The Deans of Democracy for America are first.

153.  linda b, video didn't work for me.

154.

FRED from OR
Wed, 05/02/07
2:42 pm

Fred, there is no more good the US can do there. The Iraqi people want us out. The American people want us out. Only Bin Laden wants us to stay because it is a great recruitment tool.

Noone is for a withdrawal process that leaves US troops in danger. That is a false meme from the pro-war right. Please don't repeat it here.

Dems MUST fulfill the task given them by the electorate last November and hold firm on withdrawal deadlines. Anything less should not be rewarded. Go to a rally today

http://pol.moveon.org/event/events/index.html?action_id=82

and write/call/email your Congress critters. Visit their offices in the next week with your friends.

This is a challenge to us......if not us, then who?

========================

Gravel apparently doesn' t care what the Iraqi people think, or how many will die.  Obviously, I don't expect that Biden would deploy any plan without the full consent and cooperation of the Iraqi people

Scott:

Haj Amin al-Husayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the local Arabs rebelled against the British, and attacked the growing Jewish population repeatedly. These sporadic attacks began with the riots in Palestine of 1920 and Jaffa riots (or "Hurani Riots") of 1921. During the 1929 Palestine riots, 67 Jews were killed in Hebron, and the survivors were evacuated by the British

==================

The anger of Arabs against both British and Zionists was not acceptable but understandable - whoever blames it on blatant "anti-semitism" is ignoring the history.  The Arabs (led by "Lawrence of Arabia") were betrayed by the British, as the Balfour agreement of granting traditional Arab territory to the Zionists, was kept secret until the Arabs succeeded in capturing that land from the Ottomans  in the Second World War.  Balfour was decided by the powerful interests of a prominent Zionist banker in Great Britain.

How would you if you were an Arab that risked your life, maybe disabled, and lost comrads in a war for Britain and then was betrayed by Jewish and Brits in some fancy London bureau?

Such a difference in leadership (or what leadership should be)

One walks away from his responsibilities,  does fly overs and stages photo ops.

 (above)

The other jumps in the rough of it, even if technically not his responsibility, behind the scenes.

Lastnight, back in NOLA, he was asked,

"Question 4 was hard to hear (no microphone), but the person seemed to be asking about what could be done to return New Orleans' recyling programs. Generally a horrible question, but Al gave a homerun answer. He basically turned the question into "what should we do about New Orleans?" He started by pointing out how symbolic New Orleans has become on multiple levels - harbinger of the coming climate crisis, evidence of government ineptitude, symbol of despair, etc. He talked about how he would like to see New Orleans remain a symbol, but evolve into a symbol of hope and what we can accomplish when we put American ingenuity and will to work. He would make New Orleans into a model "green city" with all the bells, whistles, and protections befitting a coastal city in need of serious investment. It was really quite inspirational."

Fred, there is no more good the US can do there. The Iraqi people want us out.

--------------

I know that is the bumper-sticker  motto, but does not tell the entire truth.  Yes, they would like us out someday, but as a reporter on the ground in Bagdhad reported last night on Charlie Rose, "when asked if they want us out now, those poll numbers drop way down"

Most people in Iraq are scared to death to walk the streets.  If we were to leave immediately, most Iraqis fear an ethnic cleansing of ten times the deaths now - or more.

Any true liberal could not pretend to be blind to that fact.  It would be a political disaster for Democrats as well.

Indy Steve
Wed, 05/02/07
3:20 pm


Only Bin Laden wants us to stay because it is a great recruitment tool.
--------
???
Have you heard it from him?

Or you've heard it from primarily Democratic "political analysts" here?
Correct! That are THEY who telling that stuff to you wherever possible! Ask yourself why?

CORRECTRION:  6.  "....land from the Ottomans  in the Second World War. "

SHOULD BE FIRST WORLD WAR

It sound like the dems actually believe putz when he says he wants out of the war as badly as they.  More lies.  He wants to stay forever. 

Iraq has no interest in meetings deadlines of any kind and that was stated clearly today. 

Rescind the war powers act; close the purse except for withdrawal; impeach, indict, arrest, shut down the gov't...they act powerless but they're not.

