Howard, standing up to the state of Florida, is first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_f...

OK, I've got to get ready for the Edwards picnic.

Bluehamsphire has a diary about this NYT story.  I don't agree with the diary.

What do you think? 

Big Easy struggles 2 years after Katrina

NEW ORLEANS (AP) Two years after Hurricane Katrina, much of the "city that care forgot" still lies in ruins. But Otis Biggs' task as he shuffles his Tarot deck this moist August day is to peer into the future to 2015, the storm's 10th anniversary. ...

..."For every positive that's going on in New Orleans right now, there's a negative, there's a concern," says Reed Kroloff, who until recently was dean of the school of architecture at Tulane University.

The failure of federally funded, state-administered recovery programs to quickly take hold, and the city's struggle to define and fund plans for neighborhood redevelopment, have shaken confidence about New Orleans' short-term future. Mayor Ray Nagin favors a "market-driven" recovery of the city. Critics say he has not made the tough decisions necessary to get planning for the city's future moving into high gear.

New Orleans still struggles with corruption. A congressman is under indictment, a senator has been implicated in a sex scandal and a city councilman thought to be a favorite as New Orleans' next mayor pleaded guilty in August to federal bribery charges and resigned. ...full article: http://dwb.fresnobee.com/24hour/front/st...

----

We Need Reed!: http://www.dfalink.com/campaign.php?id=2...

Ayad Allawi is a terrorist.  He introduced car bombs to Iraq.

Good Morning All

Howard Dean Speaks For ME!!!

Thank you Howard Dean for that ever present backbone. For your continous strong standing on principle and ethics. For not cowering to smears and attacks.

...those others Dem's can't keep blaming others for their hand in things and they surely can't call others out for breaking rules and laws and then wanting to breaking rules and laws. Walk the Talk as Howard Dean, the LEADER of the Democratic Party DOES!

And that is the news today!

Rock on!

And a little bit more of what should be in the news today.

Tim Robbins also speaks for me.

"...."shouldn't there be a rule or a law that say's if you f@ck things up so badly, you can no longer be considered an expert?"

view a great clip from Real Time with Bill Maher here:
http://alternet.org/blogs/video/#60714

Under "Democrats reaffirm their commitment to voting rights..."


DNC Chairman Howard Dean and DNC Voting Rights Institute Chair Donna Brazile issued the following joint statement on the 42nd anniversary of the signing of the Voting Rights Act by President Lyndon B. Johnson.

...


"As part of our ongoing effort to make it easier for Americans to exercise their right to vote, Democrats are conducting a nationwide survey to evaluate the election mechanics in each state. It is our goal to work to flag and prevent potential problems and election administration issues that threaten to deprive citizens of their right to register, vote and have their vote counted."

But now both have disenfranchised the whole population of Florida Democrats, who will rightfully give the hypocrits above named the middle finger.

... and i join them.

BTW that clip of hypocracy is directly from the DNC web site here...

http://www.democrats.org/a/national/elec...

Howard Dean who 'bravely' threw election funding reform in the dumpster, fought for hard by Democrats, now along woththe 'peoples advocates champions' on the DNC now insist that an entire state ignore it's own state law.

Where is it i am missing this? First we want the people to have the power, now we dictate from D.C.

Did Donna or Howard offer to fund a different date for the FL Democrats to have their primary? Will the DNC pay for election workers? How about voting equipment? Venues? Snacks? Advertising?
ANYTHING?????????????

I don't see anywhere that the offer was or is being made.

Hello? All you 'floor he walks on' worshippers need to explain.

Politics is not so easy in Guatemala. Forty candidates have been murdered in this campaign, including a 15 yr. old daughter of one of the candidates who was tortured and killed. Her father said he had been called all sorts of names including communist. It would be interesting to know more, but we may not get the whole story. DU article, AP.

Technically speaking, Deaniac, participants in a political party are not covered by federal and state guarantees of civil rights.  They are governed by the rules of the organization, much as members of a homeowners association are governed by their rules.

Edwards on CBS............his tie makes his eye bluer..............about Iraq.............he he, theyre all in deep ka ka over it............what a mess.............Elizabeth is smarter than him..............

Monica Smith
Sun, 08/26/07
10:38 am

'Technically' is an excuse which Florida citizens, and especially Democrats, don't have the luxury to argue. Please address how a primary happens without funding.

Was it not Howard who opposed No Child Left behind because of funding? Is this his 'No State Committee Left Standing' initiative?

US EPA is reviewing dangerous fumigant pesticides for re-registration and considering what precautions applicators must take to protect the public from the health hazards of these volatile poisons. EPA is currently soliciting public comment on fumigant re-registrations and your input is needed.

Take Action now!

http://action.panna.org/petition.jsp?petition_KEY=693

Pesticides and Autism: New research suggests that children whose mothers lived near applications of the organochlorine pesticides endosulfan and dicofol during the first trimester of pregnancy are at significantly greater risk for developing Autism Spectrum Disorders.

http://www.panna.org/index.html

Bayer to Face Peruvian Families at Court-Ordered Settlement Hearing for 24 Children Killed by Pesticide 

Lima, Peru: On October 22, 1999 in the remote Andean village of Tauccamarca, 24 children were poisoned and killed when they drank a powdered milk substitute as part of their school lunch that had been contaminated by the organophosphate pesticide methyl parathion. Eighteen other children at the school were poisoned but survived, and today suffer the developmental consequences typical of organophosphate poisoning.

In 2001, the families brought a civil action against Bayer S.A., the wholly-owned subsidiary of the.....

http://www.panna.org/resources/documents/bayerSettlement20070411.dv.html 

Linda*in*SFNM
Sun, 08/26/07
9:54 am


Like it or not the Florida residents are going to have the primary according to the new law. All else is whining. The DNC should have been influential somehow prior to that. If they tried and lost, well... that's how it goes.

It's like how everyone wants blame the Iraqi for not having a political solution to the nightmare that we created. I argue that if the people of the U.S., and especially Democrats in that esteemed tank of wisdom Washington D.C., cared for the Iraqi they'd have acted to oust the warmongers when the drums were beating.

NOW is basicly too late to cry... except for impeachment.

Dow Chemical accused of bribing officials in India:

 On August 21, the Indian Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) raided Dow Chemical offices in seven locations due to allegations that the corporation was "allegedly paying bribes to key Central Insecticides Board and Registration Committee... officials to obtain license for the marketing of its insecticide products in India," reports the Hindustan Times. Dow Chemical, having bought 100% of Union Carbide, continues to deny liability for ongoing pollution in Bhopal, India, and continuing illness of tens of thousands who were contaminated when Union Carbide's pesticide plant exploded in 1984. Read more

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=20d994dc-b86b-4091-ada3-d2ac6499d38a

BTW is our hero Howard calling for impeachment?

Take a gander at this guy...WARNING!!!---CRUDE LANGUAGE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKBKdVQqa...

Deaniac

when it happened Florida Democrats blamed it all on the Republicans, are they now saying it was them?

In most places the local party pays for the costs of the method to allocate the delegates to the national convention, the DNC doesn't provide any money to Iowa

why would the DNC pay Florida's costs? 

