first is the American worker - both high and low tech - and the Mexicans who struggle to survive

SPENCER MICHELS: The H-1B debate is playing out in Congress right now as an important element in the broader immigration discussions. President Bush recently called on Congress to raise the cap. Republican Senator John Cornyn has been leading efforts in the Senate to get more H-1B visas....

JIM LEHRER: The Senate deal on immigration reached today would raise the cap on H-1B visas to 115,000, which is nearly double the current number allowed, and it would open the door to future increases.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/social_issues/jan-june07/hthelp_05-17.html 

=========================

This is an attempt for American companies to "brain drain" the geniuses from all over the world, using the American life-style and amenities as a carrot on a stick.   It saves both training costs and they work cheap too.

The downside is that we borrow megabucks to get a college degree and then cannot find a job to pay it back. -- Also, we steal the brain-power from poor countries, and allow some of them to steal our technical innovations if they return to their country of origin with knowledge accumulated here.

It is a lose-lose situation for American Engineering graduates, American professional workers, and for American high-tech in the long run.

Dean is first. 

Fred, you know that. 

Shiite politician to U.S. for checkup 42 minutes ago

BAGHDAD - The leader of Iraq's largest Shiite political party has left for the United States for medical checkups, an official at his office said Friday.

-----

This is interesting. President Talabani went to neighboring Jordan when he was sick. However, Hakim requires use of the American heathcare system. Have the Kurds fallen out of US favor? Then, you have director Michael Moore having to evacuate firefighters (American Heroes) from Ground Zero to receive healthcare in Cuba. Definitely interesting.

Dean is first.   Fred, you know that.

=============

I don't mean to be blasphemous, but just individual and creative

and the mexican workers that are legal or illegal are being exploited by the corporrations that hire them. now by the politicians.

a fence? yea right that will keep them out.

Fred.

Unbelievable. Amazing, it was bad enough that the newly formed Computer Lobbying firm that hired Cheneys Chief of staff to head it up a couple years ago, made up of 10 of our countries top 10 computer companies have been lobbying to increase the visas, to finish driving down the salaries here. We have some of the most intelligent people that were being forced to take cuts in pay by 30 percent when the dot com bust occured and number of jobs decreased, engineers, etc.

And our elected officials are joining in driving down our jobs and salaries this way. Last year there were 50,000 jobs that they would not post, because then they would have to first offer them to US employees. They waited to get the increase in Visas. Latest poll showed people are having more difficulty now in filling jobs, because the cost of living and housing has increased so much that they need more money....so what's the answer? THIS. Nice, very nice.

For the jobs they can't ship overseas, they work on driving down the salaries, and our costs of living are shooting up the highest amount in decades, with housing at unaffordable.

The divide further growing...rich...to poor.

And I've spoken out plenty, written and called our reps as even the computer industry has spoken out and written many articles on. They are ignoring the realities for their business interests and helping destroy this country in the process.

I like the responses I've received. "we'll keep an eye on this so they don't abuse the system". Oh, Yeah, you're doing a great job.(sic)

Kucinich sure looks happy in his screen captures.

Thenk you Congressman Kucinich for clearly being consistent on your opposition to the Iraq war and occupation.

How exciting. Publix going green!!!

Boca-area residents upset as Publix closes for 6 months to become organic market

By Paola Iuspa-Abbott
South Florida Sun-Sentinel
Posted May 18 2007
Folks in the sprawling community of Via Verde in western Boca Raton are having a hard time coping with the imminent loss of their neighborhood supermarket.

"Everybody is going to miss Publix," resident Angela Sullivan said, lamenting that the store on St. Andrews Boulevard, where she shops several times a week, is set to close Saturday night.


LocalLinks


"We are all disappointed, kind of heartbroken," she said. "My family and friends come from everywhere to shop at this store."

To some residents, life won't be the same after Saturday at 9 p.m.

"It was the best thing that happened to me when I moved here 16 years ago," Una Kohlman said about having the store so close to her home. "Everybody I talk to says losing Publix would be the worst thing ever."

Publix plans to close the store for six months to transform it into a natural and organic food market. It is not clear if traditional products would also be sold there, Publix spokeswoman Anne Hendricks said.

The new store will be named Publix GreenWise Market. Products will be minimally processed and have fewer, if any, artificial ingredients and preservatives. They will also be grown through methods designed to protect the environment and farm workers.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/s...

Good for Dennis K. Better late than never on Iraq.  Linking energy to a national effort and to his peace proposals is great. Works Green Adminstration. Good idea.  Would have like to hear other ideas as well. Cap and trade. Meeting targeted reductions - how?

Glad Kucinich is in the race. Democrats have a great selection this year and a range of people with much experience and conviction.

Now the Dems in Congress need to step up and stop COMPROMISING with Bushco. on Iraq, secret trade deals, on immigration. Sheesh, I'm beginning to wonder who actually won the majority in 2006?

The immigration deal is a dog of a bill. It will cost hundreds of billions of dollars, split up families, produce a bunch of second-class workers without protections, and create more problems than it solves. Kennedy is behind this dog?

Wow, again, you gotta wonder with the recent secret trade deal and this one, whether Democrats have lost their minds?

Fascism=America


AL, PLEAASE RUN=Assault on democracy should have been the title.

Al Gore
2008

Indy, Senator Kennedy and Senator Boxer have been behind these H1B Visas as well. So disappointing that they are selling out the workers and citizens this way.

Corporate Interests are completely taking over. We will have Communism before long.

 It will cost hundreds of billions of dollars,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

how so?

Linda*in*SFNM
Fri, 05/18/07
12:10 pm

As good as a crop we have on the Democratic side, I wouldn't mind just one more. ;-)

Run, Al, run.

Gotta go before I further stress out over our fascist run government.

Al Gore is right, it takes courage to stand up to these Corporate interests and apparently that is one thing that is lacking.

Over time, fences on the border, expensive high-tech systems, massive numbers of people to guard 2000 miles, more jails to house deportations, an expanded bureaucracy to administer this torturous system....need I add more.

I will defer to CBO estimates or some other professional agencies, but the cost will be in the hundreds of billions.

Linda*in*SFNM
Fri, 05/18/07
12:15 pm

YES! And our own Democrats are now piling on to slurp up the power gravy. Read this and weep. Rangel and Baucus have formed a PAC to cash in on their support for the secret trade deals and their power position on Finance, etc. And lobbying reform now is on the ropes.....Makes me sick to my stomach.

House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles Rangel (D-N.Y.) and Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus (D-Mont.) have set up a joint fundraising committee to collect political contributions they are receiving from lobbyists hoping to win the lawmakers’ favor.

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/baucus-rangel-form-pac-2007-04-16.html

I think it important to take immigration out of the next cycle debate to keep the right wing of the Republican Party from growing on populist trade issues that have little to do with this problem directly but can be demagogued into a divisive issue as a smoke sceen.

This might be the best that can get 60 votes. Needs a little tweaking around the family issue maybe.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
12:20 pm

Phil, have you researched the Bill? 

That's a joke. This Bill undermines labor. It will fail in the House. It is a classic case of trying to split the difference and making a camel out of a horse. Bush doesn't have the strength to push this through. It needs a lot more tweaking than the family issues. We'll probably end up with an ostrich. DOA.

Some of the best things about Rep Dennis Kucinich is that he doesn't give up or change his views according to which way the wind blows. This guy is tops in my book. Just wish he has more mainstream support.