Keep sending bills he'll veto.  If they don't, we're toast.   If they send a bill with *suggestions* it's all over.

Let's keep up the pressure, folks. 

There's hope. 

Los Angeles police chief William Bratton on Wednesday promised an investigation into clashes that marred immigration protests, suggesting there had been "inappropriate" behavior by officers.  Bratton also hinted that after watching footage of the incident police may have over-reacted http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070502180628.mb3yv698&show_article=1

Noone is for a withdrawal process that leaves US troops in danger. That is a false meme from the pro-war right. Please don't repeat it here.

--------------------

Who the hell is Noone? and what does he have to do with my point?

I don't listen to Neocon or the Right.  I read / listen to unbiased journalist reporting.

former
Wed, 05/02/07
3:33 pm

Al Qaeda was overjoyed when the US invaded Iraq, are you kidding? It has been a GREAT tool for them to recruit new converts. We also eliminated an enemy of theirs (and of Iran, BTW).

The killing continues WHILE we are in Iraq....the death surge is just another opportunity to target US soldiers who will now be sitting ducks in the neighborhood.

Any withdrawal plan takes at least 6-9 months which is plenty of time to get out safely. Don't buy into the Conservative talking points, Fred.

I am not saying it is what Democratic leader want to do but, 

If we leave the country in the present state, most analyst in journalism predict what the local people refer to as the "long war"  Shiites supported by Iran against the Sunnis Supported by Saudi money and arms - a fight to the finish.

BUSH GAVE US THE FINGER YESTERDAY, LET'S GIVE IT BACK TO HIM, DOUBLE.

Words for the Democratic Congress to live by:

The ink on the President's veto is barely dry, and already, a lot of Washington insiders - including some Democrats -- are saying Congress should just give in to the President. Never mind how hard people have pushed to bring Congress to this point, when we are finally standing up to the President's disastrous Iraq policy -- they want to give up on the binding language in the bill requiring the President to begin redeploying troops from Iraq. But that's just letting the President have his way all over again. That's the kind of thinking that got us into this war in the first place, and it's not going to cut it anymore.

We can't keep giving in to this Administration on Iraq. Every time the Administration gets its way, it means that our troops will remain stuck in the middle of Iraq's civil war, and our national security will continue to be undermined. With so many Americans demanding that our involvement in this war come to an end, backing down is not the answer. No one else should die in Iraq to give political comfort to dealmakers in Washington....

The next step to ending the war isn't to give in, but to step up the pressure on the President. I'm pleased to be working with Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid on a bill to end our open-ended military commitment in Iraq. Now that the President has rejected the will of the American people with this veto, our bill, or some other proposal to end funding for a failed policy, should be the next step to end the war.

Feingold is absolutely correct. The Democratic Congress must hang tough, particularly to the deadline set in Feingold-Reid--the deadline recommended by the Iraq Study Group--for a withdrawal of troops by March 31, 2008. Bush is holding all of America, but most particularly the troops, hostage to his whim, to his failure. Congress cannot let him have his way.

• ::

Fred wrote "Who the hell is Noone? and what does he have to do with my point?"

I think he's a distant relative of Someone.

LINDA,  GO TO  http://www.rosie.com/

SCROLL DOWN ON LEFT TO ROSIE VIDEO. THAT'S IS. MAKE U CRY.

I think he's a distant relative of Someone

-------------

LOL I just realized that after I hit the Submit - thanks for the comic relief

Strong Iraq War Remarks of John Edwards at California Democratic Party Convention

By Frank D. Russo

Presidential candidate John Edwards spoke to the California Democratic Convention in San Diego yesterday starting and ending with strong words about what is probably the single most important issues to our state's primary voters--the war in Iraq. His 23 minutes speech was interrupted by applause on a number of occasions, especially when he talked about the war.

Here is what he had to say about Iraq:

Opening Words of Speech

I want to start by just saying a word about what's at stake in this election, and say a word about our party because I have such a strong belief of what the Democratic Party is supposed to represent.

