Dean is so first it's not funny.

Sitka wrote "As you pointed out yesterday, it's everyone's job to interpret Obama's words for themselves. If he doesn't like the impression he's created with many he can issue a clarification."

This is a public forum and I'm willing to be proven wrong if there's a source.  At this stage, no one's produced one.   The editorial veneer applied to the candidate's words don't have any more truck with me than do the idiotic broadsides issued by the writers at antiwar.com and counterpunch.com about the foreign policy positions of Howard Dean and Al Gore.

From Press clip cited on previous thread: Richardson spokesman speaks in Tampa

...Patsy Trujillo is New Mexico’s Deputy Secretary of Aging and Long Term Services under Gov. Bill Richardson...

...Trujillo spoke about the immigration bill that recently failed in Congress. She said it wasn’t best bill for families.

She is also a spokesperson for Richardson’s presidential campaign

“As Gov. Richardson has stated, he does not support the wall. If you build a 10-foot wall, you’re going to have a 12-foot ladder.

"We don’t want to separate families. That’s the most crucial thing that we’re looking at is leaving children behind and families being sent back to their home country. This is one area where the governor needs to work on a little bit more. He needs to find out exactly what’s going to work and work with Congress on this issue.”...

-----

I got a mailer from Gov. Richardson's presidential campaign yesterday. I normally don't pay to much attention to mailers asking for a contributions. Frankly, I get a lot of them. My husband an I mostly contribute to candidates and organizations through the internet or we attend local fundraisers. Most mailers are cookie cutter and very boring but this one had a quote on the outside of the envelope.

.....The war in Iraq is not the disease. Iraq is a symptom. The disease is arrogance......

I don't know if that is a quote by the Governor but it sure is the truth and a truth that we all need to consider about ourselves and our society.

Rethugs can flip-flop with impunity, it appears.

What I most sincerely wish for prick is that he rots in Hell for eternity ... but that first, he gets there most promptly, since a Congress full of enabling Rethugs and Blue Dog Dems seems to be so loath to impeach, indict, and imprison him.

************
The great Bill Moyers ... on KKKarl, et another Rethug who worships at the Altar of Hypocrisy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmwdevPRy...

Sitka wrote "On the other hand, you have yet to convince anyone that Obama hasn't rolled over onto Cheney's side of the bed."

I found out in a graphic demonstration yesterday that that won't happen here in Ron Paul land.  Some people believe that if Cuba takes out terrorist murderer Orlando Bosch in Florida, it will have launched an attack on the U.S. 

This is a public forum and I'm willing to be proven wrong if there's a source.  At this stage, no one's produced one.

(As I replied to this same post on the previous thread......)

On the other hand, you have yet to convince anyone that Obama hasn't rolled over onto Cheney's side of the bed. 

*et* s/b *yet* ... sigh

*************
While prick & the putzCO enablers have been sharpening their knives for Iran, Iran has been uniting with some like-minded folks.

This should be making the Rapture folks rapturous.

Frankly, it makes me thoroughly sick. It has been entirely foreseeable and did not NEED to happen.

Thanks again, putzCo traitors, with Clueless Condi at the helm!

==============
Central Asians cock a snoot at west
Oleg Shchedrov

BISHKEK — The leaders of Russia, China and four central Asian states yesterday sketched plans to put energy co-operation at the heart of their mutual security during a summit with anti-western overtones.

The meeting of the Shanghai Co-operation Organisation (SCO) in the Kyrgyz capital Bishkek was heavy on symbolism, not least in inviting Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as a guest of honour.

Resource-rich central Asia is seen by the US and Europe as a promising alternative energy source to Russia, while China is seeking oil and gas in the former Soviet region, and Moscow wants to maintain its grip on export routes.

The SCO states, which two years ago called on the US to set a date for pulling troops out of central Asia, are holding joint military exercises to coincide with the summit, prompting leading Russian daily Izvestia to dub the SCO “the anti-Nato”.

[...]
Earlier this year, Russia, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan signed a deal to expand a Soviet-era pipeline system to deliver gas from the Caspian region via Russia.

That deal undermined western plans for an alternative export route under the Caspian Sea, bypassing Russia.

[...]
http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/wo...

I found out in a graphic demonstration yesterday that that won't happen here in Ron Paul land.

One crank does not a blog make. 

Some people believe that if Cuba takes out terrorist murderer Orlando Bosch in Florida, it will have launched an attack on the U.S.

Never heard of him. But it isn't very nice for countries to go around killing people in other countries. 

I must ask what is considered a source? You want a name to attach and then you turn around and say you don't believe them becuase they're not supporters. If even ones own written words in speech apparently don't qualify, what possibly could?

Phil, being Governor Richardson is there talking about SPENDING and having a Constitutional Amendment. How funny. He's grown and wasted the government here so much and uses tax dollars for Corporate Interests.

But, ask him how he feels about social programs, to cut them to balance that budget or even Social Security, not a social program, a fund, paid in to-where does he stand on Social Security, too?

He tried to get his hands on New Mexico's, but he couldn't because it's not State, under him, so it was joyfully rejected. It would all be gone if it wasn't protected from him.

Bloggie must be doing its usual thing-y since some posts appear to be out of order.

********
The Fed has applied a band-aid. I don't believe that it will stem the coming hemorrhage, but Wall Street apparently believes it will.

At least until Monday.

==============
Fed Intervenes to Calm Markets
By Neil Irwin, Howard Schneider and Tomoeh Murakami Tse
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, August 17, 2007; 9:38 AM

The Federal Reserve today cut a key interest rate by a half a percentage point, moving to ease a credit crunch and calm global stock markets by making it cheaper for financial institutions to borrow directly from the central bank.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average surged more than 200 points in its opening minutes as investors reacted to news that the Fed had reduced the rate at its "discount window" to 5.75 percent from 6.25 percent -- a rare move taken in between meetings of the Federal Open Market Committee.

In a press release, the central bank said the decision was in direct response to events that have caused the Dow Jones Industrial Average to shed nearly ten percent of its value in a week and forced markets sharply lower in Asia and Europe as well.

[...]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...

I must ask what is considered a source?

I don't get that one either. Is he asking for a pundit who interprets Obama's words the same as I and many others do? Of course, the only source is Obama himself and he's been quoted ad nauseum.

12. Sitka, no, he always rejects those sources with some sort of reasoning.

Just to say here that I have not yet selected a candidate whom I can wholeheartedly support from among those Dems now running. All have strengths and all have weaknesses.

Even Gore, not running (not yet officially, at least), who is my number one preferred choice is not perfect. Even Dean, who is my number one co-choice, is not perfect.

But when people come here to spam ... and repost the same reports over and over again ... for the candidates of their choice, or consistently attack other bloggers who speculate that the candidate of their choice may have flaws, they do not do those candidates good service, IMHO.

WE who post here and are Dean believers are NOT the enemy.

Sitka wrote "Never heard of him. But it isn't very nice for countries to go around killing people in other countries."

Yes, as former likes to say, Al Qaeda are people, too.

Orlando Bosch is a cuban exile and anti-Castro terrorist who had been jailed for entering the U.S. illegally, and was widely known as the mastermind of the 1976 explosion that brought down a Cuban airliner, killing 76 civilians on board, among other incidents of kidnapping and violence.  In the FBI's description, he had "repeatedly expressed and demonstrated a willingness to cause indiscriminate injury and death."

However, leading Republican Party contributors in Miami militated for his release, and the Bush justice department was lobbied by the well-connected Jeb Bush, whom these wealthy exile businessman had befriended, making him wealthy through a series of Florida real estate and other business transactions.  Bosch was released to live in luxury among his fellow Florida Republican compeers in 1990.

That deal undermined western plans for an alternative export route under the Caspian Sea, bypassing Russia.

It's to be hoped that before he grabs his chest and falls to the ground for the last time, Cheney will realize what a colosal failure his NeoCon ambitions have been. There's no hope for Bush -- he'll go to his grave with God whispering in his ear that he was the greatest success ever. 

Excuse me while I barf to see praise heaped on someone who I believe should in chains and in prison, but it is worthwhile noting what Turd Blossom did.

Minus the cheating and promoting the worst administration ever, there is some basic common sense.

To compete successfully with The Enemy, we must know him.

=======================
What History Taught Karl Rove
By Michael Gerson
Friday, August 17, 2007; A23

When I asked Karl Rove this week to summarize his approach to politics, he quoted from memory a 167-year-old letter by Abraham Lincoln to his Whig campaign committee: "Keep a constant watch on the doubtful voters, and from time to time have them talked to by those in whom they have the most confidence."

Rove's innovation was to bring this peer-to-peer politics to a continental scale. Microtargeting and intensive turnout efforts helped win West Virginia by 6 points in 2000 (Bob Dole had lost the state by 15 points in 1996) and improbably elected a Republican challenger in a time of Democratic prosperity. "In election after election," Rove observes, "we were applying Lincoln's letter."