Seashell what's the new business.

Susan Rowe -- thanx for Wiki entry of DFA -- did you write it?

Deaniac -- I'm not sure who is right or wrong for sure - FL or DNC, but at least Howard is trying to enforce some discipline to those who would ignore the rules and he shows a little BACKBONE which is more than you can say for our Congresssheeple.

I saw this Doug Brinkley article on NOLA featured on Wash Journal this morning -- I think Doug Brinkley writes very well. He stands back and gives an overview - is hard on Bush but more so on Nagin. It's mainly 'do we fix it' or do we continue to ignore it?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...

Free registration required.

20.

Deaniac in GA
Sun, 08/26/07
10:51 am

I believe Howard would consider calling for impeachment beyond his paygrade so to speak.

Deaniac in GA
Sun, 08/26/07
10:49 am
___________________________________________________________________________

Those are pretty challenging words to the Democratic establishment and status quo..............beetr take care, or Fred will be labeling you a "guest" as well..........................

Im a "hick" too.............from the Adirondacks of upstate NY...................I was in heaven 2 weeks ago..........just me, floating down small rapids (no raft or tube)............nobody around............then I lit up my carefully waterproofed and sealed cigar on the riverbank..............................now THAT was peaceful.

About the Biden plan...
This may have worked a couple of years ago.....

...Another problem with the three state proposa, is the Kurdish state will disappear. Turkey cannot afford an independent Kurdistan. The Kurds want us to stay but our exit will abandon them to their fate.
If anyone thinks we can stay in Kurdistan only then please look at a map. Dooming more troops in an isolated area surrounded by those who hate us is as dumb as our going into Iraq in the first place

=======================

dog, this is not a 3-state solution any more than our own United States.  It is federalization, while keeping one country, and it has been passed by the parliament as the way to go in Iraq.  Will Maliki follow this law? That is the question.  Read Biden's speech  

....But they say they are reluctant to “impose” a political settlement on the Iraqis. In fact, my plan “imposes” nothing on the Iraqis; rather, it would implement what is already in their constitution and laws. The Iraqi constitution establishes a decentralized, federal system in Iraq, with extensive powers for the regions and limited powers for the central government. The Iraqi parliament passed legislation, which takes effect early next year, to implement those provisions of the constitution. If my opponents would read the constitution and Iraq’s laws, their concern about fully backing my plan would vanish. I call on them to do so, and to support the Biden-Boxer-Brownback legislation, which would force the Bush Administration to change policy and support the Iraqi Constitution.

http://blog.thehill.com/2007/08/23/like-bush-some-of-my-democratic-colleagues-cling-to-flawed-premise-sen-joe-biden/

None of you are addressing the funding that would have to be there to hold this seperate primary, which is no matter what you think are paid for by state SOS budgets.

Where is the funding for the Democrats in any state at issue going to come from?

Answer the question... is Jim going to put up a bat for that?

Phil Specht
Sun, 08/26/07
10:55 am


Love you, you know that, but that is a dodge.

The DNC didn't say anything about having a Jan 29th Florida Primary just that credentialed delegates to the Denver Convention couldn't come out of that process as per agreed upon rules that were formulated in a calendar consistant with the way it has been done for many years. There was a time and place provided to change the system which Florida and Michigan participated in and unfortunately from their viewpoint weree unable to garner a majority

are those proposing to turn the system into something other than one governed by rules going to pound on doors during recounts like the Republican brownshirts during the 2000 recount?

that is how I view Florida Democratic party officials choice

follow Howard Dean and the DNC or join their brother brownshirts because a disrupted convention is the sure result.

Howard Dean is the best Chair in the history of the party as witnessed by the 06 elections and he demonstrated his fabled backbone yesterday

I am reminding you all that the states of IA and NH make their arguments from the stance of 'state law', which i guess the DNC has adopted.

The law in NH is circa 1978, i believe without gooooogling, how has Dems done by percentage in the POTUS category since then?

Think folks.

Iowa Democrats carry the full cost of the caucuses. any state where it is different have a cozy relationship with the Republicans to have independent taxpayers to participate in taxation without representation

Since Hillary Clinton is far outpolling the other candidates in the State of Confusion Florida, it will be to every Democrat's advantage, whether they know it or not, that Florida's primary votes won't count!

Perhaps that was in the back of Howard's mind in making his decision;)) There is an upside to everything.

I stand with Howard Dean, always.

Phil Specht
Sun, 08/26/07
11:05 am

You still aren't ansewing the question of funding.

But if it would make the DNC happy, you suggest i guess, the Dem Party of Florida would ignore the primary vote of it's citizens - and designate delegates by some other method?

Did i hear you right? I'm calling B.S.on that.

18.

Deaniac in GA

I'm not following you here. In many ways I agree with your argument, only you are aiming at the wrong persons.


I agree, they have to stop whining and deal with the issues. Florida was ignoring the rules set by the National Committee for the Presidential 08 Primary by PUSHING, YES, FLORIDA DEM'S WERE PUSHING (even though now they want to blame the Repub state officials for making the official change-again, they're not accepting responsibility of their own actions) for the too early Primary Electiion.

You surely aren't advocating anyone can ignore the rules set, which is why we are in this mess, are you? AND, AND, when Governor kept asking them not to do this and they ignored him, they made it officials, he stated they would lose their delegates, they "flew to Washington to have a meeting and state their case". Governor Dean then gave them a way out to keep their delegates, EVEN THOUGH THEY CHOSE TO PUSH THE EARLY DATE, and they rejected his offer to have a Caucus then. Then they spend these passed months on a smear and lie campaign to bully their will, even though it is completely against the rules that were set LAST YEAR.

And being Florida has done this, and aren't willing to have a caucus to keep their delegates, where is there left to go?

Indeed, stop whining. These are the known facts, the next question is what are you going to do about it? They chose this path ignoring rules and laws set. The DNC are still offering a rememedy to this debacle Florida Dem's created. Where does the end come...after Florida pushed the envelope, Michigan and Arizona are waiting on deck to do the same..................to be continued.

My arguement is that the cozy relationship may be between monied nominee candidates and the not publicly funded caucuses.

In Georgia, and most states, the folks on the ballot pay a fee to be on the ballot to the state's SOS. The primary is held by the counties under state laws and scrutiny. The various parties' heirarchy is not involved, the candidates campaigns compete according to their own funding.

Deaniac

 please address the basic question of how to allocate percentages of delegates to the nominating Convention of the Democratic Party.

We are talking about how to determine the individual name on the ballot across from DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

a political party is by law in every state responsible for providing a system whereby candidates up and down the ballot are determined

Iowa does have a primary and it is the first week in June, and unfilled ballot slots are filled by convening a special convention of the Democratic Party precinct committee people elected at the caucus, it is the legal basis for our candidates and has been so since the state Constitution was first ratified.

Deaniac, New Mexico added a Caucus to assign Delegates on February 5, and this small population state pays for it.

33.

Joan* In*Florida

That is why Florida Dem's are trying to push.....for Hillary to be annointed, like Kerry was, only even earlier. Then she will lose in the General.

