Dean is first.

The format in which his KOS speech was recorded needs some work. 

Can't wait for more comments from the "Good Democrats", sort of like the "Good Germans" of WWII, castigating me and others for telling the truth about the pathetic creeps who purport to represent us in congress!

Clinton's Real YearlyKos Conflict: Fundraiser At Billionaire Ron Perelman's Estate In East Hamptons

And we're supposed to believe she's better than the Repugs?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/time-for-a-democracy-move_b_58507.html

WHAT DEMOCRACY? AND THANKS DEMOCRATS FOR TRASHING MORE OF OUR RIGHTS

What country is this? The president is claiming the right to keep his aides from testifying for Congress about the U.S. attorneys scandal; hundreds of men -- according to a Seton Hall study, many of them innocent -- are in legal limbo in Guantanamo Bay; U.S. agents are kidnapping people off the streets in Italy and Macedonia and `rendering' them to be tortured; the president and his lawyers claim the executive has the right to call anyone -- U.S. citizen or not -- an `enemy combatant' -- and the person who should decide what that means is the President himself; civil rights organizations say peaceful citizens' groups are being infiltrated and put under surveillance; and a new bill just made it easier, as Senator Patrick Leahy warned, for the president -- any president of whatever party -- to declare martial law.

Americans across the political spectrum are increasingly uneasy. We have always had a sense of our own invincibility in relation to our democracy: the system, many of us believe, simply rights itself. But we have to face the fact that when checks and balances are being systematically dismantled -- when the Constitution is under such sustained assault -- our assumption that democracy will protect us without our active intervention is dangerously naive.

The Founders would have been appalled at the helplessness that most people feel today in the face of serious encroachments upon our freedom and liberty -- just as they would have been at the encroachments themselves. The system they set up -- if it is working properly -- is the most transformative and empowering of the individual on earth. They would have counted on each of us to rise up in defense of what they created and to directly challenge those who assert that they are not answerable to the American people -- and not bound by the American system and the rule of law.

Huron John
Sun, 08/05/07
9:47 am
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Independents and Free Thiners MUST stand our ground from now on...........the Democrats have made false promises year after year, dcade after decade and 2004 was the final blow job..............enough, time to move on or out.

As far as I'm concerned John, keep right on ahead posting...

John, yes, it is amazing, The very people who claim we are attacking others, because we voice our concern and speak truth to power and not just fall in line, do so to us, the bloggers instead of the candidates we have issues with and are the ones running for office and making those claims in question.

I'll bet all you Democratic loyalists are proud of the brave 41 who betrayed their party--and their country. Also of the "strong" congressional leadership that allowed it to happen.

Can you imagine 41 Republicans defying their party?

Hey has anybody heard from IndySteve?   I wish Thankful and I could have connected with him and the other Dean People at YK. Steve actually returned Thankful's call while we were heading out to dinner in Evanston. Unfortunately we wouldn't have gotten all the way to McCormick Place in time to really visit.

But finally, after all these years, I did get a chance to talk to Steve! And Thankful and I had a good visit too.

11. Hey donna, no one has been on that is there.  A good sign that they are staying busy and having way too much fun.  Indy of course made time for us when he first got there, but things must have really picked up.

John and Chiliman, agreed.

I swore I typed a c. Sorry chilimac

John, a huff post by Pelosi you posted yesterday?


Christine Pelosi| BIO | I'M A FAN OF THIS BLOGGER


Live from Chicago, President ....

Posted August 4, 2007 | 03:25 PM (EST)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christine-...

AMAZING how one never seems to answer the question. If anything, repeats the question that "we have to look at that....[problem you just asked about]. BUT never gives you their plan on how to handle that or even if they consider it a problem, just to look at it.

EVEN ON THE 50 State strategy?


How do folks think we can progress forward. We've seen so many examples of people even just saying what folks want to hear and doing another, let a lone NOT saying what folks want to hear, when boths records clearly show WHAT THEY DO.

Folks can't say "we had no idea" any more.

This from Juan Cole on nuking Pakistan...
Our candidates remain clueless.
http://www.juancole.com/


Hillary Clinton criticized Obama for (initially?) ruling out the use of nuclear weapons, saying that a president should not take any weapon in the arsenal off the table.

I really think the Democrats are misunderstanding the mood of the American people. Is Senator Clinton saying she would entertain the option of nuking Pakistan or Afghanistan? Wouldn't that kill a lot of innocents and spread radioactive materials around on the grass that cows eat, putting it into milk and thence into local children, increasing their chances of contracting cancer? Isn't Obama absolutely right that this is one instance in which nukes are useless for tactical purposes?

Pakistan, by the way, is a) an ally, b) a nuclear power in its own right, c) a major Muslim country of 160 million, the population of which will soon equal that of the United States, and d) an opinion leader among other Muslim states. Most Pakistanis are not fundamentalists but rather Sufis, traditionalists, mild reformists or secularists. Or at least that is the case now. If US presidential candidates push them to the wall, they can after all decide to turn radical.

Am I seing things or what?  Why are the republicans having a debate at THIS hour of the morning?  A good portion of republicans are still in bed right now, hung over from the night before in trailer parks across the land...............or just getting out of jail after a night of beating their wives or kids after a few bar room brawls across various red states............................

I think it very important to keep the pressure on from the netroots; and I'm a loyal Democrat but "get in line" is out of line.

But just contemplate how far we have come. The DLC and kos went head to head and the candidates came to Chicago.

and not a one voted to expand Bush's power, siding with Feingold

it is probably because we are going to raise $50 million when the time comes to put the hammer down, and in part condescension to that cash cow ; but we are the energy of the party, the leadership of the activists, and the source of truths to rally behind, the keeper of the flame

Linda*in*SFNM
Sun, 08/05/07
10:16 am
They were very booked as far  as I can tell.  Steve went to a Teamsters sponsored barbeque yesterday evening.  He was participating in activities all day.  He did tell us that he saw Marcia Moody, firefox, and Terri in Tokyo!

John wrote "And we're supposed to believe [Clinton's] better than the Repugs?"