Indy Steve

     You right about the fence on the boarder.  I watch a demostration where they built a 15 foot section of the same wall that is built in San Diego.  Took the 15 hours to build a 15 foot section.  6 seperate groups of aliens from the south found ways around, over and through the walls.  The most it took was 3 minutes. 

      7 billion and it will actuall make it easier for them to cross. 

It would be a big mistake for Democrats to kill an immigration bill.

Joan* In*Florida

         I volunteered for Denis before Dean.  What ever his views, he is a mean and arogant person.  He treats those working and volunterring for him like crap.

 That gets an F.  in my book. 

Your right Phil, but I would like that bill to go after the true source which is emloyers willing to break the laws of the land to make a profit.  I would also like to see our trade policy with South America and Mexico reflect our values of fair compensations for hard work.  In other words Free trade only where labor markets are free to organize, unionize and were workers have rights and are fairly compensated.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
12:26 pm

That depends if you really want to deal with the problem in a serious way, or whether you just want to politically remove it from the field. I'm for a problem-solving party, Phil. Which do you want?

19.

Baucus must go. He pushed the Part  D plan as hard as he could to get it passed. Bad bill and he knew it. Dems can never trust this guy.

Unfortunately, Rangel is so firmly in place in his state I doubt he will never be voted out, regardless of what he does.

There was a very informative gal on C-span earlier this morning talking about lobbying and campaign financing. Great insight and information from her.

I'm not pro fence. I do believe a border matters.

My vision of America is one of a inclusive, diverse, welcoming country that harnesses the energy of upward mobility to pay for such things as social security through a larger national payroll where taxes are collected from everyone.

25.

tea,

That is a surprise to me. Thanks for that insight. Arrogance is not a quality that will get you elected as POTUS. Nevertheless, he is relentless in his positions and that I do like.

BTW, Phil. Even Reid has reservations about this Bill.  Now, of course, it has a long way to go. Who knows what the sausage-maker will do to it. But as it stands now. It's DOA.

It could be made worse for sure. But it is not GOOD by any means. I'm coming to the conclusion that this Congress will get nothing done. And that might not be such a bad thing with Bushco. and the far right rethugs in the bargaining mix.

Fold. Wait until 2009.

HERE IS A MORE READABLE VERSION OF THE POST IN PLAIN TEXT

8.

Linda*in*SFNM
Fri, 05/18/07
12:00 pm


15.

Linda*in*SFNM
Fri, 05/18/07
12:13 pm

Indy, Senator Kennedy and Senator Boxer have been behind these H1B Visas as well.


12.

Indy Steve

=====================

Ten years ago, After borrowing $42,000 to get a computer science degree, I could not find an even low-tech computer job because importing geniuses had a ripple-effort all the way down the job-chain. There were too many experienced people looking for jobs.

I was told by many foreign interviewers that I was "not qualified." At the same time there were "predictions" of a 250,000 high tech worker "shortage" a few years ahead. THIS WAS A FABRICATED CRISIS intended to push for importing more cherry-picked geniuses from around the world.

We saw something like this in the late 1990s, when Congress cutback on subsidies to physician training hospitals, by paying them NOT to increase their residents for training. 3/4 of all training hospitals get $100,000 per year per resident from the Medicare program.

The largest contributor to Congress in the preceeding decade was the AMA. They were a bigger spender on lobbying than Enron who had been the second biggest contributor to lobbyist for that decade.

For years previous to the "training cutback" legislation AMA was festering propaganda to the press and lobbies of an impending "DOCTOR GLUT"

God help us for having too many doctors with no sick people to care for. Health care costs have been increasing at double-digit rates since then. It's all supply and demand.

There is a need to bring our guests out of the shadows so they can't be exploited and have the chance to organize not just back home but here as well. And an anti-hispanic Democratic Party will lose the next election.

I'm all for trade as long as it is fair trade with a level playing field for environmental and labor laws.

The currency manipulation by China has cost many more jobs than those taken by out of status workers.

25.

teatimetim NE Ohio

Only recently did he change his image 5.0 to the more peaceful tone. LOL

Even at the DNC Winter meeting and the Media Conference in TN he was still angry and snippy. He managed to keep the same tone on his Real Time appearance and ended up doing a great job.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
12:31 pm

Admirable goals. And this bill won't fulfill them.

It forces heads of households to go back to their countries and reapply for admission. Many of their children, however, are US citizens. It creates a very complicated system for monitoring and jailing them. It costs taxpayers billions every year for a fence on the border and high tech monitoring. And it creates a group of second class workers without protections which will undermine labor.

What's to like?

Any work done in a cubicle can be done in India or worse in China where the intellectual property is simply stolen.

The 50,000 jobs at issue should be here, there does need to be some recognition for "equal pay".

teatimetim NE Ohio
Fri, 05/18/07
12:28 pm

I've heard similar complaints about Ralph Nader from people who worked directly with him.

23.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
12:26 pm

Reply to this
It would be a big mistake for Democrats to kill an immigration bill.

=================

Phil tell what group of common Americans would be in favor of importing geniuses taking our high-tech jobs, while abandoning those geniuses' own countries needs for brain power?

It is totally elitist in every way.

The H-1B increase would be very easy to kill. Nobody on left or right would gain by defending it. But they would all support it for the big bucks, in the dark of night.

Only the high-tech oligarchy would defend it.

31.

FRED from OR

I just told my hubby they latest...He said "that's about right. People are tired of getting shafted not getting jobs in High Tech or making a decent wage, they are stopping from taking the training now because they wised up, so now they will have to start bringing them in" LOL.

How in the heck can they re work NAFTA CAFTA and the complete SHAFTYA with workers and environmental rights built in, when they aren't able to stop from removing workers rights in our own country?

Phil...have you checked your DFALink mail?

What's to like?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It creates 10 million new Democratic voters a decade from now because it does leave a path to citizenship. I'm amazed the Republicans went along.

need to go do some things,
will check back.

bbl

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
12:40 pm

Except for those who clean our houses, make our beds, do our landscaping and labor in our fields. For those, we'll let them in, provide few protections, won't let labor organize them here, and exploit the heck out of 'em.  Are you for that?

Andy Stern and SEIU opposes this program.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
12:43 pm

Phil, READ THE BILL! It creates a "path to citizenship" that looks like the road to hell. That's how they got Conservative support because they understand how meaningless it is.

No way is it acceptable to immigrant groups. What happens to the Hispanic vote when they are against it.

15.

Linda NM

I understood from what I saw yesterday that Kennedy is NOT onboard for this immigration bill as it stands now. Maybe I heard wrong.

No matter how it is solved we will always have immigrants, legal and illegal, working in the US. We already have laws mandating that employers cannot hire illegals from anywhere unless documented.

I do not buy into Lou  Dobbs' hateful racist depiction of Illegal "aliens" stealing American job, bringing down wages. If we had a decent minimum wage here, their presence would make no different in that respect.

IMHO Dobbs reasons, as a dyed in the wool Republican (hiding under the label of a registered Independent)  for spreading hate about illegal immigrants is because he knows they will vote predominantly Democrat. He speaks as if ALL our illegals were from south of the border. He carefully avoids any mention of other illegals.

Linda*in*SFNM
Fri, 05/18/07
12:42 pm

Shaftya, LOL! And they also abandoned LAFTA cuz that was what it was.