You know, we are past the time for cautious, poll driven politics. It is time for us to lead again. It is time for us to lead bravely, boldly, to take America where it needs to go. It is time for the rest of the world to see our better angels. It is time for the rest of the world to see an America that is compassionate and understands its responsibility to humanity.

I want to say something first about the bleeding sore that is Iraq. A lot of you know this, I want to be very direct about it. I voted for this war and I was wrong to vote for this war. I should have never voted for this war. And I want you to know that I am speaking out with every fiber of my being to get America out of Iraq. We need to be leaving Iraq, and we ought to start today, not two months from now, not three months from now. We ought to start pulling our troops out of Iraq today, and I want to say a just a word about what's happening right now, because we are in a historic moment.

The Congress, the Democratically led Congress--and by the way elections have consequences, don’t they? Our victory in 2006 means something. And our leaders in the Congress have submitted a bill to the President under their funding authority that establishes a time table for a withdrawal from Iraq. The President of the United States has said he intends to veto that bill.

Here's the truth, if the President of the United States vetoes that bill, it is George Bush that is not supporting the troops, not the Congress. And we need the Congress to stand firm and strong. If the President vetoes this bill, they should send him back another bill with a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq. If he vetoes that, they should send him another one back with a timetable for withdrawal. They should not back down from this President and let him continue from this. We have to show strength and courage. This is about life and death, this is about war, and we have to be strong. But as we're leaving Iraq its also critical that we recognize that we have to change what is happening in the world.

The world has to see us as a force for good again. Right now, they think we're a bully, they think we're selfish, They don't look up to us and respect the United States of America--they're not interested in following America. That has to change.

Here's what I think needs to happen. The next President of the United States has to travel the world and speak to the world.--as great American Presidents have in the past. And the message needs to be, and I'. not the first to say it, America is not just a place, America is an idea. And that idea is equality and diversity. It is who we are as a nation. The world needs to hear that …

The world believes we are at war with the Muslim world. That has to change.

Closing Words of Speech

If you don't remember anything else I said to you today, there's one last thing I want to say to you. The fact that you are here and that you are this involved and this engaged, demonstrates your commitment to the country. But I think every one of us have to ask ourselves, what are you willing to do? How much are you willing to do? How much do you love America?

If you look at the big changes that have happened in this country--the civil rights movement that began on college campuses in America, speaking out against the war in Vietnam, bringing down this apartheid regime in South Africa.

This movement to end the war in Iraq, the great movements that have happened in America, they didn't start in Washington, D.C., they didn't start in the Oval Office, they started right here with people of conviction, and courage, and passion, who would stand up for what you believe in, and what you knew is right, we need you again. We need all of you-- to speak out, to speak up, and to build the kind of America, moral and just that all of us believe in.

http://www.californiaprogressreport.com/...

Poll

Was Bush correct to Veto the War Bill

Yes,

No

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/05/02/congress.iraq.ap/index.html

14.

Indy Steve
Wed, 05/02/07
3:42 pm


Al Qaeda was overjoyed when the US invaded Iraq, are you kidding? It has been a GREAT tool for them to recruit new converts. We also eliminated an enemy of theirs (and of Iran, BTW).
-----------
Yes, Bush&Co. (NOT "we") did what Al Qaeda expected almost precisely. (They were looking for a fight and Bush&Co. gave it to them).
Yes, Iraq war is a great tool of theirs, that's also true.
But Al Qaeda never said it wants us to stay in Iraq. Quite the opposite is true, they want us (and drive us!) OUT. Correct?
So, I can't see contradictions here (on their part), they do (did) what they want (wanted).


The killing continues WHILE we are in Iraq....the death surge is just another opportunity to target US soldiers who will now be sitting ducks in the neighborhood.
-----------
Therefore why NOT to get out?



Any withdrawal plan takes at least 6-9 months which is plenty of time to get out safely.
-----------
Agree!



Don't buy into the Conservative talking points, Fred.
-----------
???
Sorry, that's what I don't understand.

If we start leaving Iraq tomorrow -- it would take 'months' to get everything situated and remove our troops from the hot zones.  Turn over our billion dollar camps, all 14 of them, to the Iraqi's. That money is there for relocating our troops.    If we leave:

The U.S. set up government will immedately fall.  Maliki and the fake government don't want us to leave.  They'd be dust. Maliki has his own private government behind the scenes, which means to take over the country for Shi'ites.

