Whos on first?

Deans are on first!

IN NEW ORLEANS, LOUISIANA

THE FEDERAL STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT SHOULD SUBSIDIZE, SUPPORT, AND IMPLEMENT  A PROGRAM OF ELEVATED CONCRETE PLATFORMS ABOVE THE FLOOD LINE THAT WOULD SERVE AS FOUNDATIONS FOR NEW HOMES

Could you speak up? We're hard of hearing.

Could you speak up? We're hard of hearing.

Sure, no problemo.  How's this?

BIDEN:

 ".....Some of my other democratic colleagues, including Senators Obama and Dodd and Governor Richardson, seem to be coming around to that reality. Each has spoken in positive terms about my plan to end the war in Iraq by separating the warring factions and helping Iraqis build a decentralized, federal system that gives its major groups control over the fabric of their daily lives, as we did in Bosnia. But they say they are reluctant to “impose” a political settlement on the Iraqis. In fact, my plan “imposes” nothing on the Iraqis; rather, it would implement what is already in their constitution and laws. The Iraqi constitution establishes a decentralized, federal system in Iraq, with extensive powers for the regions and limited powers for the central government. The Iraqi parliament passed legislation, which takes effect early next year, to implement those provisions of the constitution. If my opponents would read the constitution and Iraq’s laws, their concern about fully backing my plan would vanish. I call on them to do so, and to support the Biden-Boxer-Brownback legislation, which would force the Bush Administration to change policy and support the Iraqi Constitution."

http://blog.thehill.com/2007/08/23/like-bush-some-of-my-democratic-colleagues-cling-to-flawed-premise-sen-joe-biden/

READ THE PLAN

http://planforiraq.com/download

http://planforiraq.com/documents/pfi.pdf

Phil Specht
Thu, 08/30/07
1:05 pm

Phil, the move by the Florida politicians and leadership is a move to secure Hillary's nomination.  This became a serious issue as it is becoming more serious in Iowa and New Hampshire.  If Anyone other than HRC were to win either of these states it could seriously hurt Clinton.  But to have a state like Florida, which will be won by Clinton in a runaway as all of the influential members of the Party are Clintonistas, be in a position to put her back in front and basically secure the nomination before it goes any further.

But all of this would be a non-issue if two things were to happen.  First, that voters were actually able to think for themselves and stop acting like lemmings after the first contests.  Second, that the Party leaders at the local level actually stop feeding this mentality and truly encouraged the primary voters to carefully consider the candidates before making their decision. I am almost willing to bet by the time the race reaches states after the second week, most voters probably couldn't name most of the candidates.

When did this mentatlity shift?  Why is there such a desperation to have a nominee?

The Florida Democratic Party is screwed up, period.  It is run by sycophants who care little about the membership and mostly about themselves.  The Chair of the Party is a complete failure.  The County leadership are ruthless bastards who will destroy any who oppose them (even as a number of them are busy being indicted).  I left the Party after 2004 and was going to go back for this primary season but I think I'll just sit it out.  My candidate, Dodd, will probably not even make to the primary/beauty pageant.  Speaking of pageants, I'm willing to bet that the leaders of the FDP, starting with BIll Nelson, are among those individuals that can't identify the United States on a map.

Speaking of infomercials.

All this useless squabbling about which state is to be first could be resolved quite easily by setting a date and letting states decide when to have their primaries/caucuses after it. The current mess is a direct result of the old system of manipulation  falling apart.

Several here have posted their own new systems, but they're complicated and just invite different forms of abuse. Keep it simple, keep it fair.

But all of this would be a non-issue if two things were to happen.  First, that voters were actually able to think for themselves and stop acting like lemmings after the first contests.  Second, that the Party leaders at the local level actually stop feeding this mentality and truly encouraged the primary voters to carefully consider the candidates before making their decision.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

couldn't agree more

Speaking of infomercials

=================

At least you are learning something - and what you can be FOR instead of what to be AGAINST

What's the one thing I like about Hillary? There aren't constantly people on this blog trying to sell her to me as there are the others.

what you can be FOR instead of what to be AGAINST

I'm for a lot. I just don't see much of it in Biden and the other NeoDems.

And it's actually counterproductive to feel you have to be FOR something or someone even if it stinks. 

Paz Peace
Thu, 08/30/07
1:35 pm

========

I know a lot of votes in recent years comes from snowbirds and retirees from the Northeast.  Is the Democratic Party traditionally influenced  in Florida from the days of the old South or does this migration of Northerners dominate the Party these days?

all I ask of a voter in my alternative system is that you request a primary ballot and vote it

all I ask of a voter in my alternative system is that you request a primary ballot and vote it

What gives you the right to ask -- or demand --  anything?

NeoDems?

