3377

The Deans are first.  Along with Roger Rankin today.  Thanks for keeping us up on the numbers, Roger

Thanks DFA for dong this. We need to evaluate the candidates on the most pressing issues facing us. For Edwards to be so responsive means a great deal to me. And where are the rest of them? Did we hear from Clinton at all? How about Biden?

We did hear from Obama and Richardson. Did I miss others?

A few days ago, I pleaded my naivete in the area of military strategy, and asked of everyone in general if there is any practical or historical evidence to suggest that an accelerated American troop pullout from Iraq will somehow reduce the violence or loss of life in Iraq, particularly for citizens there. The reason I wondered was because I feared that the vacuum left behind after our fighting force evacuates will present a security emergency in the midst of mounting sectarian strife. Sitka answered, but didn’t produce any evidence. Rather, he said we’re insane to do the same thing repeatedly and expect different results. 

In the immediate aftermath, it will obviously help spare the lives of American troops. However, there will be a security crisis when Americans leave, correct? If that is no concern of ours, can we at least be intelletually honest about it? It would be a hypocritical gesture, for example, to urge military intervention on behalf of the oppressed people of Sudan if our true concern is for American lives and not those of foreign nationals. By saying we can’t base our decision on the ultimate fate of the citizens whose homeland we attacked, we at least make it plain to the world that they can deal with their own political crises while we isolate ourselves.

46.

Tom Bearse
Mon, 05/07/07
12:02 pm

==================

Well said

...and I would hope our bloggers here would start reading and thinking rather than parroting mantras and mottos, most of such rhetoric instigated by this primary beauty pageant...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18339254/site/newsweek/

Edwards' response is full of specific ideas and plans with both short-term and long-term goals. I continue to be impressed by his courage in responding in specific ways to truly adress this serious problem. His focus on cap and trade, auctioning off the CO2 rights to raise money for renewable energy, lowering the cap realistically over time, are all necessary ways to harness the market to deal with climate change.

Conservation -- my gosh, he actually asks the American people to make changes in our behavior! For 2 - 1/2 minutes, this is full of great ideas and workable proposals.

FRED from OR
Mon, 05/07/07
12:18 pm

Putting all of us down with false insults, as if we don't have brains or don't read voraciously, is hardly any way to get us to consider your views of Biden. You can make your case for Biden without put-downs and cheap shots at us or the other candidates. Why not try that?

bears repeating, the heart of the putz.

Watching the Queen of England being greeted at the WH, that is OUR WH.

There was bush and all his war criminals. greeting the queen.

But the best part was when bush, standing next to the queen, wiped his nose with his sleeve and thinking no one was watching wiped his hand on his jacket, like no one was watching.

how dispicable is this man.

Indy Steve
Mon, 05/07/07
12:25 pm

====================

Why don't you read the article and discuss specific points, (which may be a revelation to you and others) rather than take abstract criticism so personally?

LIBERALS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE INTELLIGENT OPEN-MINDED PEOPLE

Here is it, if it won't fry your brain to read it.  Tell what you think,... or if you think,.. or are you too proud and headstrong to think? 

If you do read it,  please be specific in your criticism, so we can have something to discuss and not "parrot" the same old persona insults.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18339254/site/newsweek/

How about we listen to the Iraqis?

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007...

An Iraqi Blueprint for Peace

[snip]
Main points include:

All foreign troop withdrawal, including military bases and security forces;
That fulfilled, Iraqi National Resistance declares ceasefire; - Annulment of the current political process;
Installation of 2-year interim Prime Minister, nominated by consensus, under UN auspices;
Installation of temporary peace-keeping forces from Arab nations that did not cooperate with invasion, with UN consultation;
Elections held within two years;
Army and security forces not allowed in political process;
Interim government members not allowed in elections;
Reformation of Iraqi Army

Indy Steve
Mon, 05/07/07
12:21 pm

====================

Edwards is a whimp.  He was a liability lawyer, made famous by winning damage suits, his area of expertise. He wrote a book on it, AND YET He sat back and said nothing during the campaign, while he allowed  Bush to rant on about "litigation reform."

It was the less noticeable case of "wind surfing" politics

FRED from OR
Mon, 05/07/07
12:36 pm

More insults....I'm afraid discussion with you just results in put-downs. You haven't learned how to debate or discuss without resorting to names.

Biden thinks the US can just "create" three countries. That is not possible at this time and certainly not by using the US military. It may happen that Iraq eventually becomes three loosely federated states, but that IS THEIR CHOICE, not ours to make.

The regional effects of creating an independent Kurdish nation is a problem. Both Turkey and Iran would not permit this to happen so it would create a wider war as sizable Kurdish populations in those countries agitate for their independence. Biden ignores this....

This is the primary problem with Biden. He sits on his "throne" and issues edicts about how the rest of the world should behave. He would be a disaster if elected.

Speakers at the Take Back America Conference.

Register today to join thousands of fellow progressives at Take Back America 2007. Early-bird discounts have been extended until Sunday, May 6th, so register today for early bird savings. GO »

JUNE 18, 19, 20, 2007
Washington Hilton Hotel
Washington, D.C.

.

• .

4.

Tom Bearse
Mon, 05/07/07
12:14 pm

Reply to this

A few days ago, I...if there is any practical or historical evidence to suggest that an accelerated American troop pullout from Iraq will somehow reduce the violence or loss of life in Iraq, particularly for citizens there....

In the immediate aftermath, it will obviously help spare the lives of American troops. However, there will be a security crisis when Americans leave, correct?
------------

...lol, it's not that there "will be a security crisis" it's ALREADY there. What "will be" there we don't know.

But even that's not the point.

The point is that it is not an "option" to get hell out of there..., but IS "need" and becoming as such each next day more and more. All what American people are requesting from this government is to realize that need, that nessesity.... However realization of necessity IS a big deal..., IS a hard job..., the same as set yourself free..., lol.

Good luck with the journey to the...helicopter on the USA embassy roof.

Biden has always stated a three-part Iraq is best but everything I read from the Iraqis thenmselves says no.

For the sake of discussion...ignoring the three part portion for the moment...there is no discussion about how to stop teh violence.

Getting the Sunnis and Shiates to stop killing themseleves long enough to listen about how they can rule with the Kurds after we leave is the big problem.
It may not be solvable.

The question is will the violence be greater or lessen after we leave?
If we are a catalyst for violence then it should go down if we - the catalyst - go away.
We cannot stop the violence form happening. If we can't make the situation better we should leave.
The Iraqis folks think there would be less violence if we leave.

And who is starting with the insults AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ONCE YOU START IT IT CONTINUES. SO CHILL.

FRED from OR
Mon, 05/07/07
12:41 pm

More name-calling and cheap shots...not worth responding to.

HOW MANY MORE SOLDIERS WILL DIE FOR A LIE?

WE CAN'T WAIT, GET THEM OUT NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.

10.

Fine by me.  Unfortunately, Edward's response crashed my browser, but I'm really glad he is responsive.  I've talked to any number of candidate reps and suggested that they set up a page on DFA.  I don't think there's been any takers.

Most are still in a demand mode, rather than a response mode. 

linda b
Mon, 05/07/07
12:44 pm

Hey, Linda, has DFA agreed to put up a table and/or have a presence at Take Back America?

If I go, I'd be willing to help out. How about others???? How about a meetup!

dog soldier quoted from Karen Button's "An Iraqi Blueprint for Peace" on Common Dreams.

This is a dramatic proposal.  I'm not totally skeptical, although I doubt that a deescalation in violence after American armed forces leave is "simple math."  Would militias from Arab and other Middle Eastern nations join a coalition security force in Iraq to help keep the peace and, if so, would it be effective or more fuel on the fire?

We do not know for certain that Sunni and Shia are killing each other.  There is some reason to think that the "irregulars" are actually in the employ of the U.S.  

In whose interest is it for there to be mayhem in Iraq?  Who's using the mayhem as an excuse to stay where they are not wanted? 

The helocopter evacuation from the top of the embassey - like the evacuation form Saigon - is more of a metaphor for us leaving then the actual implementation. The Saigon embassy was the last to evacuate. The Green-Zone in Baghdad will be evacuated before the rest of the US military leaves the city. It would be impossible to do the Green-Zone last because of all the hostile fire that would be taken.

19.

Monica Smith
Mon, 05/07/07
12:45 pm

Unfortunately, Edward's response crashed my browser,
---------
Monica are you using browser on Windows or Linux?

The idea that we can stop the violence and "fix" things in Iraq is an archaic notion that we should be the power that forces others to get along. The situation in Iraq is beyond that. Yes, Bushco. created the environment which has unleashed the hatred and violence, but it cannot be fixed miltarily or by forced partition.  That is an imperialistic approach.

The US should withdraw its military forces as fast as it is safely possible, put all its efforts behind diplomacy and economic assistance (not for Halliburton but for the people of Iraq).

That is the BEST that we can do to encourage people not to kill each other. Killing them for killing each other is simply insane.

23.

dog soldier
Mon, 05/07/07
12:50 pm


The helocopter evacuation from the top of the embassey - like the evacuation form Saigon - is more of a metaphor...
--------
Sure, that's what I've meant....,
I'm not familiar with purely military implications.

22 et.all

The important point is we listen to the Iraq people and get their buy-in before implementing any plan.

The plan referred in reference 10. is similar to other plans summitted by various Iraq groups.
The neighbors need to be involved as that will tend to remove them as aggressors.
Also, the UN will have to send peacekeepers.
One thing not mentioned is the US pays for implementing any plan.
We also give up any design for their oil and abandon the bases.

$4/gallon by Memorial Day

Refinery output in the U.S. has been below normal for several months now, after fires and other accidents combined with longer than normal maintenance shutdowns, hurting production.

I smell an Enron-type rat in this obvious and blatant manipulation of supply. And you know what? There's not a politician of either major party with the guts to go after these robbers.

 Remember the  "maintenance shutdowns" of California power plants?

19.
, Edward's response crashed my browser

Monica Smith
Mon, 05/07/07
12:45 pm

Wow, I didn't know he was that powerful! Firefox should work...

Tom, is peace in our own country dependent on a security force?  The notion that the U.S. is in Iraq in response to some indigenous conflict is a total illusion.

When something happens that's been predicted for five years, it's not an accident.  The mayhem has been fomented for one simple reason--to give the U.S. time to build out its missile bases and radar installations and the espionage facility in the green zone.

Why is what's going on on the bases classified?  Because they don't want the American people to know they're paying for an electronic espionage network--the network for which they needed a model.  Which is why they engaged in wholesale electronic home invasion here at home.

If you disagree with my hypothesis, tell me what you think 100,000 troops who never leave their bases are doing in Iraq.

Two thirds of our military contingent never interacts with the Iraqis.  The people who are getting killed are part of the 50,000 who do. 

25.

Indy Steve
Mon, 05/07/07
12:53 pm
------

Agree..., and would only add, again, that we already have no other viable option

29.

It was Firefox.  LOL 

Huron John
Mon, 05/07/07
12:56 pm

Edwards has called publicly and often for a windfall profits tax.  They shouldn't be making record profits at our expense.

The real way to "go after them" is to massively shift from oil to other energy and transportation sources. And make sure we encourage decentralized systems like Edwards mentions in the video. Solar shingles on your roof can power your home and we need Federal open metering laws which requires utilities to buy back the power you generate at fair prices.

Indy wrote "The idea that we can stop the violence and 'fix' things in Iraq is an archaic notion that we should be the power that forces others to get along. The situation in Iraq is beyond that."

If we replace the word "Iraq" with "Sudan" in this excerpt, does it also express your beliefs? 

Hey, Linda, has DFA agreed to put up a table and/or have a presence at Take Back America?

If I go, I'd be willing to help out. How about others???? How about a meetup!

Steve, I was just going to post the the Early Bird special is still on at the TBA confererence.

www.ourfuture.org.