I've heard that the secret trade deal just completed with Pelosi-Bush has a provision that the US wouldn't be subject to the requirement for labor rights!! Right to work laws, restricting labor organization, etc. Now we're gonna hold others to higher standards than ourselves!! Sheesh.

Where ARE the real Democrats?

A bill needs to pass this session. Work on it.

Joan* In*Florida
Fri, 05/18/07
12:50 pm

I agree. Dobbs is a reactionary. And I'm for human rights and labor rights for all HUMAN BEINGS.  It is a false argument that hard-working people (whether legal or not) result in diminishing incomes for all of us. Economics teaches the exact opposite.

Linda I check my DFA messages once a week, thanks for the thought, I'll get back to you.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
12:57 pm

NO. Won't do it just to protect Democrats from some supposed threat.

Working backwards from a fatally compromised Bill won't result in anything progressive. Just like on Iraq, this process is flawed. Democrats have been showing themselves to be terrible negotiators on our behalf.

How many times do I have to say it? You don't start with the compromise and then work backward to something stronger!!

48.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
12:57 pm

Reply to this
A bill needs to pass this session. Work on it.

==================

If that means killing more job prospects for American high-tech worker, and brain-draining poor countries of their human resources...

then I say no bill is better than a bad bill, and we [Democrats] can tell the American people about the snafu that killed it.

46.

Joan* In*Florida

I think there may be a misunderstanding. This morning I even heard him say this was the best he's seen yet. And I specifically remember their past support in increases even on the H1B Visas issue alone.

You know, they get rid of manufacturing, there are only so many other areas to target. The manufacturing jobs go first, then programming jobs go next, then you have designers and engineers for the actual designing. They need them here. Then you have the Scientist moving overseas. What will be left?

Kennedy is from MA. Lots of high tech companies there who want access to cheaper labor from abroad.  I'm not saying he's bought or anything. But it's like the Washington State and California Senators. They want those high-tech H1B's.

Linda*in*SFNM
Fri, 05/18/07
1:03 pm

Variaton of the old saying. First they came for the laborers. But I was not a laborer so I did not resist. Then they came for the manufacturing workers, but I was not one so I did not resist. By the time they came for me, there was noone left to resist.

Now financial services, accounting, engineering and design are the next to move overseas. They can be done by Internet much cheaper. Who will be left?

the contribution is greatly diminished if they are part of an underground cash economy without any rights and can't even get a drivers license or insurance or into the social security system

A bill is needed this session to keep the reThugs from ginning up the hate and division.

54.

Indy Steve

Kennedy is from MA. Lots of high tech companies there who want access to cheaper labor from abroad.

===========

Its local pork, at the expense of the nation. I wonder what all the graduates from all those Universities in MA think about what this will do to their job prospects. I hope they flood him with emails.

56.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
1:08 pm

...A bill is needed this session to keep the reThugs from ginning up the hate and division.

=========

so that end justifies any means?

reminds me of the old joke, that the less Congress does, the better off we are.

55.

Indy Steve
Fri, 05/18/07
1:07 pm


Variaton of the old saying. First they came for the laborers. But I was not a laborer so I did not resist.....By the time they came for me, there was noone left to resist.
----

Absolutely correct, imo!
That's the whole point of the WAR against working class (against middle class now).

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
1:08 pm

I agree with your comment on bringing them from the shadows. This Bill won't do that, however. I'm not sure with the kind of Congress we have now and a weak Bushco. (in this case, his weakness is a liability!) we'll get anything close to what you envision.

"Guest workers" is another word for exploited labor. Guest, my a$$. And they undermine labor. They don't contribute to social security because they'll never get it.

And few existing illegals will be able to either afford the money or the risk of the so-called "path to hell" citizenship. Phil, go do some research and tell me what you support specifically in this Bill and what you'd "settle" with. Cause this one aint it.

high-tech H1B's will take some of the jobs here or all of those jobs back home as the whole enterprise is outsourced

I'd rather they be case by case rather than industry by industry

and someone who lives here for a few years takes home an understanding of Americans.

just make the employers pay up in equal wages so it isn't leveraged to lower wages for all

sure it can be improved a little 

Indy wrote "How many times do I have to say it? You don't start with the compromise and then work backward to something stronger!!"

You've said it enough.  It was misguided the first time, and it's misguided now.  The "stronger" opening proposal you harp on makes sense during the first round negotiating arms length transactions.  For proposed legislation, the "stronger," meaning most partisan, least conciliatory measure is putting the ammo in the opposing party's campaign weapon.  For example "See how Democrats want to cut off troop funding,"  "See how Democrats want to hand over the country to illegal aliens."   Of the few lousy issues Republicans can rally around and take to their constituents, these are two of their best. 

We've seemed to generate some kind of consensus here against the grand Immigration compromise. That is SOME kind of success!

Phil, are you on board with us?

61.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
1:15 pm

.......
just make the employers pay up in equal wages so it isn't leveraged to lower wages for all
-----

...lol, Phil "make"? That's interesting!
HOW can you "make" employers pay up in equal wages?

The Democratic leadership should have put a better bill out in the first hundred hour package because this will bite us in the ass if nothing passes. Then we would be negotiating a counter-offer rather than give Bush momentum, but if the trade off is give him something to save face while we pass a supplemental to end the war it would be a win win because we really do need to deny Republicans a populist issue that can peel off labor.

Tom Bearse
Fri, 05/18/07
1:15 pm

Ha, the great compromiser arrives! I prefer NOT to repeat Conservative framing.

How about? See how the Democrats support our troops by bringing them home rather than putting them in the middle of a civil war...

See how Democrats oppose an immigration bill that erodes the working and middle class...

I'm sure others can come up with better. But I'm tired of Democrats and their supporters always arguing a defensive position. That is for wimps.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
1:19 pm

Same thing happened on the "secret" trade deal as on Iraq and Immigration. YES, Congress should back THEIR version and make Bushco and the rethugs respond to that rather than the a$$backwards way they're doing it. Glad you agree.

I would love to take Immigration off the table. But not with a compromise that violates human rights and does little to solve the problem. At a cost of hundreds of billions.

Indy wrote: "But I'm tired of Democrats and their supporters always arguing a defensive position. That is for wimps."

That's because you're a big burly guy.  The media campaign is in full swing while we're sitting here.  Go tune it in if you doubt it.

Government contracts used to have prevaling wage provisions back in the day and government contracts reach into many areas of the economy.

Tom Bearse
Fri, 05/18/07
1:24 pm

No, I prefer to DO SOMETHING about it. Which is why I met personally with my Congresscritter last week on Iraq. And attended a vigil the week before. And am writing a LTE to the paper. And am helping to try to arrange a meeting with our Senators.

That is better than listening to some media campaign. Being here is what I do to relax! ;-)

We need an immigration bill if we want to be sure of a win in the next election.

Right now "there hasn't been another attack" is their strongest card, but they could get away with letting one happen if they could blame Democrats for not supporting border security.

I see this as an opportunity that can be improved with a Democratic President and Congress in 09 which we may not get to if we give them enough ammo.

Being here is how I stretch my lunch hour, lol.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
1:32 pm

Phil, You understand how much farming relies upon immigrant labor, legal and illegal. To some extent, the "immigration" problem is a manufactured one by Conservatives. It is the new "gay marriage" issue of the 21st century.