[...]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...

Bosch was released to live in luxury among his fellow Florida Republican compeers in 1990.

Kind of makes a mockery out of all the "harboring terrorists" rhetoric from American politicians of both stripes. 

The Power of Love by Ellen McGrath

Love is the best antidepressant—but many of our ideas about it are wrong. The less love you have, the more depressed you are likely to feel.

Love is as critical for your mind and body as oxygen. It's not negotiable. The more connected you are, the healthier you will be both physically and emotionally. The less connected you are, the more you are at risk....full article: http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-...


Back to the Future - The Power of Love: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NMph943t...

Sailor Moon Power of Love: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx6nWeik8...

The answer is: it is OUR report.

And we deserve the truth. For a change.

=================
Whose Report Is It, Anyway?
By Dan Froomkin
Special to washingtonpost.com
Thursday, August 16, 2007; 12:26 PM

The "Petraeus Report" -- the supposedly trustworthy mid-September reckoning of military and political progress in Iraq by Army Gen. David H. Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan C. Crocker -- is instead looking more like a White House con job in the making.

The Bush administration has been trying for months to restore its credibility on Iraq (as well as stall for time) by focusing on Petraeus -- President Bush's "main man" in Iraq -- and his report to Congress. But now it turns out it that White House aides will actually write the "Petraeus Report," not the general himself.

And although Petraeus has a long history of literally and figuratively playing the good soldier for Bush, it appears that the president still doesn't trust him enough to stay on message under the congressional klieg lights.

Julian E. Barnes and Peter Spiegel wrote in yesterday's Los Angeles Times: "Despite Bush's repeated statements that the report will reflect evaluations by Petraeus and Ryan Crocker, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, administration officials said it would actually be written by the White House, with inputs from officials throughout the government."

(The precedent for that sort of process is not good. Barnes and Spiegel noted that during internal White House discussion of a July interim report, some officials wanted to claim progress in areas where there was no credible evidence to support such claims.)

In today's Washington Post, Jonathan Weisman and Karen DeYoung write: "Senior congressional aides said yesterday that the White House has proposed limiting the much-anticipated appearance on Capitol Hill next month of Gen. David H. Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan C. Crocker to a private congressional briefing, suggesting instead that the Bush administration's progress report on the Iraq war should be delivered to Congress by the secretaries of state and defense.

[...]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...

Linda wrote "I must ask what is considered a source?"

I must have thought it was more obvious than it is.  Here's an example.  On February 17, 2003, Howard Dean spoke at Drake University and said "And if we believe terrorists - especially if they are terrorists linked to al Qaeda - have set up a poison and explosives training center in Northern Iraq, outside Saddam Hussein's control, why haven't we verified that information and destroyed that camp?"

From it, you may conclude that Dean would be in support of a strike inside of Iraq to destroy an Al Qaeda poison and explosives training center.  Most would agree it would be difficult to argue with such an unambiguous statement. 

Sitka wrote "Kind of makes a mockery out of all the "harboring terrorists" rhetoric from American politicians of both stripes."

I've noticed.

Sitka, Linda & Susan ... I am not usually around at this time but am blogging instead of packing, which is what I should be doing.

It's fun to see you here, but are you all just up early or have you not yet gone to bed?

LOL

21. That is one reason why I do not find Dean to be perfect.

But I would trust him one heck of a lot more than any one of the current candidates.

But I will vote for whoever is the nominee, unless his/her supporters here make him/her completely unpalatable by arguing with everything I say.

Sheesh, these born-agains really do have a lot of sins to confess.

===================
Apartheid-era minister pleads guilty in poison underwear trial
Chris McGreal in Pretoria
Friday August 17, 2007
Guardian Unlimited

South Africa's former law and order minister, Adriaan Vlok, today became the only senior politician in the country's white regime to be convicted of apartheid-era crimes when he pleaded guilty to the attempted murder of a prominent cleric.

Mr Vlok received a 10-year suspended prison sentence under a plea bargain by admitting he ordered the security police to kill the Reverend Frank Chikane, a leading anti-apartheid activist, in 1989.

The deal saved former cabinet colleagues the prospect of a full trial and further revelations about just how much South Africa's white rulers knew of atrocities, including murders, bombings and torture, that they continue to blame on rogue elements in the security forces.

The former police commissioner, Johan van der Merwe, and three other former high-ranking policemen also pleaded guilty and received suspended prison sentences of between five and 10 years.

Rev Chikane, now the director of President Thabo Mbeki's office, sat behind the five elderly, grey haired accused who laced his underwear with a nerve agent that nearly killed him when he was secretary general of the South African Council of Churches.

The cleric said he forgave the men for trying to murder him. Mr Vlok, a born-again Christian, is the only former cabinet minister who has admitted to apartheid-era crimes. It was his extraordinary plea for forgiveness to Rev Chikane, as he washed the cleric's feet, that led to the prosecution.

[...]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,33058...

Judy wrote "That is one reason why I do not find Dean to be perfect."

I missed the thesis presented that Dean is perfect.  However, one subject that came up was whether Obama said he will attack Pakistan, whether he was talking about starting new wars, or whether he said he will bomb Pakistan, then agreed he would not.  I had unsuccessfully asked to see sources for these representations.

are you all just up early or have you not yet gone to bed?

I woke up at 5 and couldn't get back to sleep. 

More sabre-rattling ... stupid putzCo provocations are having some unintended results methinks.

=================
Putin's power play
Russia's plans to reopen its military bases in Syria could upset the entire balance of power in the Middle East.

The declaration earlier this month by Admiral Vladimir Masorin, the commander of the Russian navy, that Moscow intends to re-establish a permanent naval presence in the Mediterranean, is under close scrutiny from Washington to Tel Aviv. While more an aspiration than established fact so far, the move carries myriad, challenging implications, ranging from the US Sixth Fleet's regional monopoly on naval power to the security of trans-Caucasian and north African energy supply routes.

But it is the prospect of Russia reactivating its cold war naval bases in Syria, at the ports of Tartus and Latakia, that could have the most dramatic geopolitical impact. By raising Syria's stock in the region, analysts say such a move could further complicate western attempts to achieve settlements in Lebanon and the Palestinian territories. Defensive missile and surveillance systems around any Russian installations might also shift the military balance to Israel's disadvantage. A stratfor.com intelligence brief said:

"A Russian naval presence off the Syrian coast could allow Syrian president Bashar al-Assad's regime to better inoculate itself against a potential attack by the US or Israel ... The Russians would be offering an attractive insurance policy.

"Though Damascus could not rely on [the Russians] to actually defend Syrian interests, their mere presence would change the threat environment for Israel and make things like low-level flights over Assad's summer home a bit riskier."

[...]
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/simo...

A new vision to keep America safe (Online Only Commentary)

By Sen. BARACK OBAMA, D-Ill.
It’s time that American foreign policy reflected the common sense of the American people, not the failed conventional thinking of Washington.

To turn the page, we have to focus on the real threats to the American people — not on fighting the wrong war in Iraq. And we have to have the courage to tell the American people where we stand.

Today, America’s most dangerous enemies are training and plotting in the tribal regions of northwestern Pakistan. This al-Qaida safe-haven is a direct result of a failed policy that has America fighting on the wrong battlefield.

Instead of finishing the job against Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida in Afghanistan, we diverted our attention and resources to a war in Iraq that should never have been authorized. This allowed the terrorists to escape into Pakistan, where they have steadily rebuilt their strength and where they threaten America as well as Afghanistan and Pakistan.

I outlined my plan to deal with this threat as a part of a comprehensive strategy to fight terrorism in a speech on Aug. 1. I have supported aid to Pakistan in the Senate, and as I said in my speech, I would continue substantial military aid if Pakistan takes action to root out the terrorists.

I would also supplement that aid with non-military assistance to support the education and development necessary to combat extremism in Pakistan. As president, I will always work with friends and allies like Pakistan to root out terrorists

But relying on Pakistan while we fight the wrong war in Iraq has not worked. Because of that policy,  bin Laden and members of his inner circle who bear direct responsibility for the murder of 3,000 Americans are plotting new attacks. If Pakistan cannot or will not take out these high-level terrorist targets and we have actionable intelligence about where they are, then I would take action to protect the American people.

I firmly believe that if we know the whereabouts of bin Laden and his deputies and we have exhausted all other options, we must take them out.

I have never called for an invasion of Pakistan. You don’t need thousands of American troops to take out a meeting of high-level terrorists. Any student of the American military knows that we have many options to target terrorists with limited force, many of which involve no American boots on the ground. To suggest that targeting terrorists in Pakistan would be tantamount to an invasion is to misunderstand the capabilities of the U.S. military or to misrepresent my position.