No haven't heard a word and don't expect to. Doesn't matter anymore. Tired of pushing DFA and getting nowhere. So they are on their own.

We have a bunch of people gonna sit at out table. From our women's caucus and people we have all come to care for from all over the country that have progressive values.

I guess DFA just wants to go where they are known and not branch out.

I give up.

30.
I don't want to sound like Oiler but isn't out belief in the rule of law the reason we don't need a security force except for local police?

Iraqis need a security force but we can't provide it.

On the French elections, it appears they are going to go through the same bigoted, fear-mongering and corporatist nightmare we've been going through the last six years.

Onward with unfettered globalization...whoopee!! Freedom to exploit labor and children, destroy the environment and threaten the public safety all in the pursuit of profit and gains to the upper 10% of the population.

34.
I don't see how we can do anything in Sudan alone. I do not understand the passivity of the UN and the lack of any dialog about how to proceed in any direction. The people are dieing in silence.

Monica wrote "Tom, is peace in our own country dependent on a security force?"

I'm not aware of it.  Things were a little more iffy for blacks and other freedom riders in the south before federal marshals intervened, but the scale can't be compared, obviously.

On thread, I find Edwards' positions refreshing, as opposed to Clinton's and Obama's murky double-speak and happy talk.

 As for Biden, let me quote dog soldier (16) "Biden has always stated a three-part Iraq is best but everything I read from the Iraqis thenmselves says no."

 and 27

"The important point is we listen to the Iraq people and get their buy-in before implementing any plan."

 We can't impose a solution, period........................

34.

Tom Bearse
Mon, 05/07/07
1:00 pm


Indy wrote "The idea that we can stop the violence and 'fix' things in Iraq is an archaic notion that we should be the power that forces others to get along. The situation in Iraq is beyond that."

If we replace the word "Iraq" with "Sudan" in this excerpt, does it also express your beliefs?
--------

My beleife, at least it does express.
Until that's the MULTINATIONAL (United Nation) Forces...DO NOT DO IT.

Tom Bearse
Mon, 05/07/07
1:00 pm

Absolutely, going into the Sudan with shock and awe as a lone cowboy nation would be a disaster. Organizing an international peacekeeping force, with emphasis on diplomacy and cooperation, would not be. See the difference. I am not arguing for isolationism but for a non-imperial cooperative foreign policy.

Here, have a look at this.  I ran across it when I was looking for Wolfowitz' testimony to the House Armed Services Committee about why we need a new generation of nuclear weapons.

 Two months after this Congressional meeting, Bush duly signed a measure giving Special Operations Command the authority to provide "support to foreign forces, irregular forces, groups or individuals," the Los Angeles Times reports. This was for the Pentagon side of the scheme; any money for militias funneled through the CIA would of course be cloaked in the "black budget." The Special Ops deal marked the first time that the Pentagon had been given such powers, which previously had been reserved for the CIA. The significance of this "liberation"of Special Forces became clear in the following months, when, after securing another four years in power, Bush signed a series of executive orders "authorizing secret commando groups and other Special Forces units to conduct covert operations" in "as many as 10 nations in the Middle East and South Asia," as Seymour Hersh reported in the New Yorker last year. The orders turned the world into "a global free-fire zone," a top Pentagon advisor told Hersh.

linda b
Mon, 05/07/07
1:00 pm

Oh, don't give up! Unless there is a good reason (like it's illegal!), for DFA to miss the visibility among thousands of progressives is simply wrong. Is there some kind of bad blood behind TBA and DFA? Progressive Majority is tight with TBA. We need an explanation, HQ!!

Absence a good reason, we need to insist they go, and that they respond to us on this. What's up HQ?

More insults....I'm afraid discussion with you just results in put-downs. You haven't learned how to debate or discuss without resorting to names.

====================

nonsense - you fired the first shot on a personal level - I just asked our readers to read and think instead of reacting - and you took it as a gross insult to everyone and personal insult to yourdelf - and went on to personally insult me.

The partition is just a way to leave the country in a relatively stable state of law and order, and local security control - what Iraqis do with the country after we leave is their own business.

Huron John
Mon, 05/07/07
1:04 pm

Right on...imposing a solution is sooooo 20th century!

33. Indy, thanks for enlightening me on Edwards' position. I'm not an unqualified fan, but he's certainly head and shoulders above the other "front-runners" on the issues.

In transportation, we need an Appolo-style program to revitalize the railroads to greatly increase their capacity to move people and goods quickly, both locally and cross-country.

Local trucking should survive, but long haul trucking ruins highways and is a waste of precious resources.

40.
I agree especially because we have no ideas what do; how to do it; and who do we do what to?

The UN memebrs seem to be content watching a horrendous take place. Even when Kofi Annam was the head UN guy. Annam is from Ghana and went thru the Ruwandan genocide. The silence about Sudan is deafening.

FRED from OR
Mon, 05/07/07
1:11 pm

The facts are here for all to see. Read #5 comment from you which I responded to. You called all bloggers names. That is your style. I'm not one to sit silent when an insult is thrown. But I won't call you one name.

Indy wrote "Absolutely, going into the Sudan with shock and awe as a lone cowboy nation would be a disaster. Organizing an international peacekeeping force, with emphasis on diplomacy and cooperation, would not be. See the difference."

In the whole of human history, I have never heard an advocate for shock and awe in Sudan.  I'm not sure why it's being discussed. 

The Bush fiasco is over.  Americans will be leaving Iraq.  Every sentient Democratic presidential candidate acknowledges this. My question has to do with timing.  There will  be a security vacuum that needs to be addressed after the troop pull out.  How is it being addressed?  That's all I'm groping for here. 

If we have a concern for the massacre of innocents in Sudan, what happens to it in translation when we get to Iraq?  The atrocious sectarian violence there has been documented in sickening detail since the fall of Saddam.  You will have to go a long way to convince me it will not escalate in the wake of a U.S. military withdrawal.

36.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but the purpose of an Iraqi security force is to make sure that the American bases aren't shelled on a regular basis and the necessary supplies, including fuel, can be delivered over land without being blown up by IEDs.  The people of Iraq who are resisting the occupation are to be pacified.  The victims are being blamed for having to be attacked.  It's a classic case of abuse and the American government is the abuser.  And our corporations go along with farce because they have become so incompetent and shoddy that they can't compete in the global economy unless they're backed up by military force.

It's just like the Mafia.  They can't compete on quality and service, so they use strong-arm techniques. 

Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but it looks to me like Fred has gotten a new job.

Tom Bearse
Mon, 05/07/07
1:14 pm

Well, there is atrocrious violence now. Noone knows what will happen when the US leaves. I believe the violence will decrease when one irritant is removed.

But we must leave militarily sometime. And it will not become safer in the next year anyway. Thousands of Iraqis and hundreds of Americans are being killed every month. Eight US soldiers yesterday alone.

So withdrawal as soon as safely possible is the only way to proceed. I favor a multi-national Muslim force to provide security assistance. The surrounding nations are not going to allow the situation to deteriorate further anyway. So the US has the ability to organize this with our influence in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Jordan.

Any further US military presence is counter-productive.

It really is above my pay-grade to devise a plan to get 100,000 technicians and engineers out of a country where they aren't wanted and to send the comprable contingent of contractors, who've been doing the dirty work, back to their countries of origin in all of Southeast Asia.

Perhaps sending a third carrier into the Persian Gulf is a necessary component of the withdrawal plan.   

51.
You are correct...The current Iraq security force's mission is to secure US interests.
The Iraq security force I mentioned is a regional force with UN backing that tries to temper the passions of the Iraq people. As far as I am concerned, Iraqis can dismantle all UN bases and use the materials to rebuild their homes and infrastructure.

The hardest part and the most necessary part is for the Iraqis to build their own security network that is not tribe based.
Maybe have Maliki, Sadhr share a joint leadership role with the idea of us leaving and them running their own country.

Indy wrote "Noone knows what will happen when the US leaves."

I guess not, but we can act like we do.

Monica wrote: It really is above my pay-grade to devise a plan to get 100,000 technicians and engineers out of a country where they aren't wanted and to send the comprable contingent of contractors,

That is the most honest statement made yet! How can we or should we be expected to come up with a viable plan? As a concerned citizen,  I want my elected and paid representatives to do their job. Not expect me to come up with it or as some Dems say, "get us the votes". No, it is their job to do it.

56.
Tom,
We know what is happening with us staying. We know why this is happening.
The real extrapolation is determing how things will change after we leave. To have any chance at all of leaving without even more violence, we have to get the locals involved. Which was the crux of the article posted in entry 10.

http://www.counterpunch.org/fitrakis05072007.html

The 1970 killings by National Guardsmen of four students during a peaceful anti-war demonstration at Kent State University have now been shown to be cold-blooded, premeditated official murder. But the definitive proof of this monumental historic reality is not, apparently, worthy of significant analysis or comment in today's mainstream media.

After 37 years of official denial and cover-up, tape-recorded evidence, that has existed for decades and has been in the possession of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), has finally been made public.

It proves what "conspiracy theorists" have argued since 1970---that there was a direct military order leading to the unprovoked assassination of unarmed students. Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) documents show collusion between Ohio Governor James A. Rhodes and the FBI that aimed to terrorize anti-war demonstrators and their protests that were raging throughout the nation.

For 37 years the official cover story has been that a mysterious shot rang out and the young Guardsmen panicked, firing directly into the "mob" of students.

This week, that cover story was definitively proven to be a lie.

Prior to the shooting, a student named Terry Strubbe put a microphone at the window of his dorm, which overlooked the rally. According to the Associated Press, the 20-second tape is filled with "screaming anti-war protectors followed by the sound of gunfire."

But in an amplified version of the tape, a Guard officer is also heard shouting "Right here! Get Set! Point! Fire!"

The sound of gunshots follow the word "Point." Four students soon lay dead. Two days later, two more would die at Jackson State University, as police fired without provocation into a dorm.

The fact that the Guard got direct orders to set, aim and shoot flies directly in the face of the official cover story that they were responding in panic to a random shot fired at them, or that they were defending themselves from some kind of student attack.

In fact, it seems highly likely no shot ever rang out prior to the order to fire. Nor could the Guard, who killed a student as much as 900 feet away from the rally, say they were under any serious attack from the students.

Now the magnitude of Kent State's impact on American politics and culture, already immense, has been significantly deepened.

But the media's apparent unconcern about confirmation of the official order to carry out these killings may bear a simple message: that we should be prepared for them to happen again.

Hey, I can lift a 10-pound bike one-handed!

duhhhhhhhhhhhh!

All the kings horses and all the kings men

can't put Iraq together again. 

 Leave Iraq Now! 

Stop lying!  Lies got us in, Lies are keeping us in.

 It's Oil about the Oil.

How about we listen to the Iraqis?

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007...

An Iraqi Blueprint for Peace

========================================================================

GREAT ARTICLE, DOG

But one thing has to be clarified

The Americans have unwittingly fostered the civil war by inadvertantly training Shiite security forces that turned out to be de facto Shiite sectarian militias, but this part of the statement below fails to explain how Americans leaving would immediately causing a lessening of the civil war violence.

A blueprint is desperately needed, Haseeb points out. “The political process is crumbling; we have coalitions of [local] governments rather than a central one. The ministers are all living in the Green Zone, meaning they have no access to the ministries they’re supposed to run. We know the Ministry of Interior has been penetrated by militias—at least 80 percent, the Army by at least 50 percent. That means the Americans cannot hand over security to the Iraqi forces as planned.

“They [the Americans] argue without the US Army the civil war will grow. This is nonsense! Even the Pentagon says resistance attacks have increased by 68 percent. This is against the US military. If the US withdraws, violence would obviously decrease. It’s simple math.”