Being so cynically critical about elder Democratic Statespeople,

  who have survived the Reagan  Revolution and Neocon  Coup, with very respectable liberal voting records (despite the anomalies of 9/11,)

makes you the Neo Dem 

Neo Dem = New Democrat

That's what they call themselves. But they're really Rockefellar Republicans who can't get a job in the GOP these days. 

I'm probably making a mistake in sharing the inner workings of how an all absentee system would work under party rules to fairly give every voter the same representation which in theory is provided by the current system which allocates delegates according to number of Democratic votes in the past election so that the nominating convention in theory gives every party member the exact same say in who the nominee will be.

so for the Sitka's out there

my proposal is a voter requests a ballot, by mail, on line, in person, or by phone, and after the registration is checked for party affliation a ballot is sent with an affidavid envelope (a voter registration card can accompany the request)

the return envelope is to the Congressional Central Committee of 435 Districts who count the votes

for a voter three steps ... request the ballot, vote in the comfort of your home, return the ballot

What gives you the right to ask -- or demand --  anything?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There cannot be a nominee of a Party, without a nomination process.

That process is determined by rules committees. no rules no party no nominee no name on the ballot

18.

Deaniac in GA
Thu, 08/30/07
12:08 pm

Sorry, the release I received didn't have a link.

my proposal is a voter requests a ballot, by mail, on line, in person, or by phone, and after the registration is checked for party affliation a ballot is sent with an affidavid envelope (a voter registration card can accompany the request)

I'm registered Independent and in my state, AZ, I can choose which party's primary to vote in. I like that and think the best candidate will be chosen by inviting as many as possible to participate in a party's primary rather than restricting access to insiders. And since my tax dollars pay for the primaries I should get to participate as I choose. 

Getting rid of the "systems" and let the people participate as easily as possible and know their votes mean something is  one way of getting better government. 

Neo Dem = New Democrat

That's what they call themselves. But they're really Rockefellar Republicans who can't get a job in the GOP these days. 

============

Jesus was crucified for better jokes than that

I'm convinced that the rules for allocating delegates for the nominating convention give equal say to all democratic voters equally right now as they stand today, in theory. That current rules follow the party constitution and by-laws.

17.

I never heard Biden call himself that - Sitka provide a link or I am compelled to call you one of the worst gossip mongers  on this blog.

<>There cannot be a nominee of a Party, without a nomination process. That process is determined by rules committees. no rules no party no nominee no name on the ballot

The fewer rules the better as they're most often used by corrupt insiders to manipulate voters and the process.

let the people participate as easily as possible

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1. Request a ballot

2. Vote

3. Return the ballot

requesting a patry's primary ballot makes one a member of that party, sorry, but there is no such thing as an independent that casts a primary vote

you can honestly be a member, or momentarily pretend to be one, search your own heart on that one

the Party Party's primary ballot:

o : more taste

o : less filling

, I can choose which party's primary to vote in. I like that ....Getting rid of the "systems" and let the people participate as easily as possible and know their votes mean something is  one way of getting better government.

=============

It also leaves the system open for manipulation.  You need rules (i.e. Republicans that vote in a Dem primary should be restricted from  voting in the Repub primary) Do you have rules?

On March 15, 2005 Senator Joseph Biden (D - Del.) received the Democratic Leadership Council's Harry S. Truman Award.

If Biden isn't a NeoDem -- or want to be considered one -- he should be more careful of the company he keeps. 

It also leaves the system open for manipulation.  You need rules (i.e. Republicans that vote in a Dem primary should be restricted from  voting in the Repub primary) Do you have rules?

Repos and Dems can only vote in their own primaries. Indys can choose which.

It would suit me fine to let everybody vote in each party's primary since taxpayers foot the bill. 

requesting a patry's primary ballot makes one a member of that party, sorry, but there is no such thing as an independent that casts a primary vote

That's just empty rhetoric. 

1. Request a ballot

2. Vote

3. Return the ballot

That's what we already do. But I get the idea you want to restrict it to party members and make it more difficult.. 

That's what we already do. But I get the idea you want to restrict it to party members and make it more difficult.. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I can't believe AZ lets people vote in both Republican and Democratic primaries. You have to chose a party don't you?

I can't believe AZ lets people vote in both Republican and Democratic primaries. You have to chose a party don't you?

Repos and Dems can only vote in their own primaries. Indys can choose which (but not both).

It would suit me fine to let everybody vote in each party's primary since taxpayers foot the bill.

I tried a "wide stance" in the privacy of my own bathroom. It's pretty uncomfortable, and not conducive to the purpose of sitting there!

It was very bizarre to see Pat Buchanan say yesterday that Craig did nothing wrong in looking for sex in a public restroom. Made me wonder if Pat was trying innoculate himself for when's he caught doing it.