I have been told that it is dangerous and un-presidential to say publicly that I will take action against terrorists like bin Laden. I reject that view. I trust the American people and I believe they have had enough of presidents who don’t.

Our security should not just be debated by insiders in the salons of Washington, it should be discussed with the American people. If my opponents believe that we should not take out high-level targets like bin Laden when we know where they are, they should say so. If my opponents have a secret plan to win the war on terrorism, they should tell the American people what it is.

I also reject the view that American cannot talk candidly to its friends and allies. The choices before us in Pakistan are not between unconditional support Musharraf and the extremists. That is a false choice.

The choice is whether you continue the Bush-Cheney policy that has been bad for America — and bad for Pakistan — because it has failed to take out al-Qaida’s  safe-haven, failed to reach out to Pakistan’s democratic majority and failed to undermine extremism. If my opponents feel that the Bush-Cheney policy is working, they should say so and not try to pin Pakistan’s long-standing and persistent internal problems on my recent call for a new approach.

My call for a new foreign policy is based on common sense. We need strong alliances to combat common enemies. We need to talk directly to our adversaries if we want our tough talk to amount to anything. We need to get off the wrong battlefield in Iraq if we want to deal effectively with terrorism. We need to take out bin Laden if we have him in our sights.

Washington’s conventional thinking says we cannot do these things. But conventional thinking is directly responsible for the most catastrophic foreign policy failure in a generation. After all, the war in Iraq wasn’t cooked up by Americans in Mason City. It was authorized by politicians in Washington who said they knew better.

If that’s what conventional thinking amounts to, it’s time for the conventional thinking to change

www.barackobama.com

www.barackobama.com

From the previous thread in case Sitka had already come over.

62.

Sorry.  That was awkward.  The first half was a statement of fact.  The second was an inelegant effort to represent the attitude of the law enforcement community.  They're used to young blacks acting up; white folks are supposed to know how to behave.  So, when law enforcers have to interact with an irate white man, they're apt to forget themselves and just react as they normally do to being challenged.

86.

Phil Specht
Thu, 08/16/07
11:19 am
Therefore Richardson (as well as other conventional "leaders") ARE just PEOPLE'S followers!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I thought that was what you have been advocating.
--------------------------

Sorry, Phil for the delayed respond..., took time to realize the importance of your post and need for additional clarification of what I’m talking about.

No, in precise terms that is not what I've been advocating.

People DO NEED leaders, however THE TRUE ONES!

Again, leaders “create/develop” ideas; while Richardson, in contrast, as a people’s follower is, in essence, a THIEF, since he’s trying to sell ideas developed by people AS HIS OWN and on that basis trying to convince very same people that he might be THEIR leader??!!
Of course it is pertinent to any conventional Democrat, not only to him alone.

True leader EXPRESSES ideas BEFORE anyone else CAN, like for example Dean on this war, when almost everybody around was hiding his/her tongues deep into own a**’s.

I’ll also add that, the DISTANCE between Nation’s Leader and people’s everyday, real life problems and concerns IS TOO HUGE for that leader to feel pulse of people’s life. Nation Leader RESIDES TOO FAR from nation. The respond time to correct Leader’s wrong decisions is too great. It is simply impossible to effectively manage and govern Nation of 300 hundreds millions people with one single person, BY DEFINITION!

People CAN find effective leaders for themselves (with almost instant! respond time) ONLY in much smaller communities, where THEY KNOW EACH OTHER WELL ENOUGH, e.g. either this is a production community (your work place) or residential community (where you live).

Tom: I never said that anyone said that Dean was perfect, although this blog originated as his and those of us who stay here think the world of him. I just said that I preferred him ... even though he isn't perfect. Since you used a Dean statement that is one that I think happens to show one of his flaws, I merely remarked upon it.

I am not sure what you are trying to do here since you are all over the place but are basically in an attack mode towards everyone.

Why?

17.

Yes, he realized that there are some people who need/want to be told what to do and the person who does it will be followed.  It's a variant of Dean saying that votes have to be asked for.  If you don't ask, you don't get. 

Another big *sheesh* here! V. bad PR. I hope that they give her lifelong dibs on the penthouse suite.

============
Hotel mistakes Nobel laureate for bag lady
Rory Carroll, Latin America correspondent
Friday August 17, 2007
Guardian

She was wearing a Mayan dress, the traditional attire of indigenous people in central America, and the hotel's response was also traditional: throw her out.

Staff at Cancun's five-star Hotel Coral Beach appear to have assumed this was another street vendor or beggar, so without asking questions they ordered her to leave. Except the woman was Rigoberta Menchú, the Nobel peace prizewinner, Unesco goodwill ambassador, Guatemalan presidential candidate and figurehead for indigenous rights.

The attempted eviction, an example of discrimination against indigenous people common in central and south America, backfired when other guests recognised Ms Menchú and interceded on her behalf.

The human rights activist was in the Mexican coastal resort at the request of President Felipe Calderón to participate in a conference on drinking water and sanitation and was due to give interviews at the hotel.

[...]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,33058...

On February 17, 2003, Howard Dean spoke at Drake University and said "And if we believe terrorists - especially if they are terrorists linked to al Qaeda - have set up a poison and explosives training center in Northern Iraq, outside Saddam Hussein's control, why haven't we verified that information and destroyed that camp?"

From it, you may conclude that Dean would be in support of a strike inside of Iraq to destroy an Al Qaeda poison and explosives training center.  Most would agree it would be difficult to argue with such an unambiguous statement.

If you'll remember, the US was bombing (attacking, if you will) targets in Iraq already -- for the previous 10 years, in fact. 

There is only a rhetorical comparison to Obama's statement about attacking Pakistan. 

Common sense indeed, Monica.

But too many Dems still seem to be stuck with the Carville, Ford, etc., triangulation thinking.

If Howard were not the DNC Chair now, we would be in very bad shape since because that basic common sense would not have been applied.

Such political gobbledygook sheds heat, but not light. 

23.

JudyforDean

Goood morning JudyforDean!

I arise early just about everyday. I like to watch to sun rise in the sky outside my window.

Phil and Linda:  Those are the words of Sen. Obama I have been requesting that people read for weeks.  Compare them to Dean's:

"But Osama bin Laden is also evil, and he has attacked the United States, and he is preparing now to attack us again.

"What happened to the war against al Qaeda?

"Why has this Administration taken us so far off track?

"I believe it is my patriotic duty to urge a different path to protecting America's security: To focus on al Qaeda, which is an imminent threat, and to use our resources to improve and strengthen the security and safety of our home front and our people while working with the other nations of the world to contain Saddam Hussein.

 " . . . .

"Now, I am not among those who say that America should never use its armed forces unilaterally. In some circumstances, we have no choice. In Iraq, I would be prepared to go ahead without further Security Council backing if it were clear the threat posed to us by Saddam Hussein was imminent, and could neither be contained nor deterred.

" . . . .

"Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda and their allies have murdered thousands of Americans and vowed to murder more.

"The threat they pose is imminent, constant and substantial. It cannot be deterred. Because it is global, it cannot be contained. It must be confronted until it is defeated.

"Eliminating the threat to Americans from al Qaeda and other terrorists is not simply a goal to put on a list with a lot of others. It must be the top priority of our government and the primary focus of our President.

"We must follow through on our commitments in Afghanistan to prevent that troubled land from ever again serving as a base for terrorism.

" . . . .

"Above all, we must be clear that no terrorist will ever intimidate the United States of America into withdrawing from the world or abandoning our allies, friends and ideals."

I'm not ready to accept at face value that Charlie challenged anyone since the charge comes from the very entrenched power and corruption he's been exposing.

21.

Clearly, that statement was designed to suggest that the emphasis on terrorism by the Bush Administration was not real.  He didn't say a camp in northern Iraq should be attacked unilaterally.  He said that "if" the rationale presented by Bush Two were sincere (whether or not he agreed with the response), they would have acted differently than they did.  So, either the focus on terrorism was clouded by whether the terrorists were friend or foe, or the terrorists camps that had been reported in northern Iraq weren't actually there.

It says nothing about what Dean himself would or would not do.

I only bring this up because Republican politicians in particular have made a habit of targeting Democratic actions and implying that they would have or would do the opposite when, when push comes to shove, they're actually prepared to do nothing. 

Russia's plans to reopen its military bases in Syria could upset the entire balance of power in the Middle East

Another NeoCon success story? 

Sorry, a few extra words sneaked into that last. Please disregard the *since* ...

Unfortunately, there are boxes calling my name. Sigh.

I leave you with this one.

*************
Abbas and his duly unelected Palestinian gov't in Ramallah are issuing ultimatums to Hamas. They seem to forget that Hamas is the elected government ... primarily because that is what the US & the UK tell them.

But believing in a fiction does not change the fact. And sooner or later, something will have to give.