What is the "math" here - that is not clearly explained, maybe you can explain it

The purpose of  the [Biden's] federation of separate states plan (so-called "partitioning") is to  give Shiite security to Shia and the Sunni security forces to the Sunni, and then there would be stability to continue to work things out from there themselves.

57.
The Dem leadership has pointedly said they will listen to their constituents.
Notice not one person here has stated any concern for our national pride or presteige because everyone knows that is nonsence and our presteige is shot.
But those are talking points for Repubs as they are worried about the helocopters evacuating the last person from the Green-Zone. Gotta appear to be tuff and pee as high up that fence post as possible.
Also, getting out of VN started with the grass-roots. I think it is our pay-grade to discuss scenarios because we can suggest Congress to discuss proposals similar to these.

No matter when we leave Iraq, the change will be felt. No one tried to claim different, but the long run will be better for all.

Just like an addict, when he stops taking his drug, he will go through a withdrawl, but after that, he will be in much better shape than continuing the drug that is killing him and his family.

You gotta' love those projecting Neo Cons

Operation Iraqi Liberation

O I L

bbl

dog soldier
Mon, 05/07/07
1:30 pm

Thanks for posting that...it shouldn't surprise us that this has NOT been covered by the MSM. Also from that same article....

“They [the Americans] argue without the US Army the civil war will grow. This is nonsense! Even the Pentagon says resistance attacks have increased by 68 percent. This is against the US military. If the US withdraws, violence would obviously decrease. It’s simple math.”

nonsense - you fired the first shot on a personal level - I just asked our readers to read and think instead of reacting - and you took it as a gross insult to everyone and personal insult to yourdelf - and went on to personally insult me.

The partition is just a way to leave the country in a relatively stable state of law and order, and local security control - what Iraqis do with the country after we leave is their own business.

Fred, this is constant from you. WHY? Don't slam people if you don't want to get it back in your face.

and what right do we have to partition a country? WTF?

this is a country, not our country. we can't even stop the killing and you want to parttion it?

Time for a military coup. Where are those retired generals?

hey linda in NM, did you see my post about the putz by the queen wiping his nose with his sleeve? disgusting.

62.
Fred...
"The purpose of the [Biden's] federation of separate states plan (so-called "partitioning") is to give Shiite security to Shia and the Sunni security forces to the Sunni, and then there would be stability to continue to work things out from there themselves."

Welcome to more ethnic cleansing. There is a lot of inter-marrying between Shias and Shiates.

Instead of bringing folks together, Biden wants to seperate them.

The simple math involves if folks are killing each other because we are there then the killing lessens after we leave.
We support Maliki and therefore we support the Sunnis against the Shiate.
What is not being done is dialog between the warring factions to allow us to leave.

70.

linda b

Yes, I did. You didn't see me shaking my head in amazement of our president Putz? :)

I hope Keithie will show that, over and over and over AGAIN!

51.
You are correct...The current Iraq security force's mission is to secure US interests.

========================

not really - they give the Americans what they want in a minimal sense, so they can stay in power and get the hardware, training and ammo - their own private mission is to take over the country and ethnically-cleanse (or oppress) the Sunnis.

I believe you also smell a Chevron rat, named Condi Rice.

 I hope you all know that she was on the Chrevon board and had a tanker named after her, prior to her appointment in the Bush Admin.  It was played down, and I believe they even changed the name of the tanker. 

Welcome to more ethnic cleansing. There is a lot of inter-marrying between Shias and Shiates.

================

Biden and his supporter are not blind to the marriage and other forms of itegration.  He's been working on this over a year.  It is a problem to be worked out, but  integration and intermarriage has also existed in other comparable situations like Bosnia and Kosovo, where there needed to be a separation, to stem the bloodshed

dog soldier wrote "The real extrapolation is determining how things will change after we leave. To have any chance at all of leaving without even more violence, we have to get the locals involved."

I’m following your logic. My concern is the security vacuum left behind by the American withdrawal. The U.S. is the muscle in parts of the country now. Remember in Mad Max, when the Night Rider and other biker gang members were spreading lawlessness over the countryside because the police were becoming ineffective as they lost their authority and force advantage? The police responded, almost in vigilante fashion, but there were no locals able to band together. The citizens were left terrorized.

Now remember the sequel, The Road Warrior? Social institutions broke down entirely, there was virtual anarchy, and tribal groups scavenged the land, leaving mass destruction in their wake.

Instead of bringing folks together, Biden wants to seperate them.

=====================

Get real - The vast majority of former Iraqis don't want to be "joined" At this point -They only trust their own kind. That is the present direction of events in Iraq.  The Biden plan facilitates that, it does not "impose" that.

Do you not believe we should be imposing our will on them? 

 That is the irony of this statement.

Biden's proposal made some sense 18 months ago when he first floated it. Less so now that a civil war has developed. The Shia have their big brother Persians  standing in the shadows. if we hadn't been pounding on Sunni strongholds  for four years the Sunni fighters could have used all the energy of the insurgency defending themselves, because you know there had to be some payback after Saddam had his boot on the Shia neck for years. not our fight, none of it 

You are aware the Bush set up AFRICOM?  This Year. 

http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_3327.shtml 

50.

Tom Bearse
Mon, 05/07/07
1:14 pm


The Bush fiasco is over....
-------
???
First that's not Bush fiasco that's Bush&Co. fiasco.
Second, isn't that the same what we've though with Vietnam?

I hope it's not over, I hope it'll continue somehow, not in Iraq of course, but here at home. Continue somehow to root out once and for all everything that cases such a disasters.
This time it must really become the last time...
Hopefully it's too far to the very end, too far to get over it.
Hopefully it's only beginning.

former

I agree. We have just made a good start.

Fred

A couple of other points Biden made yesterday that I agree with and that is in common with Edwards that we need to rescind the tax cut on the top rates and put the money into other priorities, health care and education.

And that energy independence starts with conservation. He called for us to adopt European CAFE standards as an example. 

Phil Specht
Mon, 05/07/07
2:01 pm

================

Notwithstanding the fact that 24 months ago, it may have been unworkable because the people were not ready for relocation (they are now) -  I fail to see a case for why  forming a federation of individual sectarian states before.leaving would lead to more violence.

I understand what you say, you've said it several times here, but you have not explained in detail (or at all IMO) why there would be more problems after we left the country a federation, than if we left without helping form one, that is, leaving  the status quo.

Maybe you can explain that now.

81.

Phil Specht
Mon, 05/07/07
2:14 pm
------
...lol, Phil, you are, as usual, in time.

77.
Fred,
I do not agree with you and everything I have said in the last two months indicates we should not be imposing our will on them.

Here is some history of the Sunni-Shia relationship. It was written in 2005

http://glimpseofiraq.blogspot.com/2005/0...
[snip]
honestly cannot see these people killing each other for religious sectarian reasons.


"Mixed" Baghdad

This even applies to Baghdad, the melting pot of Iraq. Inner Baghdad (the old city) has a number of traditionally predominantly Shiite districts and predominantly Sunni districts. The peripheral districts (most of them grew within the last 50 years) usually reflect the nature of the region most people come from.

But generally, most of Baghdad is so thoroughly mixed that it would be extremely difficult to think of the people there being involved in any sectarian or civil war with any sound degree of rationality. It is just not possible. As I write this, I think of my own neighbors – Sunnis and Shiites all around! People used to make many jokes about it… on both sides (but not during the past year! Those jokes simply disappeared! You may find this odd… but this is more worrying to me than all the "expert" analyses I read!).

------------------------------------------------------------
from 2006
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/The_Sunn...
[snip]
But he added that "Iranian activity in a place like Iraq and Lebanon" is one of the issues that Saudi officials discuss directly with their Iranian counterparts in the course of the new regular consultations between Riyadh and Tehran.

"I am of the view that there will not be a sectarian civil war in Iraq, because in most of Iraq the links and interlinks of Sunni and Shiites go far beyond the efforts to drive them apart," Prince Turki said.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Sunni-Shiate relationships are improving in SAudi
2007
http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/07/...
[snip]

Riyadh: At a time when relations between Sunnis and Shiites are becoming more complicated in neighbouring Iraq, the relationship between the two sects is improving in Saudi Arabia.

-------------------------------------------------------\----
---------------------------------------------------------------


We make things less "complicated" if we leave.
The only way a partitioned Iraqis is possible is if it comes from the Iraqis themselves.

Phil Specht
Mon, 05/07/07
2:20 pm

=================

Thanks Phil,

I think an exorbitant-CEO-compensation tax should be in the hopper to bring us more in line with the developed world - stock options need to be taxed as income.

