So powerful:  Dean is first. 

The Debate is on...

Common Sense is risen. 

Can't top that, Paine.  LOL

Back to the meaning of 'is'

KOS diary as alternative to Rove. 

Gravel is a breath of fresh air.

Richardson is one who should grow on those not immediately persuaded; he comes across well in person (and I thing on the little screen), as Phil has reported. 

Sen Clinton is well dressed.  Nice color suit and subtle necklace.

Hil says Dems know how to win: better vision/how we help the middle-class get "there". 

When Edwards attacks the Insurance PACS and special interests, George shuts him down.

"...I wish those on this stage who debated and authorized this war asked these questions *before* ..."

~Obama

IMHO  the debate questions were asked, have been *present* ever since, and prove the Bush "bus in the ditch" Republicans.

The Republicans pushed this war: not the Democrats.

Now some faction of Independents and doltish citizens allied themselves with the Republican will for war... 

I think 7 is in some way a proof.

Gravel on Love is a transcript search!

I control this thread!

See:  there was a day when a Rocket ran through here.

"Silence is defening in the room"

~Obama

deafening

There's always more audience than you think.  It's a mistake to assume no-one is listening.

Governor Crist appointed a Democrat as head of the Dept. of Children and Family...DCF.  But not much has changed.    How in the world did this woman with her background get a license to run a group home for elderly and disabled?  This was tragic.  Bob Butterworth needs to get on the ball..

Florida: 18 residents of boarding home found in windowless rooms, no air conditioning

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1440

Dodd is good.  I would be happy with Dodd as POTUS.

Haha, Lamont might finish out his term in the Senate, which necessitate the removal of Lieberman from any chairmanship, or more. 

It's really hard to argue with people who have no sense of before and after--who exist only in the moment.

When the past is irrelevant and the future is not here, no argument can have traction.  If, in addition. responsibility is located elsewhere (God's will), what recourse does one have?  That's why it's important to keep belief separate from deed.   

Depends on what is is.  

The post in reference was but one in a series of provocations, which proved effective.  After all, I rule this thread! 

I would be happy with Dodd as POTUS

That seems to be a rather common reaction.  Now he just has to convince a lot of people that being happy is a worthwhile goal.  LOL

18.

I just thought you were feeling lonely.  Still haven't finished my disquisition on the meaning of 'is' 

"money...and I know where to get it, and I will take that action"

~Kucinich

Excellent!  Youtube, please?  ...for posterity.  To me, it sounded like the balls to act - to realize the legislation and administration of the ...er. Democratic Party Platform(?) 

By a long shot Dennis K. has plans to accomplish all the things that the others give lip service to (of course Gravel is as correct as Dennis, but isn't explaining well his course).

I am very saddened by everyone except Dennis and Gravel on the boyking's war on our troops/grab for Iraqi resources.

Government is supposed to be action--to DO the will of the people.

Oh! 

per 21  = Progressive core values

Common Sense 

"Government is a product of Society"

Paine, I'm sorry to have to disagree with you on Richardson. They all have some gift for gab, otherwise they wouldn't be where they are. That shouldn't be the criteria. Their record and accomplishments, not just claiming something on his resume. His record of cryonism, growing and wasting government, corporate interest tax paid funding over people governing, secrecy and control should be frightful to folks.

Unfortunately, plans are not sufficient.  Dennis K would have to be a unitary executive since he apparently is short on persuasive skills.

Human governance

Gravel says that Representative government is broken 

Gravel favors The People equiped as law makers 

Yes, Monica, I guess he isn't happy with the downturn he's experiencing and using the debates and forums as the reason. When one has to answer questions, or attempt to, the retail politicing that we want, he prefers more of the speech setting.

This is a post from his campaign manager. They sight Obama having had to participate in so many already, of course, so has the other canidates, if they were lucky. Funny, some are trying to get in them to be heard, like Gravel, and then you have the ones who don't want to. Something tells me Governor Richardson won't be far behind after his poor performances, especially the last Human Rights/LOGO Forum. LOL

"Debates and forums going forward
By David Plouffe - Aug 18th, 2007 at 11:06 am EDT

[snip]
Unfortunately, we simply cannot run the kind of campaign we want and need to, engaging with voters in the early states and February 5 states, if our schedule is dictated by dozens of forums and debates. Ultimately, the one group left out of the current schedule is the voters and they are the ones who ask the toughest questions and most deserve to have those questions answered face to face.

Therefore, after this week, we will only be attending the five DNC debates through the sanctioning period of December 10, Univision, and the two Iowa debates previously mentioned. Candidate forums - where candidates appear sequentially will be considered, but we are unlikely to accept many of these. Instead, Barack will spend his time answering questions directly from voters in places like Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, Nevada, and elsewhere. We simply cannot continue to hopscotch from forum to forum and run a campaign true to the bottom up movement for change that propelled Barack into this race.

After the sanctioning period, there will undoubtedly be a large number of debates scheduled in the early states and in February 5 states. We will make decisions on those as we get closer, but will clearly be doing a healthy number of debates after the sanctioning period.

Many friends and terrific organizations are sponsoring or planning to sponsor debates and forums. So this is not an easy decision for us to execute. But it simply won't work to navigate this one by one. We felt we needed to make our approach clear and consistent.

I think this approach will be better for the voters and the campaign."

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community...

26.

One of the things I am going to be looking for in this selection process is the candidates' ability to evolve through the process.  Like Linda's definition of Richardson has obviously evolved from an emotional or gut reaction to specific, measurable, behaviors.  