LARRY CRAIG ON THE SEAT

http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp08302007.html

The Jeff Gannon Affair drew our attention to the fact that a male prostitute can sleep over at the White House on multiple occasions. The Mark Foley Affair alerted us to the phenomenon of conservative Republican lawmakers' passion for teenage pageboys. The Ted Haggard Scandal showed us that conservative Republican preachers who sermonize against gay rights can smolder with lust for man-to-man action. The arrest of Republican Florida State Rep. Bob Allen at a park in Central Florida, showed us that the coauthor of a recent public lewdness bill can lewdly solicit sex from an undercover male cop. And now, the Larry Craig Scandal draws our attention to the phenomenon of conservative Republican lawmakers firmly opposed to gay rights getting off on impersonal anonymous homo-sex in men's room toilet stalls.

It looks like two more conservative "family values" Republican senators may be "outed" soon, by Mike Rogers, the same blogger who originally fingered Craig. The gay activist claims that South Carolina Sen. Lindsay Graham is gay. More interestingly, he claims that, "Republican Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell's quick expulsion from the Army---for fondling a private's privates---is finally being discussed in Kentucky." He notes that McConnell, discharged after just 10 days in the Army in 1967, "has consistently prevented anyone from seeing his military discharge papers" but a Freedom of Information suit may bring them to light.

since taxpayers foot the bill.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In Iowa the two Party costs are paid for by each Party on caucus night and taxpayers don't foot the bill

sticking the taxpayers for deciding local candidates is fair, but I don't know how the Presidential nomination process should work, although I can see how them tagging along on an already scheduled primary saves costs for the party

I guess the speech from Sen. Larry Craig (R-Idaho) wasn’t persuasive; the long knives are out.

Idaho Sen. Larry Craig’s political support eroded significantly Wednesday when three fellow Republicans in Congress called for his resignation and party leaders pushed him from senior committee posts in the Senate.

Hoekstra was the first to make the call, issuing a statement two hours ago that said Craig’s “conduct throughout this matter has been inappropriate for a U.S. senator.” Then Coleman said in a written statement, “Senator Craig pled guilty to a crime involving conduct unbecoming a senator.” Not satisfied with a press release, McCain went on CNN to announce his belief that Craig “should resign” and explain why.

And what about Craig? What’s he said today? Not too much, but a) legal experts seem to believe he’s going to have a very tough time reversing his guilty plea; and b) he’s already losing his grip on power in the Senate.

It looks like Craig may soon have to decide to spend more time with his family.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/

It looks like two more conservative "family values" Republican senators may be "outed" soon

If only they had stuck with good old "family values" female prostitutes -- as Larry Vittner (R-LA) did -- they would be applauded by their caucus -- as Vittner was when he was outed.

I've seen way too many tracking polls and how they jump back and forth in 24 hours to like the idea of a national same day stampede (primary) for every name on every ballot in the country, but if there were April sometime would make the most sense. Too bad the Idaho election isn't next week though.

bbl

paz peace, my kind of Floridian.    A big smilie to you.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Thurman the lobbyist and Nelson the Dino...what a pair.  Both so cozy with the Republicans.

I want a change in primaries, but I want honesty also.

“All the ills of democracy can be cured by more democracy.” — Alfred E. Smith.

Don't if it's true, but it should always be tried. 

If all the voters stay cool and informed and vote for the person who best represents them when the time comes, the Denver Convention will nominate a winning candidate who reflects the values of the party.

I've seen way too many tracking polls and how they jump back and forth in 24 hours to like the idea of a national same day stampede (primary) for every name on every ballot in the country

Polls will fluctuate over days or months. So that shouldn't be a consideration.

As for stampedes, That's what happens under the current corrupt system where the early winner(s) in small states are dubbed to be the only ones worthy of continued support.

Every other kind of election is held on one day. Why not primaries too --  except for the age old assumption that the people can't be trusted to choose their leaders without a manipulative system to correct their mistakes.

ANGER AT CONGRESSIONAL DEMS

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/29/AR2007082902355.html?hpid=topnews

A growing clamor among rank-and-file Democrats to halt President Bush's most controversial tactics in the fight against terrorism has exposed deep divisions within the party, with many Democrats angry that they cannot defeat even a weakened president on issues that they believe should be front and center.

The Democrats' failure to rein in wiretapping without warrants, close the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay or restore basic legal rights such as habeas corpus for terrorism suspects has opened the party's leaders to fierce criticism from some of their staunchest allies -- on Capitol Hill, among liberal bloggers and at interest groups.

At the Democratic-leaning Center for American Progress yesterday, panelists discussing the balance between security and freedom lashed out at Democratic leaders for not standing up to the White House. "These are matters of principle," said Mark Agrast, a senior fellow at the center. "You don't temporize."