We make things less "complicated" if we leave.
The only way a partitioned Iraqis is possible is if it comes from the Iraqis themselves.

~~~~~~~~~~~

dog

my point too, it is in their Constitution and they may go there (if they wish)

They may very well settle down and form a unity Government without us complicating things.

dog soldier
Mon, 05/07/07
2:26 pm

=============

sorry I don' have time to read all these articles at present, but the federation would be part of an exit strategy, to stem the violence where we could as much as possible.  Once we are gone, the Iraqis can evolve any system they want over the long run.

the vast majority of people don't hate each other on a personal level.  But in Bosnia there were people who were good neighbors for decades ended up slaughtering each other.  It is I dynamic of ethnic conflict I don't pretend to understand, but I would not bet the farm on imposing "harmony" on these people if they cannot maintain it.

It would be a blunder that would get hung on the Democrats, since we are the party for leaving Iraq.

It's been a good discussion. We're all united here by the deep concern we have on the disaster in Iraq.

Thanks, John Edwards, for providing some clear, specific, but not easy, proposals on to deal with the greatest threat to the planet.

Until next time....

Senator Biden is an excellent Chair for the Foreign Relations Committee and in a normal world would get full hearing for his ideas from an Administration seeking concensus.

I think we have a strong field to have a distinguished voice such as his as a "second tier" candidate.

He's a long shot but it wouldn't be the end of the world if he figured out a way to get the nomination, because it would mean he had connected with the common man of Democratic primaries. He needs to tweak his stump speech a bit to get there, right now he is playing to his strength a bit much as potential "leader of the free world" and not quite enough understanding of those "kitchen table" issues that goes with a career inside the beltway . 

Gotta admire Edward's eloquent blue shirt. Do you suppose he paid $400 for it? 

Anyway, I like the way Edwards is patiently developing his campaign into a smart appealing one. It all seemed so empty, boring and non-committal at the beginning IMHO.

Does he have Dean campaign people helping him now?

Hah, would it be forced relocation? And what if someone doesn't want to be "relocated"?

Iraqi's must determin their future, with our boys and girls back home.

~D.. Ready for relocation sir. hah

Phil Specht
Mon, 05/07/07
2:43 pm

================

My support of Biden's multi-state federation (aka "partition") is not necessarily my push for him to be president.  I just think it is a good idea.

Hah, would it be forced relocation? And what if someone doesn't want to be "relocated"?

===========

don't have the details, but my guess is that it would be at least like asking someone living in the middle of a drug war in the worst ghetto, to leave for a residential suburb.  Why would they not want to move?

No one is talking about "forcing," but they sure would be "compelled" to move if they  were Sunni and wanted to remain left surrounded by Shiites. 

Have you ever been there?  I have heard so many stories about people living or dying based on what their identity is, Shiite or Sunni.  It is an everyday thing. You have no idea.

9.

 Why don't you read the article and discuss specific points, (which may be a revelation to you and others) rather than take abstract criticism so personally?

LIBERALS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE INTELLIGENT OPEN-MINDED PEOPLE

Fred,

Your statement above was obviously addressed to others. It is proof that you are not a liberal yourself. So why are you here?

62.

FRED from OR
Mon, 05/07/07
1:37 pm


The purpose of the [Biden's] federation of separate states plan (so-called "partitioning") is to give Shiite security to Shia and the Sunni security forces to the Sunni, and then there would be stability to continue to work things out from there themselves.
--------

"The purpose of the [Biden's] federation of separate states plan (so-called "partitioning") is' to PREVENT at any price the metastases of Iraq war spreading across the ME threatening Bush&Co. interests.

His plan is a "peaceful" variation of Bush&Co's surge.

The GOAL IS THE SAME!

96.

former
Mon, 05/07/07
3:00 pm

In other words, "The purpose of the [Biden's] federation of separate states plan (so-called "partitioning")" is...

to ENSURE "stability" on ME in Bush&Co. terms.

Joan wrote "Your statement above was obviously addressed to others. It is proof that you are not a liberal yourself. So why are you here?"

I don't think this statement coheres logically.  When Fred suggests that liberals are supposed to be intelligent, open minded people, it doesn't necessarily imply that everyone here besides him is not, only that he expects people who respond to the title liberal will be open minded, perhaps like him, perhaps not.

I don't know or speak for Fred but, based on his comments, he has clearly liberal leanings on a range of issues.  By the same token, he's not a kneejerk liberal, and he strays from the liberal orthodoxy on certain others.  Sometimes I see his point and, just as often, I don't, but I don't mind him airing it.

Joan* In*Florida
Mon, 05/07/07
3:00 pm

=============

that's your spin Joan.  I am a liberal and prgressive, and on the left too, but not necessarily a knee-jerk leftist - I have a mind of my own, thank you

Tom Bearse
Mon, 05/07/07
3:08 pm

==============

thank you Tom.

I do believe in a big tent, not a pup tent.  And I do deviate from the strict left-wing to a  moderate position on several issues, among them, privacy (aka as "choice") education, and some smaller issues, but I am far from the right on these issues as well most of the time too.

Let's not forget we would not Congress today without the so-called moderates.

surprising support for Sarkozy:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070507/ap_on_re_eu/france_election_68

France's Sarkozy seeks parliament allies

By ANGELA DOLAND, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 49 minutes ago

...

Exit polls offered some surprises. Some 46 percent of blue-collar workers — traditionally leftist voters — chose Sarkozy, according to an Ipsos/Dell poll. Forty-four percent of people of modest means voted for him, as did 32 percent of people who usually vote for the Greens and 14 percent who normally support the far-left. The poll surveyed 3,609 voters and has a margin of error of about 2 percent.

...

Among the electoral surprises was that Sarkozy took 43 percent in the Seine-Saint-Denis region north of Paris, an area with a large immigrant population and high unemployment that was the epicenter of the 2005 rioting.

...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070507/wl_nm/france_election_dc;_ylt=AhQfwlRsY7k2gn7mN0FLwXhbbBAF

France's Sarkozy turns focus to parliamentary poll

By Jon Boyle Mon May 7, 7:11 AM ET

PARIS (Reuters) - French president-elect Nicolas Sarkozy started plotting strategy on Monday for a parliamentary election next month which is crucial to his ability to push through the sweeping reforms he has promised.

...

Most lawmakers from the small centrist UDF party have rallied to Sarkozy's Union for a Popular Movement (UMP), but the hardline former interior minister also hopes to draw in left-wing figures to broaden the appeal of his reform drive.

"We have to organize this multipolar majority with the UMP, the UDF and then a left-wing pole," said Andre Santini, a leading centrist deputy and Sarkozy ally.

REFORM DELUGE

A poll late on Sunday showed the UMP party ahead of the Socialists, with 34 percent to their 29 percent. Political analysts said the vote was likely to hand the new leader a clear majority.

...

The defeated Socialists face a period of bitter infighting after their third straight presidential defeat. Former Finance Minister Dominique Strauss-Kahn called her result a serious defeat and said he would be ready to reform the party.

Francois Hollande, the Socialist Party boss and Royal's partner, acknowledged mistakes had been made but warned the party against tearing itself apart.

He said the party had to mobilize for parliamentary polls and rebuild for the future by forging alliances with the far left and centrist supporters of third-placed Francois Bayrou.

...

99.

I don't know or speak for Fred but,

Tom,

Sure looks to me like you are speaking for Fred!

I have always disliked the liberal/conservative pigeonholing of people. Once the accusation is made, discussions generally spirals downward regardless of what is really being said.

Had breakfast this morning with an old army buddy who is a retired minister. We are almost identical in views except he defines himself as a strong conservative.
But go down the list and except for G&L rights and unions(me for, he against), we are the same.

....you are not a liberal yourself. So why are you here?

================

I am a liberal, but even if I were not, this is an open forum, and everyone has a right to be here, if they intent is sincere, and  if they are not abusive, and should not be abused, in the first place. 

I have always disliked the liberal/conservative pigeonholing of people. Once the accusation is made, discussions generally spirals downward regardless of what is really being said

===========

thank you - to be truly liberal is to be hospitable to all opinions.

Joan* In*Florida

===========

not really - he is expressing an long-time observation

Joan wrote "Sure looks to me like you are speaking for Fred!"

I can't.  It's all mere speculation on my part.  I just don't think saying liberals are supposed to be intelligent and open minded, as a logical premise, eliminates the possibility that the proponent is a liberal.

truth be told we sure as hell aren't flaming radicals, liberals is a stretch for most posters here,anti-authoritarian though fits, typical Democrats

all the wind has dried things out in the fields too

bbl

No one is talking about "forcing," but they sure would be "compelled" to move if they were Sunni and wanted to remain left surrounded by Shiites.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Too funny, Fred. When Israel did that in 1948 and the Palestinian leaders told them to leave so they could annihilate all the Jews, you claim a Jewish plot.

Ask India/Pakistan how well that works. Or the Jews displaced in 1948 from other Arab countries.

The wheels are continuing to fall off the Iraq bus.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/05/0...

[snip]
Iraqi Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi made his comments in an interview with CNN. He said if key amendments to the Iraq Constitution are not made by May 15, he will step down and pull his 44 Sunni politicians out of the 275-member Iraqi parliament.

"If the constitution is not subject to major changes, definitely, I will tell my constituency frankly that I have made the mistake of my life when I put my endorsement to that national accord," he said.

Specifically, he wants guarantees in the constitution that the country won't be split into Sunni, Shiite and Kurdish federal states that he says will disadvantage Sunnis.

Phil Specht
Mon, 05/07/07
3:43 pm

==============

Phil, do you remember, long before "liberal" had become a dirty word, that "liberal" meant what today we call "moderate"?  (i.e. Phil Ochs, "love me, I'm a liberal)

Yep, if ever there was a moderate, it was Phil Ochs, lol!

Too funny, Fred. When Israel did that in 1948 and the Palestinian leaders told them to leave so they could annihilate all the Jews, you claim a Jewish plot.

=================

Israel did not make the "partition" -  know thy history.

There was  a Peel Partition by the UK (Lord Peel) in 1937 proposed when there was an Arab revolt in April 1936.  Arabs and  Zionists wanted the same land.  Both had alliances with Britain.  The partition was a smaller Jewish State of much better land, a 15 mile wide strip 3/4 of the way down the coast from present Lebanon to present Egypt, and 50 miles of the northern part of present day Israel east to west. Jerusalem was part of a small mandated zone.

The other one was the UN partition, November 1947 similar to above, that Arabs rejected and Zionist officially accepted but privately did not accept.  It was a pretty badly "gerrymandered" partition in shape and complexity.  This led to Arab attacks and Zionist responses and Zionist Irgun and Stern Gang started ethnic-cleansing  town and villages.  This led to a full scale Arab response, which started the so-called "war of Independence" in 1948.

===========

The badly-named "partition" of Biden is something completely different.  It is a federation of States based on ethnic identity and population.  It is already evolving in a violent manner, as explained in this article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18339254/site/newsweek/

Ochs described himself as a "left social democrat" who turned into an "early revolutionary" after the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago, which had a profound effect on his state of mind.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Ochs

Israel did not make the "partition" - know thy history.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Didn't claim Israel *made* the partition. I did say they tried to deal with it by allowing the Arabs to stay. They didn't wish to. Chose instead to listen to their own leaders and leave.

Jordanian daily, Filastin (Feb. 19, 1949): "The Arab States...encouraged the Palestinians to leave their homes, temporarily, not interfering with the invading Arab armies." Khaled al-Azam, Syrian Prime Minister in 1949 (memoirs, 1973): "We brought destruction upon the refugees, by calling on them to leave their homes." London Economist (Oct. 2, 1948): "The most potent of the factors [in the flight] were announcements made by the Palestinian-Arab Higher Committee, urging all Haifa Arabs to quit, intimating that those remaining would be regarded as renegades." Arab over-confidence prior to the war (600,000 Jews vs. 27, 000,000 Arabs) was crashed by defeat, intensifying the flight of Arabs.

Almost 200,000 refugees left BEFORE the large scale war erupted in May 1948, while the Arabs had the upper hand! Arabs left Haifa and Jaffa, while British troops were still there, pleading with them to stay.

The British Mandate ordered Arabs and Jews to evacuate towns, where they were a minority. Arabs left (e.g. Tiberias), with encouragement of Arab countries, while Jews remained (e.g. Safed and its Arabs of Algerian origin). Arab evacuation - and the fall of Abd al-Kader al-Husseini in the Castel battle - was highlighted by Arab media, triggering a Domino Effect of further evacuations.

"Arab leaders were responsible for the [Arab] flight, disseminating exaggerated rumors of Jewish atrocities, in order to incite the Arabs, thus instilling fear in the hearts of the Palestinians." (Jordanian daily, al-Urdun, April 9, 1953). Ismayil Safwat, Commander of Palestinian Operations (March, 1948): "The Jews haven't attacked any Arab village, unless attacked first."