Obviously not.  Giuliani, McCain, Romney, Thompson, Hunter, Tancredo, Brownback, Huckabee, Thompson, Paul: they're all leagues better than Clinton.

My personal favorite is Paul.  Dave is here to tell us Paul's not the corporate whore that the leading Democratic candidates are.  He then goes off on Hal Ford's DLC minions for being such conservative troglodytes. 

Isn't it great?  Ron Paul and his 0% NARAL rating being boosted on the Democracy for America blog!  Ford would sign on to Paul's bill to scuttle Roe v Wade without hesitation, only he supports stem cell research, so that's a slight problem.  Relatively speaking though, they're two conservatives.   It's just that Paul is a true conservative.

So we're not supposed to believe Clinton's better than Republicans, but are we supposed to believe Paul is better than Democrats?  Yes, we are supposed to, but  I  would never have known if I hadn't read it here.  Fortunately, I won't be getting pregnant so a Paul push is no concern of mine.  That will be my daughter's problem. 

I just posted the last part of Howard Dean's keynote address, FYI.

Obama lost me with his attack on Pakistan talk, and then partly won me back by ruling out nukes and it was Hillary's turn to get on my sh*t list ruling them in. The whole who is tougher spat really lost me. That said I watched the Republicans and both are head and shoulders above that crew.

20. COOL. Thanks. maybe we'll get some first hand reports here.

Phil, sometimes I think a devining rod would work just as well as listening to these guys pontificate.  Just point it at each candidate and see which one it reacts to. 

Yes Phil, I agree. And for someone to call us unDemocratic or worse, because we don't just fall inline or just give baseless praise is ridiculous and counter to what they claim.

Phil Specht
Sun, 08/05/07
10:53 am

Well said, Phil.

And Tom, just give me one example of Hillary being better than the Repugs.

Just One!

I still think Huckabee to be the most electable Republican from his answers.

The fact of the matter is, it shouldn't be true, but it is a revolutionary idear to have the public taking over the agenda of campaigns and political parties had better get used to it, because they are going to lose and become irrelevant if they don't get used to it. The power in campaigns belongs as much to shifting networks of committed citizens as it does to the political establishment. And in the long run, community-built networks will have a more dramatic effect in bringing democracy to both America and to creating democracy where it doesn't exist now--I predict now, that because of the net, and because of the extraordinary binding of the world together, that Iran and China one day will have to decide that they have to become democracies, simply because they are forced to by the extraordinary devolution of power to their citizens because of the internet.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

from Renee part two

John wrote "just give me one example of Hillary being better than the Repugs."

Criteria for someone's vote is personal, but if I had to choose Clinton over any generic Republican whatsoever, it would be for these reasons, any one of which make her a better choice in my view.  She supported Gene McCarthy's presidential campaign in college.  She took on child abuse cases at the Yale-New Haven Hospital while a law student.  She worked on Sen. Mondale's subcommittee on migrant workers.  She worked on the George McGovern campaign.  She served as a staff attorney for the Children's Defense Fund.  She was a consultant to the Carnegie Council on Children.  She advised the House Judiciary Committee during the Watergate investigation.  She did pro bono children's advocacy work at the Rose Law firm.  Lastly, on a political spectrum, she is far, far, far to the left of any of the Republican buffoons babbling this morning on ABC.

Yard work for me today...yesterday was a day long marathon of events (all with me corporate America flag shirt on, company logos where the stars should be). Best part of the day was doing free face painting on all the little ones though driving the old Willys jeep through the crowd of 15+ thousand collecting fireworks funds wasn't too bad either, didn't run anyone over either...lol. This morning found a few youtube clips worth a look at...

Bush Power Grab May-07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jatpX6kuxHQ

President Evil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOIUYdO-0bY&mode=related&search=

Woodbridge, VA spot checks for illegals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ev9CiGLvQE

I've still got that gut feeling that something's going to happen which Americans will not like but Bushco will love. Kinda like the fireworks last night, why set them all up if you're not going to light 'em?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/5/8...

We will be gagging as the Dem Lizards start spinning.

THIS IS SERIOUS STUFF FOLKS

http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney05032007.html

Tremors from the real estate earthquake won't be limited to housing--they will rumble through all areas of the economy including the stock market, financial sector and currency trading. There is simply no way to minimize the effects of a bursting $4.5 trillion equity bubble.

The next shoe to drop will be the stock market which is still flying-high from increases in the money supply. The Federal Reserve has printed up enough fiat-cash to keep overpriced equities jumping for joy for a few months longer. But it won't last. Wall Street's credit bubble is even bigger than the housing bubble---a monstrous, lumbering dirigible that's headed for a crash-landing.

Wall Street is just enjoying the last wisps of Greenspan's low interest helium swirling into the largest credit bubble in history. But there are big changes on the way. In fact, the storm clouds have already formed over the housing market. The subprime albatross has lashed itself to everything in the economy ---dragging down consumer confidence, GDP and (eventually) the stock market, too. The real damage is just beginning to materialize.

The reason the stock market is flying-high is because the Federal Reserve has been ginning up the money supply to avoid a Chernobyl-type meltdown. All that new funny-money has to go somewhere, so a lot of it winds up in the stock market.

Every time the Fed prints up another batch of crisp $100 bills; they're confiscating the hard-earned savings of working class people and retirees. And, since the dollar has dropped roughly 40% since Bush took office in 2000; the government has absconded with 40% our life savings.

The present currency and economic crises were brought on by Bush's unfunded tax cuts, unsustainable trade deficits, and the Fed's hyperinflationary monetary policy. These policies were executed simultaneously for maximum effect. They were entirely premeditated. Many people now believe that the Bush administration and the Federal Reserve are intentionally creating an "Argentina-type meltdown" so they can privatize state owned assets and usher in the North American Union--the future "one state" alliance of Canada, Mexico and US--along with the new regional currency, the Amero.

The stock market IS floating on a cloud of cheap credit created by a humongous trade deficit, artificially low interest rates, and a 10% yearly expansion of the money supply. Like he says, "It cannot go on forever." And, we don't expect that it will.