Linda*in*SFNM
Sun, 08/26/07
11:17 am


Address the funding please. DNC? DFA? The candidate's campaigns, which ones will be left by then to give a flying dang?

Both IA and NH have said they would push up their selections if others moved up!!! Wouldn't this negate the difference? We are talking about 8 days here.

Did the DNC need to kick FL in the teeth? Just to show it could? When i listened to Donna Brazile she used the word "I" about five times. Was this all about her? Who all is intimidated by her or her cliche? Apparently not Floridians.

As i've stated before i do not always agree with Howard, my opposition to the funding RULES are a matter of factual history.
I lost that vote, the DNC lost the vote in FL - if that's the way yo look at it.

You can't have it both ways.

oops... s/b

my opposition to the funding RULES being violated by the Dean for America campaign are a matter of factual history

 any Party has rules

how do the Greens allocate delegates to thei nominating convention?

The Democratic Party does it by agreeing to approve rules formulated by each state and then approval is passed  by the National Rules Committee, and formally adopted by the full DNC and before they were even sent to the DNC each and every state ruling body had to approve them.

gather where ever you want outside of those guidelines, just don't expect to be credentialed at the Denver Convention

Why are you arguing for Florida to break the rules Deaniac? don't you live in Georgia?

Phil Specht
Sun, 08/26/07
11:22 am


You are trying to say there may be some actual unexpected result that comes out of Denver. We both know better than that, so does FL, MI, and AZ.

Let's allll hold caucuses is a no starter. You'll be doing good to see even one candidate in most states. You are arguing from the favorite son's point of veiw, not the red-headed step son's. There are at least 30 of those.

How does Georgia allocate it's delegates to Denver?

14.  In the beginning, before everyone realized what a disaster all the testing of children to assess the competence of their teachers was, there was an argument that the law couldn't be complied with because it cost more than the money that was being provided.

sorry--need to change browser

Phil Specht
Sun, 08/26/07
11:34 am


I was born in Jacksonville FL, raised there. Moved as a teen to the thrown of wingnuts, Greenville S.C. Wound up in CA for a large part of my career. Back to N.C. after an earthquake nearly killed my newborn daughter. Then back to FL just in time to listen to that 'sucking sound' Bill Clinton ignored.
Now i'm in GA because then my ex can't claim i'm scary, some 11 hours away. Get it?

I'm only scary in a court of law, or in a debate based on reality and facts.

My political veiw point is maybe, just maybe, at bit broader than some... maybe even Howard's who has resided in how amny states?

IMHO, it would be a really bad precedent to require the political parties to fund primaries.  Of course, we could do away with primaries entirely and have parties select candidates in some other way.  But, that shouldn't happen on a state by state basis for national elections.

NH, for example, has an "open" primary in the sense that any person can register on the day of the vote and can change registration on the spot--which has led to some accusations that Republicans bus in people from Massachusetts who provide false evidence of residency and register to vote in an election that they're not actually entitled to participate in.

Life is not easy. 

One reason I can see for Howard standing up to FL is that there was the threat of a free for all on his hands -- an even more chaotic primary season than it is. I can see where the candidates and their advisors have to almost scientifically decide who is going to be where when before primaries. If that's all thrown up in the air a few short months from now (right? I'm not a year ahead am i) then it would really scr*w up their planning. I agree that the current system is FUBAR, Deaniac. Why do we have a couple of 'middle America' (not speaking geographically) mostly (I think) white folks, prolly Protestants, prolly fairly old fashioned values, no offense Phil, be deciding the next President, which is what happens now with NH and IA. But we need to make the rules ahead - preferably 4 years ahead - for planning purposes.

I also agree with Joan that it's good for us progressives if FL doesn't count since they will prolly go Hillary. Last I heard Hill was not ahead in IA. If she ends up winning IA I will sense that something is rotten in Denmark I mean IA just as I'm not sure at all there wasn't something rotten there when Kerry won. jmo -- and a 'guest' at that (ie an Indy) lol.

Phil Specht
Sun, 08/26/07
11:36 am


It truly doesn't even matter by then. BUT just so you don't claim i'm unknowledgeable.
We go to district, nominate potential delegates closely following diversity rules, then vote on the spot. Done deal and completely democratic.
BUT by then the deal is done, in fact WAY before then.

If i am one this time, i'm walking out with any state that does so because of Donna Braziles initiative.

Deaniac...

You know Howard went down to the Monkey Jungle,(no pun intended), to meet with the Fl. Dems and make another appeal for them to obey the rules. The time was past to change the rules, they were aware. The people of Fl. need to deal with their elected officials. who caused this situation. Howard was reporting and carrying out the rules set up by a comm. appointed by Terry McAuliff. He did good
Love y'all, mean it.

audrey.nc
Sun, 08/26/07
11:53 am


My skin is too thick to let some of what you've said blow me up.lol

That jungle has been necessary to elect every modern Democratic POTUS, period.

True? Us hicks really need your guidance on such things.

Las Vegas hardly qualifies as "protestant" anything and they are the ones getting the shove. South Carolina also loses. move them all up and Iowa and New Hampshire  become even more important

I see this late date shoving match to be an attempt to head off a strong start by Edwards who now leads. 

How can you have a Convention without rules, or a Party?

Phil Specht
Sun, 08/26/07
12:02 pm

Way out of character i recommend you note the analysis of the folk on ABC's panel, especially Fareed's. I'll be at the party celebrating stopping the potential train wreck that comes out of IA and NH by the states with the backbone to show courage against McAuliff's people.

53. Phil my sense is most of Nevada is kinda like Idaho -- Vegas 'guests' you are right.

might be a bit of a shoving match betweeen SEIU (Nevada) and UAW (Mich) going on, more of a AIPAC pushback;and the DLC is also desperate to get to a state where they have clout too

money doesn't matter in the early states and that scares the h*ll out of K Street as well

... hope you all have a great day. Sorry i don't cotton to being shoved from D.C., not even under Howard's leadership.

Love ya'll, mean it!

The service workers of the hospitality industry are the largest faction in the Democratic Party in Nevada, I suspect the Republicans are indistinquishable from Idaho.

In case you haven't heard. Charile Grapski had his bail lowered (to $1500 from $60,000) and has been released from jail. Now the REAL struggle begins...DROP ALL CHARGES.

http://www.highspringsherald.com/articles/2007/08/26/breaking_news/break01.txt

Alachua resident and political activist Charlie Grapski has been released from jail, but according to court documents, he may not talk to Alachua city officials or visit Alachua City Hall or the Alachua Police Department.

Grapski, charged with multiple felonies, had his bond reduced from $60,000 to $1,500 as part of a stipulated agreement with the State Attorney's Office. Grapski had been on a hunger strike for more than a week and was taken to the hospital this past Tuesday with weak vital signs. A day later, he agreed to start eating.

He was expected to go before a judge this Tuesday for a bond reduction hearing, but the stipulated agreement let him out of jail this weekend.