Sadr - has no particular grudge against the Sunni's.  Badr doesn't either.  These two forces would take over as military and police.  At probable worst, they might 'escort' questionable Sunni's to a Sunni area.  But in Baghdad, one third of the people are inter-married.   They'll work it out.

Saudi Arabia would immediately send mass money, weapons and probably 'men', although they would be volunteers - like they volunteered to help Bin Laden fight Russia in Afghanistan.  They would protect the Sunni.  The Saudi's are Sunni and have promised to do this.   

Iran would most probably tell the Shi'ites to - cease and desist, send money, weapons and construction people to repair the infrastructure.  Iran doesn't need the chaos. 

Within weeks the BORDERS would be drawn by all Iraqi's involved. 

We won the Iraq War three years ago!

The President wants an Iraq Occupation for Oil.

Do not fund the Oil Occupation.  Bring the Troops Home, Now!

 A few good Senators can stop this Occupation.

Support Senator Feingold!

Sometimes it’s good to ‘know thine enemy”.  Bin Laden has said that ‘we’ are not his enemy, but we are getting in his way.  They don't have to come here.

Bin Laden:  "All that we have to do is to send two mujahedin to the furthest point East to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al-Qaeda, in order to make the Generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic, and political losses without their achieving for it anything of note other than some benefits for their private companies

.

"This is in addition to our having experience in using guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers, as we, alongside the mujahedin, bled Russia for ten years, until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat... So we are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy."

Susan Rowe quoted from Frank Russo's article "Strong Iraq War Remarks of John Edwards at California Democratic Party Convention."

To John Edwards, there's no time like the present to oppose the Iraq War.

linda b, thank you me dear (oops, copying Reed :D)

It apparently can only be viewed in IE, I went in there and am STILL

watching it.  :) 

Gravel apparently doesn' t care what the Iraqi people think, or how many will die.

Apparently Gravel does care what the Iraqi people think since he agrees with them.

As for how many will die, all anyone can say for certain is how many have died  (and extrapolate that into the future) under Bush's occupation.  

Anyone saying that we have to stay to avoid chaos is arrogant and hubristic.

 There is chaos in Iraq now, mainly because of our presence. And sure, it will get worse for a while when we leave, but at least Iraqis will be in charge of their own destiny.

Foreign fighters, despite WH and Pentagon BS, are only a tiny fraction of the insurgency, and they're primarily engaged in trying to kill our guys

Was President Bush right to veto a war-spending bill that contained a deadline for the pullout of U.S. troops from Iraq? Yes   37% 44032 votes No   63% 74773 votes Total: 118805 votes

Sitka, I loved that piece when Biden wanted to be included with the top tier of candidates that wouldn't take any action including nukes off the table when Gravel was talking about that and Biden raised his hand for inclusion.  His response, "oh sure Joe, I'll include you too, after all you have an arrogance and think ....."

http://tinyurl.com/23gusd 

He has this on his website, too. 

That was 37% yes, 63% no

To John Edwards, there's no time like the present to oppose the Iraq War.

While ginning up a new one against Iran.

sorry, that was,

"You have an arrogance, you want to tell the Iraqi's how 

to run their country.  We should just get out" 

That was 37% yes, 63% no 

At least he can claim that it's better than his job approval numbers. 

If we start leaving Iraq tomorrow --

----------------------

You probably have it better than most on this blog...Voters voted for Democrats for a change in Iraq, and sensible end to the occupation - they did not vote for a "cut and run," and least the  majority of did not.

sorry, that was,

"You have an arrogance, you want to tell the Iraqi's how 

to run their country.  We should just get out"

---------------------

You miss the point (or maybe did not even look for it)

We had the most arrogance going in there in the first place - but having destroy their security and infrastructure we are now obliged to exit with as much caution and preparation as possible  and that would include ongoing discussion and polling not  blind top-down decision making

they did not vote for a "cut and run," and least the  majority of did not.