Which is not to say that Linda should be a candidate, but that she's got a characteristic I'm looking for. 

27.

However the majority of those on the stage lack the judgement to see through, and resist, the persuasive powers of vested interests and advisors.

Frankly, i'd rather see Dennis with the current powers the others have unwisely given GWB, than those who are so unwise being trusted to dismantle them.

Linda, no aspirant has found my favor.  I like 'em all.  I like some things about Richardson.    Just think Richardson has a creeper effect on some (like me FYI)}.

15.

floridagal

Bob Butterworth, who spoke at our last year's Claude Pepper dinner, was handed a huge mess in the DCF by the Jeb people. Every single incident of neglect will never be seen by anyone in charge, that's an impossible job, unless there is local oversight. Again, Jeb changed all that so that there wasn't any oversight either.

Given enough people and money to work with, I am confident Butterworth would do an excellent job, even though it isn't something he has done before. But Crist is not the good guy he is being made out to be. Butterworth will probably never get what he needs. I wonder if he will even stay on a job that is underfunded and undermanned, doomed for failure.

~~~~~~~~

Ima,

No, your not alone, just reading along with you. Good job! Steph doesn't come on here until for another 1/2 hour so it is hardly 'live" here.

Agree with you about Dodd, he emits a comfort zone as opposed to anxiety from all the others.

28.

Yes, but direct democracy is very inefficient.  I, for one, can't wait until things settle down enough so I can attend to other stuff. 

I think George S. did a great dis-service trying to start a fight right off the bat and asking the first question in such away as to frame Obama in a negative light.

I'm proud that none took his bait.

We have an excellent field.

Monica Smith
Sun, 08/19/07
10:25 am


The only point i agree with Richardson on is that the office of the President is no place for learning. In my opinion the nomination race is no place to 'evolve'. Either you have the backbone and judgement or you don't, it's too late by now to develope that.

Apparently youthink that the one who learns best to adapt to a campaign will make the best administrator of our great nation.
I disagree strongly. The qualification for the office is sound judgement not in manuvering.

The people get their representation through hearings and over-sight. I do think Dodd and Richardson really get the treat posed by the unitary executive, but I'm convinced that this group fairly represents the breath of the party on all of the issues. Everyone should be able to find a candidate to support in that group.

The Democratic Party won that debate.

31. Monica :) (folks are wiping their brow in relief at this moment)

33. paine, yes. I do appreciate your commentary on the debate, please continue. We out here in the West don't get that debate til this afternoon.

29.

It was this decisiion which led me to suggest that both Obama and Clinton have been putting the cart before the horse.  NOW they want to start interacting with voters???

Edwards was here in 2006.  Kucinich and Dodd were doing it last winter.  (the first time I met Dodd, we had to negotiate icy, unshoveled sidewalks and he was wearing a sweater with a tiny moth hole) 

37. Phil, Richardson understands it, because he tries to govern the same way. He even tried to get his hands on the states pension fund to use.

21.

By a long shot Dennis K. has plans to accomplish all the things that the others give lip service to . . .

The problem with Dennis is he is very short of actually getting anything done that he proposes. Where is his leadership in the House?

I like what he says, most do, but he too is only giving lip service, saying everything we want to hear, offering very little about how to do it except to either "bring them home" or "cancel NAFTA" -- those are not plans.

The Debte was over @the 22 minute mark just past

39. uh yeah [wink, wink]

39.

Dodd, we had to negotiate icy, unshoveled sidewalks and he was wearing a sweater with a tiny moth hole) 

LOL  I think that is something we might admire in a candidate, kinda reminiscent of Dean with his ancient JCP suit.

36.

Since change is a constant, judgement has to be able to recognize new information and adjust accordingly.  Core values are another matter.  Bush Two has none; Cheney has one--power. 

42. Oh, geez, sorry. I just poured my 2nd cup o'joe

Good; very good debate by the Dems.  They have held together as a fortress, while speaking to the voters, against the slime that is the CM in America.  George Steponmyhogalot is but a pawn.

Linda,  the dabate was from 9AM to @ 1030AM

37.

Everyone should be able to find a candidate to support in that group.

Without a doubt, a good slate of candidates. Would be better of course with a Dean and/or a Gore in it though. But that is only useless wishful thinking again.

Deaniac-for sure. Can you imagine given the opportunity with Richardson as the nominee? The right wing wouldl have a FIELD day with him...unless they enjoy his Corporatism so much they would agree not to. Folks better start their digging now. Like checking in to his closets...favorite hang outs, like the El Dorado Hotel, so they aren't surprised so much. We have spent so much time on "hype" and not paying attention to real issues, just when we are getting some real answers, they start pulling away. It's ok, because now the voters are indicating they are tired of this. So much time and dollaars wasted on a beauty pageant.

On Meet The Press

The moderator is wholly unable to meet Rove at the mat.  Media personalities have no weight:  no compelling reason for the viewer to trust and get behind.

I'll save my response til all have seen it. No one won or lost the debate so little was changed by it. What has changed is that the candidates have crisscrossed Iowa in part because of the debate being here and polls of likely caucus goers in the next few weeks willl start to mean something, which they haven't so far.

David Broder's column today pushing Huckabee in every way possible because of his second place win in Iowa.

He did not include one word however about Huckabee's anti-evolution beliefs. Apparently Iowans didn't know about that.

Can anyone see a president who claims he doesn't believe in evolution, which of course would have to include disbelieving global warming exists and all the other  great perks the country would be getting.