Phil Specht
Sun, 08/26/07
12:10 pm


... oh, that is low. You suppose that all these states aren't paying attention to the candidates positions, don't know which way they voted when it counted, and are waiting for a PR campaign to know.

done here for today

... I'm David Rowan and i endorse my above positions.lol

Charlie can now organize his defense. more importantly get well. great news

Indy Steve
Sun, 08/26/07
12:15 pm


That is great news!!! .. and he should closely follow the terms of that agreement. I just hope his medical expenses aren't outrageous now.

I'm writing a check now to his defense.

61. Good point, Phil about the service workers in NV

Thank you for your update, Steve. I am so glad Charlie's bond was reduced and he is out of jail. He never should have been there to begin with.

IMO, stick with Iowa followed by NH.

Howard is right.

I frankly don't trust FL being anywhere near first -- not after what happened to Gore there in 2000.

Deaniac..

They really did meet at the MonkeY Jungle, nothing intended. I have lived half my life in Fl., my daughter born in Miami. I used to proudly proclaim myself as a "Fl. Cracker" when I was a kid growing up there. None of that has anything to do with obeying the rules, and I do luv y'all, as I do all other Deaniacs.

my rules proposal for a multiple week absentee ballot only voting for the allocation of delegates to the nominating convention gives every single party member exactly the same voice

think about it rather than arguing over which state goes first instead of Iowa

no state should go first (and I take quite a bit of heat at the State Central Committee for proposing that)

bbl

Indy Steve
Sun, 08/26/07
12:15 pm

==============

great news Steve.  I got your response the other day when I got back.  There is a book which is the Bible of non-toxic building, refurbishing etc.  It is called the THE HEALTHY HOUSE by JOHN BOWER - ISBM 0-9637156-9-0    Library of Congress number 00-134218 - published by the Healthy House Institute - printed on recycled paper with soy-based ink.

Bob Graham is one of the finest people I have ever met and I judge all Floridians as smart enough to elect him as their Governor and Senator so they can't be bad.

If the rules changes made them earlier I would have supported that.

they didn't so I don't

Fred,
As usual we disagree. I am damn well tired of being told I do not read or understand the plan because I disagree with you. So stop it.

From Biden's plan...
1 - Establish One Iraq, with Three Regions

- Federalize Iraq in accordance with its constitution by establishing three largely autonomous regions - Shiite, Sunni and Kurd -- with a strong but limited central government in Baghdad.

- Put the central government in charge of truly common interests: border defense, foreign policy, oil production and revenues
- Form regional governments -- Kurd, Sunni and Shiite -- responsible for administering their own regions.
----------------------------------------------------------

The plan falls apart from step 1.
The largely autonomous regions sounds nice but the Kurdish region will not last because Turkey will not allow it.
Currently, in the southern part of the country, Shias are fighting Shia for power. So much for peace in the autonomous regions.
A strong central government is mentioned and that may be the most necessary part to get the country off the ground. To do that, Maliki will have to go as he is seen as a US stooge.

Fred,
You like Biden's plan but do you have any clue on how to implement this or any plan? Is Biden just going to pull this part out of thin air?
You have never said how this is to be implemented.
Obviously, regional poweres will work with Iraq to develope something that gives the Iraq people security. What that is is anybody's guess.

I am starting to agree with others about your condescending attitude.

gotta run...will check back later

Yes, Audrey, my brother checked Howard in through security at the airport when Howard at that function in Miami.

Be well Deaniac.

____________

Indy, thank you. Great news on Charlie. It seems the evidence was getting to clear to ignore. Hopefully the attention is helping, or helped.

Deaniac...I believe the city is responsible for his hospital when he is in their custody.

I am starting to agree with others about your condescending attitude.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

dog,

Shhhhhhhh............Freds off by himself.............even an Independent like me, even thiough Im a guest here, has more in common with most..........................

Phil Specht
Sun, 08/26/07
12:20 pm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Phil,

I wonder if 60 Minutes would be interested in Chaerlies plight?

Fred,
You like Biden's plan but do you have any clue on how to implement this or any plan? Is Biden just going to pull this part out of thin air?
You have never said how this is to be implemented.
Obviously, regional poweres will work with Iraq to develope something that gives the Iraq people security. What that is is anybody's guess.

===================

No, dog, I don't know much.  A lot of it has to do with my faith in the same people who succeeded in Bosnia, and their extensive knowledge of foreign affairs.

 People here can have their opinions, but a lot of "intuitive" positions exists on this blog, based on ideology and attitude, and a few isolated "facts" they happen to know. 

I know faith in public officials is not fashionable these days, but Biden's 30 or so years track record on foreign policy is pretty good, and he has many bone fide reputable supporters in good standing, inside and outside this country.

So, no, I don't base my support of this plan in my own knowledge of the situation, but from what I can see, it makes sense.  I leave the details to the experienced progressive statespeople I trust.

Michael Ellis
Sun, 08/26/07
12:54 pm

=============

You seem to be in a "jolly good" mood as your country folks might say.

71.

dog soldier
Sun, 08/26/07
12:36 pm


The plan falls apart from step 1.
...
Obviously, regional poweres will work with Iraq to develope something that gives the Iraq people security. What that is is anybody's guess.
---------

!!!
...here is my guess:

The Cradle of civilization (Iraq that is) will redefine its own creation again to show to the "advanced democracies" around the Globe what can be done WITHOUT THE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT by local SELF-GOVERNING bodies only (it's my understanding that "success" of the famous Anbar province has already demonstrated it).

Instead of accepting "individual freedom", "liberty", and other b*****et, The Cradle will respond back with its own DEFINITIONS of those terms..., FOUGHT OVER with blood and lives of tens of thousands.

We'll have chance to see whose ideas is more sustainable and acceptable by People everywhere.

Freds off by himself... even thiough Im a guest here, has more in common with most..........................

=============

Well that's the last time I will defend you for blaspheming our founder, Howard Dean.

Mike, I'm so sorry for you are such an defenseless person here on this blog..., lol.

former
Sun, 08/26/07
1:05 pm

=============

The elephant in the living room nobody wants to acknowledge (with the exception of Biden and a few others) is that the Iraqi Civil war will morph into a regional war by proxy.  Every side thinks it can win.  The losers will be hundreds of thousand of dead and injured civilians, and millions of homeless refugees.

Dog seems to have ignored the point that federalization is in the Constitution and has been voted by the Parliament to take effect next January.  Will USA and the international community advance that law, or allow Maliki to maintain the status quo?

did u all see Jim Webb on "this week" today? Eloquent as ever. and the blowhard from texas spouting "they will follow us home" lingo.

what a whore. and this putz used be the supreme court justice in texas. god help u there.

Annilow, can't/don't want to talk about it till it's launched.  December! Or so.

"I also agree with Joan that it's good for us progressives if FL doesn't count since they will prolly go Hillary."  (Now I forgot who wrote this)

OK, I'm not understanding this. Hillary would also lose her delegates? 