So someone really likes Huckabee.

Here is his site...
http://mikehuckabee.com/

A few lowlights:
Overturn the ban on assault weapons and overturn the Brady Bill
Overturn RvW.
Insurance companies still rule in health care.
Is clueless on immigraiton...
Forbid gay marriages
Stay the course in Iraq
Bigger Army..kill more people...whoopee
He doesn't mention creationisim but earlier said he beleives in intellegent design vs. evolution.

yep..my kind of guy...should be yours to.

Tom, but what has she done in the last decade or so?

• where is her health plan?
• where is her plan for ending the Iraq occupation?
• Where is her plan for ending media monopolies?
• Where is her plan for cutting Big Oil, health insurance companies, and Big Pharma down top size?
• where is her plan for taking money out of politics? (heh heh)

Morning Folks,

We had our internet transmitter replaced yesterday.  It has been awful trying to get email or get on the Internet.  It timed out, went nowhere.  So, now back on.  How much we've come to depend on the communication and information of a net society.

Listened to NPR this morning.  With too small a majority, stopping Bush is not possible according to the commentator.  Maybe. 

We attended our Meetup in Estes Park last week.  Just  four of us.  The  organizer said that maybe the Democrats  who were elected fed the too-high expectations of the grassroots, but just read some of the comments on KOS, and yes, there was no excuse for caving on the FISA Act. 

One of the people at our small meetup said that he was a friend of Ramsey Clark and Clark said that Gore was the only intelligent member of Congress: you could have a conversation with Gore about issues.

I do have the sense that most of the people in Congress resemble the make-up of a high school graduating class.  Very few have any real intelligence, passion, commitment, or integrity.

Thanks, Renee, for posting Howard Dean's speech.  Huron John, Michael Ellis, keep on posting.  I always read your posts and learn something, you also, Tom., and Linda in SFNM, Judy for Dean, Seashell, Phil, and many more.

My computer just shut down, but Mozilla let me restore.  Groan! 

I'm saying hi and rambling. Old Timmy Russert had some competition this morning with the Repugs on ABC (like I really wanted to watch that lol) and a guy named Axe who is a freelance war correspondent on CSPAN which was very interesting. He had some footage from Afghanistan that wasn't just shoot 'em ups - pictures of street scenes from Kabul that were very interesting - so I chose CSPAN. Before that Steve Scully had Byron York on to (I thought he said) was going to talk about Yearly KOS. Turns out York didn't even go to YK and they quickly switched the topic to the Repug presidential candidates, so I sent a nastigram to Scully. He redeemed himself (sorta) by having McJoan on the phone for a few minutes and then doing open phones on the influence of the blogosphere which was pretty much underwhelming.

I did have an AHA moment this morning while watching something - end of MTP or maybe Chris Matthews from something Fineman said that set me to thinking (tinfoil had firmly in place). Is the reason Obama (and keep in mind I'm leaning Obama) but is the reason Obama is in the race b/c he keeps the prospect of a female Pres (Hill) from seeming so 'out there'? Think about it -- if Hill were running against a bunch of old white guys we wouldn't look any different from the Repugs (as Howard said in his Keynote - like something out of the 1950's). But with Obama (a black guy for heaven sake) also in the mix, somehow a woman doesn't seem so remarkable -- or scary. Just a thought.

Guess that's all for now.

Oh -- a prediction. Mitt Romney will be the next President. (I didn't say it was a happy prediction.)

See y'all later.

And since the FISA vote issue is being discussed, I should mention that we are witnessing some of the birthing pains of Chairman Dean's 50 state strategy, away from DLC gladhander and bagman Terry McAuliffe's show me the money strategy. 

His compressed primary schedules, state of the art fundraising facilities, electability campaigns and warm relations with the elite beltway insiders were actually useful in cultivating the most liberal candidates to elected office, because the strategy concentrated on the liberal bastions of the east and west coasts, securing safe districts for liberal candidates who could fearlessly flaunt their views without risk of losing reelection.  Areas of the country where more moderate political views prevailed, however, were simply written off.

Dean recognized this.  He'd go to southern states and mention that the party would lock horns with local partisans on the abortion debate, but said that social and cultural issues were not only losing playing fields for Democrats there, but were smoke screens to hide the economic issues on which white and relatively poor southern whites should share common cause with Democrats.

In doing so, he was obviously ceding some of the debate territory to the views of more politically moderate Americans, because there was no other way to coax voters in southern and western red states towards Democratic candidates.  Check out the areas of the country where the Democratic yes votes came from. 

It's not that Republicans represent more mainstream views, it's that taxes and defense issues are the easiest to use to sway single issue, ambivalent, uninterested, or intellectually lazy voters at election time.  On average, the Democratic policy platform is much closer to the views of average Americans, but making use of the advantage by increasing Democratic majorities is going to have to come at the cost of introducing office holders into the majority, like Blue Dogs, who represent more conservative constituencies.  The process is gradual, and without patience, it will tend to be very frustrating. 

About Clinton John wrote:

"[W]here is her health plan?  where is her plan for ending the Iraq occupation?  Where is her plan for ending media monopolies? Where is her plan for cutting Big Oil, health insurance companies, and Big Pharma down top size? where is her plan for taking money out of politics? (heh heh)."

I'm not supporting her or following her campaign so much to be able to answer these, except to say her views on health care, the Iraq conflict, education and labor issues are better than Republicans.  

I'm repeating this, but I support candidates because of their political views, their perspective, and their ability to inspire trust.  I don't do it based strictly on discrete policy positions. 

That's why I supported Gore and Dean in the last two cycles.  It wasn't from any concensus on the issues necessarily. it was from a belief in the candidates, their vision, and trust. Bradley may have been regarded as more liberal than Gore by some political analyses, Kucinich more liberal than Dean.  The candidates prospects, as a strictly political consideration, also play a role.  Nevertheless, I believed in those two candidates without reservation, and made a decision based on that.

I won't vote for Clinton in our state primary, but if she's on the ballot in November?  I will not be able to get to the polling place fast enough to end eight miserable years of the execrable Bush regime.