Fom HEP:

UPDATE ON CHARLIE!

DONATIONS
The Grapski Defense website is down until Charlie gets out, but contributions to the defense fund can be sent to: Grapski Defense Fund, PO Box 190, Alachua FL 32616. Call Carol at 386-418-3791 for more information.

CHARLIE MOVED TO INFIRMARY!
Charlie has been moved to the jail infirmary, probably due to publicity from the Herald interview. He is bruised and battered but his main concern now is getting out of jail.

Attorney Joe Little will be requesting a bond reduction hearing on Monday, and the State Attorney will probably argue against any reduction of the $60,000 bond that has been set.

On Monday the judge will be asked to release Charlie on his own recognizance. Supporters who wish to help Charlie can call or email State Attorney Bill Cervone and ask that he allow Charlie's immediate release.

The State Attorney knows that Charlie is not a flight risk (believe me, Charlie wants his day in court!) and he also knows that Charlie poses no danger to anyone (there is already a "no contact" order in place that prohibits Charlie from going to City Hall or making any contact with Alachua officials). We're hoping to at least get a reduction of bond down to the $10,000, which means we could get him out with $1000.

State Attorney Bill Cervone
Eighth Judicial Circuit
120 West University Avenue
Gainesville, Florida 32602
352-374-3670
cervonew@SAO8.ORG

JAIL INFORMATION

Please don't deposit money in Charlie's jail account. That is being taken care of here and we will need the funds for the bond and defense. Messages to the jail should be positive and non-confrontational, simply stating your concern for Charlie's health and wellbeing, and letting jail officials know he has friends out here who are concerned. Sheriff Sadie Darnell is not the problem, and she's probably looking into what happened to Charlie.

Alachua County Sheriff's Office - Department of The Jail
3333 N.E. 39th Ave - Gainesville, Florida 32609
Interim Director: Acting Major Tony Canchola
Tel. 352-491-4460
tcanchola@alachuasheriff.org

ASK FLORIDA GOVERNOR CHARLIE CRIST TO INVESTIGATE POLICE ABUSE IN ALACHUA (a special prosecutor is needed who will conduct an independent investigation into police misconduct and public corruption in Alachua.)

Governor Charlie Crist
420 E. Jefferson Street
Tallahassee, FL 32301
Tel. 850-222-7920
Fax: 850-907-1267
Grapski Defense Committee | 08.19.07 - 12:45 am

50.

37. I didn't notice that line about everyone should be able to find a candidate in that group, until Joan recopied it.

Why? That's like a false choice being given by anyone that has their own preferences and saying "they're all good and one of them surely would make you happy". If they don't share the same principles supported by their own actions, no. I can't be forced to marry someone another person put a group of people put together on a blind date. Their idea of who I should have is not is not the same of the person having the ideals and values I hold dear.

Joan* In*Florida
Sun, 08/19/07
10:34 am

Are you surprised that an anti-war populist, liberal if you wish, doesn't get support from even Democrats, even when they are in the majority?

... having the 'crowd' not on your hip is sometimes the best indicator of one not being 'as usual'.

54.

And so just another opportunity for the media to push the so-called top tier candidates they themselves have chosen in their own meaningless polls.

Maybe I'll skip this debate too.

59.

Linda,

Then perhaps you can find someone in another party to vote for. I doubt if there are going to be any more Dem candidates jumping in the race.

Joan* In*Florida

>

That's good; the voter should be aware of exactly who rejects the earth in favor of a faith in the Adam and Eve story. 

53, 54 . Monica, TERRIBLE, disgusting, really. So unfair. They keep their pushing.

61.

Joan* In*Florida
Sun, 08/19/07
10:55 am

Reply to this


59.

Linda,

Then perhaps you can find someone in another party to vote for.


---->> Thank you. Or maybe we should find candidates that better represent my party.

Maybe I'll skip this debate too.

>

Hey, it was a good Debate.  Don't think one should miss it, because -especially with that tack- one would rely on the comments of others. 

What is is?

bbl 

56.

Donna,

I wrote to Crist several months ago during Charlie's last incarceration. I was immediately rebuffed. Maybe outsiders might get his attention.

I am writing to our only Dem in the cabinet, Alex Sink, and also the FDLE (Florida Department of Law Enforcement) whose job it is among other things is, I believe, to oversee these kinds of police brutality. The ACLU is another possibility.

Florida Department of Law Enforcement
P.O. Box 1489
Tallahassee, FL 32302-1489

• Phone: 1-850-410-7000

• E-Mail: info@fdle.state.fl.us

I may have said that slightly differently; Linda.

The progressive reform agenda has a representative in Dennis Kucinich, but if you find him a flawed candidate you may not have one.

Bill Richardson articulates a believable Out. Now. exit plan that sounds workable for ending the war in Iraq, but if he is flawed in some other way, and you don't like Kucinich then do you settle for Gravel?

There is no Dean or Gore in the field (or Feingold for that matter) but they are representative of the broad strokes of what it means to be a Democrat rather than a Republican.

I really liked Bill Richardson's answer to the farmer's question, but just because I'm a farmer doesn't make  me a one issue voter and Dodd had a good answer as did others.

The lack of emphasis on fixing global warming just might bring Al Gore into the race yet Linda. I have told all of the candidates that if Gore gets in I will be supporting him. He would be an immediate front runner even now if he were to enter. That isn't true of anyone else.

Monica Smith
Sun, 08/19/07
10:39 am

I'm sorry i didn't look up 'judgement' in the dictionary, i just assumed it took into account current facts. The kind of judgement i respect however does not look to posturing, or legacy, and all that political consideration cr@p.

Joan* In*Florida
Sun, 08/19/07
10:55 am

... just so you know, love ya mind ya, you seem to think that others here aren't allowed their own opinion. At least that is the impression i get from you often.

I'm down with your sensitivity to attacks on Dems, and i am to when te attacks are from r's or media. When regular folk are making their arguments from a loyal patriot position that is to be respected.