The American Civil Liberties Union is running Internet advertisements depicting House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Senate Majority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.) as sheep.

"Bush wanted more power to eavesdrop on ordinary Americans, and we just followed along. I guess that's why they call us the Democratic leadersheep," say the two farm animals in the ad, referring to Congress's passage of legislation granting Bush a six-month extension and expansion of his warrantless wiretapping program.

On March 15, 2005 Senator Joseph Biden (D - Del.) received the Democratic Leadership Council's Harry S. Truman Award.

If Biden isn't a NeoDem -- or want to be considered one -- he should be more careful of the company he keeps

===================================================

Not sure of how an award makes a person bad.  Maybe you read this part of his speech:

Senator Biden's Remarks to the DLC -  March 15, 2005
By Senator Joseph Biden (As Prepared for Delivery)

A Terrible Beauty Has Been Born (title of speech)

Nearly a hundred years ago the great Irish poet William Butler Yeats, writing of his Ireland said: "The world has changed, it has changed utterly. A terrible beauty has been born."

I believe an enlightened American foreign policy and a little luck and a lot of perseverance can help ensure that beauty is in fact born.

The Benefits of Democratization

In January, in his second inaugural address, President Bush spoke with great eloquence about expanding freedom.

I was a little frustrated by some of my Democratic colleagues and some of our friends around the world....

Clearly the President's speech struck a chord with the American people.

The benefits of freedom and the desire to share them with others go to the essence of who we are as a people, how we see ourselves, and our own national experience.

I think the President was also right to link expanding democracy to our own self--interest. Liberal democracies tend not to attack one another. They tend not to abuse their own people. They tend not to produce terrorists.

But of course, in  your googling, Sitka, you conveniently left out this part of Biden's speech, (scrolling down):

With all the promise out there, we also have to inject a little realism.

The last significant opportunity history delivered to President Bush -- an opportunity to unite the nation and the world -- I believe, was squandered.

and this:

And let's remember, it was President Bush who was the late convert to the cause of expanding freedom. He arrived in Washington mocking the very idea of promoting democracy and nation--building. Just as many conservatives berated President Clinton for acting in the Balkans.

and this:

As it now stands, there is a significant gap between the President's rhetoric and his policies. This dichotomy risks undermining the credibility we're trying to restore with modernizers throughout the Middle East.

and this:

Our experience in Iraq demonstrates the unintended consequence of imposing democracy from outside by force without a clear plan for the day, the year, the decade after.

and this:

I believe the most effective, sustainable way to advocate democracy is to work from the inside with those moderates and modernizers to build democratic institutions.

By that I mean political parties, an independent judiciary, an independent media, a modern education system, the civil society and non--governmental organizations, a private sector.

Elections, in the absence of these institutions, favor the most organized groups in those societies, which also tend to be the most radical.

To put it another way -- freedom and liberal democracy are not synonymous. The former without the latter is a recipe for chaos and for return to autocratic rule.

I'm not sure the Bush administration gets the distinction. And if it does, I know it's not acting on it yet

==============================

AND LIKE ALL THE INFOMERCIALS SAY - "BUT WAIT - THERE'S MORE"

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=106&subid=122&contentid=253239

Sitka - you should learn from the Master - not the Master Baiter

If all the voters stay cool and informed and vote for the person who best represents them when the time comes, the Denver Convention will nominate a winning candidate who reflects the values of the party.

But ...... I want to support the "electable" one. Are you saying that trusting my own conscience over punditry will make that happen? What a novel concept!

Yuck. That's just gross. I told FRED he should skip the one liners since he has no talent for them.

And in spite of FRED's overlong cut&paste (which none will read), it still stands that Biden is a NeoDem. 

The Democrats' failure to rein in wiretapping without warrants, close the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay or restore basic legal rights such as habeas corpus for terrorism suspects has opened the party's leaders to fierce criticism from some of their staunchest allies -- on Capitol Hill, among liberal bloggers and at interest groups.

DCDem leaders need to understand that with so many Republi-Dems in their ranks, they are still effectively a minority party and should focus on blocking further wrongs than accepting the premis that they must do things even when it means Bush and the GOP get what they want.

47.

Huron John
Thu, 08/30/07
3:00 pm

...many Democrats angry that they cannot defeat even a weakened president...
---------------

???
Very little basis to get angry, imo, one can't defeat its own inalienable part.., lol.

Repos and Dems can only vote in their own primaries. Indys can choose which.

=========================================

Sounds OK to me, but you do have rules, and now you contradict yourself as  the quotes below indicate

=========================================

Phil said: requesting a patry's primary ballot makes one a member of that party, sorry, but there is no such thing as an independent that casts a primary vote

That's just empty rhetoric.