A few lowlights:
Overturn the ban on assault weapons and overturn the Brady Bill
Overturn RvW.
Insurance companies still rule in health care.
Is clueless on immigraiton...
Forbid gay marriages
Stay the course in Iraq
Bigger Army..kill more people...whoopee
He doesn't mention creationisim but earlier said he beleives in intellegent design vs. evolution.

yep..my kind of guy...should be yours to.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

sounds like a reThug heart throb to me, the kind they rally behind

Can't wait for more comments from the "Good Democrats", sort of like the "Good Germans" of WWII, castigating me and others for telling the truth about the pathetic creeps who purport to represent us in congress!

It's OK. There are only a few party-liners on this blog now. Brushing them off with a joke is easy.

I still think Huckabee to be the most electable Republican from his answers. 

"electable"

How can anyone possibly think they know how others will vote?

I was talking about Iowa Republican caucus goers who I know better than most of you and Huckabee is ideologically aligned with them. that list from dog pretty much defines them (and him)

Romney is spending an enormous sum on the straw poll and it will be meaningless if he wins but the second and third place will be forces in the caucus

I was talking about Iowa Republican caucus goers who I know better than most of you and Huckabee is ideologically aligned with them.

You still can't say with any meaninful accuraccy how others will vote. 

(I've taken a personal vow to never let the odius nonsense word "electable" pass without a slap at it.) 

You still can't say with any meaninful accuraccy how others will vote.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The whole GOTV effort is built around you being wrong Sitka

I won't vote for Clinton in our state primary, but if she's on the ballot in November?  I will not be able to get to the polling place fast enough to end eight miserable years of the execrable Bush regime.

On the one hand, the Bush Regime will end regardless of whether Hillary or one of the other pro-war, pro-corporate Dems wins.

On the other hand, the Bush Regime will carry on regardless of whether one of them wins.

How will I vote? I still believe as I did in 2004 that crawling into a politician's hip pocket by pledging my vote is the best way to ensure my opinion will be ignored.

The whole GOTV effort is built around you being wrong Sitka

You're using an apple to justify an orange. Asking people to vote is nothing like predicting which candidate will win based on guessing about what others like. 

I'd never heard the word "electable" before Kerry's campaign used it to justify his political existence. He obviously wasn't "electable." So, as a meaningful term, it failed the test.

38. Tom, I have to admit that I would probably hold my nose and vote for Hillary (like I did with Kerry), if the only choice were between her anf any of these Republican Neanderthals. If there were a credible third party or independent candidate (e.g. Bloomberg), I'd probably vote for him/her.

Being asked to choose between Hillary and a Republican is sort of like choosing to be sodomized by a smooth, cylindrical object rather than a jagged piece of broken glass.

In fact, the very suffix "able" denotes uncertainty........

join a canvassing effort sometime Sitka and go up to a front door and have a political conversation with a voter you have never met

after a few thousand you get a feel for it

Kerry won because he indentified and motivated VietNam vets to go to their first caucus

they have now become a large enough force in the party that last month's meeting was in part a negotiation as to how to accomodate them (whether or not to formally acknowledge veterans on par with labor and others)

howdy all! hope you're all doing well! I'm just chiming in with my dime's worth.

I haven't given up on the Democratic party. sadly, at this point in the game, it would be practically IMPOSSIBLE for them to make law, impeach, restore constitution, etc. fast enough for my liking, so I'm trying to have patience and look at the progress swe've made and pray someone is watching putz, prick and puke (condi) closely enough to keep matters from getting seriously worse than they already are. we've made strides, big strides.

as for the candidates, I was pleased they all attended yk2 and dissed the dlc, but then I woke up and realized that staying away was probably as much an agreed upon strategy as anything we've seen. just because they didn't show up means NOTHING, really. it's what they do with them behind closed doors we need to be wary of. as for the dust up between Obama and Hillary - well done! I'm not too fond of any of the candidates and this created all the more reason for Gore to enter the race.

RUN, Al, RUN!

Sitka wrote "On the other hand, the Bush Regime will carry on regardless of whether one of them wins."

Ha, ha.  Here are your fellow commiseraters:  Iowa Republicans, according to a report in today's Washington Post. 

"Just 19 percent of likely GOP caucus attendees said they were 'very satisfied' with the field of candidates -- far below satisfaction levels among Iowa Democrats -- and poll respondents were badly fractured when asked to rate the candidates on political and personal attributes."

" . . . .

"Fifty-three percent of Democrats said they are very satisfied with the field of candidates, compared with the one-in-five likely Republican caucus-goers who described themselves as very satisfied."

yes Sitka that is how I used it with Huckabee, that he is palatable to rank and file Republicans, because his platform is in synch with theirs

it will be of no surprise to me if he beats McCain in the straw poll

John wrote "Being asked to choose between Hillary and a Republican is sort of like choosing to be sodomized by a smooth, cylindrical object rather than a jagged piece of broken glass."

Okay, you've made my decision much easier than I thought it would be.

53.

Tom Bearse
Sun, 08/05/07
1:14 pm

John wrote "Being asked to choose between Hillary and a Republican is sort of like choosing to be sodomized by a smooth, cylindrical object rather than a jagged piece of broken glass."

Okay, you've made my decision much easier than I thought it would be.
------------

...lol, I just wish Tom good luck with that choice.

I have to admit that I would probably hold my nose and vote for Hillary (like I did with Kerry), if the only choice were between her anf any of these Republican Neanderthals.


--->>and that's what the DLC is banking on. ABR.

and in the end, the people will lose.

you get a feel for it

A "feel" is still just a guess. 

RUN, Al, RUN!

But if the term "electable" can be applied with certainty to anyone it would be Gore, since he was in fact elected. 

Here are your fellow commiseraters:  Iowa Republicans

Being dissatisfied with candidates who betray a party's core beliefs helps make it a better one than falling in line just to win.

join a canvassing effort sometime Sitka and go up to a front door and have a political conversation with a voter you have never met

I think it takes a lot of gall to go to someone's door in order to sell them something.