Those of us who aren't as long in the tooth as others are no less valid. There are no monopolies on liberty and activism toward such.

love ya, mean it, but we have no gatekeepers here

Phil :)

Web definitions for is

LOL

BREAKING NEWS

National Hurrican Center issues 

new information on Dean's path. 

Using Karl Rove's attack on Hillary's high negatives and asking other candidates if they agreed with Rove was a rovian question.

Rove of course was inaccurate and untruthfull because Abraham Lincoln had higher negatives than positives  at this stage of his first term and went on to get elected.

Just wanted to see how this image transfers.  Someone's missing. 

new information on Dean's path.

>

Dean's path is readily apparent.  Trouble is some would believe they have the power to stop Dean's path.  Can't!  Dean's power is building swells: big swells with consequence. 

Morning :-) Powerful firsties, Paine!

We had a *great* day yesterday! Sessions on IRV, framing, Katrina, outsourcing, Gizmo, and Dfest planning & goals. Jessica will post pics later.

Watching the "debate" -- this is not a debate. Debates allow each person to have equal time and they do not have moderator's playing tapes of something someone previously said somewhere.

15 minutes into this, it gets a big 0.

Obama's bumper car remark did spark the morning though. Still someone I would like to have a beer with (if I drank beer which I don't).

Edwards always has a "slightly different view"

76. very nice work.


77. yes.


____________________

but, I gotta' say. I'm really worried for Jamaica. The people there will not be able to protect themselves from Dean's destruction. The poverty and their living conditions have gotten so bad over these years. Seeing the downhill changes I've seen from the 80's to now, is almost surreal. I had such a hard time seeing it all last year, I didn't even want to hang around. Too much loss will happen if this hurricane barrels down on them.

I remember in the early 80's when one of the destructive hurricanes (I don't remember the name) was hitting the carribean and we were getting messages over Eastern airlines computers basically screaming for help and then communications being cut. I worked for a caribbean tour operator on Miami Beach. The islands are so vulnerable.

Catch ya later... we're going to give Gizmo another workout and then it'll be time to take Subway to the bus station.

Have a great day!

♥'s to all

Kindness is free!

Oh, so our Vermont campers are just now rising?  Loafers!

Well, I'm into the shower and off to help improve some brick steps (it's like the sixth day of this!).   Grinding is a young persons job; my back is too trash to be as effective as I would prefer, but I do what I can) 

Shoulda built new, but for the cost. 

Be good y'all.  Will check in as I can. 

LOL - we've been up a couple hours :-P Jessica made us pancakes w/ blueberries she and her mom picked.

Joan* In*Florida

>

may be a zero from where you sit, but we get something here from you and that's greater than zero.  

Take care of that back and the rest of ya, Paine {{{hugs}}}

later...

Be Well, Jamaica!

That debate got off to a bad start because the moderator tried to start a fight instead of a debate.

It was a meaningful dialogue and will add to the national debate as to who should lead our country's change of direction.

I'd advise watching.

no one came out the winner so if you are partial to one or another you might be disappointed, they all did well

Be well and have fun Thankful.

I'm outtie too.

ciao! 

FRANK RICH ON ROVE'S DEPARTURE

The rise of YouTube certifies the passing of Mr. Rove's era, a cultural changing of the guard in the digital age. Mr. Rove made his name in direct-mail fund-raising and with fierce top-down message management. As the Internet erodes snail mail, so it upends direct mail. As YouTube threatens a politician's ability to rigidly control a message, so it threatens the Rove ethos that led Mr. Bush to campaign at "town hall" meetings attended only by hand-picked supporters.

It's no coincidence that this new culture is also threatening the Beltway journalistic establishment that celebrated Mr. Rove's invincibility well past its expiration date (much as it did James Carville's before him), extolling what Joshua Green, in his superb new Rove article in The Atlantic, calls the Cult of the Consultant. The YouTube video of Mr. Rove impersonating a rapper at one of those black-tie correspondents' dinners makes the Washington press corps look even more antediluvian than he is.

Last weekend's Iowa straw poll was a more somber but equally anachronistic spectacle. Again, it's a young conservative commentator, Ryan Sager, writing in The New York Sun, who put it best: "The face of the Republican Party in Iowa is the face of a losing party, full of hatred toward immigrants, lust for government subsidies, and the demand that any Republican seeking the office of the presidency acknowledge that he's little more than Jesus Christ's running mate."

That face, at once contemptuous and greedy and self-righteous, is Karl Rove's face. Unless someone in his party rolls out a revolutionary new product, it is indelible enough to serve as the Republican brand for a generation.

MISSIE BEATTIE-GOOD POINT

http://www.counterpunch.org/beattie08182007.html

Those who strap on explosives or fill their vehicles with ammo to kill and maim as many people as possible share certain defining commonalities: they are destructive of themselves and others; they ignore reason; and they are not guided by the normal mores of society.

It is not a leap to say that George Bush fits comfortably into these parameters, with one exception--Bush's self destruction will come not from an actual detonation that shatters his body but through the judgment of his presidency as the worst in the history of this country.

70.

Deaniac,

you (Joan) seem to think that others here aren't allowed their own opinion. At least that is the impression i get from you often.

I'm down with your sensitivity to attacks on Dems, and i am to when te attacks are from r's or media. When regular folk are making their arguments from a loyal patriot position that is to be respected.

I have a very a strong opinion on those few who continually bash the same candidate over and over. It gets old. It isn't opinion they give, it is the unabasedly pasting on one after another negative articles directed at one particular candidate. I

As for anyone opposing ALL the Dem candidates, I wonder just what they are looking for here.