I need a crash course in how delegates are determined.  Isn't this all being masterminded by the Clintoistas?  With Rove's help?  After all, y'll, Hillary fixed to winit cuz she's init~  Yuk.  And then lose the gen'l.  IMO  

Dog seems to have ignored the point that federalization is in the Constitution and has been voted by the Parliament...
----------

What dog has ignored does not matter..., what matter much more is WHAT Iraqi people have ignored..., and that is the Constitution mentioned above..., e.g. the document created for/of/by Occupying power and as of such having no place in Iraqi's mass conscious.

OUT NOW!

Charlie's out of jail...yeeaaahhhh!!!...I'll get the first round...

from california speaks out...


Initiatives and More Initiatives filling up the 2008 ballot

We’ve been following the trail of initiative announcements and the march from signature gathering to qualifying for the ballot. With virtually dozens of such measures in some stage of the process, we’ll be looking carefully at them all as they qualify for the ballot in either February, June, or November 2008.

At this point in time, it seems that the topic which will be most closely followed revolves around the sneaky effort by the Republicans to rig our Presidential vote in a way that ensures their party’s occupation of the White House in 2008. As we’ve reported previously on our website and on our blogpost, the Reps want to divvy-up the state’s massive 55 votes by congressional district, thus insuring them of additional electoral votes similar in number to those within states the size of Ohio or Florida. No need for chads or hacking into insecure Diebold voting machines, as the thinking goes, all we have to do is split California’s votes and regain the White House we’ve lost through our miserable, corrupt and incompetent stewardship over the past 6 ½ years.

The Dems are coming back swinging this time. This past week they introduced two proposed initiatives of their own that will reform the antiquated Electoral College system of electing a President. It calls for a national approach which will commit California to a plan that declares the winner of the national popular vote, President. Under the Democrats plan, this process would go into effect once the majority of states holding 270 cumulative electoral votes support such a measure.

Although a recent Field Poll released Tuesday, August 21, 2007 shows initial support for the Rep proposal (the Democratic response was not included in the poll because it had not yet been introduced), it did not have over 50 % support. Without a big lead to start, these kinds of initiatives rarely pass after a long and expensive battle which will undoubtedly ensue. You can be sure this measure will attract lots of national attention for its potential consequences for whoever takes the White House in November 2008. We’ll be covering this one very closely.

Good videos up thread.

Deaniac makes a good point when he says "Think about it." In the last 50 years, how many dems have won the nomination after losing in IA and NH?

The better point perhaps is that in the last 50 years, the CM has gone to hell and the sheeple have been dumbed down.  My understanding is that a lot of the nation's textbooks are produced in TX.  Just who is in charge  of putting what into our country's textbooks.  I wanna know that.......... 

83. Seashell, I think the point (both Joan and me) was that if FL can't vote at the convention, that may be a good thing, bc FL is leaning very strongly Hillary. Just one more POV.
------------------------------------
Greece is on fire -- threatens the very beautiful area around ancient Olympia.


Greek fires reach ancient Olympics site
By PETROS GIANNAKOURIS, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 33 minutes ago
ANCIENT OLYMPIA, Greece - Massive fires consuming large areas of southern Greece for a third day raced toward the site of the ancient Olympics on Sunday, engulfing villages and forests as the flames reached one of the most revered sites of antiquity.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070826/ap_o...

There is no end to the neo-con desire to destroy democracy, mprov.

As for textbooks, I found this among others.  Who really keeps track of what gets into books read by our kids.  I talked to a man last year who said that when his class got to Vietnam  in their history class, the teacher skipped over it completely. Dumbed down is right.

This article appeared in the "Editor's File"
in The Textbook Letter, Volume 12, Number 4.

I recently noticed a closely similar stunt in the 1999 version of Holt, Rinehart and Winston's high-school book World History: Continuity and Change. Holt's writers, too, are intent on deceiving students and promoting Zionism -- but instead of using trickery that involves the term Israel and the character Moses, they have used trickery that involves the term Palestine and the character Abraham (a figure in the Hebrew Bible's Book of Genesis).

In chapter 2 of Continuity and Change, in the first paragraph of a passage titled "The Hebrews," Holt's writers employ slippery claims and a plain lie to create the impression that the Hebrew Bible is a history book: They say that the ancient Hebrews produced "writings" which contained "much of their early history" and which "later formed the foundation for the Bible." Then, in their second paragraph, they say: "According to these accounts, the founder of the Hebrews was a shepherd named Abraham, who originally lived in Sumer. From there, he migrated with his family to Palestine."

That is false. The Book of Genesis does have a myth in which a Mesopotamian travels with his family to another land, but this fellow's name is Abram, not Abraham. (He will become Abraham in a later myth.) More importantly, Abram travels to Canaan, not to Palestine. The name Palestine doesn't appear in any tale about Abram, or in any tale about Abraham, or in any other part of the Book of Genesis. When Holt's writers say that "Abraham" migrated to "Palestine," they are endorsing the notion that modern Jews -- who have a loose, literary connection to the ancient Hebrews -- possess some sort of primary claim to the region that carries the name Palestine today.

The region that carries the name Palestine today is a recent creation. Here is some information from the article "Palestine" in The New Encyclopaedia Britannica (2002):

http://www.textbookleague.org/124zion.htm

Chemicals industry disregards U.S. public health:

Mark Schapiro has documented that some corporations make two lines of products - one that meets the stronger European Union chemical regulations, and less safe products for the more lax U.S. regulatory atmosphere. His new book, Exposed: The Toxic Chemistry of Everyday Products (Chelsea Green Publishing) contradicts the industry messaging that halting use of phthalates and other harmful chemicals will hurt the economy. AlterNet presents an interview with Schapiro, who is editorial director of the Center for Investigative Reporting and, with David Weir, author of the groundbreaking book Circle or Poison: Pesticides and People in a Hungry World (Food First, 1981).

http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/59714/

The thought of one arsonist (terrorist?) being able to burn down a country....what have we become if not pre-savage savages?  This is heartbreaking.

I heard on AAR Friday but wasn't going to post it.  The news just came out about a 5 year old boy, in Baghdad, being doused with gasoline and then set on fire.  I cried and raged all the way home in my car.

This is the face of Bush and Cheney and Rice and Gonzales and all the rest who invaded Iraq.  This is the madness in the BH.  This is what both repugs and dems are allowing to continue.

And this is also what the American public is allowing...the ugly putrid face of fascm.

What dog has ignored does not matter..., what matter much more is WHAT Iraqi people have ignored..., and that is the Constitution mentioned above..., e.g. the document created for/of/by Occupying power and as of such having no place in Iraqi's mass conscious.

OUT NOW!

===============

The Bush administration mantra of "stay the course" is not much different than "out now" mantra - since both mantras, one Left, one Right, ignore the future consequences of a road to nowhere.

We need a change of direction, change of policy, and end to the civil war, and the fighting to end, and a positive new direction for this diabled country and fledging sectarian central government. 

Arguments on the Left, about how fast we can exit, and residual forces, are irrelevant diversions from the most important issues: what is the new direction?; and how will it end the civil war and leave this country moving in the right direction and better than the way it is now?

Bosnia is the closest analogy to that - looking forward.  Forget the invasion, the past,  forget the occupation.  That has nothing to do with the future.

Bush has a logjam in his eyes.