Bush said Democrats were for cut and run and the electorate voted them into power.

So, apparently, Bush and you are wrong. Americans DO want to cut and run -- i.e. get the hell out now where we never should have been in the first place. 

support the reid feingold bill. out of iraq now.

now

John Edwards was just on Blister's Situation Room saying Democrats should have the courage to stand up against the president on the "war" funding bill.

I want to ask John why he didn't have this courage when he was voting FOR the war knowing that it was based on a pack of lies.

What a guy!

but having destroy their security and infrastructure we are now obliged to exit with as much caution and preparation as possible

Prepare for the next ten years and the situation in Iraq will be worse than it is today.

The china shop can never be put back in order so long as the bull who wrecked it is still inside. 

Edwards has never impressed me.

send bush to iraq with no body armor. maybe just his flight suit and cod piece.

that would be a great visual.

let's see who cuts and runs.

Gravel apparently doesn' t care what the Iraqi people think, or how many will die.

Prepare for the next ten years and the situation in Iraq will be worse than it is today.

 ===================

Introducing hyperbole and false innuendo is your stock and trade, isnt it, Sitka?

send bush to iraq

He can hide behind Fred. 

Who knew?

Introducing hyperbole and false innuendo is your stock and trade, isnt it, Sitka?

Disseminating NeoCon talking points is yours, Freddie. 

The china shop can never be put back in order so long as the bull who wrecked it is still inside.

 -------------

the only bull is the one coming out of your mouth

It took us four years to get into this mess, it will take longer than four weeks to get out. De-funding the war will lead to hasty withdrawl and more nedless loss of our servicemen and women.  Even if Dems defund the war Putz will move money around to keep them there as long as possible, at their own peril. I say 3 month extension, then time lines again, let him veto it again. Rethugs are starting to cave, they see the writing on the wall, but de-funding the war plays right into the rethugs hands.

Then they blame dems for losing the war and causing undue deaths from a hasty withdrawl.

~D

Disseminating NeoCon talking points is yours,

------------------

mindless bumper-sticker brain you have, Sitka

send bush to iraq

He can hide behind Fred. 

 funny, but is that bush or fred in the pix?

smackdown in session.

Sitka you belong to the Whacko Left - and to a Whacko Leftist, anyone who does not agree with them is a Neocon

linda b

----------------

insults and demeaning are your stock and trade -I thought you vowed not to respond to my posts, linda b good?

Can't stand not to show your ignorance, can you?

Sitka you belong to the Whacko Left

But I'm not the one who hides under you bed at night. 

I think everyone around here agrees that you're just whacko -- one day to the right....one day to the left...and on another to the vacuous center. 

38.

FRED from OR


Thats almost like the argument our light ones are making that "I was opposed to us going in, but being we're there...."


Come on. How long are they going to be staying on THEIR SAME STAY THE COURSE? We're on year 5 with that same spineless rhetoric coming out of these who claim they were opposed to it, but... Staying there has proven to be wrong.

Helping Iraq get fixed from the damage we caused does not mean staying an occupation in another ones country especially when they don't want you there.

We can help rebuild without having our friggin forces there. Besides, the longer we are there, the more damage and cost to repair that country. Any other rhetoric is just another means of how they can keep us there longer. And then the next answer should be, and why? Then you have the truthful answer. IT IS WAY PASSED THE TIME FOR US TO BE OUT OF IRAQ.

BESIDES EVERYTHING ELSE, LIFE IS SUPPOSED TO TRUMP ALL ELSE.
How many deaths of Iraqi's? Unforgivable.

It took us four years to get into this mess, it will take longer than four weeks to get out. De-funding the war will lead to hasty withdrawl and more nedless loss of our servicemen and women.

====================

This was a special request for war funds in addition to the general annual budgeting of the war funding.  It is really not "defunding" the war but refusing to increase what was requested  in the annual funding.

AND NOBODY EVER EVEN MENTIONS THE BOMBING RUNS!!

Thats almost like the argument our light ones are making that "I was opposed to us going in, but being we're there...."


Come on. How long are they going to be staying on THEIR SAME STAY THE COURSE?