That is MY opinion and I am entitled to it as well as anyone else, thank you very much.

Have a great day!

Checking in...
Judy thanks for opera article -- I've often wondered just what kind of ego it must take to get out on a stage and do what they do, knowing that people have crossed oceans just to hear them. That's pressure. At the moment my fickle heart has moved on to a dead Tango composer, but doubt him bc apparently he had the same pet name for his dog and his wife lol after which he named a gorgeous song. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_qu...+piazzolla&search=Search

Debate -- what I noted was the poll Steph quoted at the beginning -- in Iowa I think -- Obama 26, Hill and Edwards 25 if I remember correctly. That's quite different from the n'al polls we hear. Also how the camera kept going to Dennis's gorgeous wife. Never saw any other wife (or Bill C) exc for one shot of Eliz Edwards.

Nature -- my cat brought me a mouse this morning. Then the blue jays were going nuts, so I went out to see what was going on and saw a HUGE owl in the tree - this owl was apx 1 and 1/2 times the size of my cat. Guess he wanted the mouse, so instead of burying it I put it out where he could get it. Never saw if he took it, but did get to see him in flight - wingspan -- maybe 5 feet? Wow.

I'm glad I didn't make a 200 mile drive to see the debate in person. Harkin's Steak Fry has all of the candidates coming and they will give uninterrupted stump speeches of their choosing and I prefer that format.

Thanks so much. 

OK, I have finished my ruminations on the meaning of 'is.'  sometimes ideas look a lot better in the middle of the night.  but, I'm pretty wedded to the difference between 'be' and 'do'.

I have a very a strong opinion on those few who continually bash the same candidate over and over.

I bash them all since they all deserve it. There also those who bash all but their favorite while bashing those who bash that favorite. And then there are those who bash any and all who bash anyone with a "D" after the name -- even when an "R" would be more accurate.

As for anyone opposing ALL the Dem candidates, I wonder just what they are looking for here.

Since the name of this organization is "Democracy" For America rather than "Democratic" For America, I assume most are looking for democracy here.

That is MY opinion and I am entitled to it as well as anyone else, thank you very much.

You certainly are. And it's to be hoped you think others are as just entitled to theirs, you're welcome very much.

Daok: Who will defend Constitution? That should be presidential litmus test
By RICHARD DOAK
SPECIAL TO THE REGISTER
August 19, 200714

One of the presidential candidates plying Iowa will stand on the Capitol steps on Jan. 20, 2009, and be required to swear an oath to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Judging from their campaigns so far, most of them could not take that oath with a straight face.

That's a harsh thing to say, but most of the candidates, especially the leading Republicans, have failed to express any qualms about the claims of absolute executive power advanced by President Bush and Vice President Cheney.

http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.d...

Miracle-of-miracles...
We went to a VFW dinner last night and for the first time ever, I didn't get into a fight with a war lover.
Folks are starting to understand that we have to stop killing everyone who disagrees with us. This is for domestic as well as foreign policy.
For those who think it was great to remove Sadaam even if he didn't have WMDs, then ask them if it is ok to murder a million innocent men, women and children.
I used to hang up a poster of buying the best bullet-proof vests so members could send them to the Natonal Guard troops who didb't have them.
We had a couple of recent Iraq troops and they are really mentally messed up. Their tour-of-duty is very exhausting because they never got a break from patrols. They are out being a target every day. They are usually six or eight hours on and the same off. It takes a long time to unwind from the intense sensory overload of combat. In VN, we did a patrol about every three days. Some of us even volunteered for extra night patrols because we knew we were going to ambush the bad guys..a little pay-back.
In Iraq, the troops make a sweep thru an area. After they leave, the locals set bobby traps. The next group comes by and dies. Now they are trying to occupy an area which causes the activity to move elsewhere until the occupation moves somewhere else. Then the origional area flares up.

Get 'em out.

91.

I don't indiscriminately bash all Democratic candidates. The only true Democrats (so far) running for president are Kucinich and Gravel;the others are GOP-lite to varying degrees, and I shall continue to bash them, and post relevant parts of critical essays.

 That's what democracy is about

Joan in Fl. #40

I haven't decided on a candidate, but I have to admit that I lean toward Kucinich a little each time I learn more.

Dennis does not just give lip service as you rightly mention that the others do. He has a lot of excellent legislation pending. Unfortunately the progressive caucus is not yet large enough to push it through. As long as that is the case, it seems like if we want some of those bills to become law, as progressives, we should help try to make that happen.

I haven't read his health plan, but I have been trying to help get more signers to his HRes 333 to impeach Cheney. I've done that in the context of a peoples' lobby called "Our Street"/

There have been two more signers, Rep.Steve Cohen and Sheila Jackson Lee. If we would call these people and thank them, along with calling Pelosi to get the bill scheduled we would be adding the needed support that a Rep. like Kucinich requires in this Congress that is still managed by the Blue dog mentality. The same action could be taken by "Our Street" for promoting the best health care plan etc, carrot and stick, just like the big boys do it on "K St.

I don't indiscriminately bash all Democratic candidates.

Come to think of it, I don't either. 

Again today Bill Richardson made Out. Now. seem a logical and do-able option.

I'm glad he is a candidate to keep the rest honest. any look at polls in Iowa see him climbing

but I am also glad to have Linda's criticism because I too have problems with "incentives" for economic growth and tax cuts, because they are susceptible to cronyism and I want to know if that is in his background