The U.S. Media Plays Along With the Farcical Trial of Chemical Ali
Posted by Barry Lando on August 25, 2007 at 7:20 AM.

Like a distant historical footnote to the bloody tragedy raging in Iraq, the trial of Saddam Hussein’s cousin, Chemical Ali, and 14 other former lieutenants of Saddam, began this week. The prosecutor accused them of perpetrating “ among the ugliest crimes ever committed against humanity in modern history.”

In a just world, George H.W. Bush and James Baker would also be in the dock.

Chemical Ali and his cohorts are being charged with the slaughter of tens of thousands of Shiites following the failed uprising of 1991. It is the third trial before the Iraqi Special Tribunal for crimes against humanity committed during Saddam’s reign.

But, from the beginning, the Tribunal has been a uniquely Kafkaesque affair: first because of the total disconnect between the drama being played out in the court room and the slaughter going on outside the heavily fortified Green Zone. Secondly, by the fact that the horrific history of the 1991 repression is being recounted as if it occurred in an international vacuum. No mention whatsoever of the complicity of the United States and President George H.W. Bush in those bloody events,

Though the British Press has made some mention of America’s role, as far as I can make out, the major American media –and that includes the New York Times, Washington Post, L.A. Times, CNN and the Associated Press— have not made even the faintest allusion to the U.S. involvement.

Read the rest of the post on the flip side »

Norman Solomon, AlterNet. August 16, 2007.
A new film, War Made Easy, reveals how the man in charge of CNN's news operation before the Iraq War kowtowed to the Pentagon. So what does he have to say for himself now?

*****************************

Days ago, the former CNN executive publicly defended himself against a portion of the "War Made Easy" film (based on my book of the same name) that has drawn much comment from viewers since the documentary's release earlier this summer.

As Inter Press Service reported, the movie shows "a news clip of Eason Jordan, a CNN News chief executive who, in an interview with CNN, boasts of the network's cadre of professional 'military experts.' In fact, CNN's retired military generals turned war analysts were so good, Eason said, that they had all been vetted and approved by the U.S. government."

Inter Press called the vetting-and-approval process "shocking" -- and added that "in a country revered for its freedom of speech and unfettered press, Eason's comments would infuriate any veteran reporter who upholds the most basic and important tenet of the journalistic profession: independence."

But Eason Jordan doesn't want us to see it that way. And he has now fired back via an article in IraqSlogger, which calls itself "the world's premier Iraq-focused Web site." Jordan runs that Web site.

The journalist who wrote the Aug. 14 article, Christina Davidson, was in an awkward spot: "War Made Easy" directly criticizes her boss, and it was the subject of the article.

Davidson's only assessment of the film that wasn't favorable had to do with its criticisms of Jordan. "While there's no doubt that journalistic laziness contributed to the uncritical re-broadcasting of the Bush administration's official line," she wrote, "Solomon takes it a little too far in trying to make the case that all of the cable networks were actively complicit in promoting the war. Solomon bases his reasoning primarily on one choice quote from Eason Jordan, former CNN news chief and current CEO of IraqSlogger's parent company, Praedict."

In fact, the film provides a wide range of evidence that "all of the cable networks were actively complicit in promoting the war" -- the result of chronic biases rather than "journalistic laziness."

Damn!  I deleted all that spam.  Sorry!

93.

FRED from OR
Sun, 08/26/07
2:55 pm

.....
We need a change of direction, change of policy, and end to the civil war, and the fighting to end, and a positive new direction for this diabled country....
--------------

Sounds very appropriate for "this disabled" country too (USA that is, except "civil war"....which is bloodless...for now).

Here is the "new direction": "OUT NOW" IS TOO LATE ALREADY!

Fresno Bee Sunday Front Page Headline Story Late Final Edition

08/26/07 04:52:07

Paintball for...Jesus?
Mariposa residents show their true colors over a proposal to bring church-sponsored games to county-owned land.

By Diana Marcum / The Fresno Bee

MARIPOSA -- This is a mountain town where there's a Bible verse painted over a pizza parlor door and a local politician keeps a cardboard cutout of John Wayne holding a Winchester rifle in his office as proof of fealty to the NRA.

But a proposal to bring "Paintball for Jesus" to public land has some people riled.

"I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something in my upbringing as a Methodist, but Paintball for Jesus? God help us all. Seriously, this teaches bad habits of shooting each other," said Mariposa County Supervisor Brad Aborn, 71, the John Wayne fan who is a former Vietnam War Navy helicopter pilot.

Church youth leader Jeff Tomerlin contends, however, that paintball is the perfect ministry.

His church, New Life Christian Fellowship, wants to play paintball on 15 acres of county land.

"I really wanted to do something for the youth where they could see godly adults acting as mentors. We thought about going the skateboard route, but none of us are skateboarders," said Tomerlin, 45.

After church on the third Sunday of every month, a group of teens and adults from New Life cook up a big meal of hot dogs, give testimonies about Jesus in their life, suit up in camouflage and grab donated paint-shooting guns ("markers" in paintball terms).

They have affectionately nicknamed their paintball and Jesus games PBJ....lots of photos and full story: http://www.fresnobee.com/263/story/12203...

http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/59714/?page=3

The Toxic Chemistry of Everyday Products

....So, I think one of the issues of the toxicity of everyday products is that so much of this stuff we don't know. We don't know because the manufacturers are not required to tell us or tell the government what's in their products. No. 1 is to require a full disclosure as to the substances that are in all the products that we buy every day so that people can decide. Americans have every right to ask of their government what's going on.

============

the 1994 Rovian-named Proprietary Protection Act gave Americans Corporations a tremendous legal tool to do just the opposite.

Susan Rowe
Sun, 08/26/07
3:12 pm

===========

One more symptom of American Taliban Jihad our-shit-dont-stink mentality

Here is the "new direction": "OUT NOW" IS TOO LATE ALREADY!

========

So is ending the civil war [too late already], which kills many more people than our military does - and will continue and worsen after "out now."

"out now" is not enough.  We have to do something to end the bloodshed in order to get out now.  And we have to do it now instead of bickering.  There are probably 2/3 in Congress to pass a Biden-Geld bipartisan exit strategy. 

We should be working to build bridges instead of confrontation.

DELIGHTED TO HEAR CHARLE GRAPSKI IS FREE!

CELEBRATE!

HOPE!

LIGHT A CANDLE FOR CHARLIE GRAPSKI ~

http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng&gi=GRAPS 

seashell please be careful what you post on Sunday when there is no one at HQ's to fix it

my wife has been researching geneology on an ancestor that fought in the Revolutionary War and was given a land grant in Shelby County Ohio and her ggg grandfather had four sons who fought in the Civil War in a unit that produced two future Presidents Hayes and McKinley

she had researched the living line but found out that two of the four sons were captured at the battle of Cloyd Mtn, and sent to Andersonville prison where the 16 year old youngest in the family died

I bring that up because that part of Ohio has voted the Party of Lincoln ever since. The odd part is that the other side has switched to the Republican party part that represents the flying of Confederate battle flags over state capitols. That war still lays smouldering under politics in the south around issues of race and a ticket of Edwards/Obama might be able to put that all to bed. (or in the least uncover the divisions) In Iowa the Party that freed the slaves now wants to lock up immigrants.