===========================

It is not "almost like" anything except maybe in a vague rhetorical sense.    I never used the term "stay the course"

I am just asking the questions of what will happen to the Iraqis lives and to the Democratic party's image, if we do just leave now, blindly, and the country decends into a civil war, bloodbath, and ethnic-cleansing that makes today look like a day at the beach?????

NOBODY HERE WANTS TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

They would rather  indulge in mindless parroting and cheap shot innuendoes that have nothing to do with the question

61. Monica, isn't it disgusting. The reason Bush keeps calling it war is because he keeps bombing the heck, raids, attacking, Holding people without charges. He still has the Iranians he captured from the Consulate that he gave orders to seize while giving the the State of the Union Speach.

Well Fred, rest assured, there is no "just leaving now, blindly". The counry is in a Civil War and we are creating it. How many more years do you need to see that?

On what facts or evidence do people rely to determine whether an immediate or a phased military withdrawal will result in the loss of more or less human lives, or in a better outcome for the people of Iraq?  What is driving the determination of the best timetable for a withdrawal?  I don't personally profess to having any background or acumen in military strategy.  I just wonder what the calculus is that underpins these opinions. 

In a situation where the social order has been atomized and the top blown off of ancient sectarian animosity that had been reigned in to a significant extent under the former regime, you can't automatically assume that immediately withdrawing a large military force will result in a peaceful transition to post occupation. 

fred, Putz has mainly funded this escapade in Iraq through suplemental bills not in the main defense spending bills.

~D

How many supplements did Pelosi say we gave putz?  5? 

At the very least, the dems should keep sending bills with timetables every month.  And fund the war month by month....at the very least!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Paygo the supplemental by rescinding the tax cuts.  Phil's idea is fantasic and would leave putz sucking his thumb.  Why isn't anyone talking about this?

I'm calling every day now.   

Andrew Cooper

--------------------

thanks for that clarification - but I heard one Democrat say on the news something like "if the president included all the war funding in the general budget we wouldn't need to do this..."

What is that all about?  do you know?

Well Fred, rest assured, there is no "just leaving now, blindly". The counry is in a Civil War and we are creating it. How many more years do you need to see that?

--------------

Well you say "years" but I for one, never implied or stated a time frame, because that is not the point.  The point being not "when" but "how?" we leave, and "what do we need do to prepare for that properly?"

you can't automatically assume that immediately withdrawing a large military force will result in a peaceful transition to post occupation.

I'm inder no illusion that the different factions in Iraq will join hands and sing kumbaya when we cut and run.  But Bush's occuption will never bring it about either.

There's no doubt that we broke Iraq -- but the past five years have shown that we'll never fix it.  We've poured 3300 dead,  25,000 wounded, and $500B into Iraq. We've paid our dues.

It's time to admit our initial wrong, subsequent failure, and do no more harm than it takes to leave those poor people to whatever fate they can manage. 

Paygo the supplemental by rescinding the tax cuts.  Phil's idea is fantasic

==================

sounds like good creative thinking to me - waytogo Phil

"what do we need do to prepare for that properly?"

Apparently, get a different president.

The Justice dept. is expanding Investigations regarding Monica Goodling and politcal appointments.               Impeach...      or   go directly to jail, do not collect $200.                        Bring the troops home NOW.

68   Putz keeps the war funding outside the Fed Budget to make the deficit look smaller.

67 Yes paygo suplementals by the quter though I think, next time put troop re-deployment language in again.

~D

oops, typo. Fund by the quarter, every 3 months. Give him 32 billion and recind top 10 percent taxe cuts to fund it, re-visit issue in august and get rethugs on record again.

~D

Sitka wrote: 

"Bush's occuption will never bring [ ] about [a peaceful transition in Iraq] either.

" . . . .

"It's time to admit our initial wrong, subsequent failure, and do no more harm than it takes to leave those poor people to whatever fate they can manage."

Bush's occupation assuredly won't bring peace to Iraq, and the sooner Americans can vacate the country, the better.  But I'm not suggesting that the occupation is going to succeed as planned, only that a degree of security in the region, as opposed to what essentially would amount to anarchy in our absence, may help lead to the necessary political solution.  Unless you're aware of some evidence to the contrary, a strategy consisting of leaving the people of Iraq to whatever fate awaits them after our departure sounds a little more benign in theory than I suspect it would turn out to be in practice.