I consider this a strong field, but am glad they are being tested here, I see it as a labor of love (of country)

Hoping this works...pictures from this weekend.

http://www.dfalink.com/group_photos.php?...

Ooops. I guess Thankful was blogging on this computer. LOL. That was me, not Thankful.

Phil Specht
Sun, 08/19/07
1:40 pm


You've said that many times now, but what i head was; Out completely, but not all that fast.

I understand the "don't leave our gear in there" argument, but aren't we gonna have to arm them anyhoo? OR is it a vested interest to a) incurr maximun shipping costs b) give them brand new stuff? i vote c) here take this. It's been in your sand box for four years, but if it's good enough for me - you take it.

Cr@p, let's do this!! Let the Iraqi come to Kuwait for advanced training on the stuff we're gonna leave 'em.

AS IF, we couldn't blow it up from the air if we needed to.

Out. Now. is more possible/immediate than the cr@p i heard today, Phil.

... but i'm a pretty ignorant hick, ya know.

oops... "but what i heard was"

7.

Imn2Paine

If a bus has been crash driven into a ditch a good steward would first remove it's passengers not fill it with more.

105.

Deaniac, there are now 170,000 troops.  70,000 are "combat" and supposedly providing security for the other 100,000.  What are the 100,000 doing other than running the biggest airport (Balad) next to Chicago's O'Hare?  My guess is that they've set up missile and radar stations to download satellite information and keep track of the entire "region" that needs to be "stabilized."  This is not equipment we want to leave behind for the Iraqis who, even if they can't use it, will certainly sell it on the black market to our enemies (the people we've been watching and targeting).  I happen to think that all that stuff about Poland and The Czeck Republic was a red herring.  Putin didn't fall for it and that's why he's re-activated their strategic air command to "protect" the Central Asia Republics, the former clients of the Soviet Union.  Condi's got a bee  in her bonnet about Russia, Bush One has one about China.  So those were the real targets of this whole stupid excursion.  

Make an example of Iraq and claim the territory they'd been dickering for for two decades with Saddam who, like those stupid three little pigs wouldn't let us in. 

http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20070819...

Here's the problem folks. The 'polls' are up to the same level of public 'information' now as before the Iraq invasion.
They are in the high 70's, reportedly/propogandicly, that Iran is a major problem for either our troops or our national security.

It's because of cr@p stories like this (above link) that peal off about two sentences of un-proven supposition, then proceed with other info one could actually verify. chech it out.

U.S. Forces Tracking Iranians in Iraq

Aug 19, 1:39 PM (ET)

By KIM GAMEL

BAGHDAD (AP) - American forces are tracking about 50 members of an elite Iranian force who have crossed the border into southern Iraq to train Shiite militia fighters, a top U.S. general said Sunday. The French foreign minister, meanwhile, arrived in Baghdad on a groundbreaking visit after years of icy relations with the United States over Iraq.

In Paris, the foreign ministry said Bernard Kouchner was in "Iraq to express a message of solidarity from France to the Iraqi people and to listen to representatives from all communities."

Merely stepping onto Iraqi soil was a major symbol of French President Nicolas Sarkozy's efforts to end any lingering U.S.-French animosities over the 2003 Iraq invasion.

Kouchner arrived on the fourth anniversary of the bombing of the U.N. headquarters in Baghdad that killed U.N. special envoy Sergio Vieira de Mello and 19 other people. The two men were friends.
(cont.)
#########

Sorry folks, now the mission in Iraq is to attack Iran. The longer we stay there the more 'sucess' the neo-cons or MIC WILL have and WILL do it.

Phil, that's what i'd get up and say if i were in Iowa TO Richardson when he tries to pull out in the left lane.

Jessica, glad you all are havin' fun and that Subway got to have another respite.

Monica Smith
Sun, 08/19/07
2:50 pm


... well, ok, i'd blow it up right where it sits, then

LEAVE!!

makin' friends and ...

gotta run

Love ya'll, maen it!!

103. Thanks for the pix Jessica/Thankful -- looks like y'all had fun.

"Bush's self destruction will come not from an actual detonation that shatters his body but through the judgment of his presidency as the worst in the history of this country....from Huron's article.

Putz's self destruction will and is shattering his soul, which was prolly mostly shattered in childhood.  It's called soul-murder and leads to being addicted to one thing or another.  This country, by and large, soul-murders its children.

******************************

I don't care for the dem field at all.  Who is talking about global warming?  Who is talking about the Amerodollar?  Who is renouncing AIPAC?  Who is saying that we should not steal Iraqi oil?  Who is suggesting nuclear disarmament? Who is talking about the million or more that we've killed?  Who is suggesting we rescind the War Powers Act?  Who is talking about IMPEACHMENT for god's sake?  Who's defending the Constitution?

None of the candidates, except maybe Kucinich and Gravel do anything for me.  I'm watching Dodd and Edwards but since I have no say in the end result, I have to hope that Iowans ask the above questions.

Gore, or perhaps I won't vote or will write him in.  I'm just not gonna take this unfair system of nomination anymore with IA and NH being the first and the CMWs pushing corporate W's at us.  

I'm holding out for Gore.  If he comes in, I'll rejoice.  If he doesn't, I'll likely skip voting for prez and leave this country in the hands of people, dems and  repugs  who just don't care if they're enslaved by corporations and corruption.

How can people who don't even get a chance to be part of the nominating process be expected to stay active?  I'm feeling it's a waste of time and energy.   One day, everybody votes  in the primaries.  For prez,  most votes win the WH.  How hard can that be?  

The clowns are already in the room. 

And who's addressing world population explosion?  Who's addressing THAT?  And who's talking about the North American Trade thing that's being planned in secret?  Who's addressing Mexican trucks being allowed to drive hither and yon in this country, carrying god only knows what?