We should talk to Hamas! It won't kill us ... and it may prevent the senseless slaughter of civilians on all sides who are caught in this never-ending conflict.

But with Clueless Condi as our foreign policy figurehead and AIPAC RW'ers and the neocons firmly in control, I don't have much hope for improvement.

==========================
Donald Macintyre: Like it or not, Europe and America are going to have to start talking to Hamas
Their exclusion risks shifting Hamas's centre of gravity even further towards the hardliners
Published: 17 August 2007

It's not widely known that during the efforts to free the BBC journalist Alan Johnston from his miserable incarceration in Gaza, a British official travelled to Damascus to enlist the help of Khaled Mashaal, the exiled head of Hamas's political bureau and widely regarded as the Islamic faction's most powerful single figure.

At the end of the discussions Mr Mashaal took the opportunity of predicting with confidence to his British interlocutor that, sooner or later, the international community would hold much wider political talks with Hamas. Why not do so soon, Mr Mashaal asked, rather than wait for years' more agony, deaths and hopelessness in the Middle East?

In the event the message could be delivered - unusually - in person because Whitehall temporarily waived the draconian EU-wide ban on contacts with Hamas in the interests of freeing Mr Johnston. Sensibly so, given the crucial role - acknowledged as such, equally sensibly, by the British Foreign Secretary, David Miliband - that Hamas played in securing Mr Johnston's release.

[...]
http://comment.independent.co.uk/columni...

Sitka wrote "Kind of makes a mockery out of all the "harboring terrorists" rhetoric from American politicians of both stripes."

I've noticed.

I was thinking of Obama (for starters) when I wrote that. 

41.

Tom Bearse
Fri, 08/17/07
10:31 am
--------

That's correct, it is Dean's words....which had been said YEARS AGO, while real live is changing with the speed of...days, not even weeks!

What else it might tell us?
IMO, there is no unmistakable prophets!

I know, I said it was the last, but just had to add these two remarks.

**************
43. Good point, Monica, and good interpretation of Dean's comment, IMO.

**************
40. Good morning, Susan! Enjoy those sunrises!

And now, to the dreaded boxes!

47.

former
Fri, 08/17/07
10:39 am

What else it might tell us?
-----

What we already know: that politicians UNFORTUNATELY not always tell us everything they have in mind.

Judy wrote "I am not sure what you are trying to do here since you are all over the place but are basically in an attack mode towards everyone."

Look, I really apologize.  I've tried to present this using principles of logic, but had it explained that I'm all over the place.  

Dean announced that we must be mindful of the genuine threat of terrorism and oppose Al Qaeda by attacking it at its source.  He said he would not hesitate to use military force if necessary.  I missed all the chorus of complaints here about how Dean would attack Iraq and bomb Afghanistan.  In fact, the opposite was true.  Most people, practically every person here, found him corageous in opposing the invasion of Iraq, despite having no vote for authorization.

Obama has announced that we must be mindful of the genuine threat of terrorism and oppose Al Qaeda by attacking it at its source.  He said he would not hesitate to use military force if necessary.  People here have said he would attack and bomb Pakistan.  Most people have not found it courageous of his to have opposed the invasion of Iraq.  They have dismissed it as irrelevant, because he had no vote to authorize it.

Howard Dean, Al Gore, Barack Obama: from their words we know they will not shrink from having the U.S. play a role in world affairs, but they are obviously not anxious to impose military solutions on problems with international implications.  It is Ron Paul who enforce an isolationist policy if elected.

42.

I think it's been more or less admitted that charlie challenged the alachua police to come clean on why they had compiled multiple police reports for which there was no complainant and why copies had been made available to non-involved parties when they hadn't been provided to him (the subject of the reports).

I might add that police departments all around the country are particularly sensitive about their "reports."  The officers don't like to write them and, even though they form the basis of the charges they file and have significant standing in court, their report-writing skills are typically lacking and, in fact, many cases are dismissed or thrown out because the reports are fatally flawed--all of which the agents of law enforcement have decided to interpret as a conspiracy against them.  Their preferred solution to this problem is to claim as many crimes having been committed as they can possibly imagine, in hopes that the defendant will have the grace the "cop a plea" or compromise and save them the horrendous experience of actually having to appear in Court and defend their actions. 

former

I'm not as libertarian as a Ron Paul backer, but I did participate in Al Gore's Re-invent Government program that reduced the Federal footprint on the economy by about 100,000 un-necessary jobs and was proud to do my little share which was to create a list of burdensome paperwork and private/government interactions for Iowa Agriculture. I passed along 17 ideas by interviewing industry participants on the ground without a lobby filter.

in many cases Congress had lowered oversight to a common denominator and the state regime in place was better, the Federal role redundant

in other cases there is a redundant state program

so I'm with you at the point where the President has authority over the normal course of business through executive branch functions. Program review and oversight should come through Congress/people and the executive should carry out that will.

and the actual person who is President has a personal responsibility to see that the civilians at the top of every Department that he appointed are responsive to that oversight

President Carter should be credited with the idea of sunsetting all programs so as to demand review by Congress and to assign them their proper role. 

41.

Tom Bearse

Tom, I have read so much of what he has said and done. His people put out so many corrections after making a statement and "what he meant" and fake stories, "he said..., not..." Cheryy picking to try to "mean" something else.

I am very informed on what he claims, what he says and what he does. That is why I will not support him.

I'm not ready to accept at face value that Charlie challenged anyone since the charge comes from the very entrenched power and corruption he's been exposing.

PS....And if I remember right, the first time Charlie was charged with physical violence and the judge threw it out. Don't believe anything his enemies say of him. 

10.

Linda*in*SFNM

Do as I say and not as I do is not good parenting. Caretakers need to be more committed to becomeing the truth which they are quoting.


About: Originally the official campaign blog of Howard Dean's 2004 presidential campaign, Blog for America now serves as the community blog for Democracy for America's national grassroots network. We all know that actions speak louder than words. Blog for America inspires and enables its readers to stand up and make a difference.

I think it's been more or less admitted that charlie challenged the alachua police to come clean on why they had compiled multiple police reports for which there was no complainant and why copies had been made available to non-involved parties when they hadn't been provided to him (the subject of the reports).

He is being charged with physically challenging the police -- which I will not accept at face value based on past events and who is making the charge. But of course he has challenged  -- and proven -- their corruption in the past.

Linda wrote "Tom, I have read so much of what he has said and done. His people put out so many corrections after making a statement and 'what he meant' and fake stories, 'he said..., not...' Cheryy picking to try to "mean" something else."

I'm familiar with the phenomenon.  When Joshua Frank hammered Obama, you linked to the article as some model of fair analysis.  When I linke to the Frank's articles hammering Dean as an anti-war fraud and Gore as an environmental hypocrite, you responded with undisguised indignation over the inaccuracte portrayals.  I wouldn't be surprised to hear either Dean or Gore make statements about what they really meant after that kind of treatment.  John aptly refers to it as sophistry.

28.

this is pure hypothesis, but it strikes me that all of these sudden announcements are largely an effort to capitalize on an event that's already over.  the U.S. has been chased out of Iraq.  Now there's an interest to capitalize on that event by saying "oh well, it was OUR military potential that caused the Americans to pull back."  They can say to their friends in the region, "see, we were right when we told you to just hang tough.  the americans weren't going to succeed, and, if it got too bad, we'd be there to back you up."

The Bushes got suckered.  Fair turn around for Bush One having suckered Saddam into going into Kuwait.

What we have to live down is that we killed over a million innocent Iraqis because their leader refused to be cowed. 

Stewardship.. is personal responsibility for taking care of another person's property or financial affairs. Historically, stewardship was the responsibility given household servants to bring food and drinks to an big castle dining hall. The term was then expanded to indicate a household employee's responsibility for managing household or domestic affairs. Stewardship later became the responsibility for taking care of passengers' domestic needs on a ship, train and airplane, or managing the service provided to diners in a restaurant. The term continues to be used in these specific ways, but it is also used in a more general way to refer to a responsibility to take care of something one does not own. read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stewardship...

Tom wrote: Howard Dean, Al Gore, Barack Obama: from their words we know they will not shrink from having the U.S. play a role in world affairs, but they are obviously not anxious to impose military solutions on problems with international implications.


Tom, this is why I don't think you are really paying attention to what Obama says. I know he constantly contradicts himself, but, there is countless pieces of evidence of what he claims and does.


You seem to ignore what is posted with your guidelines of "source". Again this IS from his own mouth and words written to speak.

"Obama:
"Enhancing our military will not be enough. As commander in chief, I would also use our armed forces wisely. When we send our men and women into harm's way, I will clearly define the mission, seek out the advice of our military commanders, objectively evaluate intelligence, and ensure that our troops have the resources and the support they need. I will not hesitate to use force, unilaterally if necessary, to protect the American people or our vital interests whenever we are attacked or imminently threatened.