We all benefit by hard-working people who are willing to work in the fields. The issue, in my mind, is how do we protect them in a way that also protects workers elsewhere. But to bash illegal immigration as Conservatives love to do, is just to get the Conservative passion flowing.

Indy wrote: "But I'm tired of Democrats and their supporters always arguing a defensive position. That is for wimps."

That's because you're a big burly guy.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Toms mad again that Detroit lost last night to Anaheim, and will lose the series............

61.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
1:15 pm

Reply to this

high-tech H1B's will take some of the jobs here or all of those jobs back home as the whole enterprise is outsourced

I'd rather they be case by case rather than industry by industry

and someone who lives here for a few years takes home an understanding of Americans

==================

In the long run, H1Bs will increase outsourcing as they learn all our methods and the details of our techniques.

Japan's industrial revolution took only 40 years from a medieval state, because they sent their most exceptional students around the world to learn what we knew... and as history has shown, they used this power to militarize, massacre civilians in China and take the sides with Hitler.

The Japanese people did not get a better image of us. They were brainwashed into committing suicide rather than surrender.

The fence has already started and will take decades to complete so how much can be built between now and the next election? We are talking about something that can be altered with a new Congress, but once you create a path to citizenship it would be very difficult to reverse that.

71.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
1:32 pm

Reply to this

We need an immigration bill if we want to be sure of a win in the next election.

===========

What if the press give the credit to Bush?

Fred I've got to know quite a few Japanese visitors in my line of work, they are some of the most courteous people on the planet. 

Indy wrote "No, I prefer to DO SOMETHING about it."

Go ahead.  It's irrelevant to the discussion, which I'll reiterate concerns the introduction of bills that bolster the strength of your political opponents. 

What if the press give the credit to Bush?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He will go up from 28% approval to 29%.

Mike wrote "Toms mad again that Detroit lost last night to Anaheim, and will lose the series."

Where did I hear this before?  Wait, I remember.  It was after Detroit came back 2-2 from Calgary and San Jose.

24.

Whenever construction takes a down-turn, the contractors suddenly appear to build. 

78.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
1:43 pm

Reply to this
Fred I've got to know quite a few Japanese visitors in my line of work, they are some of the most courteous people on the planet.

==================

No red-herrings please, Phil

I am not talking about Japanese and I am not talking about the present.

I am stating that history has shown that exceptional foreigners that come here to learn our technology does not necessarily result in all good things and better images of Americans. This lesson of history does not apply to present day Japan but can appply to other countries.

73.

It is the new "gay marriage" issue of the 21st century.

Yes, and it is just those hard-right people (like  Dobbs) who spread that kind of stuff. Gotta get those Repugs out to vote. The gay issue is albeit dead, the anti-choice issue will always be around but not front page news now.

We do, however, need to enforce the employer laws that are already on the books. If that isn't being done, then perhaps the Dems will suggest having an Employer/Immigrant Czar:)

And, of course, the border can always use improvement, but certainly not to the extend of the current Senate bill. We couldn't afford it in any event and like so many other things it would die on the vine before completion of a wall, unmanned aircraft, etc.

As someone wrote before, a wall would only be a boon to ladder makers and sellers. Unmanned aircraft would also be a favorite target for high-powered gun practice.

This lesson of history does not apply to present day Japan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Japan is building their cars here instead of shipping them here.

I know everyone else reads KOS too but I found these 2 diaries noteworthy:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/5/18/...
TONIGHT: Moyers PBS Special On the Secret Trade Deal
by davidsirota [Subscribe]
Fri May 18, 2007 at 07:25:27 AM PDT
(A reminder to watch Moyers tonight-subject important for sure)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/5/18/...
Doonesbury Helmet Watch
by SisTwo [Subscribe]
Fri May 18, 2007 at 03:12:11 AM PDT
I've started to pay closer attention to the imperial helmet that Garry Trudeau uses to symbolize Bush in his Doonesbury "comics." Here is a glimpse of what it looked like last week.
(I don't get a paper so don't read Doonesbury-forget how brilliant he is)

73.

Just as when it comes to ethics reform for the Congress, the legislators are reluctant to exercise self-control, our legislators are reluctant to address the problem of unequal pay and benefits at the source--the employers.  What an employer pays for labor should not be influenced in any way by the personal characteristics of the worker (female, foreign, migrant, handicapped).  The only thing that should count is whether the work is getting done as requested.  

85.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
1:53 pm

Reply to this

This lesson of history does not apply to present day Japan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Japan is building their cars here instead of shipping them here

====================

I don't know what that has to do with cherry-picking geniuses from all over the world to take our high tech job and eliminating the need for on-the-job training of Americans looking to start a career in high tech.

Tell me Phil, what's the connection?

12.
Monica Smith
Fri, 05/18/07
10:17 am
Though it hardly seems worth addressing, there's no evidence that fences and security systems keep people out.
-----------
My gun and barky dog make me feel warm and fuzzy tho :~)

Joan* In*Florida
Fri, 05/18/07
1:48 pm

I wouldn't be for enforcing the employer laws without some kind of legal process for immigrant labor. What they do is round up the illegals, take them away from their family, and do nothing to the company. It is VERY inhumane. And anti-family. That's what we need to hit hard at. How anti-family this Republican immigration bill is. It breaks up families on all sides.

Well, folks. Time to go out and DO something. Been fun as always even if we disagree. But when Fred, Former, Joan and I can agree on something, it is a success of sorts!

And so relaxing......BBL

69.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
1:28 pm

Government contracts used to have prevaling wage provisions back in the day and government contracts reach into many areas of the economy.
------------

with all positives you've mentioned about governmental contracts..., it is as well possible to mention all negatives: overspending, corruption, other abuses, etc.

Why go back in history to repeat what was already tried and failed?

How about "free association of workers" (FREE from governmental regulation) who interacts with alike associations in COOPERATIVE manner?

Indy, yes. I'm shocked at how many are accepting because it doesn't affect them, immediately. We all know it affects EVERYONE, whether plus or minus, it breaks down the system when it's tilted. And they those same folks who think it will never happen to them. Again, not caring because it's isn't affecting them immediately. Greed seems to be America's most prevelant description anymore.

Phil, I agree. Japanese are some of the most courteous. Using ones mind, not their brawn.

BTW, Fred. Science Friday on NPR is dealing with vaccinations.

Someone above alluded to this, but I've been wondering if 'immigration' is a smoke screen subject for when they can't scare us to death with Ft. Dix plots or another 'high ranking' Al Quaeda capture. Or another missing blonde. 'Immigration' certainly presses our hot buttons. I do find it interesting that the blog seems to be against H1B type immigration but for immigration of outlaws (those in the country without benefit of law). I'm not sure I understand the dichotomy. But is it all a smokescreen to keep us from debating Iraq and/or all the scandals?

cherry-picking geniuses from all over the world

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``

Fred only you could think that a bad deal, the problem is pedestrian workers at a lower wage

94.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
2:02 pm

Reply to this

cherry-picking geniuses from all over the world

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``

Fred only you could think that a bad deal, the problem is pedestrian workers at a lower wage

========================

Then that is what the bill should be about - we should not sell out our high-tech workers and college graduates to please a handfull of high-tech corporations.

Brain-draining developing countries has never been a liberal ideal either.