Ånd who's against war with Pakistan and Iran, period.  Kucinich and Gravel, right?

Gravel said he's afraid of most of the dem cand. and so am I! 

 The fix to expand the war has been in a  long time and the cands know it. (PNAC)  The fix is also in for Clinton/Obama and that's why the CMWs are pushing them. 

IMO our country is done short a miracle.

Out. Now.

Seven Returning Troops: "The War As We Saw It"
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/081907A.shtml
In The New York Times, seven soldiers write: "Viewed from Iraq at the tail end of a 15-month deployment, the political debate in Washington is indeed surreal. Counterinsurgency is, by definition, a competition between insurgents and counterinsurgents for the control and support of a population. To believe that Americans, with an occupying force that long ago outlived its reluctant welcome, can win over a recalcitrant local population and win this counterinsurgency is far-fetched. As responsible infantrymen and noncommissioned officers with the 82nd Airborne Division soon heading back home, we are skeptical of recent press coverage portraying the conflict as increasingly manageable and feel it has neglected the mounting civil, political and social unrest we see every day."

So putzie poo now can spy on democrats and peek into their private political business.  The dems have given putz power to destroy them.

And what can and will he do to the rest of us?

FOCUS | Broad Surveillance Powers Raise Concern
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/081907Z.shtml
James Risen and Eric Lichtblau, of the New York Times, report that "broad new surveillance powers approved by Congress this month could allow the Bush administration to conduct spy operations that go well beyond wiretapping to include - without court approval - certain types of physical searches on American soil and the collection of Americans' business records, Democratic Congressional officials and other experts said."

Idiots.  We told them not to do this.

    The dispute illustrates how lawmakers, in a frenetic, end-of-session scramble, passed legislation they may not have fully understood and may have given the administration more surveillance powers than it sought.

Our lazy critters.

    The measure, which President Bush signed into law on Aug. 5, was written and pushed through both the House and Senate so quickly that few in Congress had time to absorb its full impact, some Congressional aides say.

  Though many Democratic leaders opposed the final version of the legislation, they did not work forcefully to block its passage, largely out of fear that they would be criticized by President Bush and Republican leaders during the August recess as being soft on terrorism.

    Yet Bush administration officials have already signaled that, in their view, the president retains his constitutional authority to do whatever it takes to protect the country, regardless of any action Congress takes. At a tense meeting last week with lawyers from a range of private groups active in the wiretapping issue, senior Justice Department officials refused to commit the administration to adhering to the limits laid out in the new legislation and left open the possibility that the president could once again use what they have said in other instances is his constitutional authority to act outside the regulations set by Congress.

    At the meeting, Bruce Fein, a Justice Department lawyer in the Reagan administration, along with other critics of the legislation, pressed Justice Department officials repeatedly for an assurance that the administration considered itself bound by the restrictions imposed by Congress. The Justice Department, led by Ken Wainstein, the assistant attorney general for national security, refused to do so, according to three participants in the meeting. That stance angered Mr. Fein and others. It sent the message, Mr. Fein said in an interview, that the new legislation, though it is already broadly worded, "is just advisory. The president can still do whatever he wants to do. They have not changed their position that the president's Article II powers trump any ability by Congress to regulate the collection of foreign intelligence."

There must be a new thread since I've posted all this stuff.  Maybe I overposted.  It's critical info. Bye bye justice!

seashell....

Send all of those questions to Keith, Steph. and whoever is going to monitor future debates
The only one that is being addressed is the impeachment thing in Kucinich's bill HRes 333.
I heard Kucinich give a one word answer when asked about the problem in Iraq, and the word was AIPAC.

Can't wait to hear Christiane Amanpour's series next week Tues, Wed, Thurs, God's Jewish Soldiers, God's Muslim Soldiers, and God's Christian Soldiers. CNN has been showing snippits,.....scary.

OK, there's a diary on KOS with an impeachment plan.  The following are members of progressive caucus that have and have not signed on:

In yesterday’s comments, buhdydharma suggested starting with the Progressive Caucus, some of whom have already signed on to H. Res. 333. Those that have already signed on are in bold on the list below.

 I suggest you read the whole thing.  It was prompted by an aide to Pelosi saying they thought they needed 100 co-sponsors.Just look who's not on board.  Peter Welch?

Well, it would be nice if Bush Two were actually getting more intelligence from any source, but it seems he remains incorrigibly stupid.

What do we do to spies?  Don't they deserve to be hanged?  Why do we countenance spying on other nations?  Could we not argue that our Constitution is designed to limit our agents of geovernment, regardless of whom they are interacting with?  If you have a subjective standard of behavior that judges on the basis of the agent's acts, shouldn't the intent to violate the privacy of a foreign entity be just as wrong as violating the privacy of a domestic one?  Oh, yes, our privacy isn't explicitly protected. 

Yes, it's true.  Democrats are soft on terrorism.  Bush Two is terrorizing the country and they're not doing anything about it.

seashell

we have flooding in progress and as soon as the water goes down I have creek fences to replace (again)

the candidates want to win

Iowans are asking tough questions

but sheeple in other states don't have to stampede if we make a mistake

bbl

128.

Monica Smith
Sun, 08/19/07
3:59 pm