I have a lot of issues with all Dems.
Hillary, who once upon a time was great in defending women and children, is showing people do not really matter that much. Maybe from her lofty Senate perch she now sees people as consumable items. Because when you nuke them, they are consumed. Even though she is a fixture on the Armed Forces Committee, she is still clueless about what the military can do. To support troops in harms way knowing what she knows about how this war has devastated the military and the Iraqis is almost criminal. Maybe she has taken so much special interest money she doesn't really care about problems that individuals have; they become an aggregate; a voting block that with just enough slicing, dicing and a few pounds of sugar, will propel her to the WH.

Obama seems better suited to people issues but he often displays rank immaturity in foreign policy and dealing with the other side. I was furious when he escorted and seemed to fawn allover Condi Rice at her SOS coronation hearings. During the “cut the funding” discussion, he said do not worry...the troops will get the money, which effectively killed any chance of stopping the war. He is correct on nukes then hemmed and hawed a little before settling on no nukes - like there is any other choice. He is very tentative in foreign policy discussions.

Edwards has got the populist message down pat because he has internalized it. He is still truly ignorant on foreign policy issues. That was his weakness in 2004 and it is still his greatest weakness now.

Biden has a few good ideas and is almost the opposite of Edwards. He is mature on foreign policy but immature on domestic issues. I do not think domestic issues are very important to him.

I like Dennis and Gravel. Even though Gravel is too old for me, his ideas are the youngest. He still shows the most imagination and ethics compared to the big three. He is never afraid of public opinion when he makes a choice. His actions to end the VN war and bring the Pentagon Papers to light shows the character he has. This was a big deal and he saved a lot of lives.
Dennis has a lot of good ideas and a lot of wacky ideas. Cleveland Rocks.

Here's George Will (huh?) on Christ Dodd:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20121785/sit...

White-Haired Guy Gets Mad

Dodd has raised enough money to spread his message in early contests and be, he says, "structurally ready" if it resonates. But what is it? There was no sign of it in a recent conversation until, in response to a question about what makes him angry, something rare enough to be riveting appeared—unfeigned indignation about the lawlessness, as he sees it, of the Bush-Cheney doctrine of inherent, and inherently illimitable, presidential powers.

Even though Gravel is too old for me, his ideas are the youngest.

"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now."

dog soldier
Sun, 08/05/07
1:32 pm
___________________________________________________________________________

I concur dog.................I say, after this last administration and its shoot em up antics, we try a differant approach.............I think many are just plain scared that peace might work..........its worth a try....................this curent philosophy will not work............................

...and Eleanor Clift

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20111201/sit...

Web Exclusive
By Eleanor Clift
Newsweek
Updated: 3:26 p.m. ET Aug 3, 2007
Aug. 3, 2007 - Remember President Bush's summer from hell? Gold Star mother Cindy Sheehan had camped out in Crawford, Texas, igniting the nascent antiwar movement. Two years later, as Congress heads off on its August recess, antiwar activists are waging their Iraq Summer campaign. The idea: to bird-dog 40 lawmakers, all Republicans, much the way Sheehan did Bush.

61,
In away that statement fits Gravel. I am sure he sees the whole Iraq discussion and the use of force as a perverse instant replay. It must really gall him to see how this will play out and how the Dem leaders-of-the-pack are blind to what will eventually happen.

...and an Obama worshipper (a General)

Hero-Worshipping Obama
The candidate’s new Swahili-speaking military adviser, Gen. Scott Gration, sees him as America’s Mandela. The general also has some strong views of his own: ‘I believe if you could get rid of all the nuclear weapons this would be a wonderful world,’ he says.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20096479/sit...

I wonder if the Dem president in 2009 will stand on the inaugural platform and denounce the lawlessness and usurpations of Bush/Cheney --  or take them upon her/himself?

60. Christ Dodd s/b Chris Dodd - apologies for the typo.

66,
I would like the next President, as part of the inaugural speech, turn the entire Bush cabal over to the Haig to be tried as War Criminals.

I think it takes a lot of gall to go to someone's door in order to sell them something.

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

you go to their door to ask them how politics could work for them, and who they thought would work for them 

Okay, you've made my decision much easier than I thought it would be.

It'll hurt less with Hillary Tom, but either way, you're screwed!

I would like the next President, as part of the inaugural speech, turn the entire Bush cabal over to the Haig to be tried as War Criminals.

Of course we would all like to see the Bush Regime held accountable and it's dangerous precedents denounced and undone. But I can see only a couple of the Democratic hopefuls doing it. 

It'll hurt less with Hillary Tom, but either way, you're screwed!

Some people like it. 

66.

Sitka
Sun, 08/05/07
1:40 pm

I wonder if the Dem president in 2009 will stand on the inaugural platform and denounce the lawlessness and usurpations of Bush/Cheney -- or take them upon her/himself?
---------

She/he can't do it otherwise than by taking "them upon her/himself"..., 'cause she/he IS THE PART of that "lawlessness and usurpations".

you go to their door to ask them how politics could work for them, and who they thought would work for them

I guess shut-ins might appreciate the company. But it's people like that who make me want to put out a welcome mat that says "Go Away." 

73.

former
Sun, 08/05/07
1:47 pm
--------

Btw, I think, that Gore's REALIZATION of that fact is the major reason why he won't run.

I think it takes a lot of gall to go to someone's door in order to sell them something.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

the alternative is bundled money driven TV ads

you go to their door to ask them how politics could work for them, and who they thought would work for them

And you just happen to have the answer to sell them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5wxwzJJQJw

former did you watch this?

canvassing is never selling, it is gathering

a campaign  that combines those functions is making a mistake

78.

Phil Specht
Sun, 08/05/07
1:55 pm
-----------
Nice WORDS..., I like those WORDS!

Where was HE all these years?
Check his record and tell me HOW MANY TIMES HE VOTED "yes" TO FUND this war and all other legislations he's trashing now?

DEEDS NOT WORDS must be the criteria..., and he has none, the same as others have...(except, again Kucinich and Gravel).
Just sad facts.