We must also consider using military force in circumstances beyond self-defense in order to provide for the common security that underpins global stability -- to support friends, participate in stability and reconstruction operations, or confront mass atrocities. But when we do use force in situations other than self-defense, we should make every effort to garner the clear support and participation of others"

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070701fa...

He says he wants to use Military Force for EVERYTHING and EVERYWHERE he sees fit. Great, a country of militia rule and conquer. That is not what America is.

Linda wrote "[Obama] says he wants to use Military Force for EVERYTHING and EVERYWHERE he sees fit."

Is your suggestion that neither President Dean nor President Gore would use military force for everything and everywhere they saw fit?

57.

Tom Bearse
Fri, 08/17/07
10:56 am



I'm familiar with the phenomenon. When Joshua Frank hammered Obama, you linked to the article as some model of fair analysis.


Another example of your own "box" and trying to make you're own rules and meanings and accusation.

facts show different results than names and false choices you place.

When Joshua Frank hammered Obama, you linked to the article as some model of fair analysis.  When I linke to the Frank's articles hammering Dean as an anti-war fraud and Gore as an environmental hypocrite, you responded with undisguised indignation over the inaccuracte portrayals.

Dean did oppose invading Iraq. That's a fact.

And the claims that Gore is a enviro-fraud have been debunked. 

Is Obama a NeoCon? Probably not. That's why he shouldn't talk like one.

62. BINGO TOM, it's what they see as proper use of military force.

52.

Phil Specht
Fri, 08/17/07
10:46 am
---------

You are describing the current system and how SHOULD it work, while we already know that it CAN NOT.

The Land Stewardship Project fosters an ethic of stewardship for farmland, promotes sustainable agriculture and sustainable communities.
www.landstewardshipproject.org/

56.

Standard operating procedure to charge a civilian with assault, or intended assault, or looking askance.  Assault, btw, can be purely verbal. 

When Charlie insisted that he be taken for a medical evaluation and later demanded that the sheriff (who's in charge of the jail) be called, he was challenging the authority of the people who were dealing with him to do what they were doing.  

I'm just trying to give you the law enforcement perspective.

I am all for enforcing the law, but my respect for law enforcement agencies is very low.  And it is not uninformed.  I spent many years sitting in court rooms of all kinds to find out what really goes on.  Except for an occasional reporter that showed up for an "interesting" case, I was the ONLY independent court watcher.  Eventually, I was invited to become a guardian ad litem, an advocate for abused and neglected children.  I agreed because that was the only way to find out what was happening to children whose "interests" are often "protected" by closed proceedings.

"But when we do use force in situations other than self-defense, we should make every effort to garner the clear support and participation of others"

I'd like to ask Obama if it is ever acceptable to use force except in self defense, since otherwise it is aggression. 

He needs to be more careful with words -- or hire better policy experts and speech writers. 

62.

Tom Bearse
Fri, 08/17/07
11:01 am


Linda wrote "[Obama] says he wants to use Military Force for EVERYTHING and EVERYWHERE he sees fit."

Is your suggestion that neither President Dean nor President Gore would use military force for everything and everywhere they saw fit?
----------

...lol, don't forget that even Bush&Co. "decided" to do what they've done after 9/11 ONLY AFTER having "Ok" from China and Russia.

You are describing the current system and how SHOULD it work, while we already know that it CAN NOT.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Had the forces of Dean been available in the 94 election this nation would have done great things, and when we run the neo-cons out of town the people can take back their government.

following the Constitution would create "a more perfect Union"

no, former, I will not concede your point

a government of the people, by the people, for the people is possible simply by electing public servants who accept that role

I'm just trying to give you the law enforcement perspective.

I understand. I'm just pointing out that in this case the law enforcement in Alachua County has been demonstrated to be corrupt and lying (by Charlie in the past) and no account or charge of theirs can be accepted at face value. 

I may have this finally sorted out. President Obama would use military force for everything and everywhere he sees fit, and Presidents Dean and Gore would use military force if that’s what they see as its proper use.

temper tantrum.



Outtie, later

I may have this finally sorted out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~```

good Tom, now help me

How does Obama's position differ from the public one of John Kerry during the 04 General Election campaign? The one that led to his defeat.

Dang!  All my line spacers didn't work.   Sorry!!

Linda wrote "temper tantrum."

But I'm not angry.  You could try "twisting the conversation."

Hey!  Photo of National Nurse Teri with the info on today's radio show!

http://healthin30.com/subpage.cfm?tbl=22&id=249 

I have to think that Obama knew he would alienate liberals when he pronounced his war policy to be the same as Hillary's.  And now Edwards too. They apparently don't think they need such support and votes and it's their choice.

Phil wrote "How does Obama's position differ from the public one of John Kerry during the 04 General Election campaign? The one that led to his defeat."

I don't know.  Refresh my recollection.  Was it we are safer now that Saddam has been captured?  I would vote the same way on authorization, knowing what I know now in 2004?  I voted for the $87 million before I voted against it?

Sitka wrote "I have to think that Obama knew he would alienate liberals when he pronounced his war policy to be the same as Hillary's."

What's his war policy?

On the thread topic.  What Cheney said in 1994 is largely irrelevant.  The military Bush One had was inadequate to over-run and occupy Iraq.  Moreover, since the goal was to set up a long-term American military presence in Iraq (not an occupation) it was still hoped, as Bush One probably counseled Clinton, that Saddam could be brought 'round, if enough pressure was applied.  (Who knew they were dealing with a person who amused himself by writing bad novels?)  As the nineties wore on and Russia and China became ever more ascendant, it was clear that the time for setting up a credible presence on the Arabian Peninsula was growing short and, if Saddam couldn't be persuaded, they would have to use force.

So, they created the Iraqi National Congress to be prepared to take over the government when Saddam was removed.

Iraqi National Congress was founded in 1992, and it is based in London. One attempt by INC to remove Saddam Hussein (with CIA support) failed in 1995.

When did Clinton come into office?  He was certainly there in 1995.  And therein lies the reason why Hillary Clinton cannot abjure here support for the invasion.  The plans were on the shelf.  All that was missing was an opportunity or rationale.  This Bush Two was more than happy to provide.

Were these activities of the CIA unknown to the Congress?  I doubt it.  Surely Kerry on the Senate Foreign Relations committee was informed.  That's why he could not refute it when Bush Two charged that Democrats had supported the agenda in Iraq all along. 

Tom you were the one that has it sorted out, you tell me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~````

Tom Freidman on Charlie Rose last night took a position backing up Bill Richardson's stance on Iraq. now that is an unlikely convergence

Out. Now.

15.

Tom Bearse
Fri, 08/17/07
9:58 am


Sitka wrote "Never heard of him. But it isn't very nice for countries to go around killing people in other countries."

Yes, as former likes to say, Al Qaeda are people, too.
--------

Well, some may dream of or not regard Al Qaeda fighters as people, that’s Ok...
The problem only, that they prove just the opposite…by killing 3-5 American kids daily. One more year of such a killings and everyone will realize that “they are people too”.

Phil wrote "Tom you were the one that has it sorted out, you tell me.'

I thought it was somewhat obivious that I hadn't sorted out anything.  I tended to think my summary made it clear that what I was reading was virtually incomprehensible.  I need someone to interpret the original source statements made here.  I should give Josh Frank a call.

The "who is toughest" spat has lead to a surge by Richardson, and the "winner" of the spat may well end up in fouth place here.

then Iowa will flip from being accused of too conservative to be representative of the country to being too liberal

maybe this is his damage control. I think we've had enough for long enough and things are pretty clear at this point. Can you imagine how things would be in a year from now in the General election if he actually did become the nominee?

I don't care to waste my time and engery, especially on him.


______________________________


82.

Monica Smith

On the thread topic.
--->> What a concept. :)

Really, wish the Dem's knew how to play hard ball and released this BEFORE war. But then again, too many wanted it, our military force. Heck, what more did they want, they had enough proof that there wasn't proof to call for military force, but as we see, some want to use military force for just about anything.

WAR, LAST RESORT, NOT FIRST.

really do gotta go. ciao!

 I need someone to interpret the original source statements made here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How about you just take Obama at his word? He is pretty clear where he stands. What isn't clear is how that differs from current policy (and the failure to make that distinction doomed Kerry).

Linda wrote "I think we've had enough for long enough and things are pretty clear at this point."

No, I really don't think this is the case at all.

70.

Phil Specht
Fri, 08/17/07
11:10 am


no, former, I will not concede your point

a government of the people, by the people, for the people is possible simply by electing public servants who accept that role
---------

...lol, Sure, I understand that.
Time only will resolve it, time only will show how the general idea can be implemented in particular.

BTW, to my friends here. I purchased a large supply of buttons that if you are supportive of the draft movement and can use a small supply of buttons for yourself and fellow supporters, dfalink me and I will send you some

71.