Tying Iraq funding to Bush's tax scam would put him in a embarrassing  situation. The trouble is,  DLCers may not go along with it

The paygo solution to supplemental funding is a proposal that has really caught on here.  I'm surprised (or maybe not) that I haven't seen it in any proposed bill or discussed by an elected representative.  We seem to be talking to ourselves.

Unless you're aware of some evidence to the contrary, a strategy consisting of leaving the people of Iraq to whatever fate awaits them after our departure sounds a little more benign in theory than I suspect it would turn out to be in practice.

I said nothing about a benign fate for the people of Iraq. I expect Iraqis to continue suffering for a long time. I also expect the cancer to spread to other countries. But US troops in Iraq, and indeed in the region, are the cause of the problem and exacerbate it rather than contain it. Getting out can only do less harm than staying.

Back again for a quick one...
Fred,
Since we can do nothing to help the folks while we are there, then we should leave.
They will fight their fight regardless of our actions. We have no ability to be positive change agents.

But there is no way we can get up in the morning, turn off the lights and come home. It is logistically impossible.

The Dem proposal has a 60 day exit planning time and then start a withdrawel. Maybe from the Kurdistan area first as they are the most friendly.
VN Note: We did the same thing to the Montgyards (sp) in the highlands. They fought like hell for us..we left..they died.

But there must be dialog with the Iraqis and the neighbors to get an exit process started. Who is going to do what to whom when and how. No one in Iraq will support us as we are leaving. If they get friendly... we leave .. they die (See VN Note).

What we should be talking with the Iraq and neighbors about is what will they do when we leave.
State we do not want the oil.
We don't want the bases.
Once the killing stops we will pay to rebuild.

As had been said many times, there is going to be a huge bucket of crap either way.

Or as I always say...what is the least negative impact to the children?

by for now...

The Justice dept. is expanding Investigations regarding Monica

===========

just what this country needs, another Monica to obscure the first Monica LOL

I would think we should at least be discussing some kind of multinational security force, perhaps under the auspices of the U.N., to be a presence during the transition after the departure of U.S. forces, if nothing else. 

Sitka wrote "Getting out can only do less harm than staying."

I acknowledge this is your position.  My specific question was what supports it.

dog soldier

---------------

doesn't sound like cut 'n run to me, but definitely "cut the bullshit" - we may need to wait for the next prez to do it right. - I  think the Congress knows that, but they love to squeeze the shrub's nuts.

No more supplementals. No accountability. Gee what happened to the last year compromise about reports? Nope, didn't happen.

It is long past time to end this occupation. The best way to ensure it is to PLAN for redeployment. That also means controling spending for such endeavor. That means, you plan to stop funding for any occupation.

Stop Funding.

Support Feingold/Reid Bill. There is funding calculated in to get the redeployment done. No more, no extending. Then you'll see who is serious about ending the occupation.

Did you all hear? Just reported on AAR by Rachel Maddow, the Army threatend soldier with court martial if they didn't stop blogging two weeks ago.

I acknowledge this is your position.  My specific question was what supports it.

What supports getting out is that being there has been a failure. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

3355

http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/jfk_was_jfk_plot_buried_with_hunt.htm

Tom Bearse

=============

[ I think I hear a]      "Dah....".

... The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

==============

Nobody here, not Tom nor I, have ever suggested "stay the course" - nor even close to that

Indy SteveWed, 05/02/07 3:20 pm

Only Bin Laden wants us to stay because it is a great recruitment tool.

Have you heard it from him? 

Just this poster he put out back in 2002.....

Nobody here, not Tom nor I, have ever suggested "stay the course" - nor even close to that

Any fool can ask questions and never put forward an answer.

Well, since it looks lie our government is going to play along with al Qaeda, I guess it will self-destruct in about five to ten more years. Are we going to try to put Humpty Dumpty together again when he falls, or will we build something better, that cannot be taken over by a cabal of proto-fascists?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/real-democ...