68.

dog soldier
Sun, 08/05/07
1:43 pm

66,
I would like the next President, as part of the inaugural speech, turn the entire Bush cabal over to the Haig to be tried as War Criminals.
--------
I ditto it..., but it's a wishful thinking on our part.

canvassing is never selling, it is gathering

As one gathers sheep. No thanks. 

I'm not so sure DCDems were as afraid of Bush as they were jealous that the Iraqi parliament was already on vacation and they weren't.

around here, my GOTV experience has been more about voting in general than candidates or issues. yes we drop lit, answer questions about the candidate/issue if asked, and clearly represent the candidate by wearing a button, t-shirt, etc. mostly, though, we simply ask them to vote, make sure they know where the polling place is, ask if they need a ride, and gather info on things like if they've voted absentee, etc.

in fact, when i went to phoenix for election protection in nov 04, we spent the several days prior to the election knocking doors in primarily working class neighborhoods to do exactly what i've described above.

i think the process is worthy. most people appear to be happy that this happens.

How much good did canvassing do Dean in IA? He went from first place to third. Nobody who doesn't have a serious case of lonliness wants to stand in the door and talk about someone else's favorite party or candidate.

phil, how did the turnout in the 03 caucuses compare with other years, and did the dean campaign affect this either positive or negative?

I was one of the suckers who took Trippi up on writing letters to Iowa, even though I wasn't really comfortable with the idea. Probably wrote 50 or more.

Turns out they were as big a turnoff as the Orange hats!

87. I have to say that canvassers turn me off. They get about as far with me as Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormon Missionaries.

Turns out they were as big a turnoff as the Orange hats!

I was certian no one wanted ME writing any letters.

I have to say that canvassers turn me off. They get about as far with me as Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormon Missionaries. 

Or telemarketers.

In recent years politicians have been calling to poll me on various issues. I never participate because all they want to do is tailor their propaganda to what most say they want to hear. 

The letters were a good idea.

FROM TODAY'S FRANK RICH PIECE IN NYT

Washington never drank the Nixon Kool-Aid. It kept a skeptical bipartisan eye on Tricky Dick throughout his political career, long before the Watergate complex had even been built. The charmed Mr. Bush, by contrast, got a free pass; both Democrats and Republicans in Congress and both liberals and conservatives in the news media were credulous enablers of the Iraq fiasco. Now a reckoning awaits, and the denouement is getting ugly.

The ranks of unreconstructed Iraq hawks are thinner than they used to be. Some politicians in both parties (John Edwards, Chris Dodd, Gordon Smith) and truculent pundits (Peter Beinart, Andrew Sullivan) who cheered on the war recanted (sooner in some cases than others), learned from their errors and moved on. One particularly eloquent mea culpa can be found in today’s New York Times Magazine, where the former war supporter Michael Ignatieff acknowledges that those who “truly showed good judgment on Iraq” might have had no more information than those who got it wrong, but did not make the mistake of confusing “wishes for reality.”

But those who remain dug in are having none of that. Some of them are busily lashing out Korff-style. Some are melting down. Some are rewriting history. Most seem more interested in saving their own reputations than the American troops they ritualistically invoke to bludgeon the wars’ critics and to parade their own self-congratulatory patriotism.

The letters were a good idea.

I thought so at the time--put a lot of time and postage into them; but in the post-mortem of the IA fiasco, both the letters and the orange hats came under heavy criticism.

What I mean about GOTV is that the names on those lists came from somewhere, and the process of gathering the information whether someone is for you or against you has to be candidate neutral a year and a half before the election. So you ask about issues and the general tone of politics and form an opinion that is assigned a number and that will be flawed if combined with a sales job, so my comment about Republican voters is an opinion formed from my talking with them, because the names you take off GOTV lists are as important as the ones you add.

I heard no critcism about the letters, ever.

88.

Huron John
Sun, 08/05/07
2:26 pm


I was one of the suckers who took Trippi up on writing letters to Iowa, even though I wasn't really comfortable with the idea.
--------

Looks like you, John has compromised with yourself that time around.

NEVER a good idea!

Many of us already learned it, even more continue to!

The orange hats would have worked in Wisconsin.

September 18, 2006
How Democrats Lose on GOTV

http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2006/0...

72.

mprov
Fri, 08/03/07
10:59 pm

Reply to this
no party=no movement=money rules!!!
------------

no party = movement without Party = movement with, say, Internet = people’s movement = people’s rules!!!

72 hours to victory Maybe not
By Mark Mellman
November 01, 2006

A campaign claiming it was going to “win on turnout” used to be regarded as a certain loser. Suddenly, it’s not a joke anymore. Republican operatives are claiming their 72-hour program can hold back this year’s wave.

Of course, turnout can be vital in very close races, and since we always run like we are narrowly behind, campaigns properly focus on GOTV. But can turnout stem the tide in most of this year’s races? That’s precisely the argument being made by many Republicans and regurgitated by some commentators. In fact, few of this year’s races will be decided by 72-hour programs.

http://thehill.com/mark-mellman/72-hours...

Phil, we had lousy lists in Iowa.  They were old and they were wrong much of the time.

   I have had a career in sales and taught many new salespeople the art of the face to face cold call.  I'm good at it.  BUT, very few of the Iowans we approaced were happy to see us.  Plus they had just had visits from the Kerry, Edwards Gephardt, etc. teams.  As we got closer to the caucuses, people had had it up to here with political campaigns.  There was much hiding behind the lace curtains.

 One elderly gentleman was very cordial.  He was happy to support Howard Dean,  you know, "the guy with the wooden leg," he insisted.  He thought Dean was a republican military vet.  An unusual call to be sure, but probably as helpful as most of the others.

Having said that, would I do it again?  I would do it for Howard Dean.

At least the orange hats were warm!  It was sooo cold in Des Moines!

Unfortunately I look like a mushroom in a knit cap.

103.

donna in evanston
Sun, 08/05/07
2:53 pm


At least the orange hats were warm! It was sooo cold in Des Moines!