In the interest of accuracy and because I want people to pay more attention to law enforcement agencies at all levels, I have to note that the initial offending entity is the City of Alachua, a different political jurisdiction akin to the difference between New York City and New York State.  How people are responding to Charlie in the City of Alachua is not peculiar to that community and is probably representative of other repressive towns.  Law enforcement in Alachua County is probably a bit more objective and egalitarian and the jail personnel probably did what they thought best.  With Sadie Darnell as Sheriff, Charlie's probably better off in jail than on the street.  He may be restrained, but he probably won't be disappeared.

Is the latter a possibility?  Yes.  In addition to man's easy addiction to power, there's a long history of resentment (most recently directed at newcomers who challenge the powers that have recently been wrested from the old elites) that may boil over.  Abuse not only gets passed from generation, it gets transfered from race to race.

Watson is probably thinking to himself, "damned if some white boy's gonna tell me what to do, now that I'm in charge."  If that sounds like an echo of what Edwards said to Dean, that's because the poor white underclass in the south was in the same boat as the blacks. 

Phil wrote "How about you just take Obama at his word? He is pretty clear where he stands."

I tried that with Howard Dean but I found out that his words weren't clear enough for some observers to avoid misinterpretation.  In the case of Al Gore, it was his deeds as Vice President that got Josh Frank in an editorial mood.  I thought it would stand to reason that their words and Obama's could stand on their own without embellishment, but this is seemingly not the case. 

Were the original authorization votes:

immoral? dog soldiers interpretation of a "just war"

illegal? Judy, myself, others, reading of International Law

overstepped by abuse of Executive Power? Russ Feingold's contention

lacking common sense? Barrack Obama's charge

84.

People kill.  The people killing americans in Iraq aren't al Qaeda.  Indeed, there's not much evidence that al Qaeda is any more real than the Iraqi National Congress.

What makes us think that someone saying "I am al Qaeda" is any more significant than JFK saying "Ich bin ein Berliner?" 

Take this example, for one.  Obama said "I have never called for an invasion of Pakistan."  A review of his past statements reveals this is the case.  You can nonetheless read here that Obama has stated he would attack Pakistan.  This seems an apparent function of the view that Clinton attacked Afghanistan and the Sudan, that Edwards advocated an attack of Afghanistan, and Cuba would attack the U.S. if it targeted Orlando Bosch here.

95.

Monica Smith
Fri, 08/17/07
11:54 am


What makes us think that someone saying "I am al Qaeda" is any more significant than JFK saying "Ich bin ein Berliner?"
---------

That's a good, worthy point, imo!
Symbolism is an interesting thing.

While many were against the war and supporting Ned Lamont, Obama was helping Harold Ford. Is that anti war?

The vote was wrong enough that John Edwards has apologized for making it.

If a unilateral, pre-emptive war was immoral, illegal, unConstitutional, and stupid, why are our candidates not ruling another use of it out?

so they can win the "I'm the toughest" spat?

66.

Phil Specht


Indeed.

I always find it rather humorous how our present civilization's inhabitants buy and sell the land. In truth the earth and sky has existed a lot longer than this present society dares to contemplate and will it continue on long after this one has been written in the pages of history. It is wise to align oneself with nature. But in order to do that you need to become settled with your being and listen.

"There is no death. Only a change of worlds." "When the Earth is sick, the animals will begin to disappear, when that happens, The Warriors of the Rainbow will come to save them" --- Chief Seattle

http://rainbowwarriors.com/seattle.php

---

Activism
Undocumented Workers

Victor Toro: Chilean Revolutionary by Robert Hirschfield

Now 60, with long straight silver hair that vanishes inside his black beret when the weather turns cold, the Chilean émigré receives visitors in his tiny office dominated by his computer, the prized possession of his old age. His office, with its piles of paper, cans of paint, its quote by Chief Seattle (“The earth does not belong to us, we belong to the earth.”), and its photo of Che, is hidden away inside the ramshackle vastness of La Pena Del Bronx....full article: http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:AII5SWQYkLwJ:www.zmag.org/ZMagSite/Nov2002/Hirschfield1102.htm+Chief+Seattle+Quote+about+the+selling+of+land&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=18&gl=us

Show me an anti Iraq war statement from years ago by Obama, or his being at a major rally against the war in Iraq before or after the war started(not after he decided to run).

98.

Phil Specht
Fri, 08/17/07
12:01 pm


so they can win the "I'm the toughest" spat?
-------
yes, because their previous experience tells them that they can't win otherwise

96.

clearly, an "invasion" is not the same as an attack.  We are all concerned that Bush Two is planning to authorize an attack on Iran, but there's little talk of invading.  Although, if I were Iran, I would consider the unauthorized "visits" by American special forces as an invasion.

also, calling for someone else to authorize an action, is not the same as organizing an action oneself.

I have never called for an invasion of Pakistan.  is an arrogant assertion.  It assumes that it might be appropriate for a person in his position to do so, which I would reject out of hand.

102.

chuck nasmith
Fri, 08/17/07
12:10 pm


Show me an anti Iraq war statement from years ago by Obama...(not after he decided to run).
-------
...lol, it might be tough.

What makes us think that someone saying "I am al Qaeda" is any more significant than JFK saying "Ich bin ein Berliner?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think that is a pretty good interpretation of what al Queda has mestastisized into. Did JFK's words have any power on the eastern side of the wall? Of course they did. and they sure did in our sector of Berlin

al Queda is as big as the sphere of anyone who claims membership and carries out a suicide bombing

it is that brand identification that we need to be countering and I'm not sure the military has much of a role 

Monica wrote "clearly, an 'invasion' is not the same as an attack.."

How do you characterize the distinction?

103.

Monica Smith
Fri, 08/17/07
12:10 pm


clearly, an "invasion" is not the same as an attack....
-------
Yep..., from Military academy professor's point of view..., maybe. Reminds me Clinton's "it wasn't sex".

It is the same Monica, the same.

Paul F. CAMPOS 9/11: The most overblown event in U.S. history
Article Last Updated: 08/16/2007 05:33:34 AM PDT

WHEN STU Bykofsky, a columnist for the Philadelphia Daily News, wrote a column last week in which he openly hoped that America suffers "another 9/11," he merely had the poor judgment to say what many a right-wing politician and pundit is thinking.

Evidence for this is everywhere: in the fact that Bykofsky was invited to appear on the GOP's unofficial network, Fox News, to "explain" his comments; in the keen disappointment that ripples throughout the right-wing blogosphere every time the collapse of a bridge or a steam-pipe explosion turns out not to have been the work of Scary Brown People Who Hate Our Freedoms; and in predictions such as that made by former Sen. Rick Santorum, that the GOP's electoral fortunes will improve as soon as there's another terrorist attack.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/opinion/tri...

Category 2 Hurricane Dean has crossed the lesser Antilles and has started to intensify:

http://www.wunderground.com/tropical/tracking/at200704.html

 

All good prayers and vibes for little Taiwan today!!!

Here's the tracking (note the curving China coast):
http://www.wunderground.com/tropical/tracking/wp200709_sat.html#a_topad

Now look at the satellite image of this monster!
http://www.wunderground.com/tropical/tracking/wp200709_sat.html#a_topad

Folks way down in Manila had chest-deep water, and the storm merely grazed them.
Two of the cities in Taiwan that will take a direct hit today ave over a million people each!!

mprov 

the only claim with traction the GOP makes is "We haven't had another attack."

when a second one occurs on their watch; their support will evaporate

they had better watch what they wish for

better link

Victor Toro: Chilean Revolutionary by Robert Hirschfield: http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Nov2002/Hirschf...

I see that Tom is still in fantasyland regarding the bellicose statements of his klueless kandidate.

#102                Hey promoters, I am waiting,.....

John wrote "I see that Tom is still in fantasyland regarding the bellicose statements of his klueless kandidate."

Regretfully, this isn't going to stand up as contributing to a good faith discussion of the merits.

Whatever awful things you've done during your life, take heart, you're not Karl Rove!

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2007/08/17/notes081707.DTL&nl=fix

The stuff you've done? That horrible little army of things you think are so dire and awful and mean? Child's play. Trifles. Piddly little nothingness of who-the-hell-cares, barely registering on the Richter scale of pain and injustice and true human misprision.

Because now perhaps you are reading up on the rise and fall and much-desirable end of this one particular man, this dank, sweaty, adipose embodiment of a sad political caricature, this shockingly powerful force of darkness and cruelty and pure, unfiltered iniquity known to the world as Karl Rove.

And somehow, looking at him, seeing the glistening, pallid face of true contempt as he finally, blessedly exits the main political stage, you feel better. Much, much better. In fact, somehow you feel like falling to your knees and offering sincere thanks, hot heaps of glorious gratitude to the gods of fate and time and love that you are not Karl Rove.