puddle wrote "Ochs described himself as a 'left social democrat' who turned into an "early revolutionary" after the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago, which had a profound effect on his state of mind."

That's why he sang "Love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal"  in such a derisive tone.  He regarded self-styled liberals as a bunch of weenie moderates.

puddle
Mon, 05/07/07
4:33 pm

==============

Your quotes are funny for the euphemisms they use.  The Western press hasn't changed much.

One can make an analogy between 1947 and Iraq, but there are so many differences the biggest of which is the level of daily violence, and the fact that they are both living there.  In 1948 the Zionists were moving in (some would same invading and claiming land)

The Biden plan is an exit strategy is a exit strategy plan for local security to end the ethnic-cleansing and civil war that could easily evolve (some say has already evolved) into a major regional war, something nobody wants in the ME or here.

The plan is not a land grant to one group but rather a solidification of ethnic identities.  The amount of land each has should not be changed.

Almost 200,000 refugees left BEFORE the large scale war erupted in May 1948, while the Arabs had the upper hand! Arabs left Haifa and Jaffa, while British troops were still there, pleading with them to stay.

===========

so what are you suggesting they left for California on a whim and gave away their homes to Zionists? LOL 

You need to find an unbiased history - I know it is hard, 99% of them are "Ra Ra Sis Cum Ba - Go Zionists"  I saw them at Barnes and Noble - but I told about that book by Avi Shlaim - it is truly unbiased straight history with many references, mostly from Israel archives and newspapers.  Of course, the right wing has labeled  the book "revisionist" and even had it banned for a while in Israel. 

just heard bush speaking to the queen. saying the last time you were here was in

1776!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

then he corrected himself and said 1976. the guy is an embarressment to all.

the queen was not too pleased.

Monica:   The only ones making a profit from WAR.  Did you know that the Carlyle Group (Bush Senior) is one of the largest money makers from war profits? $$$$   Eisenhower warned us.  And Marvin Bush – what a hard time following him through the maze of companies he’s involved with… also extremely invested in war profit and Jeb. $$$$ Neil – he’s in charge of all the software for ‘No Child Left Behind”.  His company, Ignite!  $$$$$$$  Sort of like Tamiflu and Aspartame – Rumsfeld company’s products. Tamiful causes neurological damage – Aspartame being sued. Nice people.                                                      

Since the SURGE began, there has been far more U.S. casualties…and no decline in Iraqi casualties.  (Eight U.S. soldiers killed on Sunday)                                              

Fred, you may not have noticed, but ALL those statements were from the ARAB PRESS. Please read again, with comprehension.

The abuses we have seen in this administration are in part indictments of the persons involved, but we must ask ourselves, "Is there something wrong with a system that would permit this?" and "How might we prevent such abuse is the future?"

The problem, or at least one of the problems, with our system is that power is vested in the hands of too few people. Even in New Hampshire, which has the best representation ratio in the nation, each state representative in their legislature represents (on average) 3,089 people. California is much worse, at 423,396 people per assemblyperson. That is not quite as bad as our national ratio of 646,947 people for each representative in the House. Of course, as many of us know who live, or have lived, in districts in which our representative generally disagrees with our own opinions on just about everything, this is not representation. For those of us who more closely align with a "third" party, we effectively have NO representation in our government. This is so far from democracy that it simply should not be called by that name. While it may be, and has been, called a republic, when it allows for takeover by a single faction, and when that faction can achieve nearly absolute power, and when that faction is largely controlled by a small sub-group, we must call that oligarchy.

In fact, any honest look at American history will show that an elite core has maintained power here for many decades, if not through the entire period since the ratification of the Constitution. It fluctuates back and forth between two wings of the controlling faction, but neither really represents the people, or ever advocates real change.

The only system that is based on the power of the people is democracy, real democracy, not the sham that has been called "American-style democracy." Citizens' Assemblies as the place of origin for legislation, and the place of ultimate determination of law and policy, but tempered by a very deliberative process that aims for consensus rather than simple majorities, combined with enumerated rights such as those listed in the first ten amendments to the US Constitution is the only system that will allow the people will to be the basis of the government, protect the rights of individuals and minority interests, and prevent takeover by small groups or individuals.

To discuss these issues further, you may comment on http://realdemocracy.wordpress.com or join and comment at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/real-democ...

Sam, was talking with someone who's in touch with several soldiers in Iraq. They say the big problem with the Surge Soldiers is that there isn't any place for them. So they get hauled all over the place. Obviously travel for American soldiers in Iraq is a big problem. Once more we get slapped with the BushBaby's main problem: All hat. No cattle.

puddle
Mon, 05/07/07
4:33 pm

===============

I don't know where you get those out of context quotes, but FYI Jordan had a secret arrangement with Jordan that they would pretend to be against Israel and then not fight them when the time came.  Golda Meir was one of the main negotiators

Golda Meir's famous statement in which she denied the existence of Palestinians, "since we threw them out....They did not exist" June 1967

126. "Jordan had a secret arrangement with Jordan" ??

Fred, you may not have noticed, but ALL those statements were from the ARAB PRESS. Please read again, with comprehension.

=======================

yea, I know, and there are probably out-of-context quotes from the Israel press that say just the opposite, so what's the point?

You know, I'm tiring of everyone teasing Bush for sitting in that 2nd grade classroom for so long, no budging when he was told we were under attack. Randi is talking about it now on the radio.

Can't anyone give him a little credit? Do you realize how good that must have felt for Bush to finally be among a group of people he was smarter than?

:D

Oh, wait, that wasn't the same classroom that told him the book was upside down, was it? :)

A Hurricane forming?   In May? .

126. "Jordan had a secret arrangement with Jordan" ??

-------------

Thanks for catching that - Jordan had a secret arrangement with the Zionists, around 1947 - in May 1948, Golda Meir dressed as an Arab woman and went to Amman to further discuss things.

Personally, I'd say that was among the LEAST egregious of his errors. Ideally, no one person would have that much power, but given that our system provides it, I would want whoever held that seat to be able to take a moment and act upon sound and reasonable deliberation...not that that was what he was doing, but just the fact of sitting there for a few moments is not a crime, and really shouldn't even be viewed as something objectionable. What he said and did afterward is what should be viewed as objectionable.

Bruce Willis Says JFK Killers Still In Power
Actor tells Vanity Fair he's skeptical of lone shooter theory

Prison Planet | May 7, 2007 
Paul Joseph Watson

In a new magazine interview, Bruce Willis spills the beans on his skepticism that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in the assassination of JFK, and suggests that the some of the same criminals who killed Kennedy are still in power today.

"They still haven't caught the guy that killed [President] Kennedy," Willis told Vanity Fair's June issue, according to the New York Post .

"I'll get killed for saying this, but I'm pretty sure those guys are still in power, in some form. The entire government of the United States was co-opted," adds the Die Hard star.

So from where did Willis, a former die-hard champion of Neo-Con policy, receive his sudden wake-up call?

As we reported last year , Hollywood director Richard Linklater said he had handed out 9/11 truth DVDs on the set of Fast Food Nation , including Alex Jones' Terror Storm and Martial Law documentaries, and that they completely changed Willis' political paradigm.

"He said it put him in such a head space that he will be quiet on issues of national policy," Linklater told the Alex Jones Show.

Is Willis' comment that the people who killed Kennedy are still in power a reference to the fact that George H.W. Bush was photographed at the scene in Dealy Plaza?

Either way, it's refreshing to see that Willis, who was vehemently pro-war and pro-Bush in the months after 9/11, has seen the light and realized that

Khaled Al-Azm, who was Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war, deplored the Arab tactics and the subsequent exploitation of the refugees, in his 1972 memoirs:

Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees ... while it is we who made them leave.... We brought disaster upon ... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave.... We have rendered them dispossessed.... We have accustomed them to begging.... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level.... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon ... men, women and children-all this in the service of political purposes ..... 22

22. Khaled Al-Azm, Memoirs [Arabic), 3 vols. (AI-Dar al Muttahida Id-Nashr, 1972), vol. 1, pp. 386-87, cited by Maurice Roumani, The Case of the Jewsfrom Arab Countries: A Neglected Issue, preliminary edition (Jerusalem: World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries [WOJAC], 1975), p. 61.

BREAKING NEWS CNN:   Iraq Vice President warms of govrnment 'walkout'.

So NOW what do we do?

133. While I don't doubt that JFK's killers (that is, those who made the decision) are still part of the entrenched power elite, I do not need Bruce Willis or Alex "Tammy Faye Baker" Jones to tell me that.

puddle
Mon, 05/07/07
5:29 pm

==================

puddle, with all due respects, I think this is a case of the proverbial  "he says, she says"

Khaled Al-Azm, who was Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war, deplored the Arab tactics and the subsequent exploitation of the refugees, in his 1972 memoirs

===================

Good  example of the fact that it is not as simple as "Israel vs. The Arab world"

puddle
Mon, 05/07/07
4:33 pm

==================

"There were many reasons for the Palestinian exodus....but the most important reason was Jewish  military pressure.... by ordering the capture of Arab cities and destruction of villages, it [the strategy] both permitted and justified the forcible expulsion of Arab civilians.  By the end of 1948 the number of Palestinian refugees had swollen to around 700,000*

*Shlaim, Avi The Iron Wall p.31

What I like about Edwards is that he isn't afraid to take on issues that are pertinent to the voters. Not shying away means that he will probably be the one to confront the issues if elected. Edwards' firm stance on poverty and inequality is exactly why I support his presidency
campaign. He is someone who understands that plight of the world population and American citizens who live in poverty. The poverty in America alone is astounding, but when viewed in a global perspective, something really needs to be done. Our leaders need to support the UN Millennium Development Goals to end poverty, and I hope that Edwards will try to.

Imagine how different this world would be without poverty. Would we be fighting a war on terror? Would there be so many instances of genocide? Would people all over the world continue to live on less than $1 a day? On the Borgen Project Website, it states that it costs $19 billion annually to relieve starvation and malnutrition, which is peanuts considering our $522 billion military budget this year. We need leadership that isn't afraid to make changes.

Sea Ice Melting Faster!

GOING, GOING, GONE: April's Arctic ice cap was smallest in recorded history.

By GEORGE BRYSON
Anchorage Daily News

Published: May 7, 2007
Last Modified: May 7, 2007 at 02:09 AM

Imagine three-fourths of the land mass of Alaska disappearing in a decade. That's roughly the amount of sea ice that has vanished from the Arctic ice cap in recent years -- and now it's melting faster.

http://www.adn.com/news/environment/stor...

That's why he sang "Love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal"  in such a derisive tone.  He regarded self-styled liberals as a bunch of weenie moderates.

=================

Well that's what they were.... What we call liberals or progressives were called "radicals" during Viet Nam because opposing Uncle Sam's military policy with WWII and MacCarthyism in recent memory, was considered a radical position.

Liberals were characterized as well-off academics, philanthropists, business folks, etc, that tried to see both points of view, but were unwilling to put their careers or reputations on the line for the "radical" view.

140.

Edwards could end up being the "alternative" candidate to Hillary and Barack, drawing more votes than he would otherwise. I doubt any Dem would not support his winning the nomination.

If these three end up 8 or 9 months from now still leading the pack, one of them will certainly do just that. The pack may not even exist then as many of the contenders will run out of $$ long before that.

POOR Lou Dobbs - brainwashed and doesn't know it.  He's being USED by...someone. Come on Lou - you can find smething SCARIER than saying Mexican people will spread Leprosy  throughout the United States.   You COULD have mentioned that many cases (which are treatable and will not cause an epedemic) come from - India, the Caribbean, Africa, Trinidad, the Phillipines, China, South American and - Castro ships anyone with Leprosy to the U.S.....  Have you ever noticed that NOT ONE of Lou Dobbs emails read on line EVER disagree with him??? 

HATE SPEECH..

CBS’s 60 Minutes caught Dobbs in one of these lies. (Dobbs making the case the Mexican immigrants are bringing in leprosy). Following “a report on illegals carrying diseases into the U.S.,” his show reported that there were 7,000 cases of leprosy in the United States in the last three years. CBS found out that there were actually 7,000 cases in the past 30 years, (Lou should do a Google)  and “nobody knows how many of those cases involve illegal immigrants.” When host Lesley Stahl confronted him on this error, Dobbs simply replied, “If we reported it, it’s a fact.” http://thinkprogress.org