Unfortunately I look like a mushroom in a knit cap.
----------
...lol, yeah the thing is, it would be probably better if all those warm hats were different in both colors and styles.

Phil Specht
Sun, 08/05/07
2:43 pm

I heard no critcism about the letters, ever.  

There was plenty on c-span--also on this blog as I recall

101. former, a party is nothing more than an infrastructure built to elect candidates for a group with common interests. if you want to call/make the internet the "new party," well, fine, but how is it going to be organized?

the problem i find with the magical "people" response, is the "how" will it happen? what you propose seems random to me. how can each voice calling out for the thing they specifically want achieve the goal? one could argue that at a small population local level this may work. many call for exactly that in a modern world. i think this is the wrong way to go because i believe that more connections, not less, between all individuals and groups is a better way to go.

???

think through those "lousy lists" and when you got them

they would have made good lists in August

but on the day before the caucus Dean had more ones than Edwards and came in third because of organization around attracting non viable second choices during the IRV re-alignment

Edwards made that a strategic emphasis and Dean didn't do it right.

neither guessed how successful Kerry would be attracting veterans

Hi Folks,

We went to Des Moines also. Annilow, I wonder if we were there at the same time.  

I don't like going to people's doors or calling them either, but it was worth it for Howard Dean, the principles he articulated and modeled, and the effort to reach people.  I treaure our orange hats and pins and the experience, and I, too, would do it all over again, though we also nearly froze to death.  My husband came down with the flu for six weeks after the experience.

Unfortunately, it was the wrong strategy for Iowa.  One disabled man came to the door and said that his phone had been ringing for days, and he had six visitors a day to his door.  He was furious.  Some slammed the door in my face; one man argued against a woman's right to an abortion, and we saw hordes of Edwards supporters, some for Gebhart, and some for Kucinich.

In a caucus system, insiders comprise the decision makers, and the governor and his wife (who was a big Kerry supporter) especially, and the DLC utilized the caucus system for Kerry.  My perception was that Iowans exemplified the heartland, which is basically cautious and conservative, not particularly astute when it comes to politics, and more local than anything.  

But, we're still here.  Howard Dean is the Chair of the National Committee, we have a small majority in the House and a hair's breath majority in the Senate, bloggers are recognized as a national force, and the fifty state strategy is working.

Of course, we have a long way to go, and yes, I, too am disgusted with Congressional Democrats.  They mostly don't get it.  

However, our Colorado legislature is doing some very good things. 

I also wrote letters, and I thought that was a really outstanding strategy, but, if it's something that repels you, you shouldn't do it.

In order to pay for college, I once took a job phoning to sell magazines.  I quit after a week, earned a total of $14.00 and hated every minute of it.  Yet, I'll still call for candidates I believe in, and bless 'em, the American public is mostly polite still. 

I couldn't go to Iowa, so I wrote when ever I could.

I received one post card back from a woman (I remember her name, but I won't disclose it) :) Who thanked me for my letter and said "the reasons you stated are exactly why I'm voting for Howard Dean". I kept that post card on my refridgerator next to the picture of Howard, Judy and Martin Sheen they mailed out to supporters, until I moved. I then packed that postcard in my Howard Dean box were it remains. The picture is still on my fridge.

i also wrote letters and went to des moines for the caucuses.

And WE'RE STILL HERE!  Outstanding!

Hey all, did you hear Markos' Key note?

In the beginning, where he acknowledges members of the community and loss.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/8...

I'm crying.

sorry, seeing Markos cry like that, brings me down to easy.
Also, must admit, wrong, Jay C, but still touching and Steve Gilliard.

The letters were a good idea

It was just the result that wasn't good. 

How Democrats Lose on GOTV

Campaigning and governing on the Democratic Party's own principles as espoused in its platform will get more Democrats elected than canvassing and GOTV ever will since they say nothing but, "vote for us."

104.

mprov
Sun, 08/05/07
2:56 pm


a party is nothing more than an infrastructure built to elect candidates for a group with common interests.
--------------
THE point!!!
Agree, it is an “infrastructure built” TO SUPPORT, (e.g. TO DEFEND and EXPAND) group members (e.g some people's) “common interests”! Interests are at the core of Party’s goals.



if you want to call/make the internet the "new party," well, fine, but how is it going to be organized?
---------------
I would say Internet is ALREADY organized. It maybe organized in somewhat loose way but it is organized nevertheless. The very fact of every one of us almost daily presence here proves that Internet can (and has!) became a reliable organizational as well as educational tool (that’s what Party’s major functions largely are. Isn’t it?).

If you recall functioning of Internet polls and how they can provide voting OF MILLUIONS of people (not just hundreds senators or representatives) with almost immediate(!) result, which REFLECT People's TRUE and DIRECT opinions and wishes on the issue (not through their representatives!) then HOW IT IS NOT BETTER than vote in House or Senate with regarding implementation of REAL democracy?



the problem i find with the magical "people" response, is the "how" will it happen? what you propose seems random to me. how can each voice calling out for the thing they specifically want achieve the goal?
------------------------
Of course it sounds “magical”. It was NEVER done before and nobody, probably, knows for sure HOW exactly it will happen. I’m just describing what I see as already existing seeds of that.




one could argue that at a small population local level this may work. many call for exactly that in a modern world. i think this is the wrong way to go because i believe that more connections, not less, between all individuals and groups is a better way to go.
???
------------------------------
!!!
That’s what I think too! It’ll eventually start from “small population local level” EXPANDING UPWARD and WIDEWARDS to the level with (and I’m absolutely agreed with you on that!) “more connections, not less, between all individuals and groups”!

Hey everyone!

Just a minute here, i'm waiting on a call from our county chair to see if he'll go to our Town Hall meeting of Rep. Nathan Deal (R- GA's 9th). I'll be nice and just say he(the rethug) has been wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong.

I wrote many a letter(post card if i remember) into Iowa, and thought it was a better idea than making someone come to the door in a blizzard. LOL

... was in on calling into some states, i'll check that, one especially had nearly all R's when trying to get D's for Dean. Verrrrry frusterating.