It is, in its way, a simple acknowledgment, a supremely fundamental idea. But trust me when I say, it holds tremendous power.

You are not Karl Rove. You are not, so far as you know, the master orchestrator of what is increasingly recognized as the most disastrous, divisive, scandal-ridden, secretive, abusive, warmongering, hate-inspiring, homophobic, morally debilitating neoconservative administration in modern American history.

This is not you. This is not your life. You did not put into power the most embarrassing, bumbling, ethically dangerous leader the modern free world has ever known, and that includes Dick Nixon and Warren Harding and that guy from the 1800s who beat his kids and drank paint thinner and died after two weeks in office.

You did not work like a feral dog to rally the most narrow-minded and intolerant and easily terrified segment of our society, the hardcore evangelical Christian right, to support your candidate and his childish, good vs. evil worldview by employing an insidious message of hate and fear and homophobia, all rife with a rather shocking misunderstanding of God and sex and love and complex foreign policy. This, you can be assured, is not you.

chuck wrote "Show me an anti Iraq war statement from years ago by Obama, or his being at a major rally against the war in Iraq before or after the war started (not after he decided to run)."

Are you suggesting he might have changed his mind from believing the invasion was some great idea?  

115. All you have to do is look at the Pakistani reaction to Obama's speech to see that he wasn't talking about a Sunday School picnic in Wajistan!

I'm not sure exactly what you're driving at, chuck.  NY Times op-ed columnist Bob Herbert wrote this on 6/4/04: 

"Mr. Obama has not ducked the issues. He has opposed the war in Iraq from the beginning, and he delivered a stirring antiwar speech at a rally in October 2002. He supports the war in Afghanistan. He believes the Bush tax cuts went too far, and he makes that clear even in appearances before wealthy audiences. He said: 'I tell them, `Look, I think we need to roll back those tax cuts that benefited you. You don't need them. Let's talk about what we could do with that money.' "

If you really don't know Obama's war policy, just scroll back upthread where it's been quoted and discussed. 

NY Times op-ed columnist Bob Herbert wrote this on 6/4/04: 

Why quote a pundit when we've got a blog full of them here? 

Sitka wrote "If you really don't know Obama's war policy, just scroll back upthread where it's been quoted and discussed."

But I think I do know.  I wanted a little more insight from the person I asked. 

Warren Buffet owns alot of insurance co's. Any reports on how his fundraiser for Obama worked out, and who it will work out for?  

Sitka wrote "Why quote a pundit when we've got a blog full of them here?"

I have no idea.  There was a request for it, that's all.

Are you suggesting he might have changed his mind from believing the invasion was some great idea? 

That's the problem Obama has created for himself -- nobody knows where stands and few can trust where he stood.

Amusingly, it's the same problem Edwards has created for himself in an opposite manner. 

#118 What rally, I appreciate your info, and would like to read his speech from then.

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But I think I do know.  I wanted a little more insight from the person I asked.

If you ask what Obama's policy is, the best source is his own words as already quoted ad nauseum. You already know my interpretation of them. 

Just think of what we can achieve together if we change the conventional thinking that’s squandering America’s reputation in the world.

America's reputation has not been squandered by "thinking"  It's been destroyed by our behavior.  It's a Republican characteristic to equate thought with action.  Thinking something is not the same as doing it.

We can stand up for our values and stand against torture.

How does this sentence follow from the previous one?  In any case, would it not be better to say "we stand up for our values by standing against torture"?  The word "can" implies that we might not as in: "we can stand up for our values, but we won't."  Never mind that standing up for values is rather nebulous.    I mean, we stand up when an important person some into a room.  That shows respect.  What does it mean to respect our values?  Strikes me as a redundancy.

We can keep America safe and extend peace and opportunity abroad.

In what way are these two goals connected?  And why, exactly, does America need keeping safe?  Obama's got his wife going around talking about being tired of being afraid.  If we are safe, what is there to be afraid of?  "keep America safe" assumes a threat.  And how does one "extend peace"?  Is that like "spreading Democracy"?  Never mind "opportunity."  You all know what I think about that. 

We can have a foreign policy that the American people are proud of, and set an example of leadership that inspires not hate – but inspires hope – in forgotten corners of the world.

Yes, we can, but do we even want it?  What good is a policy that makes us proud?  Who said that "pride goeth before the fall"?  I think it's time for a little humble pie.  A little honest humble pie.  And, I would venture to suggest, that there's quite a few corners of the world that would just as soon America forgot they exist. What a bunch of self-centered malarky!

And when the American President speaks, the child in the forgotten slum in Bangladesh or the bombed out building in Mogadishu will know that they’re not forgotten – they’ll know that America is on their side. 

Like they really care!!  America is on the side of the Iraqi people and look what it's gotten them.  Maybe there's something in the water in D.C. which causes people to become delusional.

Finally, I know it's nit-picking, but it really bothers me when there's no agreement as to number  ("the child....will know...they're not forgotten")

I HAVE SPENT TOO MUCH TIME ON THIS. 

On thread topic, I had to clean off my sneakers after stepping on a pile of Dog Cheney

Thanks Tom. 

chuck wrote "What rally, I appreciate your info, and would like to read his speech from then."

This is an excerpt from remarks delivered October 26, 2002 at the Federal Plaza in Chicago at a rally organized by the ANSWER coalition:

""What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz other arm-chair, weekend warriors in this Administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

"What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income – to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.

"That’s what I’m opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obam...

chuck, scroll down to political advocacy...

Sitka wrote: "If you ask what Obama's policy is, the best source is his own words as already quoted ad nauseum. You already know my interpretation of them."

Yes, thank you. 

Monica wrote "I HAVE SPENT TOO MUCH TIME ON THIS."

You're not kidding.  Take a break. 

106.

to invade is to go in, unasked and unwelcome

to attack is to clash with another object either with a weapon or in person.

think of "home invasion" as opposed to "breaking and entering" 

Monica wrote "to invade is to go in, unasked and unwelcome, to attack is to clash with another object either with a weapon or in person. think of 'home invasion' as opposed to 'breaking and entering.'"

I'll think of them, but in the context of foreign sovereigns, this appears to be a welter of synonyms. 

Do you think he is a Hillary plant trying to get the blog to question Obama's stand, or a professional provocateur?  or just pretending to be one because he's bored lol

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As you know, before Congress adjourned for August, they bowed yet again to the fear-mongering tactics of the President and his administration, and in the end Americans have fewer rights and are not any safer.  The White House can now intercept the phone calls and emails of American citizens without a warrant, without a court order, and with virtually zero judicial oversight.

So why did the Democratic led Congress allow this to pass?  Because the President - as he has done time and time again - played the fear card.

Starting with the unwise passage of the PATRIOT Act, on through the resolution authorizing force in Iraq, and continuing with the domestic wiretapping legislation that passed earlier this month, the administration has figured out that all they have to do is start talking about an imminent terrorist threat, manipulate some of the facts, and Democrats will be intimidated into simply rolling over and supporting any power grab legislation they’re proposing.

The Bush White House knows all too well how to deal in the politics of fear.  And that's not going to stop just because Karl Rove won't be working there come September.  Democrats need to start standing up and pushing back.

Contribute to the Progressive Patriots Fund today to help push back the politics of fear

Since 2005, the Progressive Patriots Fund has been an organization aggressively promoting a progressive vision for our country.  Whether it's through our petitions, citizen cosponsor resolutions, calls to contact your elected officials on a certain issue, email campaigns, or the like, hundreds of thousands of people like you have answered the call and helped us push back the politics of fear.

Support the Progressive Patriots Fund

With your financial support, we can continue our work to get our country back on track.  The wiretapping legislation that passed earlier this month expires in six months and Congress will once again have an opportunity to beat back the politics of fear.  Please consider a contribution today to help the Progressive Patriots Fund force elected Democrats to stand up and fight back.

Sincerely,

Russ Feingold
United States Senator
Honorary Chair, Progressive Patriots Fund

137. i think its more a matter of scale.

131.

Tom Bearse
Fri, 08/17/07
12:55 pm


........
This is an excerpt from remarks delivered October 26, 2002 at the Federal Plaza in Chicago at a rally organized by the ANSWER coalition:

""What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz other arm-chair, weekend warriors in this Administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne....

---------

And AFTER such a remarks Obama votes ZERO times (till becoming candidate) against that same "dumb" war funding!

Does he have ANY principles and how one can believe his words after that?

mprov wrote "i think its more a matter of scale."

That sheds some light.  That seems at least arguable.

Now how would you attack a country as oppose to invade it, assuming the former would be a smaller scale endeavor.  What would be the necessary elements?  State action?  Timothy McVeigh, for example, couldn't have attacked the U.S. by blowing up the federal building in Oklahoma?

And AFTER such a remarks Obama votes ZERO times (till becoming candidate) against that same "dumb" war funding!