......about 130 new cases are discovered each year (in the U.S.), mostly among immigrants from areas such as Mexico, India or the Caribbean, where the disease is more widespread ....entry to the US and their diagnosis with leprosy suggests that some immigrants, mostly from Mexico, may now be coming to the U.S. specifically to seek treatment, Pfeifer said.  A lot of our cases are imported,” he said. “We see patients from everywhere--Africa, the Philippines, China, South America.” We’ve had even a couple of patients from Cuba who were put on a boat by Castro just to get them out of the country

World Health Organization: Dr. Denis Daumerie, head of the World Health Organization’s leprosy elimination program, said fears that immigrants might lead to a resurgence of leprosy in the US were a little overblown. “There is no risk of an epidemic of leprosy,” he said. “There’s absolutely no risk that the few immigrants who are affected by the disease, if they are diagnosed and treated, will spread the disease in the US.” http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2005-03-15/whitford-americanleprosy/ 

Maybe in the next administration we might have a White House honor guard that consists of teachers, nurses, sanitation workers, first responders etc?  Rather than always the military.  I thought of this while watching the Queen review our troops.  Is there anywhere in the world that has evolved away from the endless military pomp?

POOR Lou Dobbs - brainwashed and doesn't know it.

=================

Touche! he is pathetic - he and his machismo Mexican-American wife would be more comfortable in a spaghetti western yelling "Gringo!!!!!"

I'm slightly warming to Edwards.

Gore/?

We need to be very careful about what's said and written.  Remember when Bank of America was reported to be giving credit cards to illegals?  Well, I've banked with them for years and had a long talk with them about this.  They do not give out credit cards without a guarantee amount being deposited beforehand should they default and the cards are given usually to students or someone who needs credit for a short period of time.  No one can run up a card and then loss their shirt.  If the credit line is $300, that's all they can use.  The problem with this is that some people won't be able to pay even the minimum amounts each month.

Biden may be well-meaning and certainly better generally than those on the other side (with the possible exception of Dick Lugar) as a Foreign Policy Committee chair, but I personally consider him a real lightweight on Middle East policy.

I have said that here before and I will say it here again.\

His latest views on the partitioning of Iraq only prove my point: Partition is apartheid.  Partition is not what Iraqis want.  Partition is just another smokescreen.

********

linda b: loved the anecdote about Bush's booger ...!

 Is there anywhere in the world that has evolved away from the endless military pomp?

___________________________________________________________________________

Well, to be honest many countries if not all do it but not to the extent we do it seems since the 1980s........the US does seem to overglamourize the military and its role in this countries heritage.............I find it comical that many in a nation proclaiming their Christianity, advocate war and killing as a solution to its problems.........

Edwards could end up being the "alternative" candidate to Hillary and Barack, drawing more votes than he would otherwise. I doubt any Dem would not support his winning the nomination.

If these three end up 8 or 9 months from now still leading the pack, one of them will certainly do just that. The pack may not even exist then as many of the contenders will run out of $$ long before that.

It's really a shame that running out of money disqualifies an otherwise viable candidate.

I said earlier upthread that of the three "frontrunners" I prefer Edwardsfor his forthright, unambiguous and unequivocal positions on the major issues, even though I'm not an unqualified supporter.

Clinton and Obama are pretty transparently hedging on the issues, especially the "BIG ONE"

I'm still hoping that one of the true progressives like Kucinich, Gravel, or Richardson (despite rumors of innapropriate behavior towards women) can gain some traction.

Otherwise, I believe that Edwards can trounce any of the "empty suits" now vying for  the 'pug nomination.

I'm not confident about either Obama or Clinton, for different reasons to be sure,

The whole I/P problem might be resolved if we had good and decent people in DC.  With this bunch of crooks, things will only get worse.

I wonder if the French elections were honest, like ours.  LOL

Anybody will believes that JFK was killed by a lone gunman should think about Jack Ruby.

Yes, we've been elitist since our beginnings.  An unbiased history of this country would show that clearly. 

 Why is the Queen here?  Becuz she likes putz?  Really?  

I have to go now and wipe my nose on my sleeve.

Worse and stupidest ever. 

So NOW what do we do?

___________________________________________________________________________

Sam,

75% of the American people wnated Iraq at one time.........its their headache now.......they crapped in this bed, let them sleep in it.

Just doing a followup on DFA Cosgrove family members and came across this:


Progressives Taking Care Of Each Other
by: babaloo
Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 15:56:44 PM PDT


Local Democrats in attendance at the 2007 California Democratic State Convention in San Diego this weekend were thrilled when Chairman Art Torres, in his opening remarks on Saturday, told the 2,300 assembled delegates about Vicki and John Cosgrove. After talking about his own bout with colon cancer last year, Torres went on to pay tribute to all the work that Vicki has done for progressive causes, closing with a plea to the delegates to go to the California Democratic Party's website
and contribute to the Cosgrove family.

This morning, Torres made the following post on his CDP Chairman's Corner blog:


McNerney Activist Falls on Hard Times
by Chairman Art Torres

Another example of Democrats coming together to help one of our own. Read this post from The Progressive Connection about McNerney supporter Vicki Cosgrove, and what you can do to help.

So you don't have to take it from me — it's official now. Feel free to go on over to the left sidebar and make a contribution. The outpouring of love and support by the progressive community for one of its own has been an amazing thing to watch. And if you have a chance to make it to the Sonoma DFA meetup this Wednesday evening, Jim Dean will be the guest speaker, and the meeting will
also be a fundraiser to help the Cosgrove family. For more information, check out the Sonoma County DFA-Link.

http://www.theprogressiveconnection.com/...

If you haven't made a contribution to the Cosgrove Fund, please consider so,

75% of the American people wnated Iraq at one time.........its their headache now.......they crapped in this bed, let them sleep in it.

Crapping in the bed and sleeping in it doesn't help the poor Iraqis who everyone agrees would be better off under Saddam than they are under the verdamte US occupation. We need to withdraw our troops and then send whoever survives the ensuing bloodbath a shitload of maney, so they can begin to undo the destruction that Bush and his neocons have visited upon them.

maney=money

Wolfowitz Found Guilty

Wolfie found guilty!

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/07/business/07cnd-wolf.html?hp

ANOTHER NEOCON ASSHOLE BITES THE DUST

His latest views on the partitioning of Iraq only prove my point: Partition is apartheid.  Partition is not what Iraqis want.  Partition is just another smokescreen

==============

"Forcible partitioning" is what is going on as we speak by the force of car bombs.

The Biden plan, FORMING A FEDERATION OF LOCALLY CONTROLLED STATES, is the only way for leaving the country in relative security, suggested so far, get real and read the logic:

“The president appears to be totally removed from reality,” Biden said. “History suggests only there’s only a couple … ways to keep together a country driven by sectarian strife. And it’s not to put American troops into a city of 6.2 million people to try to quell a civil war. Throughout history four things have worked. You occupy the country for a generation or more. That’s not in our DNA—we’re not the Persian Empire or the British Empire. You install a dictator. Wouldn’t that be the ultimate irony for the United States—to go back after taking one down and install

another one? You let them fight it out until one side massacres the other—that’s not an option in that tinderbox part of the world. Or lastly, you make federalism work for the Iraqis. You give them control over the fabric of their daily lives. You separate the parties. You give them breathing room. Let them control their local police, their education, their religion and marriage.”

That’s about what’s happening on the ground right now. Partition of some kind—with a nominal but weak central government—is probably no longer a choice in Iraq. We can either help it along responsibly or stand in its way while once again we misread the situation. Biden has this one right. He may have little chance to win the presidency—he’s way down in the polls—but the word was that John Kerry would have made him his secretary of State in 2004. If Clinton, Obama or any of the other Democrats gain the White House in 2008, they might want to make Joe Biden the same offer.

I like Joe - no hidden agenda.

LOU DOBBS - YOU'RE KEEPING MIGHTY BAD COMPANY!

To quote Lou "if I reported it - it's the facts!"  Only - you can look mine up and verify. : )

When we at the Iowa Platform Committee asked each candidate six neutral questions for a voter guide to be posted at the caucus sites in 2004. John Edwards answered back personally, directly, and quickly to our inquiry with short cogent answers. It turned out that one of the candidates put a "hold" on the project and gave me a little lesson in Senate Rules so they never went to the printers, but it doesn't surprise me Edwards does the same to questions from the DFA. He doesn't duck questions when he does town halls in Iowa either. 

after Obama's speech in Chicago and Edward's response to the veto the last few days I'm leaning John's way again

John Edwards was pretty forceful on Iowa radio this morning saying send the supplemental again and again til Bush gives. 

158.

Fred: I am as real as they get ... and I know very well whereof I speak.

So don't put me down so callously, please.  Like others, I also resent it. 

Monica and dog have the right ideas.

When you also speak Arabic and know and work with Iraqis and other ME peoples concerned, then perhaps you'll know more than I. 

158.

Fred: I am as real as they get ... and I know very well whereof I speak.

So don't put me down so callously, please.  Like others, I also resent it.

===================

So why don't you explain why it is "apartheid" and why a federation won't work instead of yelling slogans and tossing semantics around.

I have not been to Iraq and don't speak Arabic, but I base my opinions upon reading and listening to those who have made it their life to live in Iraq, frequently visit,  and follow the events on the ground there. 

Whose do you listen to?

I was going to post about Wolfie's woes, but I see that John beat me to it!  LOL

************

And Phil: of the Dems running, Edwards is the one who seems to make the most sense so far ... but it's still early days and tomorrow night, we get to see Al Gore in person ... most likely from afar, but definitely for real.

If only ... 

So don't put me down so callously, please

================================

I would not call "get real" a callous put down - just an expression.  If you cannot take the heat get out of the kitchen - it is just vibrant discussion - your innuendo is offensive.

Fred

Maybe Judy has more experience on the ground than Biden so I would tend to pay attention.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/70888802@N00/ for those that want to see a good campaign in action putting up photo shots on the road: Joe's sister took a picture of me with the Senator (in the section Joe in Iowa May 7, the big guy with the full beard is me) I say good job because that was from yesterday and they got it right up 

Fred: our only legitimate business is to get out of there.  After we leave, the Iraqis can do what THEY want ... we have no business doing anything to make partition more possible.  dog's Common Dreams url was more meaningful than the article that keeps being shoved down our throats.

As for listening to those who travel to, visit and work in Iraq: I very nearly lost my own director in Iraq the day that Sergio di Mello and the UN staffers were blown up there, so I think I have close to a pretty first-hand knowledge of what is happening there.

And yes, I DO speak Arabic.

Things are even bleaker than you can imagine.   But a partition imposed by anyone other than Iraqis themselves will be as successful as the initial invasion and occupation have been.

CORRECTION 

161.
JudyforDean
Mon, 05/07/07
8:04 pm

So don't put me down so callously, please

================================

I would not call "get real" a callous put down - just an expression.  If you cannot take the heat get out of the kitchen - it is just vibrant discussion - your innuendo is offensive.

Thanks, Phil ... always the gentleman ... and a wise one at that!

Edwards?  The other half of Kerry Edwards?  Voting for Kerry apparently wasn't bad enough.  Now we have to vote for his lieutenant.  Kerry did vote for the war, but there's no reason to worry, his position on the war was nuanced.  Plus, he was electable. 

Like him, Edwards voted for the war, but he admitted he was duped.  What a group.  Is this as far as we've come?

I'm jealous Judy.

I told Biden's sister before she took that picture I was holding out for Gore when she asked if I had signed up., and she was pretty good natured about it. Biden is one that wouldn't survive if Gore came in. I happen to think Delaware is pretty well represented by the guy.(not that I would trade him to my hero Tom Harkin). He's an asset in the Senate. 

mprov ... if you're about, this will advise that the DVD arrived in fine shape and I enjoyed watching/listening earlier today.

And how lovely to hear that your buddy lives in this area!   If things work out as I hope after July, I'll  be here slightly less than six months of the year and on "the other side" for slightly more, do let me know if you plan a trip this way.  It's closer than la Suisse.

Ah Tom, I really love how you turn a phrase ... but note that I said of those running ... I'm still holding out for Gore.

Phil!!! You look MARVELOUS! Great photo. And what a great smile you have!

Fred: our only legitimate business is to get out of there.  After we leave, the Iraqis can do what THEY want ... we have no business doing anything to make partition more possible.  dog's Common Dreams url was more meaningful than the article that keeps being shoved down our throats.

========================

According to the non-partisan experts on the ground, the Shiite militias that we have inadvertantly armed under the guise of Iraq Police force, and security police force, will (do what THEY want to do) start killing Sunnis en masse, and that will be the start of a regional war because the Saudis won't stand by and let the genocide continue. 