... i did wear an orange knit cap to almost everything here tho. LOL

speaking of rethugs, Mitt Romney seems to fit right in here with the Obama bashing:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20070805/pl_bloomberg/apm9eo74zkeg_1

Romney, Republicans Attack Obama's Foreign Policy

Kristin Jensen Sun Aug 5, 1:57 PM ET

Aug. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Mitt Romney, John McCain and other Republican presidential candidates took aim at foreign-policy comments made by Democratic hopeful Barack Obama, saying anyone running for the White House should steer clear of discussing specific military plans.

``He's gone from Jane Fonda to Dr. Strangelove in one week,'' Romney, a former governor of Massachusetts, said today during a Republican debate in Des Moines, Iowa. McCain, an Arizona senator, called remarks such as those Obama made in a July 23 Democratic debate and an Aug. 1 speech ``naive.''

Obama, an Illinois senator, said at the Democratic debate he would be willing to meet with dictators and foes of the U.S. without preconditions. In the later speech, he said he would use military force against terrorist training camps in Pakistan if the country's president, Pervez Musharraf, failed to do so.

Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton responded that the U.S. needs a change from policies that have ``turned a blind eye'' to threats in countries such as Pakistan while undertaking a war in Iraq. ``Mitt Romney should tell us why he believes we should keep 160,000 American troops in the middle of someone else's civil war but not take out Osama bin Laden if we had him in our sights,'' Burton said.

...

Romney defended President George W. Bush's treatment of the job. ``It's been very popular lately for people across the country to be critical of the president and vice president,'' Romney said. ``But they have kept us safe these last six years. Let's not forget that.''

119.

Thank for all the thoughtful brief analysis, instead of just cutting and pasteing in a near spam fashion.

If i hadn't watched the R debates, i might read this, but i've not commented on it at all so as not to give them any oxygen.

If i did comment on the r's it would be on the excellent comments of Ron Paul - but better than that, his record on voting. One that is better than Obama, Clinton, Biden, Edwards, and many other Ds on the 'things that matter'!!

P.S. Ron Paul '08 yard signs going up around here.
He's gonna get the jump on Fred Thompson here(and i might help)

ROFLMAO

121.

Deaniac in GA
Sun, 08/05/07
4:55 pm


If i did comment on the r's it would be on the excellent comments of Ron Paul - but better than that, his record on voting. One that is better than Obama, Clinton, Biden, Edwards, and many other Ds on the 'things that matter'!!
-------------

If Demos continue to ignore Gravel and Kucinich, but Ron Paul is Reps nominee I'm seriously considering to voet for him in 2008.

to voet = to vote

What i like about his statements is he is not ignorant of the dire danger he is in, like Paul Wellstone i contend. His voice quivers just so slightly at first, but one look at the audience, and i think he knows he's the only chance they(the folk before him) have from the R side, he snaps into a strong man, like a Clarke Kent conversion.

Maybe a bit over romanced, but think about it, this guy is in the lion's den - but makes them look like dodos (or is it doodoos)

BBL

Love ya'll, mean it!!

I received one hand written 2 page letter from an Iowan. He was voting for Dean, and he poured his heart out and his frustrations. I saved the letter, in fact I recently thought of writing him to see what his thoughts are today.

Before anyone even thinks about voting for Ron Paul because of his stance on the war, remember he is one of those who will reduce gov't. to bathtub size and pull the plug.

There are many people who depend on SS. Their futures would be desperate

128.

audrey.nc
Sun, 08/05/07
5:22 pm


Before anyone even thinks about voting for Ron Paul because of his stance on the war, remember he is one of those who will reduce gov't. to bathtub size and pull the plug.

There are many people who depend on SS. Their futures would be desperate
--------

???
Why do you equate eliminating government with eliminating of SS?
SS may get even better without the Government!

SS is one of the gov't programs to go.

Can't understand how you can ask that question.

But, please research.

New thread.

First is still up for grabs. 

I heard Ron Paul say on Stewart that he would do away with SS and Medicare.

We need 3 presidents.  One mental case or war-monger will not save our country.

Paul could be our foreign  policy prez.  Edwards could handle the 2 America poverty problems.  Who would handle the budget the best?

But this isn't going to happen, so we had better elect Al Gore. 

I also wrote letters to Iowa and I agree with Pat.  Iowans, salt of the earth types, are (and I'm generalizing) politcally naive, exemplified by Phil's comment that women are flocking to get Hillary stickers.  My sense is that it's a backlash against the authoritarianism of both their upbringing and their equally authoritarianism of Luthernism (or other isms) (I was raised Missouri synod Lutheran..thank goodness I saw thru the hype when I was 8 years old) 

If it's true that insiders and political shenanigans choose the front runners in the caucus there, we are destined for democrats who don't represent the rest of the  population and who are not progressives.  Or those who are *chosen* to lose the way Kerry was.  The women flocking to Hillary bought the kool-aid and obviously do very little to inform themselves about a particular candidate.  They like her becuz she's a woman, not becuz they think she's the best person for the job.  It's a form  of sexism. IMO

The primary system is a mess. 

"It's enough to make people think about a constitutional amendment for removing a president other than by impeachment or because of incapacity, as is now provided for under the 25th Amendment."

P&P are violating Constitutional Law and have blown off their loyalty oaths.  Isn't that grounds for impeachement?  Isn't that treason?

******************************************** 

"Many people now believe that the Bush administration and the Federal Reserve are intentionally creating an "Argentina-type meltdown" so they can privatize state owned assets and usher in the North American Union--the future "one state" alliance of Canada, Mexico and US--along with the new regional currency, the Amero."

The incompetence theme went out long ago.  These people are cold, calculating and deliberate in their determinate to rule the world and destory our system of government.   We are going the way of Argentina and I've seen first hand what it's like there.  The weathy are moving into gated communities outside the city and safety in the city is gone.  Thieves jump into taxis and grab purses...taxi drivers lock doors when going thru large sections of the city.   Professors are driving cabs, theft is up....We're there, aren't we?  We've become a third world country or well on our way.

 Come on, everybody.  So far only Judy has said it.  Fascism is here.