BREAKING NEWS: Mike Gravel confirmed for DemocracyFest.

http://www.democracyfest.net/

 Scapegoating "illegals" is a typical Republican trick to find someone to fear or hate that "isn't like us".

I find their politics of hate and division disgusting so quite possibly would accept something "good" rather than wait for something "better"; to a fault.

bbl

94.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
2:02 pm


Fred only you could think that a bad deal, the problem is pedestrian workers at a lower wage

===========================

Phil, I thought you were above personal attacks - "only you" is not only personally demeaning, if you read the posts, it is not true either.

94.

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
2:02 pm

Phil, Agriculture has always had a problem getting enough "pedestrian workers" (kind of a condescending term) at the right time as needed. Don't you agree? Our ag economy needs migrant labor. High school kids just don't pick crops any more.

BTW, they're trying to get 14 year olds here to go back to the fields. But kids these days.....sigh. I grew up picking beans. Still dream about it....LOL.

So Pelosi just told Bush to "shove it" in their Iraq negotiations?

no bill no war

the pressure will mount on Bush

97.

FRED from OR
Fri, 05/18/07
2:05 pm


Then that is what the bill should be about - we should not sell out our high-tech workers and college graduates to please a handfull of high-tech corporations.

Brain-draining developing countries has never been a liberal ideal either.
-----------

!!!
See, what Fred inetelegently (...lol, Fred) is taking about?

COOPERATION!!!

"It creates 10 million new Democratic voters a decade from now because it does leave a path to citizenship. I'm amazed the Republicans went along."

The repugs went along becuz those 10 million will be voting for repugs IMO.  That's the plan and it would be naive to think otherwise.  Or else Rove will make sure they can't vote.  Either way, this is a purely political issue with the 10 million being pawns.

It's the votes, Stupid.

I read the Palast article about how 08 is already stolen.  This is class war now at the voting booth and it's vicious.  Needing a passport to vote is insane and a war on the poor. 

I don't like the bill and I also think it should be shelved and that we should be working to great outta Iraq.  Nor do I want to give putz any victory.  The CM will turn him into a god and the Latin vote will go to the repubs.  Just my take.

That both parties seem willing to bow down to illegals is disgusting.  Just give them the money and send them home where the money will feed and house their families since it's cheaper to live there.  Pay them to not cross our borders.  Why not?   I don't like this either, but what to do if fair wages are not in the offing and our own employers are operating from sheer greed?

Whatta country! 

Fred, they learned, they perfected, they worked hard to produce. They were fair competition. I say were, because now from America's greed, we are falling to the bottom. America looks for the cheapest, not caring about quality. You can't shoot the person that is watching the other one destroy themself. Even if America is considered as the origin of the product (if they didn't sell the business) and the product is still being produced elsewhere, but has the "name" on it, the quality of that product is so poor, and so is the company backing up that product. What, we have fallen 17 places in technology. That should be bothering you.

101.

Indy Steve
Fri, 05/18/07
2:09 pm


Our ag economy needs migrant labor. High school kids just don't pick crops any more.
-------
!!!
But WHY NOT?
Aah.., I forgot, they will probably bring not too much profit...

...I remember that was always a JOY and FUN....

Fred wrote "Phil, I thought you were above personal attacks - 'only you' is not only personally demeaning, if you read the posts, it is not true either."

Only you would think that, Fred.

Jessica, that is GREAT. You're really making it hard on us not attending, huh? :)

108. DITTO

Phil, do you have a link of Pelosi telling putz to shove it? LOL

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
2:09 pm

Don't get our (false) hopes up...the fix is in. Bush will get his funding with a few pesky, meaningless benchmarks which he can "WAIVE" if he wants to.

Then Democrats will try to sell this to us as a victory. Say BULLSHIT NOW.

This was fairly predictable from the beginning when Dem leadership refused to go with funding the withdrawal. I'd love to be wrong and will buy everyone a virtual beer if I am (that's cheap!).

Still, do what you can. Call, write AND MEET WITH your Senators and Congressfolks. They should be willing to meet with you and talk face to face. It's not as hard as you might think.

Has anyone flown lately and noticed how shabby the seats have become?  Some don't recline, some won't stay up, etc etc....I believe it's called outsourcing.  Makes me wonder about the engines....

"labor that can be outsourced" then Steve and the fields can stand empty and the crops come from Chile just as easily as the software code can come from India

Agriculture that if forced to replace capital for labor will be industrial scale which leads to a different set of security problems. But no one wants to do backbreaking manual labor, not even migrant workers.

Food and agriculture is a sixth of the production economy and touches everyone who eats so it is not an inconsequencial part of the debate. I was addressing the travel industry, health care, and other service jobs as well as the fraction of 1% addressed by the special visas. It is that fraction that does replace jobs one for one so is sensitive but not anymore immune from the whole globalization debate than other jobs

Putz likes the bill therefore it should be shelved. Give this man nothing becuz of his hidden and not so hidden agenda.  Or trade it for bringing the troops home.

Border fence that works?  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Indy wrote "Bush will get his funding with a few pesky, meaningless benchmarks which he can 'WAIVE' if he wants to."

I think this is what people said about Gov. Dean when he purportedly endorsed the Biden-Lugar amendment.  Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose. 

106.

Linda*in*SFNM
Fri, 05/18/07
2:14 pm

=============

Not sure what your point is, but Phil has been insidiously successful in confusing my otherwise straightforward points in my posts.

I am not surprized that your post is confusing to me.

You have to go back and read what posts of mine to which Phil has responded, or else Phil's responses will give you a false impression of where I stand.

need to go 17 miles to Lowes bbl

- btw my 1994 Escort clocked about 39 mpg (at 70 mph) down the CA coast last month.

It is that fraction that does replace jobs one for one so is sensitive

Phil Specht
Fri, 05/18/07
2:24 pm

This is what is an economic fallacy....jobs are not zero sum, one for one. Conservatives love to play up this nonsense. If value is created by someone producing, that value creates a job for someone else.

Think about it: if my job doesn't take away from someone else, then an illegal immigrant's job doesn't take away either. The "economy" doesn't distinguish between legal and illegal. The zero sum argument is BS.

Tom Bearse
Fri, 05/18/07
2:26 pm

Dean did not ENDORSE Biden-Lugar. Prove it.....or stop maligning our leader!

Indy wrote "If value is created by someone producing, that value creates a job for someone else."

This is great.  As employees become more productive, i.e., do the work of more for less, the work force can be pared down dramatically.  Undocumented aliens can be plugged in to perform the work of former employees without benefits, work place safety measures, tax withholding, or a whole host of employee overhead expenses.  What a jobs program. 

Tom Bearse
Fri, 05/18/07
2:39 pm

Typical twisting of what I've been saying. It simply is false economic reasoning to claim that illegal workers (or any productive worker) takes a job away from someone else.

That does not mean I'm arguing for exploiting them! In fact, any humane immigration policy would include protections for all workers. That would stop wage erosion which is a valid concern. But economics is all about showing how producing value creates more jobs and income, not less.

But then we also need the appropriate environmental protections. See how it all fits together?

120.

Tom Bearse
Fri, 05/18/07
2:39 pm
--------
Not exactly sure what is discussion about but, yes that's THE sours for additional employer's profit.

The thing is: THE employer (THE owner) is a decider.

Let's say if decider(s) would be WORKERS THEMSELVES they would find different (VERY DIFFERENT!) desision..., to such extends different that it WOULD satisfy BOTH participants: citizen and foreign worker.