25. The fewer rules the better as they're most often used by corrupt insiders to manipulate voters and the process. 

FRED suffers from a serious disconnect of logic.

"Democracy gives every man the right to be his own oppressor."

author unknown

Sitka says:

And in spite of FRED's overlong cut&paste (which none will read), it still stands that Biden is a NeoDem.

=========

Just because Chairman Sitka says so - egomania - the occupational hazard of rock musicians

6.

I agree with everything in Paz's- post except, weellll -- the party powers-that-be in good ol' hot Florida just might be able to find us on a map -- if they had one -- which they probably don't.

"Democracy gives every man the right to be his own oppressor."

author unknown

I wouldn't want people to know I'd said that either. But better to be oppressed by oneself than another. 

The current Iraqi bloodletting is pretty tame compared to The Republic after the storming of the Bastille, for sure fewer beheadings.

France turned out OK. Give them their space.

Just because Chairman Sitka says so

FRED demanded a link to Biden's connection to NeoDems and I gave it to him. Like I said -- serious disconnect in logic. 

<>The current Iraqi bloodletting is pretty tame compared to The Republic after the storming of the Bastille, for sure fewer beheadings. France turned out OK. Give them their space.

At least the French started their own revolution and bloodletting and didn't have it imposed upon them by an arrrogant and corrupt superpower. 

Hillary needs a little blog time just to make sure everyone makes an informed choice:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Hillary will be in Iowa on Monday with Bill Clinton as part of our Fall Campaign Kick-off. Visit www.hillaryclinton.com to RSVP to events in Des Moines and Sioux City. Can't wait for Monday? Watch Hillary tonight on the 14th anniversary episode of the "Late Show" with David Letterman on CBS and again on Tuesday on the season premiere of the "Ellen" show with Ellen Degeneres on NBC.

Just because Chairman Sitka says so

FRED demanded a link to Biden's connection to NeoDems and I gave it to him. Like I said -- serious disconnect in logic.

=====================

And your link proved nothing - so you are full of bull

Just to set the record straight, in Florida Independent voters do NOT have the option of choosing a party to vote in the primary. The only way they can vote in a primary, is to re-register in a political party that has candidates running.

I don't know what other states' rules are, they may all be different.

Also as things stand right now in Florida, Democrats (and Repugs) will get to vote in the primary on Jan 29. It's just that all Dems votes for candidates really won't count, one-half of Repugs will count. We have important amendments to vote on as well, all those votes will count of course.

And your link proved nothing

Only to one who wears these...... 

in Florida Independent voters do NOT have the option of choosing a party to vote in the primary. The only way they can vote in a primary, is to re-register in a political party that has candidates running.

AZ used to be that way, but we changed it with a ballot initiative -- in my mind the best way to govern since it's closer to democracy than having elected officials decide. 

62.

And your link proved nothing - so you are full of bull

=========

But I really appreciated the link.  The remarkable points and ideas presented in that speech  just further convinced me of how remarkably intelligent and experienced Biden is. 

 The fact that he hobnobs with the DLC only proves that he can get along with everyone in the party. He is truly a Renaissance Person, and you could not shine his shoes.

48.

FRED from OR
Thu, 08/30/07
3:01 pm


"...freedom and liberal democracy are not synonymous. The former without the latter is a recipe for chaos and for return to autocratic rule.

I'm not sure the Bush administration gets the distinction. And if it does, I know it's not acting on it yet."
------------

The Senator Biden's ability of self-ridiculing is just stunning, he can't (cant he?) even notice that his stance is not very far from the one he is critiquing.

The same as Bush he defines the state of RESISTANCE to OCCUPIERS as the "chaos" and consequently the absence of such a resistance and submission to the occupying power as the "liberal democracy".

The difference between him and Bush only one: Bush is not trying to hide bold truth of his ignorant objectives, Biden (and the rest of Demos "professionals") does just that.

 The fact that he hobnobs with the DLC only proves that he can get along with everyone in the party.

That's Biden's trouble. He stands for nothing but himself and will go along with what and whomever will further that.

 It's just that all Dems votes for candidates really won't count,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It will be like the Republican Straw Poll in Ames a few weeks ago. hard to say how influencial it will be. Mike Huckabee likes to think he is right up there now.

sorry Fred but if I have to choose between "keep the war going" (new mission) corporatist DLC types I'll go for the historic statement of electing a woman

Primary ballot:

o: Hillary Clinton

o: Joe Biden

the largest diffenence in the two is the symbolic one

As my elderly father (who recently fell and couldn’t get up, so that’s what I’ve been doing) said ...“Just take the $50 billion, divide it up among all the Iraqi’s and back slowly out.  If we're not there - they’ll immediately start making life better for themselves and will build up the whole country".