There is a microcosm of this happening now.

HERE'S A NEW ONE FOR YOU

By Greg Rollins
Christian Peacemaker Teams

Most Iraqis dislike the police and Iraqi National Guard (ING). Many people think they are nothing but thugs with guns. The police and ING drive up and down the streets (or sidewalks) shooting into the air and blasting their sirens and horns so that people will move out of their way. They abuse their power. People tell CPT that they insult and harass people at checkpoints, and arrest and beat innocent civilians.

http://vitw.org/archives/953

Tom

Who of the eight are better than Edwards in your eyes, two, three?

I'm neutral til August to give Gore a chance to come in, but whatever mistakes Edwards did make backing the war, he has it right now.

Yes, Phil, the thing is that we have a lot of very good senators that I'd like to see stay where they are for the time being.

Your Tom Harkin is ... and has long been ... one of my faves!

the smile of a Deaniac, Linda, we have seen many on these pages

By Greg Rollins
Christian Peacemaker Teams

=====================

BETTER KNOWN AS "voices in the wilderness" PCT was a relief organization that had leave Iraq in 2005 after ten years of helping Iraqis sufferer from sanctions under Saddam, when they enjoyed relative security.

Phil wrote "Who of the eight are better than Edwards in your eyes, two, three?"

I hate multiple choice tests.  I thought everyone knew I am supporting Gore first, Obama second.  I don't think Gore's running, and I've predicted that he will endorse Obama later this year. 

I realize it's just crystal ball gazing, but I did pick Detroit and Buffalo for the Stanley Cup championship series in the preseason, and I'm still on track.

Here's a good comment over at Salon about Wolfie's woes ... it couldn't happen to a more deserving little neocon ... .

===============

World Bank president Paul Wolfowitz wants the world to believe that he is the blameless victim of a "smear campaign" orchestrated by his political enemies. But in light of the resignation from the bank, reported today by the Wall Street Journal, of one of his top aides, Kevin Kellems, one could come to another conclusion. The neocon chickens are coming home to roost.

Kellems has a long and undistinguished history as a flack, first for Indiana Sen. Richard Lugar, then for Wolfowitz at the Pentagon, then as spokesman for Vice President Dick Cheney, and until yesterday, at the World Bank, where his job title was director of strategy of the World Bank's External Affairs Department.

As flack for Cheney, Kellems was responsible for doing his best to push the line that the U.S. was justified in invading Iraq because Saddam Hussein was stockpiling weapons of mass destruction and supporting al-Qaida -- two of the most damaging falsehoods ever promulgated by the U.S. government.

My favorite line from Kellems, in a speech delivered in April 2003 at the Public Relations Student Society of America Midwest Regional Partners Conference: "The United States did not seek this conflict."

Imagine you are a World Bank staffer, and in the wake of Wolfowitz's appointment as president, in come people like Kevin Kellems, grabbing $250,000 plum jobs, and immediately setting to work pushing the Bush administration's partisan agenda. At the time of their arrival, the worldview of these conquering heroes was triumphant, and they surely thought they could do whatever it is they wanted.

Now their worldview is in tatters. Their war is an unmitigated disaster. Their president is a cancer on the Republican Party. They are under assault from all sides. And they are beginning, as Kevin Kellems' resignation proves, to drop like flies. No smear campaigns necessary. Just the truth.

-- Andrew Leonard

http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/2007/05/07/kellems/   

Fred

Maybe Judy has more experience on the ground than Biden so I would tend to pay attention

================

That's possible, but so far I am not impressed with nothing but slogans and mottos.  I have found people who really know make a desparate effort to give detailed explanations of the dire situation they have esoterically witnessed - I don't get that from Judy.

Did you pick a horse for the Derby, Tom?

I put a bit of money on Curlin across the board ... and then, at the last minute, did the same with Hard Spun, also across the board.  (I'm a long-time fan of Norther Dancer's progeny.)  I left with more than I'd bet, but didn't pick the winner.

If you picked Street Sense from the beginning, then I just might be a believer.

:-) 

Linda 

I like all of the Senate candidates that come to a rural Iowa town on a Sunday afternoon and espouse Democratic Party values. You could have a speech writer who would read the Iowa platform and then write a speech that would hit those buttons that appeal to Iowa Democrats, but Delaware isn't all that different so other than the 45 minutes on the plan that Fred shares with us, he gave a very Democratic Wing speech, and I always have a smile for a real Democrat, somewhere out there is a picture of me between Al Gore and Howard Dean in Dubuque that has me grinning from ear to ear

Believe me, Fred, you'll get no more from me nevermore.

You're looking for a scrap, not for enlightenment.

Hey big guy...Linda has it right...you look marvelous...but you also kinda look like that ice cream guy...

http://www.truemajority.org/oreos/

at least the facsimile thereof...lol 

Believe me, Fred, you'll get no more from me nevermore

==========================================

Nothing personal - but I will be watching for anything else from you on this blog besides mottos and mantras distilled by leftist websites.

Judy wrote "Did you pick a horse for the Derby, Tom?"

Ha, ha.  No, I'm the first to admit I'm not that gifted a psychic.

I'm not asking people to agree with me, just remember that I predicted it.

oops...forgot that I have to go to plain text to make it clickable...

http://www.truemajority.org/oreos/

Judy

I watched the derby from a sports bar and the guy next to me was saying before the race how he liked jockeys that run on the rail in a race with 20 horses and darned if he didn't have money bet on the winner. I was impressed (as a cattle breeder myself I always look at the bloodlines) hadn't even thought who was riding which horse, but that was one masterfully ridden race. Poor guy only bet $20. The winner is pretty well bred too. Triple Crown?

You're looking for a scrap, not for enlightenment

=====================================

you took the first punch at me - I will listen to intelligent explanations but if I think something is hollow parroting, I have the right to say so and ask for more explanation, and that's not looking for a "scrap" - but if you want to play "higher than thou"  - that's your prerogative.

maybe 6-1 odds at the moment Tom which is as good as any of the rest (Obama)

Gore is the only other one 6-1 not in the race.

makes more sense to bet on someone actually running I suppose

Tom ... glad to hear that you're human after all!  Love your wit, whoever your candidate is!

************

Phil: that was a wonderfully ridden race and yes, I always hope that the Derby winner will go on for the Big Three.  But it's been a long, long time.  On the "other side," I generally try to watch the races in the UK and France, where they do a lot more running on turf, which I believe may be a bit easier on the fragile joints.  If I ever do come back as a horse, I'd love to be a race horse based in Chantilly, France.   Now that is truly horse heaven.

************

Well, guess that I'll have to pull out yet another distilled mantra from a leftist website.  

================

In the run-up to the invasion of Iraq in 2002-2003, oil was seldom mentioned. Yes, Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz did describe the country as afloat “on a sea of oil” (which might fund any American war and reconstruction program there); and, yes, on rare occasions, the President did speak reverentially of preserving “the patrimony of the people of Iraq” — by which he meant not cuneiform tablets or ancient statues in the National Museum in Baghdad, but the country’s vast oil reserves, known and suspected. And yes, oil did make it prominently onto the signs of war protestors at home and abroad.

Everybody who was anybody in Washington and the media, not to speak of the punditocracy and think-tank-ocracy of our nation knew, however, that those bobbing signs among the millions of antiwar demonstrators that said “No Blood for Oil” were just so simplistic, if not utterly simpleminded. Oil news, as was only proper, was generally relegated to the business pages of our papers, or even more properly — since it was at best but one modest factor among so very many in Bush administration calculations — roundly ignored. Admittedly, the first “reconstruction” contract the administration issued was to Halliburton to rescue that country’s “patrimony,” its oil fields, from potential self-destruction during the invasion, and the key instructions — possibly just about the only instructions — issued to U.S. troops after taking Baghdad were to guard the Oil Ministry. Then again, everyone knew this crew had their idiosyncrasies.

Ever since, oil has played a remarkably small part in the consideration of, coverage of, or retrospective assessments of the invasion, occupation, and war in Iraq (unless you lived on the Internet). To give but a single example, the index to Thomas E. Ricks’ almost 500-page bestseller, Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq, has but a single relevant entry: “oil exports and postwar reconstruction, Wolfowitz on, 98.” Yet today, every leading politician of either party is strangely convinced that the key “benchmark” the government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki must pass to prove its mettle is the onerous oil law, now stalled in Parliament, that has been forced upon it by the Bush administration.

[...]

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/05/07/1023/ 

from my son

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I saw Obama yesterday. He spoke at Southern University for the National
Conference of Black Mayors. The crowd was pretty big-astoundingly so for a
year and a half before the elections, and a city like Baton Rouge, which
isn't really politically influential nationally.

( ...)

He gave a great speech. He did something that Kerry never did, which is tie
the cost of Iraq to domestic costs. For example, he said that what we spend
in Iraq every three weeks could pay for four years of a public university
for every college kid in America

   But a partition imposed by anyone other than Iraqis themselves will be as successful as the initial invasion and occupation have been

And yes, I DO speak Arabic.

Things are even bleaker than you can imagine. 

==============================

impose?  I don't read that.  Biden never suggested "imposing" anything the people would not willingly support.

Well then you don't have any solutions other than leave a vacuum with butchers in control?

Omigosh, Mitt Romney has really lost it ... I'm sure the French will be more interested than any to hear about their seven-year marriage contracts.

Just when you think that the 'Pugs have scraped the bottom of the barrel, they manage to scrape even lower.

==================

Romney in Virginia to court religious right

      VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. — Former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney made only a passing reference to his LDS faith as he continued his outreach Saturday to conservative Christians in a graduation speech at Regent University, the school founded by televangelist Pat Robertson.

Instead, Romney, who is intensely courting this key segment of his Republican Party's base in hopes of winning the 2008 presidential nomination, expounded on themes less specific to his candidacy such as the importance of child-rearing and marriage and the presence of evil in the world.

      He said "there is no work more important to America's future than the work that is done within the four walls of the American home" and he criticized people who choose not to get married because they enjoy the single life.

      "It seems that Europe leads Americans in this way of thinking," Romney told the crowd of more than 5,000. "In France, for instance, I'm told that marriage is frequently contracted in seven-year terms where either party can move when their term is up. How shallow and how different from the Europe of the past."

      And he twice made reference to the Virginia Tech shootings on April 16 in which a gunman killed 32 people before killing himself.

      "We're shocked by the evil of the Virginia Tech shooting," Romney said. "I opened my Bible shortly after I heard of the tragedy. Only a few verses it seems after the Fall, we read that Adam and Eve's oldest son killed his younger brother. From the beginning there has been evil in the world."

      He added: "Pornography and violence poison our music and movies and TV and video games. The Virginia Tech shooter, like the Columbine shooters before him, had drunk from this cesspool."

[...]

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660218144,00.html

The streets of Greensberg Kansas look exactly like those I saw along the Gulf Coast last year. I hope FEMA treats those folks better. my daughter-in- law has a over the road trucker for a brother that drives 10 and when I saw him at Easter he said much still looks the same. 

bbl

As for listening to those who travel to, visit and work in Iraq: I very nearly lost my own director in Iraq the day that Sergio di Mello and the UN staffers were blown up there, so I think I have close to a pretty first-hand knowledge of what is happening there.

==================

I guess that gives you the moral right to humiliate anyone who disagrees with you sans explanation

Hadn't seen this one before ... Charles may already have posted it, but in case it got missed ....

Any comments, Charles? 

==================

avid Sirota is the author of Hostile Takeover: How Big Money and Corruption Conquered Our Government —And How We Take It Back. This article originally appeared in the San Francsico Chronicle.

When most non-Montanans think of Montana, they think of "A River Runs Through It." They don't think of the central front in the war on anything (except, maybe trout, if you consider fly fishermen warriors). But for the last week, this sparsely populated state has been the central front in the war on the middle class, and the onslaught Big Sky country experienced shows that this fight could be coming to a town near you.

Our story begins in the Montana legislature, though it could be anywhere, as this lawmaking body is a microcosm of America's ideological divides. Democrats pushed to boost education spending and give each resident homeowner a $400 property tax rebate. To fund the plan, they proposed closing tax loopholes and strengthening tax enforcement in a state where roughly half of all Fortune 500 companies doing business get away with paying less than $500 a year in taxes.