This is great.  As employees become more productive, i.e., do the work of more for less, the work force can be pared down dramatically.

Tom Bearse
Fri, 05/18/07
2:39 pm

This is exactly how economy's can grow and, if properly managed, can increase incomes and reduce work required. But the key is the management of it. If all the value goes to a few at the top and middle/lower incomes stagnate, then you have a recipe for greater inequality and a breakdown.

That is why the Luddites had it wrong. Although they thought the machines were replacing them, the machines were actually improving productivity which would lead to higher incomes and less drudge work. Of course, it took the managed economy of FDR and beyond to secure that.

89.

I wouldn't be for enforcing the employer laws without some kind of legal process for immigrant labor.

I certainly agree with that Steve. I don't know if the current law provides any of the family support for them or not.The current bill certainly does not do that. Kind of anti-family.

I live in the midst of a large Mexican population, though there are only a few in my immediate neighborhood. The families are always welcomed by this small town. They share our little library and park, and are on the local little league team which our local Dem Club has heavily supported financially and otherwise,

We had a Mexican family directly across the street who have since left -- they had two of the cutest, smartest little kids I've ever seen. Mom could not speak much English. They were here during the hurricane Charlie and pitched in to help everybody clean up their yards.

We also moved here from South Florida 18 years ago. Our children still live there. It is one of the most diverse and socially interesting areas in the country, as you all probably already know. The immigrants there are NOT all Hispanic, many are Canadian, European and Asian.

As for me, I'm just an American mutt, but I enjoy all their company.

Phil knows this very well. It's why he isn't out there with a hoe tilling the ground. He has vastly improved his productivity and income with a machine that plows the ground. And it's at least a bit less routine work. He's probably out planting now (and not with his hands!)

121.

Indy Steve
Fri, 05/18/07
2:45 pm

But economics is all about showing how producing value creates more jobs and income, not less.
----------

FOR WHOM?
Why we so often tend to forget to ask THAT question?

"producing value creates more...income, not less"....FOR WHOM?

What for, all these workers brought IN ? For Profit!
By whom? By deciders, by employers.

I do not simply create an additional income.
You create, say 90% of it for "deciders" and the rest for workers (ratio 10:1).
While in case of "citizens" ratio is, say 3:1.

Hey Gang!!

Please help increase DFA's exposure and recommend this dairy on Daily Kos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/5/18/13529/7786

 Thank you in advance!!!!

 -Charles

I do not simply create = You do not simply create

former
Fri, 05/18/07
3:02 pm

You got it! The unraveling of all the protections within our economy during the Reagan-Bush years is the single greatest threat to our civilization. The growing inequality and removing the management of the economy has resulted in the decline of the middle and working class.

The response shouldn't be cutting off all trade or jailing all "illegal" workers, though. It should be reasserting management of the economy to work for the majority rather than the minority at the top, who you call the deciders! We are the deciders. If we are not prevented from doing it at the ballot box, the storefront and the workplace.

Indy wrote: "Dean did not ENDORSE Biden-Lugar. Prove it.....or stop maligning our leader!"

I hope you appreciate what hard work it is to find things you don’t know about just because you won’t look for them. The following excerpts are from a Washington Post transcript of the 11/24/03 Democratic Presidential candidates debate in Des Moines:

GEPHARDT: Howard, I think you're all over the lot on this issue.

First of all, at the time the resolutions were on the floor, you said you favored the Biden-Lugar resolution, which, in effect, was the same thing that we passed on the floor.

. . . .

DEAN: Let me use the first five minutes to correct an important thing that Dick Gephardt just misinformed us about.

The Biden-Lugar amendment is what should have passed in Congress, because the key and critical difference was that it required the president to come back to Congress for permission. And that is where the congressmen who supported that resolution made their mistake was not supporting Biden-Lugar instead of giving the president a blank check.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A10799-2003Nov24?language=printer

Charles Chamberlain
Fri, 05/18/07
3:02 pm

Done. Thanks for all your work, Charles.   Always glad to help!

And I put in a plug for DFA and BFA to get more folks over here to join in. Hope others do that too.

129.

Indy Steve
Fri, 05/18/07
3:07 pm


We are the deciders. If we are not prevented from doing it at the ballot box, the storefront and the workplace.
--------
!!!???
Show me the Party that says the "deciders" are subject for replacement?

THAT'S the whole point...which not likely to be resolved at the ballot box, imo.

Tom Bearse
Fri, 05/18/07
3:08 pm

You're the one who claimed he endorsed Biden. All along, I though you meant the latest Biden plan on partitioning. LOL. You were talking about 2003! Glad we cleared that up.

former
Fri, 05/18/07
3:17 pm

Well, that's in a nutshell what it's all about. Can the Dem party live up to its mission and regain its role (which BTW Clinton eroded a great deal) or is it going to continue down the path of appeasement and triangulation?

That is why I'm a strong critic of some Dems here. They are abandoning their role and their constituencies. Edwards gets it.

134.

Indy Steve
Fri, 05/18/07
3:20 pm


...Edwards gets it.
--------

I'm in doubts regarding him as well..., "two Americas" is good for each election season..., did suggest "deciders" replacement?

That's where he (anyone) will get to the point.
Not the case, yet..., but flying in the air already!

Tom Bearse
Fri, 05/18/07
3:08 pm

Thanks for the link....great trip down memory lane.

former
Fri, 05/18/07
3:27 pm

I really don't follow you. If by Decider's replacement, you mean Bush, the rethugs and those Dems who support corporatist policies, then yes.

If you mean replacing capitalism as a whole, then no. Capitalism and the global economy can be managed. It's a question of who will do the managing and for whose benefit. you've been good at raising that point.

134.

Edwards gets it

Long way to go to Jan/Feb 2008 but Edwards IS becoming the more attractive candidate. (No I don't mean just looks and hairdo!)

Still hoping for Al. But of course if Gore runs, when he becomes prez he will have a great pool from which to pick a running mate and his cabinet.

Anybody but Hillary who wrongly (I hope) believes that a huge amount of money will win her an election. There are many things I like about her, her collection of $$$$$$$$$ is not one of them. She's already been bought and paid for with eight/nine months to go. Jeeesh!

137.

Indy Steve
Fri, 05/18/07
3:30 pm


If you mean replacing capitalism as a whole, then no. Capitalism and the global economy can be managed. It's a question of who will do the managing and for whose benefit. you've been good at raising that point.
----

That's fine!

"who will do the managing and for whose benefit", if those WHO and WHOSE are WE, THE PEOPLE, then call it whatever name, that's fine.

I heard that Al Gore is going to be a guest on Larry King's show some day next week. Maybe if we all think good thoughts at him....
GORE - DEAN 2008!
Dean in Sixteen!
Jane

former

For the common good isn't the same as in common, but anyone who calls the current reign of corporatist theft, captitalism is maligning Adam Smith as well. Because I reject the inevitability of a dialectic imperative doesn't mean I don't acknowledge the wisdom of witness to a tendency towards monoply and the effort to resist.

I found Hank Paulsen's plan to turn discussion of the manipulation of China's  exchange rate into an attempt to turn their astronomical savings into a treasure trove for our financial services sector the kind of thing that would cause the revolutionary guard to re-form. the Chinese would be damned fools to let Wall Street manage their economy.

The issue really is the exploitation of labor.