Hi Fred – I agree with Biden.   No one has to ‘impose’ anything on the Iraqi’s – they want to have three sections.  Actually, they’re almost there.   Kurds in the North – Shi’ite in the South and Sunni in the West.  Those Iraqi's in most jeopardy have already left the country (2 to 3 million) or moved to a safe area for themselves (2 to 4 million).    All three areas have their own‘militias. Baghdad mix is the only problem.  The Sunni’s have taken on Al Qaeda.  WE are the ones that have caused the most deaths in Iraq.  Collateral (innocent human deaths caused by U.S.) damage: 500,000 PLUS and growing.  No way would our leaving cause more horror than this....

Huron:  Anger at Democrats?  Here we go again – HUGE logs sticking out of all evil Republicans eyes as they did the bad bads…so let’s point out the little sliver in the Democrats eye?  With the 'Republican sheep' still backing this crazed President right over a cliff, against all reason and against their own futures in politics...and Bush in his last throes, threatening to veto everything; the Democrats and the American people are doing everything they can, as fast as they can to turn this ugliness around. And the bigoted, corrupt, unethical dominos are falling.   Even the Evangelicals are hauling arses away from them. Actually discovering that they are NOT good Christians or good Americans.  Sheep?   Not Pelosi -  THANK YOU DEMOCRATS!

Rove the brain:  Has been caught at everything he's done - and more to come - not so brainy.  The man has never learned how to play chess. 

former
Thu, 08/30/07
3:46 pm

The difference between him and Bush only one: Bush is not trying to hide bold truth of his ignorant objectives, Biden (and the rest of Demos "professionals") does just that.

=============

This is your opinion, to which you have a right.  Apparently to some people, anything short of being on the fringe is a collaboration with the Neocons - such people admit to not being Democrats, which is also their right

But no one has a right to present opinion as established facts to which there is general consensus - that's smearing and character assasination, slander, libel, etc.

  If you want to present it as fact, you have to provide more than a few quotes, with many links to the complete text of what you are trying to prove.

IMO should be your first word

Also, today's point of view on elections

I do want to say that I really appreciated Dodd giving the limelight to the IAFF who were making the endorsement.

One of our local firefighters tells me the endorsement is more significant in urban areas.  He's, of course, more independent.  LOL 

I agree with Biden........WE are the ones that have caused the most deaths in Iraq.  Collateral (innocent human deaths caused by U.S.) damage: 500,000 PLUS and growing.  No way would our leaving cause more horror than this....

Trouble is, Biden doesn't advocate leaving. 

The goal of the neo-conservatives is very simple.  They want to restore the principle of autonomy to government officials, rather than having them responsive and responsible to the will of the people.

There's an elitist bias here.  The great "unwashed" should not be in a position to question the behavior of their betters but should, instead, feel honored to be reperesented by these guiding lights.  No doubt, some of their members playing footsie in the toilet with a perfect stranger is very upsetting.  Momma always told them not to talk to strangers, but I guess she forgot to mention footsies. 

Sam Ross
Thu, 08/30/07
3:57 pm

Reply to this

===============

Thanks for the support - it is nice to have another verbal swash-buckler while fending off the bullcrap - but I beg to differ on the predominant cause of deaths in Iraq.

From the beginning the best most objective unbiased count of U.S. combat-caused death to civilians has been   IRAQ BODY COUNT (see links below) which gives details of every incident, collected from major media and other sources.

The presently count is between  70,980 and 77,513 since the beginning of the invasion.

  Not sure of estimates of civil war car bombs, death squads and executions, etc. but I believe it is much bigger than coalition-caused deaths, simply counting  from the daily reports, which average 60-100 per day, which is between 21,900 and 36,500 per year and probably undercounted to boot.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

 damage: 500,000 PLUS and growing. 

==========

I provided my source, what's your?  Your tactic of defening your bull is usually berating the more objective source.

Trouble is, Biden doesn't advocate leaving.

===============================

STOP TELLING OUTRIGHT LIES ON OUR BLOG

Michigan just moved up its primary to Jan. 15. One day after the Iowa caucus.  Passed the Leg. today. Here we go again....what will the DNC do?

Well, on the up side, now I can actually help campaign since I live 2 miles from the Michigan border.

FRED from OR
Thu, 08/30/07
1:47 pm

Fred, my apologies for the delayed response to your question, I had to step out for work.

As to your question, Florida is a real strange state when it comes to voting and to mentality.  It is divided, distinctly into three parts (although sometimes people claim that the panhandle is a fourth part - I don't agree).  The North part is pure Old South, Democrats that vote Republican, with a few exceptions (Jacksonville - but even then...).  The Central part of the state (or I-4 corridor) is the swing part of the state.  Was Old South but definitely changing.  There is a growing Hispanic population that is traditionally Democratic, but recent surveys show that a large amount don't vote or participate politically.  The area is trending Republican, mostly but the registration numbers lean slightly Democrat.