Yes, it's true. Democrats are soft on terrorism. Bush Two is terrorizing the country and they're not doing anything about it.
----------
...lol,
Finally, here is the long awaited and much closer to the reality definition of terrorism, as well as acknowledgement of Demos' complicity in it.

129. Phil - sorry about the flood -- take care of those cows.

Bob Petrillo's house sits on a hillside maybe 25 feet above flood stage, so he is probably OK but in his area most roads are out, and he has neighbors in a world of hurt, listening to the emergency broadcasts.

my cows love to swim and spend hot days in the pond so they are OK

dairymen to my north where powerlines have washed out and milk trucks can't run are in need of the good vibes

I live on a ridge, just my heifer pasture is down in the valley.

we had a National level diaster in the tri-states last night but the Federal Government is too busy bailing out Hedge Funds reckless behavior to repond to acts of God

and another Guard Unit left for Iraq Friday

Erin left similar damage and here comes Dean

Endangered California condor dies of lead poisoning

An endangered California condor that was being treated at the Los Angeles Zoo for lead poisoning died this week, a conservation group reported Thursday.

Tests showed the bird had 10 times the safe amount of lead in its bloodstream after it was caught at the Bitter Creek National Wildlife Refuge last month, according to Audubon California, an environmental and conservation group.

Only about 300 California condors remain in the world.

"Lead poisoning is a tremendous threat to these remarkable birds," said Glenn Olson, executive director of Audubon California....full article: http://www.fresnobee.com/384/story/11558...

Some encouraging news.........today at the pool, a high school senior was reading 1984......I asked her if she draw some paralleles between 984 and today and she said yes..........

Also, traveling down I=95 sout of DC i saw 2 "Rudy 08" bumper stickers.............short haired white guys, maybe mlitary from Quantico..................

seashell :-)
Sun, 08/19/07
3:16 pm
___________________________________________________________________________

sea,

Edwards said a few lines about nuke disarmamament.........not much..........I agree, except for DK and Kucinich they are all pretty pathetic..................

In NYC last week a a ticker in Times Square showed in an election held today, Hillary 46% and Rudy 43%..............thats far too close..........the dems have set themselves up for a heart breaking loss come November 2008 IMO................

Energy - Nuclear Power 2.0Margaret Kriz (Email this author)
© National Journal Group, Inc.

A handful of electric power companies are poised to submit applications to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission this fall to begin building and operating the next generation of nuclear power plants. A dozen more utilities, most of them in the fast-growing South, are likely to follow suit next year.

Most of the firms were inspired to take the plunge by the 2005 Energy Policy Act, which offers major financial incentives to companies willing to invest in new reactors. Other utilities were drawn to nuclear power after becoming convinced that it's the best way to satisfy the growing demand for electricity without increasing their emissions of the greenhouse gases linked to global warming. In their return to nuclear power, all of the companies are looking for significant additional financial help from state and federal governments.

No utility has ordered a new nuclear power plant in the United States in nearly three decades, not since a 1979 accident at Pennsylvania's Three Mile Island facility caused the core of one reactor to melt down. Even before the crisis, Wall Street had begun losing faith in nuclear power because of massive overruns in construction costs. After the near-disaster at Three Mile Island, investors long wanted nothing more to do with nuclear energy -- even though the nation's 104 commercial nuclear reactors remain the source of 20 percent of the electricity produced in the United States.

Now nuclear energy's supporters are hailing the anticipated deluge of power-plant proposals as the beginning of a nuclear renaissance in this country. "I don't want to be too optimistic, but it's been a long time since we've seen all the stars line up in the direction that says, 'Let's go build new nuclear plants,' " said Andrew Kadak, professor of nuclear engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "That's what's happening here."

[...]

Here it comes.  More subsidies.  Capitalism at its best! 

New thread.

Surprises Lurk in 2008 Congressional Elections

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyid=12899506

Weekend Edition Saturday, August 18, 2007 · While much of the nation's attention is focused on the presidential race, the entire House of Representatives and a third of the Senate are are also up for election in 2008. Former House speaker Dennis Hastert (R-IL) announced Friday that he will not seek another term in office, just one of a series of moves that could affect the shape of Congress after the elections.

Scott Simon talks with David Wasserman of The Cook Report http://www.cookpolitical.com/, nonpartisan group that has its sights trained on all elections at all times, about what's brewing for 2008.

Somebody must like what Dennis is saying because
right now he is in first place on the ABC online Iowa
Debate Poll. The question is: Who won the debate?

Dennis has almost 1,000 votes more than Obama. He's left Hillary in the dust.....

I need to address the comment a to Joan in FL (Post #40):

"I like what he says, most do, but he too is only giving lip service, saying everything we want to hear, offering very little about how to do it except to either "bring them home" or "cancel NAFTA" -- those are not plans".

Well, if the mainstream Media would give Dennis a fair share
of time on stage, then he would have an opportunity to explain
his positions and ideas in more detail. A much better way to find out details of his plans is to find out when he's being
interviewed on a TV or Radio show. Since he is the only one
on the show he gets ample opportunity to talk about his positions and solutions on a variety of issues.

You can also visit his brand new website and
Forum. http://dennis4president.com

The Website and Forum will have his schedule listed of where he is speaking and/or appearing next.

(Please keep in mind they are still adding materials to the new website).