But such a move offends conservative politicians and the corporate lobbyists who crowd the hallways of state capitols like the one in Helena—and these types don't take lightly to being offended.

The GOP-controlled Montana House pressed a tax cut for corporations financed by spending cuts, including one eliminating all public-health programs. When last week it came time to negotiate a compromise, Republican class warriors dug in further, offering amendments to kill Democrats' proposal to beef up corporate tax enforcement.

The result? The legislature ended without a budget, and Montana is now on the brink of its own version of the 1996 Gingrich-Clinton government shutdown. It is a troubling situation for middle-class Montanans, but for anti-government Republican politicians and lobbyists, it is a big victory in their war on the middle class.

[...]

At a time of growing job insecurity, stagnating wages and Great Depression-level economic inequality, the 2006 election gave us reason to hope for change. But as events in Montana show, change will not come with one election, nor will it come easy. If the war on the middle class can make its wrath felt in a small state's part-time legislature or cheerily propagandize at a decimated town's economic-development meeting, you can bet it can—and will—come anywhere.

Me too, Phil ... best to you!

Great picture, Phil! Hope you have a print of the one with Gore and Dean :-)

Hi Judy - good to see you

Tom - I agree with Judy on the good wit and wonder if you have any lottery numbers... interesting prediction, btw.

183.

Phil Specht

Somewhere out there is a picture of me between Al Gore and Howard Dean in Dubuque that has me grinning from ear to ear.


--->> How I would love to see that picture. No doubt a grin from ear to ear that I'm sure brings a similar smile right now just thinking about it. When I smile or laugh hard, my hubby calls it my Chipmunk face (cheeks push up and eyes close) so I doubt my photo would be very good, but I sure would sacrifice for the opportunity.

Was gone, but this caught my eye and it is much too fun NOT to post ... even if the Telegraph is hardly one of my leftist sites.   LOL

Once an oaf, always  ... 

=================

With the Queen standing at his side on the White House lawn and the world's media hanging on his words, it was probably not the best moment for George Bush to make one of his famous gaffes. 

But with impressive comic timing, the American President recovered from almost suggesting that his guest was around in the 18th century and ended up ensuring that his 7,000 strong audience laughed with him, rather than at him.

Mr Bush's slip came during a welcoming speech as the Queen began the Washington stage of her US state visit.

The United States was a nation she "had come to know very well", he said. "After all, you've dined with 10 US presidents. You helped our nation celebrate its bicentennial in 17 - 1976."

As many in the crowd burst out laughing, Mr Bush turned and looked sheepishly at the Queen. Peering at him from beneath her hat, she did not appear to share the general merriment.

[...]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/08/wqueen08.xml 

T2T4 & Linda!  Sorry that I can't stay right now, but it's always good to *see* you!

Gore sees 'spiritual crisis' in warming

Web Posted: 05/05/2007 11:12 PM CDT

Anton Caputo
Express-News

Playing equal parts visionary, cheerleader and comedian, Al Gore brought his message of how to fight global warming to a capacity crowd of receptive architects Saturday in San Antonio.

The former vice president referred continually to a "new way of thinking" that is emerging in the country and offered hope in the battle to control the effects global warming will have on the planet.

"It's in part a spiritual crisis," Gore told the crowd in the Convention Center at the American Institute of Architects national convention. "It's a crisis of our own self-definition — who we are. Are we creatures destined to destroy our own species? Clearly not."

...

His speech was often interrupted by thunderous applause and explosive laughter from the several thousand architects who packed the Convention Center's ballroom.

"I used to be the next president of the United States," Gore deadpanned to the laughing crowd as he introduced himself. "I don't find that funny. Put yourself in my position. I flew in Air Force Two for eight years. Now I have to take off my shoes to get on an airplane."

In between jokes, Gore called for a change in thinking about climate issues and the pollution that causes global warming. He was especially critical of the business community's current focus on quarterly profits at the expense of sustainable business practices.

"That's functionally insane, but that is the dominant reality in the world today," Gore said.

This struck a chord with the architects at Saturday's event because many environmentally friendly building practices cost more upfront, which makes them a harder sell, but end up costing much less over the lifetime of a building.

Gore's speech came on the heels of a report issued by the United Nations' International Panel on Climate Change that concluded cutting greenhouse gas emissions enough to eliminate the worst impacts of climate change is affordable. The international group put the cost at 0.12 percent of economic growth each year.Among the solutions Gore touted Saturday were a cap-and-trade system for carbon dioxide. This is the method of controlling greenhouse gases pushed by the international Kyoto Protocol, an international effort to fight global warming that the United Sates chose not to join in 2001.

Gore also called for a business pollution tax that would be used to offset or eliminate employment and payroll taxes and for the creation of a federal mortgage institution that would help offset the cost of building environmentally friendly homes.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/s...

The Senate Judiciary Committee asked Bradley Schlozman, a former senior civil rights attorney and U.S. attorney, to speak with investigators. The Justice Department, meanwhile, said it wouldn't try to prevent Congress from granting immunity to White House liaison Monica Goodling if she testifies before a committee.

Lawmakers want to talk to Schlozman and Goodling as part of an inquiry into whether the department played politics with the hiring and firing of department officials. The inquiry began as a question about whether U.S. attorneys - presidential appointees who serve as the top federal law enforcement officials in their state districts - were fired for political reasons.

It has grown, however, into an investigation of whether the agency let politics affect criminal investigations and whether officials made employment decisions for political reasons.

Lawmakers want to question Schlozman, who now works for the Executive Office for United States Attorneys, about a voter fraud lawsuit he filed against Missouri in November 2005.

Committee members said they wanted to know whether U.S. Attorney Todd Graves of Kansas City, Mo., was forced out for not endorsing that lawsuit, which was ultimately dismissed. Graves resigned from his post in March 2006 and Schlozman replaced him as interim U.S. attorney.

Five days before the November 2006 election, Schlozman filed another lawsuit, this time accusing members of a liberal activist group of voter registration fraud. Justice Department policy discourages such lawsuits so close to the election....

Judy.....nice to see you too...and your excellent skills :) !!!

Take it easy.

_______________________


Howdy Thankful

Will catcha later, Judy :-)

Howdy Linda.

No Drug Imports......Important Bill voted today.

Would have been nice to have all the Senators there to vote on it.

Senate backs drug import safety certification
Mon May 7, 2007 7:47PM EDT
P

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - In a setback for supporters of legalizing the import of cheaper drugs into the United States, the Senate voted 49-40 on Monday for an amendment to require safety certification of drugs from abroad.

The safety requirement, offered by Mississippi Republican Thad Cochran, amended an underlying measure from North Dakota Democrat Byron Dorgan that would legalize drug importation.

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsN...

bbl

  dog's Common Dreams url was more meaningful than the article that keeps being shoved down our throats

--------------------

I read it and did not see anything that counters the points made in the Biden article

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18339254/site/newsweek/

I am looking for intelligent elaborate explanation why it is not a good idea but all I get is false characterizations of the plans, cliches and one-sentence mantras.  The same ones repeated again and again - That's what I get "shoved down MY throat."

Iraq comes to Kansas as Bush's Blunder and incompetence strike home again........

A shortage of trucks, helicopters and other equipment -- all sent to the war in Iraq -- has hampered recovery in a U.S. town obliterated by a tornado, Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius said on Monday.

"There is no doubt at all that this will slow down and hamper the recovery," Sebelius, a Democrat, told Reuters in Kansas, where officials said the statewide death toll had risen to 12 on Monday.

"Not having this equipment in place all over the state is a huge handicap," Sebelius said.....

Kansas Emergency Management spokeswoman Sharon Watson said because of the shortage of National Guard equipment, the state was rushing to hire contractors to help clear debris....

Sebelius said the failure by Washington to replace or return state National Guard equipment deployed to Iraq was "not a very satisfying effort."

The governor said Kansas lacks about half the large equipment it could use for recovery efforts and debris removal, including dump trucks and front loaders. More than 20 percent of its Humvees and 15 of 19 helicopters were sent to Iraq, according to officials with the Kansas National Guard.

Only Bush could turn KS into a blue state. 

211. I just loved (not) how he told the people of Kansas that they would be taken care of. Sure, look at all the Katrina victims whom he has forgotten.

165 - great pic, Phil!

THIS PART OF THE ARTICLE CONFUSES ME 

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/05/05/998/

Main points include:

..........

• Reformation of Iraqi Army

...... We know the Ministry of Interior has been penetrated by militias—at least 80 percent, the Army by at least 50 percent. That means the Americans cannot hand over security to the Iraqi forces as planned.

“They [the Americans] argue without the US Army the civil war will grow. This is nonsense! Even the Pentagon says resistance attacks have increased by 68 percent. This is against the US military. If the US withdraws, violence would obviously decrease. It’s simple math.”

.......“I personally prefer to work out a plan for withdrawal with the American forces in Iraq, but with the grave mistakes they’ve made in the past, we can’t count on their rationality. “....

===============================

They expect to reform the [Shiite] army when they admit it has been infiltrated beyond control? 

The criticism of the military is not warranted, they have to follow a bad policy.  I don't understand the point about "It's simple math"

Maybe someone can explain that to me

Thankful for the feedback Charles. Wish I could be there too but may have to be in Cincinnati that weekend.

In a setback for supporters of legalizing the import of cheaper drugs into the United States, the Senate voted 49-40 on Monday for an amendment to require safety certification of drugs from abroad.

Another roll call of corporate servitude for too many DCDems.......

Iraq War Withdrawal and Exit Plans

I just loved (not) how he told the people of Kansas that they would be taken care of.

If any state deserves to reap the full measure of GOP incompetence and indifference, it's Kansas which has probably never voted for a Democratic president.

Thankful.......????? :( Cinci or MU ?

RFK: Rove And Rove's Brain, 'Should be in jail,' Not In Office
Monday, May 7, 2007

NEW YORK -- Voting rights attorney Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has called for prison time for the new US Attorney for Arkansas, Timothy Griffin and investigation of Griffin's former boss, Karl Rove, chief political advisor to President Bush.

"Timothy Griffin," said Kennedy,"who is the new US attorney in Arkansas, was actually the mastermind behind the voter fraud efforts by the Bush Administration to disenfranchise over a million voters through 'caging' techniques - which are illegal."
[Hear Kennedy on Griffin, Rove and 'caging lists' at www.GregPalast.com]

Cinci - to represent my brother at an event there. But going is iffy, pretty expensive venture for a few minutes. There's a similar event in KY in Sept. - it's gonna have to be one or the other but I'm waiting to hear which they prefer.

Thankful...I'm sorry I'm not there for your visit. Your brother truly touched so many. This is great that you are putting out such effort. I hope it works out.

Thanks Linda :-)

Back briefly ... and also trying plain text in Firefox to see whether urls are clickable.

It looks as though things are heating up with the US Attorneys scandal.

===================
Justice Dept. Allows Immunity Deal for Ex-Gonzales Aide

By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, May 8, 2007; A03

The Justice Department cleared the way yesterday for a limited immunity deal between House investigators and Monica M. Goodling, a former top Justice aide who has refused to answer questions about her role in last year's firing of eight U.S. attorneys.

The move means that Goodling is likely to testify in front of the House Judiciary Committee on a broad range of questions about the firings that she helped coordinate, including the extent of involvement by Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales and the White House, officials said.

Goodling, who resigned last month as Gonzales's senior counselor and White House liaison, has invoked her Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination in refusing to answer questions from House and Senate investigators about the firings. She worked closely with D. Kyle Sampson, Gonzales's former chief of staff, on the dismissals and is also the subject of an internal Justice Department investigation of whether she weighed political affiliation in reviewing hiring decisions for career prosecutors.

"I believe obtaining her testimony will be a critical step in our efforts to get to the truth about the circumstances surrounding the U.S. attorney firings and possible politicization in the department's prosecutorial function," said Rep. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.), chairman of the House Judiciary panel.

[...]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...

Well, the main url does work, but all the embedded ones don't seem to show up in the post anymore.

Ah well ...

No one said posting would be easy Judy, lol. Heat is on and turning up :-)

Extremely Loooooong thread!

Extremely Neeeeeeew Thread

Fell down on my responsibilities ... new thread ... but thanks to Sitka for also announcing!