The hardest part of the state to judge and where much of the power is growing is in the South.  Yes the Northern contingent still holds significant power, but the leadership for both parties is coming from the South.  And it is completely psychotic.  (Only way I know how to describe it.)

Palm Beach County is Democratic.  But the Democrats are about as corrupt as they come.  They are  DLC leaning, married to development.  A County Commissioner named Burt Aaronson control the condos (seniors) and they vote which ever way he wants.  And this is a very large part of the voters.  Still the most powerful group in the County.  Three men control the County - Aaronson, Rep. Ron Klein and Rep. Robert Wexler.  The latter two claim to be liberal - they are anything but.

Broward County contains most of the liberal Democrats, but thay have been acting more and more like DLC supporters.  Even my hero, Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, has signed on to the HRC campaign.  Broward County is where that creep, Gelber, is from.

Miami-Dade?  Fuhgeddaboudit!  The home of the late, great Claude Pepper is a lost cause.

Apologies for the long post but the dynamics of this state are diverse and challenging.  Its why the SOB Bill Nelson does not get an opponent in the primary.

BTW,

floridagal or Joan if you can add anything to my analysis above, or have a differing opinion,please be my guest and make corrections.  Thanks.

The effects on all in Iraq from depleted uranium is not pleasant.       Impeach.

Paz Peace
Thu, 08/30/07
4:20 pm

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Thanks for the info - apparently the leaders of the party are struggling to find the right mix for winning - between the left and right electorate.  Was sorry to see Sen Bill Nelson was such a problem, he is one of the early supporters of Biden's Exit Plan for Iraq, support which comes from across the board, from Left Democrats to Right Republicans.

I will read it again.

84.

Yes, the VA is not set up to deal with brain injuries or genetic damage.  If we're going to provide adequate care to the troops, the health care systems are going to have to be melded so the returning troops can be cared for by the most able to do so.  The Pentagon doesn't want to confront the damage that's been done, but they're going to have to. 

83.

Paz

I can't add anything at this time. It's just pathetic that we have had two state chairpeople now who have used the system for their own benefits, one politically and the current one, Karen Thurman, for financial gain. Neither have run the party well.

As a DEC member in my county, I often went on the  Fla Dems website trying to get the information about our county corrected. It never happened and they wouldn't give me the code to do it myself.

Along comes a new chair and remodeling the website. Though it looks pretty now it has practically no information on it and it took well over a year to do. Gotta wonder how much that set us back financially.

The effects on all in Iraq from depleted uranium is not pleasant

=========

I agree that the "death count" per se from civil war or U.S. combat is just the tip of the iceberg.  There is disease, malnutrition, disability, DU, etc. over the long term, like our cost will be over $2 trillion is the long run.

That doesn't mean a responsible withdrawal, with the best political solutions and international support in place, cannot make it worse.  I am not defending our presence when I say that.  I am just saying there are no good options here, and we must leave.   We need to find the best of the bad options we have for leaving.

Democrats that refuse to discuss that and simply chant "out now" (and discuss nothing else) are leading our party down a short road to success and a long road to failure, not to mention the added death and hardship in the region.

That was Sam Ross' quote.  Ask him for it's source.  (And oddly enough, he was supporting Biden.)

FRED needs to learn to think before he shoots his own messengers. 

paz peace....pretty good analysis over all.   I am not too familiar with South Florida but you hit North Florida right on the point.  Very conservative,  not that Democratic.  We supported a candidate in the Sumter County area a couple of years ago.  The DEC there supported his Republican opponent.  Yes, it really happened.

But I can add about Central Florida...it is in the inland areas very fundamentist...the kind of Southern Baptist fundamentalism which gave rise to such places as the Creation Museum. Pretty much Republican.  

There's Ave Maria city in the Naples area.  What can I say...a city founded on by Domino's Pizza founder built on the tenets of Catholicism

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1423

And there is a place in north central Florida called The Villages....AKA Bush Country.

Well, now I see Michigan has moved up to January 15.  Cute.

STOP TELLING OUTRIGHT LIES ON OUR BLOG

FRED himself has posted on this blog that Biden is not for full withdrawl. Is FRED lying?

Well, now I see Michigan has moved up to January 15.  Cute.

The more the merrier. 

CORRECTION

That doesn't mean a responsible withdrawal, WITHOUT  the best political solutions and international support in place, cannot make it worse. 

STOP TELLING OUTRIGHT LIES ON OUR BLOG

FRED himself has posted on this blog that Biden is not for full withdrawl. Is FRED lying?