Al Gore has powerful enemies because he was willing to frame it as "the people not the powerful" and they took offense.

Edwards would face the same opposition.

Indy wrote "All along, I though you meant the latest Biden plan on partitioning. LOL. You were talking about 2003!"

Oops.  That is pretty funny.

3409

Indy wrote: "That is why the Luddites had it wrong. Although they thought the machines were replacing them, the machines were actually improving productivity which would lead to higher incomes and less drudge work."

I know you’re an economist, but I actually wondered out loud here a year ago whether we can continue to assume that we will reap the economic benefits we classically associate with productivity increases from technological innovation:

"I’d like the theories of others as to what resolves the crisis that looms because of the nature of America’s untrammeled free market economy and its effects. I ask because I foresee a great opportunity for the political leader who understands the depths of the problems and addresses them.

"With the help of advanced technology, almost all workers have become more productive. As a consequence, they have become less relevant. Machines and employees who use them have replaced workers who were needed in the past to complete tasks. Layers of management have dissolved for the same reasons.

"The original vision, if anyone recalls it, was that technological innovation would free workers from labor and that people would enjoy more leisure time. Few people would doubt these results have come to pass for the former employees who have been thrown out of work but, in reality, increased productivity has resulted in fewer jobs, more and more work performed by fewer workers, and more rewards for capital investors, executives, and shareholders. By default, the forces of market capitalism inexorably lead to reduced personnel costs, greater concentration of compensation, and more profit for investors, the so-called risk takers in this model.

"Is this okay? The incentives built in to this model to lower costs and increase profits certainly drive the engine of a productive economy, but there are the built-in drawbacks as well, namely: 1) the exportation of jobs to reduce labor costs; 2) the corresponding diminution of the consumer class because virtually none of the benefits of automation and technology inure to workers; and 3) the greater volatility of the economy as it becomes founded increasingly on debt, asset appreciation and other intangible products."

http://www.blogforamerica.com/view/6777

I just heard on AAR that putz says *no go* to the new bill that gives him the right to avoid benchmarks, but it cuts out some of the pork. 

All this flak about immigration is another gauze curtain to conceal that another FIVE of ours have been killed.

Shelve immigration for now.   

Snips

From Snowjob to Fratto, the lies  and refusal to answer remain the same.  BTW, Tony should retire.  He's losing weight and looking sickly.

Subpoena all of them!

Reporters Demand Answers On 'Ashcroft Hospital Visit'

By E&P Staff

Published: May 18, 2007 12:15 PM ET

NEW YORK At a press briefing this morning at the White House, reporters peppered Bush spokesman Tony Fratto with questions about the growing intrigue surrounding the attempt to get a hospitalized Attorney General John Ashcroft to sign off on domestic spying in xxx. President Bush deflected questions on the matter yesterday, refusing to confirm that he had dispatched two aides to the hospital or even that the incident too place.

Fratto seemed to confirm that it happened today, correcting one reporter who said it happened in a "hotel room", saying it was actually a "hospital room."

Reporters also appeared to trap him when he re-stated the president's position that the White House will not comment on this because it involve a classified program, even though the hospital visit itself is not classified. A reporters replied: If it's so secrect and vital, why aren't you proposing that charges be brought against James Comey, the former #2 in the Justice Department, who revealed the details in congressonal testimony earlier this week?

They also jumped on his statement that the proper committees in Congress had been briefed on the allegedly illegal program, suggesting that they had approved it. Reporters asked if they indeed did approve it (which is unlikely)? Fratto dodged that one.

And, asked if there was anything factually incorrect about Comey's testimony, Fratto replied: "I'm not in a position to comment on reports of Comey's testimony."

The full exchange follows.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003587627 

So Ashcroft didn't retire after all.  Putz didn't like his *bedside manner* of not willing to be coerced.  Enter Gonzo the puppet pipsqueak.

Washington Post | What Did Bush Know, and When?
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/051807A.shtml
The editors of the Washington Post write: "It doesn't much matter whether President Bush was the one who phoned Attorney General John D. Ashcroft's hospital room before the Wednesday Night Ambush in 2004. It matters enormously, however, whether the president was willing to have his White House aides try to strong-arm the gravely-ill attorney general into overruling the Justice Department's legal views. It matters enormously whether the president, once that mission failed, was willing nonetheless to proceed with a program whose legality had been called into question by the Justice Department."

Has anyone else ever noticed that putz never appoints people who are taller than he?

things to do

bbl 

test

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/5/18/...

It is great to hear a politician taking a strong, clear stand on the war and bringing other issues to the table for discussion.  So many important issues have gotten overlooked in the constant back and forth over Iraq.  I would like to suggest one more that candidates should make an effort to address: the fight against global poverty. 

The UN and world leaders have developed the Millennium Development Goals which  outline a concrete and achievable path to ending extreme poverty worldwide.  This is an issue that the United States needs to put its economic and political strength behind, and we need to elect a leader who can accomplish this.

HEY PEOPLE!!!!

You know how I have been harping about training and also having a DFA table at the Take Back America conference.

Well we can have a table at the TBA conference.

DFA is willing on paying one half of the cost of the table which is a total of $750.

We need to come up with the $375 for our contribution. I am willing to put up $50 so we need $325.

If you would like to help you can send the check to Sheri c/o DFA at the address on the website.

We also need.

Laptop computers and people willing to man the table.

If you want to help me with this email me via email at dfa link.

Hq will provide literature and such but if we have laptops to show the website it would be great.

Thanks in advance for your support.

Linda B

A lot of you don' t like Dobbs but he's doing good coverage of the bill.  It's still being written, for one thing, and the vote is to be rammed thru within a week.  Who's going to read it for god's sake?   And this gives the new *almost citizens* the right to bring in their families for "humanitarian" reasons.  Good grief.   

The bill is an abomination! 

Putz is pushing the repubs to push it thru FAST.   Time to call the critters again.

137.

Indy Steve
Fri, 05/18/07
3:30 pm


If you mean replacing capitalism as a whole, then no. Capitalism and the global economy can be managed. It's a question of who will do the managing and for whose benefit. you've been good at raising that point.
-------------

I'll raise it once more (for you and Phil):

Can you "manage" without "owning"?

check out the *Dream Act." If it flies, illegal students get college perks that aren't offered to legal students.

This is a nasty bill people. 

Bill Moyers on PBS tonight including a portion of the show on 'free trade deals'...


http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/index-...

So Putz won't sign a bill even tho the dems said he could waive the timeline.

What is wrong with these people?  Why did Pelosi say that they have to have a bill on his desk by Memorial Day?  How can one stupid man and his henchmen hold the whole world and especially our congress hostage?   

What an effing disappointment these dems are.  They should just keep sending the same bill and make it tougher each time.

I'm warming to Edwards.

Gore/Dean 

This makes me want to scream!

White House Rejects Democrats' Iraq Proposal
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/051807R.shtml
Democratic Congressional leaders on Friday offered their first major concessions in a fight with President Bush over a spending bill for Iraq, but the White House turned them down.

Dobbs now reporting on our contaminated food supply.  He's not all bad, guys.  This is a he!! of a report.

The dems need to dig in and NOT even consider an  immigration bill  unless putz signs a withdrawal timetable bill.  First he signs, then they talk immigration but not before.

Are these people drinking from morning to night?  