I think the Kurd, Sunni, Shia divisions in Iraq can be understood in those terms at least a little bit, and southern Republicans (with a Confederate Flag on their pickup) might be OK with rounding up illegals at gunpoint like Trancredo talks about when he campaigns in Iowa

"Can't we all just get along." might work in Iraq too, or they might just be in a place more like where we were 150 years ago

...There are probably 2/3 in Congress to pass a Biden-Geld bipartisan exit strategy.

==============

CORRECTION - according to Biden, the focus is now on the Biden-Boxer-Brownback legislation, no longer the "Biden-Geld Plan".

The Sunnis killed tens of thousands Shia after Desert Storm and they would have killed even more Kurds if we hadn't given protection under the leadership of General Garner.

we are now asking the resistance to Saddam (remember him the bad guy) to just forgetaboutit and join hands and sing kumbaya with the Saddam loyalists

they have to be saying "yeah right", so to that extent Biden is probably right that the Shia will bow to joint Sunni rule "over my dead body"

I still don't get how sorting that out can or should be done by American troops.

out. now.

Phil Specht
Sun, 08/26/07
3:32 pm

"Can't we all just get along." might work in Iraq too, or they might just be in a place more like where we were 150 years ago

==============

Good points/analogy but I think because of the ethnic differences, it is more akin to pre-invasion Bosnia.  The fact that the neocons scrambled Humpty-Dumpty Hussein, and made every conceivable strategic mistake afterwards, does not mean progressive Americans cannot salvage what good there is left in the country and with the international community, end the civil war and bloodshed, like we did in Bosnia.

Just because the Democrats and Republicans both have the same military does not mean we cannot change the way we use that military in Iraq, and then exit the country in a responsible way - and we are responsible.

I still don't get how sorting that out can or should be done by American troops.

out. now.

=========

From this point in time looking forward, you can the same arguments against what we did in Bosnia, and many in both parties did, including our military experts.  We need to admiration to Clinton, Holbrooke, and Biden for swimming against the tide and following their consciences.

The Sunnis killed tens of thousands Shia after Desert Storm and they would have killed even more Kurds if we hadn't given protection under the leadership of General Garner.

we are now asking the resistance to Saddam (remember him the bad guy) to just forgetaboutit and join hands and sing kumbaya with the Saddam loyalists

they have to be saying "yeah right", so to that extent Biden is probably right that the Shia will bow to joint Sunni rule "over my dead body"

==============

We saw Japanese, Germans, Bosnians, Rwandans, go through a metamorphosis and do just that [join hands and sing kumbaya] as well as the children at the end of Lord of the Flies.  Such is human nature when the social environment changes.

Human nature tends to look forward - your statement is a good example of how the "out-now-and-nothing-else" crowd has become too cynical to even call themselves "liberal" or "progressive"

I am sure I can depend on Sitka to quote me out-of-context on this post.

Got email back from someone who is going to show Charle Grapski the Candle Page we have for him.

PLEASE GO LIGHT A CANDLE FOR CHARLIE!

http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng&gi=GRAPS 

Thanks for lighting a candle, Susan! ♥

BBL

OOPS!  Sorry!  Forgot to make this clickable!

LIGHT A CANDLE FOR CHARLIE GRAPSKI

http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng&gi=GRAPS 

Good point, Phil, thanks.

Paintball for Jesus.  How Charming.  The next olympic games will have an event called "Waterboarding." 

103

my wife has been researching geneology on an ancestor that fought in the Revolutionary War

Phi, 

Geneology can be veeeery addictive stuff. And always interesting, especially when one runs into the black sheep or well-known politicians in the family they didn't know existed:))

The most interesting find I made was a son my gr aunt had that no one in the family talked about. According to all of them the aunt only had one daughter who I knew. But I found records of this boy in the files of Chicago births and deaths. He (Jimmy) had died at age 12. I wrote to the daughter (my cousin) and she acknowledged this boy had existed. It's very sad to think they would simply pretend he didn't ever exist rather than talk about his birth and death.

Reed in VT

Charlie's out of jail. I think we should all have that beer with Reed and bring Charlie one too.

I hope he knows we all keep track of him and think about his plight. The more the better to bring pressure on the powers that shouldn't be in Alachua and Alachua County.

Phi, 

Geneology can be veeeery addictive stuff. And always interesting,

============

My maternal grandfather's parents were mercenaries on the border of Austria and Italy and fought for whomever paid them the most money.  The revolutionary leader, Garibaldi, a contemporary of Lincoln, was trying to nationalize a provincial-minded  country by giving generous cash stipends to northern Italians to move to the south and vice versa.

It was an ingenious plan.  My great-grandparents declared themselves to be Italian and took the bait and moved south.   Their son thought there was no opportunity in Southern Italy, so as a teenager, found a girlfriend, emmigrated to New Jersey around the turn of the century, made some money, and sent her a ocean-liner ticket to join him.

Unfortunately, that side of my family turned out to be right wing Republicans today.

seashell :-)
Sun, 08/26/07
4:23 pm

=======

touche

I just saw a robin in our yard, probably one of two that we are lucky enough to have hang out here in the winter. Our resident crow "Heckel" is giving them the once over.

It must be getting too hot up north even for the robins since we usually don't see any here in Central Florida before December.

93.

FRED from OR
Sun, 08/26/07
2:55 pm

...both mantras, one Left, one Right, ignore the future consequences of a road to nowhere.

-----------
I love this care about "future consequences" while ignoring the current, the real ones...

Isn’t that amazingly similar to the stance of those defenders of life within mother’s womb while keeping killings of those who are outside of it? Correct, that’s because of hypocrisy of both.

thanks my freinds

العاب فلاش

شبكة

منتديات

فيديو

افلام

تحميل افلام

العاب بنات

العاب

موقع الملك عبدالله بن عبدالعزيز

دليل مواقع

برنامج | منتدى | مكتبة البرامج | مكتبة الخطوط | برامج مشروحه | برامج مسنجر | msn messenger | افضل 10 | برامج نوكيا | غرائب وعجائب العالم | الصور المرعبة | الفيديو والصوتيات | أخبار التقنية | كتب  الكترونيه | ألعاب الفيديو | افلام اجنبيه مترجمه | برامج الجوال | العربية والأجنبية | برامج وتطبيقات جوال | الأفلام الأجنبية | الأفلام العربية | المسلسلات الأجنبية | افلام انمي والكارتون | البرامج الكاملة | فتاوى  مقالات| سوفت | تحميل اغاني | تحميل أفلام | جوال | بلوتوث | البرامج المشروحه | أختراق | التطوير  جديده | جنس والصحة | موقع | هبال | سياحة ومسابقات | الوليد | ديكور |

I just want to say that I'm all for people following their conscience when it's their own hide that's at stake.  It's when other people's lives are on the balance that I really prefer  a commitment to some enduring principles, like "Thou shalt not kill"

Ayad Allawi is a terrorist.  He and his gang set off car bombs in Iraq that they'd learned how to make from the CIA.