That's why his credibilty is at zero with so many. 

*r did you see the video @

http://iowa.barackobama.com/page/content/roadtochange

?

It's nice:

just an acoustic guitar, the rolling land, sun. and the folks of Iowa.  Oh ya, and Barack thread through...

I grow weary of childish questions. Later.

Sitka wrote "I grow weary of childish questions. Later."

That's a bad break.  I'm trying to determine if this is a temper tantrum or just twisting the discussion.  

to invade is part of a process where one side (the invader) seeks a material change in the relationship for the benefit of the invader.  For example:  one may inflict harm, which may be mortal or varying in severity to superficial.

or not.

a temper tantrum or just twisting the discussion

>

Should one ask w/not you have evidence to support either contention?

Sitka, I like your band.  Thanks for posting it earlier.

Imn2 wrote "Should one ask w/not you have evidence to support either contention?"

I wouldn't think so.

page 11 of the AFL CIO Democratic Candidates Debate:

SEN. BIDEN: (Madame ?), I’m sorry about -- I understand what it’s like to lose a spouse, and it’s not an easy thing, and my heart goes out to you.

I would implement every one of the recommendations that have been already made and have not been implemented. The president of the United Mine Workers is sitting down there. He’s forgotten more about this than most of us know.

But folks, I got to say something here. Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. The truth of the matter is, none of what you heard earlier is correct. It’s already the policy of the United States, has been for four years, that if there was actionable intelligence, we would go into -- into Pakistan. That’s the law.

Secondly, it’s already the law, that I wrote into the law, saying that in fact we don’t cooperation from Musharraf, we cut off his money.

It’s time everybody start to know the facts -- the facts. (Booing.)

MR. OLBERMANN: Senator Biden, thank you.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/08/us/pol...

==============

I think Obama's being bashed for a matter of law (if Biden is right).

If Obama was or is against the war, why did he not help Ned Lamont? Could it be a Cup of Joe and the dlc? Will I vote for Hillary? I would write myself in before falling for the anybody but stuff.

Grundy Center, Ames, Des Moines, Oskaloosa and Ottumwa, Iowa – On the fourth day of Senator John Edwards' "Fighting for One America" tour, Edwards called for a major expansion of children's health insurance as an immediate step toward universal health care. Edwards also unveiled his Iowa Children and Youth Cabinet, a wide-ranging group of Iowans with first hand knowledge of the issues facing young people today. The group consists of 31 children's advocates, community leaders, teachers and parents from across the state who will advise Edwards and his campaign on children's policy.

Both houses of Congress have passed bills to expand the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) to cover an additional four to five million children. There are currently nine million children in America without health insurance—51,000 of whom live in Iowa — yet President Bush has threatened to veto the expansion. Edwards, who was the first presidential candidate to propose a truly universal health care plan, is urging Republicans in Congress to stand with Democrats and override that veto if necessary, and put the health of America's children ahead of insurance company profits.

"George Bush cites philosophical concerns about expanding children's health insurance," Edwards said. "In reality, his philosophy is denying nine million kids health insurance. While we cannot be satisfied until every man, woman and child in America is covered by a truly universal health care plan, this bill is a step in the right direction and is action that can be taken today. I hope for the sake of our children that George Bush stops siding with insurance companies over kids and withdraws his threat to veto the expansion of health care for kids. And if he does veto kids' health care, I hope every member of Congress – Republican, Democrat or Independent – will stand up for our children and override the veto. Our kids deserve nothing less."

Expanding SCHIP is one of the cornerstones of Edwards' plan to cover every single man, woman and child in America. Under the Edwards health care plan, every American will enjoy true universal coverage, the choice of a public plan, reduced costs, and higher-quality health care.

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. military is planning a series of "quick-strike" attacks all around Iraq to go after militants who evaded the big military operation of recent weeks, a top commander said Friday.

That's what invading is about.  The *scale* and time frame vary with the desired outcome.  It's what a military does during the day (and in our case - night).

chuck wrote "If Obama was or is against the war, why did he not help Ned Lamont?"

Here we go. It seems like old times.

s/b @ last 

the first paragraph = http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1152AP_US_Iraq.html

...the second from me.

Charlie Grapski -- I know he's 'friends' here -- but here's what I understand as fact -- he wrote a bad check, the clerk wouldn't accept it, Charlie left it anyway. What's so admirable about that? Of course, after you gas up your car, I don't know how you would get the gas out -- around here lots of times we have to prepay.

Cops -- I don't live in Alachua but neighboring Clay Co. I've called the cops many times on silly things - noisy neighbor, a $20 the clerk said was fake and wouldn't accept (bill was old-bank exchanged), a funny animal noise next door (was a coon couldn't get out of a pool -- cop got him out.) They are always here in NO TIME and are polite and take care of whatever I wanted taken care of.

What's so admirable about that?

>

Nice  post, Annilow.  You sum it up pretty well.  The facts are still unknown.  One thing for certain is that Charlie has found an intersection, which the police frequent, and he's not about to move along.

158. thx Paine.

I saw the Kieth O video concerning mine safety in America this decade.

I've spoken in the past about Ayn Rand and her apparent followers. 

I guess I didn't think she favored the parasites. 

The parasite profit on the decay.

Our mines, government, military, society, etc have been forced to decay to feed  loyalty.  Loyalty not to WE THE PEOPLE.

Daniel Biss, Northside DFA (NDFA) member and candidate for Illinois 17th State Rep district, has been officially endorsed by NDFA.   Congratulations, Daniel!  And we can get started helping right away at his star-studded petition kick-off rally this Sunday.  The rally starts at 2:00, we will meet at 1:00 to carpool to the rally.  RSVP and details here:

http://www.dfalink.com/event.php?id=22230

For those still getting to know Daniel, here is a quote from a recent Chicago Reader blog:

"In a phone interview Biss told me he doesn't support Governor Rod Blagojevich's gross receipts tax proposal. Although he says education, transit, and health care need more money, he wouldn't support a tax increase without serious tightening of ethics laws to make sure the money goes where it's supposed to, significant additional tightening of corporate tax loopholes, and provisions like enlarged personal exemptions and increased earned income tax credit to make sure that the burden falls more on those who can afford it.

[From Biss's] interview on Firedoglake: 'I keep coming back to etymology: progressives like progress, which means that we’re focused on the future. Believing in a better future has to also mean planning for and making a better future. And I find it flabbergasting how little of that goes on in our politics today.""

He had me at "etymology."  :-)

Seen the new thread?

A break from the boxes ... I could have sworn that I gave away or threw out tons of things when I moved into this tiny place, but now that I am unearthing things from the cupboards and closets, it seems like there are one heck of a lot of boxes around here ... and all of them are full. Of *stuff.*

What do those items get up to behind closed doors?

**************
This is from DU. Insult added to the injuries ... after 55 years.

================
Short of Purple Hearts, Navy tells vet to buy own
Source: Houston Chronicle

PEARLAND — Korean War veteran Nyles Reed, 75, opened an envelope last week to learn a Purple Heart had been approved for injuries he sustained as a Marine on June 22, 1952.

But there was no medal. Just a certificate and a form stating that the medal was "out of stock."

"I can imagine, of course, with what's going on in Iraq and Afghanistan, there's a big shortage," Reed said. "At least, I would imagine so."

.......

After waiting 55 years, however, Reed decided to pay $42 for his own Purple Heart and accompanying ribbon — plus state sales taxes — at a military surplus store.

[...]
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metr...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/dis...

Thanks for the notice, Tom ... I was surprised not to see you with firsties.

Annilow 

my bank has a feature called "safety check" which is a little line of credit to cover miscalculating the checkbook and puts money into checking automatically if it runs short

it is possible that my check wouldn't clear the automatic system at a convenience store and yet still be "good"

that would be the "facts" of my case and I'll bet I would try (and likely succeed) to get the store manager to keep the check as evidence of my good faith if I had no other way to pay that day (and I never carry cash)

since the loan isn't triggered til there is a "negative" balance, technically I would have "insufficient funds" for an instant or two

since banks don't have to instantly credit your deposits and can hold deposits for days while clearing checks before or after crediting deposits I'll bet very few people that have an active checking account know precisely their balance at all times

I'm pretty sure Charlie's first charge wouldn't come close to sticking in a court of law if you could ever get a prosecuter to press charges which wouldn't ever be likely but our courts would sure get clogged if over-draft charges were criminal events

how would a bank make a profit?

all jails are required by law to have surveillance cameras so the truth of the "struggle" will come out in court, meanwhile they made their point about being the ones with the keys to the bars

Charlie might be pressing his luck but he is doing it for a righteous cause.  

chuck wrote "If Obama was or is against the war, why did he not help Ned Lamont?"

Here we go. It seems like old times.

Those damned records that politicians have to live with.