congressman, New Mexico 3rd
Anthony A. Williams-Politician 28-Jul-1951 Mayor of Washington, DC 1999-
David Wu-Politician 8-Apr-1955 Congressman, Oregon 1st

http://www.nndb.com/group/269/000093987/