Since they're the ones that introduced the craft, we have no way of knowing who's doing it now.

BTW, do you know why car bombs are more "effective" than bombs dropped out of the air? Because, in addition to the fire and shrapnel and force they dispell through the air, their contact with the ground sets off a shock wave which can crack foundations and cause buildings to crumble at a considerable distance.  Indeed, tests conducted at Sandia showed that a nuclear plant could be vulnerable if a large enough secure perimeter is not maintained--which it isn't. 

93.

FRED from OR
Sun, 08/26/07
2:55 pm

...both mantras, one Left, one Right, ignore the future consequences of a road to nowhere.

-----------
I love this care about "future consequences" while ignoring the current, the real ones...

Isn’t that amazingly similar to the stance of those defenders of life within mother’s womb while keeping killings of those who are outside of it? Correct, that’s because of hypocrisy of both.

============

that's off-the-wall. 

You make comparisons between totally unrelated issues, simply by categorizing both  issues as not of the groupthink ideology.

Are you incapable of discussing  any specific issue without  deviating to another unrelated issue?  Maybe it is because you have no counterpoint to my points?

khaleed m7shsh
Sun, 08/26/07
5:15 pm
___________________________________________________________________________

Crikey mate........with that kind of hand writing, you must be a Doctor..............

119.
former
Sun, 08/26/07
5:10 pm
================

 No one on this blog is more vocal about post-partem support for single mothers and hardship families than I have.

And I don't support any ban on pregnancy termination...the only thing I would like to see is more blind studies on safety and health effects of induced abortion, especially in the second and third trimester.

For decades we have been calling it a "women's health" issue and yet we have virtually no unbiased truly scientific studies on the health effects of induced abortion.

Khaleed, for those of us who don't read Arabic, a translation please.  What are you thanking us for?

123.  It's arabic spam.  The links go to games, videos, etc.  Best to ignore.

OK, I have figured something out.  If the CIA trained the terrorists in the use of car bombs in Afghanistan and Iraq (Ayad Allawi) as has already been admitted, it is technically correct that the terrorists associated with planning the destruction of WTC were connected to the terrorists operating in Iraq during the administration of Saddam Hussein.  And, it seems not unreasonable to speculate that like Timothy McVeigh, the troops  (special forces) might bring their "skills" back home, if they have to leave the Middle East.

So, everything the wingnuts keep repeating is based on fact.  There's only one thing left out--the terrorists are ours.  You know, it's like the reality of the lion tamer--if you don't keep feeding the lion red meat, it's likely to turn on you.  Or, bite the hand that feeds it, if you will. 

yes, howard deserves the golden vertebrae award!  go, chairman dean!

**************

folks, our friends in australia are having a particularly bad flu season.  it's a good time to prep ourselves for what's heading our way.......not a hundred per cent certain, but pretty damn close. 

a few years back, southern cal was blind-sided by a flu strain from down under, which was not part of that year's vaccine package.  funeral homes could not keep up with services for the elderly victims, who had been felled by the seasonal flu.

see EFFECT MEASURE

122.

FRED from OR
Sun, 08/26/07
5:39 pm

Reply to this
119.
former
Sun, 08/26/07
5:10 pm

Reply to this


93.

FRED from OR
Sun, 08/26/07
2:55 pm

...both mantras, one Left, one Right, ignore the future consequences of a road to nowhere.

-----------
I love this care about "future consequences" while ignoring the current, the real ones...

Isn’t that amazingly similar to the stance of those defenders of life within mother’s womb while keeping killings of those who are outside of it? Correct, that’s because of hypocrisy of both.

============

Are you incapable of discussing any specific issue without deviating to another unrelated issue? Maybe it is because you have no counterpoint to my points?
------------

I'm capable...still, yet..., lol.

There are no points here...., hypocrisy only, exactly HOW those "unrelated" issues are related - through pure hypocrisy.

former
Sun, 08/26/07
5:57 pm

===========

you scream "HYPOCRISY" but you make no intelligent case for how the Biden-Boxer-Brownback legislation is hypocritical - your contention seems to be base on ideological disposition rather than presenting an intelligent case for debate.

21. Reed in VT very edgy

22. Annilow No


There is a new thread: http://www.blogforamerica.com/view/21971...

124.

FRED from OR
Sun, 08/26/07
5:47 pm

...
No one on this blog is more vocal about post-partem support for single mothers and hardship families than I have.
---------

I would leave that "fact" for this blog to verify.

Modesty apparently is a rare commodity in our modern times...even for those who used to discuss issues exclusively on "intelligent" manner.

126.

The links might actually download viruses or spyware.

You are right, Monica, best to ignore.

Glad to see Howard's stance on FL's primary. I have a weird philosophy about primaries, and that is this:

Start with the smallest states and set budgets that all campaigns must adhere to. This is the only way to allow candidates into the process who aren't rich and/or "connected".

Set up a process that awards delegates according to percentage of votes received, so that no one can lock up the nomination until all the primaries are complete.

I really think the states should go from smallest population to largest, which means that Iowa certainly wouldn't be first and maybe not NH either??

-- volney

pinsocal *
Sun, 08/26/07
5:56 pm

==========

thanks for the warning.  I'll watch my two-year-old daughter and my 88-year-old mother.

FREE DOWNLOAD FOR

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the virus protection has automatic daily updates.

129.

FRED from OR
Sun, 08/26/07
6:05 pm

...you make no intelligent case for how the Biden-Boxer-Brownback legislation is hypocritical - your contention seems to be base on ideological disposition rather than presenting an intelligent case for debate.
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My intelligent case is simple: EVERYTHING produced by occupying power is hypocritical by definition, because their "produce” pursues interests of occupiers not occupied.

Calling it "ideological disposition" does not make it false. It is still true and therefore IS intelligent.

SORRY - CORRECTION

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My intelligent case is simple: EVERYTHING produced by occupying power is hypocritical by definition, because their "produce” pursues interests of occupiers not occupied.

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That's not a case for the debate of my point, that's a gross generalization that may be true.  But Biden-Boxer-Brownback is a plan for ending ethnic civil war and leaving the country in a healing mode

BBB is not a case for continuing the occupation.

138.

FRED from OR
Sun, 08/26/07
6:25 pm

My intelligent case is simple: EVERYTHING produced by occupying power is hypocritical by definition, because their "produce” pursues interests of occupiers not occupied.

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That's not a case for the debate of my point, that's a gross generalization that may be true.
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Here I may only agree, "that's not a case for the debate of my point".

Truth does not require the debate.

Truth does not require the debate.

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but I say your "truth"  does not apply to BBB - that's the debate, not whether an occupation or "war on terror" in Iraq, is justified.  On that we agree.

138.

FRED from OR
Sun, 08/26/07
6:25 pm


BBB is not a case for continuing the occupation.
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It IS the case to pursue interests of occupiers by means other than occupation. Therefore "my" truth (or simply truth, since truth doesn't have ownership) still applies here and still doesn't require debate.

Bring all of the collaborators here, and get the F out~!