Driving through with a quick hello from Champaign (picking up kid2 for the weekend.)

Belated Happy 1st Birthday to Kai (David A Stevenson's grandson)
(it was the 15th)

♥'s to all

Kindness is free!

I think Gore may jump in, considering the dems are giving putz everything he wants, including, most likely, folding on a horrible immigration bill, which will bring the repugs more votes.

Looonng thread! No one home?

Phil, not sure when you surgery is but hope all goes smoothly and we see you back here soon. ♥

later folks :-)

163.

sea,

it's all part of Dobbs' disguise. If he showed his Repugness all the time, lefties would never tune in. Besides, everybody who eats is interested in the food supply,

155

The TBA is when? 

Joan, I never worried about whether or not the food I bought was safe becuz we had protection.  Those protections are being lifted and I'm concerned, especially since I've found odd things in my food that shouldn't be there.

Dobbs is pointing out rightly that this imm. bill is supposed to be pushed thru so fast that people won't have time to read it....and we'll be sorry, (just like we were sorry about the Patriot  Act). 

Compromise now means that putz gets his way and the dems can tell us they tried. This is unacceptable.

We need a third and fourth party  and good people jumping in. 

Gore/Dean/Clark/Boxer/Feingold/Hart 

155

The TBA is when? 

june 18 to 20 at the washington hilton.

screw the white house. why the imm. bill now? it does nothing but divide.

no iraqie withdrawel, no imm. nada. ole.

talked to a good friend at costco tonite. her son in law was killed in fallujah 2 years ago.

her son is in iraq, on extended tour.

he hates it, he hates it and his new humvee was hit by and ied two days ago. he survived but hsi buddies did not.

he is not coming home yet, he is traumitized. he gets his blankets and sheets from churches that send them. two bottles of water a day thanks to halliburton.

bring them home.

this prez should be in jail and the dems are giving in. DON'T DO IT............

This country is one huge lunatic asylum, run by the lunatics of both parties.

Screw 'em all!

ACTIONS to Save America!

Iraq and Immigration!

The queston is what can We, the People DO About IT?

2. Immigration can wait to after 2008!

3.  No funds or volunteers for any Candidate who fails this test!

4. STATEHOOD, YES! Foreign Entanglements:  No!

174.

linda b

This woman should be before a Senate hearing before they consider sending one more dollar to Iraq.

The only financing they should be considering is to get them out of Iraq, but if they give Bush the money to do that, he'll use itt to keep them there.

175.

Huron John
Fri, 05/18/07
7:18 pm

Screw 'em all!
---------

Can't...WHITHIN curent legal system setup...by 'em all.

Don't forget to check out Bill Moyers tonight on PBS.

Night shift should be here soon. Nite all!

Time Poll
Should Al Gore Run for President?

http://www.time.com/time/

180.
-----
He can't save us...and probably won't try.
He's told us though: WE HAVE TO SAVE YOURSELF!

Al Gore, May 16, 2007:"I have enjoyed the luxury of being able to focus single-mindedly on this issue," says Gore, back on the patio at his Nashville home. "But I am under no illusions that any position has as much ability to influence change as the presidency does. If the President made climate change the organizing principle, the filter through which everything else had to flow, then that could really make a huge difference."

Are you willing to save yourself Former? Are you willing to make the change happen to move us forward? Will you change the way politics have been done? Will you join the effort to demand and make the changes we need? Has Al Gore reached your interest yet? Don't just be unhappy and complain things are the way they are, or the only people running for office are the way they are. Will you work to get the representative government you want?

http://www.algore.org/node/7

Will you work to get the representative government you want?
----------
Sure no.
I don't believe in government, I believe in people.

oops, wrong country

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816...

Wednesday, May. 16, 2007
The Last Temptation of Al Gore
By Eric Pooley


........
"I'm trying to say to you, be a part of the change," he told the crowd. "No one else is going to do it. The politicians are paralyzed. The people have to do it for themselves!" He was getting charged up now. "Our democracy hasn't been working very well—that's my opinion. We've made a bunch of serious policy mistakes. But it's way too simple and way too partisan to blame the Bush-Cheney Administration. We've got checks and balances, an independent judiciary, a free press, a Congress—have they all failed us? Have we failed ourselves?"
.........

True foe ANY! couintry

True for ANY! country.

What we can do right now is call and write our critters, insisting they put imm aside and focus on Iraq and impeaching Gonzo. We can write the CMW and the newspapers. The only reason the dems haven't totally caved, altho this latest idea certainly sounds like caving to me, is becuz we're on their a&&es daily.

Just the story of the midnight run to Ashcroft is enuf to turn our heads 360.  This is the stuff coups in the jungles are made of.  Putz is a dick ta ter and we need to tell our critters that, in case they don't want to know that. 

We must lean hardest on repug critters. 

184.

former
Fri, 05/18/07
8:11 pm

Reply to this

Will you work to get the representative government you want?
----------
Sure no.
I don't believe in government, I believe in people.

=============

The people ARE the government. You are falling into the Reaganesque trap of portraying the government as a separate oppressive entity.

Israel hits Hamas in Gaza air strikes
Israel ties into Hamas-
Fatah struggle; Netanyahu: Shut off Gaza's water.

====================

That kind of collective punishment would warrant sanctions for any other government - but we make exceptions for Israel.  Why?  Is it our collective guilt for centuries of oppression (and the holocaust,) a religious bias, or just a right-wing Western policy?

 Whatever the reason, It is bad policy. It just makes the situation worse and gives a more righteous claims to those who would support terrorism and guerrilla warfare.. 

Former, he is asking you to be a part of the change. You need to insist on the changes. And as he said, if they don't have the political will, you can change that at election time!

gotta' go tend to dinner.

bbl

All be well.

190.

FRED from OR
Fri, 05/18/07
9:08 pm


The people ARE the government.
----------
???
(no comments..., just think).


You are falling into the Reaganesque trap of portraying the government as a separate oppressive entity.
----------
Absolutely!
I do fall into such a factual "trap":
a) separate;
b) ALWAYS! oppressive.

CAPITOL HILL (AP) - A report by the Government Accountability Office says the U.S. has spent more than 300 billion dollars on military operations in Iraq so far.

The report was released on the same day the White House rejected a war-funding deal from Congressional Democratic leaders, who said they offered to grant the president the authority to waive deadlines for withdrawal.

++++++++++++++

18-May-2007 3 | US: 3 | UK: 0 | Other: 0

US NAME NOT RELEASED YET Diyala province Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
US NAME NOT RELEASED YET Diyala province Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
US NAME NOT RELEASED YET Diyala province Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack

17-May-2007 5 | US: 5 | UK: 0 | Other: 0

US NAME NOT RELEASED YET Baghdad Hostile - hostile fire
US NAME NOT RELEASED YET Baghdad Hostile - hostile fire
US NAME NOT RELEASED YET Baghdad (South of) - Babil Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
US NAME NOT RELEASED YET Baghdad (South of) - Babil Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
US NAME NOT RELEASED YET Baghdad (South of) - Babil Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack

Copyright 2003-2007 by iCasualties.org

-----------

Not looking good at all.....

I'm not sure changing things at the polls will be that easy.  Rove didn't like what happened in 06 and firing the attorneys proves that things are well underway to steal any and all elections in the future.  We need a landslide turnout.

Why haven't the attorneys who've been fired been reinstated?  

Are we abandoned for the weekend?

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