==========

Biden is for full combat withdrawal - he is in favor of a Bosnia-type peacekeeping force remaining under the right political settlement

Big difference from the LIE you STATED

That was Sam Ross' quote.  Ask him for it's source.  (And oddly enough, he was supporting Biden.)

FRED needs to learn to think before he shoots his own messengers.

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Sam made a mistake, you deliberately spin the truth and repeat unsubstantiated gossip as fact.

You still cannot give me a source.  I'll take a link  from Sam too.

Biden is for full combat withdrawal

But, as I said, he "doesn't advocate leaving."

You still cannot give me a source.

I was quoting Sam, moron. But if you really want the source, just copy and paste a few words of what he quoted and plug it into google. It will turn up. But I won't do your homework for you. 

But, as I said, he "doesn't advocate leaving."

========

Well if you want to get technical, neither did the relief workers, like Voices in the Wilderness,  "advocate leaving" before they were forced to leave because of the civil war in 2005.  If you mean "leaving" to be so absolute you need to define what you mean instead of just spinning things to sound like something they are not.  Your obvious intent was to portray Biden as pro-occupation in the status quo sense - and now you try to back out of your bullcrap lying with technicalities.  you should have included those technicalities in your original statement.

I was quoting Sam, moron.

================

Well - this "moron" has factual links for what he states. I  don't repeat gossip as fact.  That's how Hitler got elected.

Well if you want to get technical....

<>There's nothing technical about the term "leave."

to go away from someone or something, for a short time or permanently<>

But when Biden says "leave," this is what he means.....

to not take something or someone with you when you go, either intentionally or by accident

What Biden wants to "leave" is American troops in Iraq -- indefinitely. That differs from what Bush is doing only by degree.

Full withdrawl is what Americans want.

==========

American want a change of direction for this country and success in Iraq, not failure, and an end to the useless dying of Americans and everyone else. 

They remember the success in Bosnia, Kosovo, and even Desert Storm and want to see stuff like that, not a quagmire.

Well - this "moron" has factual links for what he states.

Tell it to the guy who agreed with you and posted a linkless passage. 

sitka say: 

What Biden wants to "leave" is American troops in Iraq -- indefinitely. That differs from what Bush is doing only by degree

==========

"only by degree" ?

That's your warped opinion, and as a great student of what Biden says - I totally disagree.

They remember the success in Bosnia, Kosovo, and even Desert Storm and want to see stuff like that, not a quagmire.

Yeah well, a quagmire is what we've got. So get out of it already and quit concocting ways to stay in. 

That's your warped opinion

It also happens to be the warped opinion of most Americans and overwhelmigly among Democrats and liberals. 

That's your warped opinion

Bush wants to leave troops in Iraq indefinitely.

Biden wants to leaves troops in Iraq indefinitely.

The only difference is how many -- a matter of degree. 

Tell it to the guy who agreed with you and posted a linkless passage

========

I would but Obviously he has left the premises

That's your warped opinion

It also happens to be the warped opinion of most Americans and overwhelmigly among Democrats and liberals.

===========

Where's your link for making the claim that the American people see only a "difference by degree" between Biden and Bush?

I repeat - it is always your warped opinion that you alway present as fact

Bush wants to leave troops in Iraq indefinitely.

Biden wants to leaves troops in Iraq indefinitely

===========

That a lie.

Biden may or may not leave troops as part of an international peace-keeping force (depending on how successful the political solution is.)  It is not the same as what Bush wants - except to a blind-sided idiot.

Even Joe-six-pack would understand the difference, but  a fanatic would not.

wow the craig police tape is damning.

and they got delay on hardball going after the dems.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

That a lie.

Biden may or may not leave troops as part of an international peace-keeping force

FRED throws the word "lie" around a lot, but doesn't even know what it means.

But since FREd himself has, on this thread no less, posted that Biden's plan is to leave some US troops (see 94.), maybe it is he who really is lying now -- or obfuscating at best. 

I'll let you have the last word, Sitka, bloggers don't deserve the bickering

linda b
Thu, 08/30/07
5:45 pm

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If you caught Jay Leno's comments  last night, I am sure you'd agree his "report" is even more damning LOL.

New thread

and before I leave for the county organizing meeting for Edwards a HOWARDLY to the Louisiana A-List duo

http://www.blogforamerica.com/view/22024

Chiming  in on Çraig.

If the guy is gay, so what?  What he should be is castigated and thrown outta office for is lying and being a hypocrite. Also for being a repugnican!  :-)

We are such a puritanical and homophobic society.

********************* 

116. And that he was trying to engage in an illegal act.

He was after all in a public facility-in where he was trying to engage in sexual conduct. Has nothing to do with whom he was trying to have the sex with. But it's where, what, lying and hypocrisy that is the problem. Definitely.