"....acceptable level of violence..."

GWB, today

Is that like acceptable level of torture..of lying..of stealing...of snooping...etc.  

IMPEACH/ INDICT this idiot and his minions. 

We are the most violent of all industrialized countries?  Is this acceptable?

Are we going to try to put Humpty Dumpty together again

That's what Bush's soldiers and men are trying to do in Afghanistan and Iraq. According to the nursery rhyme there really isn't much point in it.

Bush: "Acceptable level of violence....." Even in America!

ROSE: And is there an acceptable level of violence?

BUSH: Well, that’s the question to the Iraqi people. That’s a fascinating question. I mean, there is an acceptable level of violence in certain societies around the world. And the question is, you know, what is that level? That’s where the experts come in. You know, you and I can’t determine that sitting here in New York, but we can ask people’s advice upon it. David Petraeus is — would have an opinion on that. Ryan Crocker, our ambassador in Iraq. That’s a very interesting way of putting the question. Because all — there is an acceptable level of violence in all societies. Even our own.

Video 

Nobody here, not Tom nor I, have ever suggested "stay the course" - nor even close to that

Any fool can ask questions and never put forward an answer.

====================

A quick wit is often accompanied by an empty head

                                               - Benjamin Franklin

I wonder if Bush thinks the 32 people who were murdered at VA Tec represent an "acceptable level of violence?" Or just the thousands of Iraqis murdered every month under his nose.

Will the CM have the temerity to ask? 

A quick wit is often accompanied by an empty head

From what I've read, Old Ben was pretty quick witted himself. 

We are the most violent of all industrialized countries?  Is this acceptable? 

According to Bush, apparently.

Sitka, no according to Bush, those students, in class, were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. (shhh, we no he really didn't study when he went to school)

And, don't forget, according to Laura, don't you mind those pictures of toddler sons crying at their fathers funeral, or that letter I posted from the pregnant wife and marine herself, at the loss of her husband over this sensless war. Laura said NO ONE suffers more than she or W.

Out Now!

  Obviously, I don't expect that Biden would deploy any plan without the full consent and cooperation of the Iraqi people

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fred

that line would be hillariously funny if the subject wasn't so deadly serious

you are kidding right?

Iran would love it, Turkey might not be so happy with a Kurdistan on its border

and the Sunnis would gain what?

but the concept of a President Biden waving a magic wand and getting cooperation and consent  for deploying his plan doesn't fit my reality model

Oh, I knew it...and it will only worsen.

FDA drops the other shoe: Millions ate contaminated chicken
by Deep Harm [Subscribe]
Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:12:01 PM PDT

Those who have have been expecting FDA to one day admit that the human food supply has been widely contaminated with industrial melamine or its derivatives have not been disappointed. Tuesday, the FDA dropped the other shoe, reporting that millions of consumers have eaten chickens fed feed contaminated with industrial melamine that has killed thousands of pets. CNN reports:

...an investigation of chicken farms in Indiana found that 38 of the facilities had given contaminated feed to poultry raised for human consumption, and that 2.5 million to 3 million people ate them.
[...]
In a teleconference with reporters, an official with the Food and Drug Administration said no recall has been issued because "the likelihood of illness after eating chicken fed the contaminated product is very low."

Federal authorities admit that chickens in other states also were fed contaminated feed; but, these figures do not include estimates for pork contamination, which FDA and USDA previously reported that hogs were fed melamine-contaminated pet food. And, the news gets worse.
Deep Harm's diary :: ::

CNN adds:

Investigators suspect that melamine, in combination with a rice protein additive imported from China and found to contain cyanuric acid, may cause crystals to form in the kidneys, shutting them down
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/5/2/1...

103. It's Bush that's in the wrong place for any time, IMO. And we're all suffering immensely.

105. Phil: "Iran would love it"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Actually, I have heard that Iran also has a large Kurdish population, and also does not want to see an independent Kurdistan.

105.

Phil Specht


LOL

______

I still remember sitting on a plane from SEA Sep 02 and chit chatting with the gentleman next to me. Him talking about Bush wanting to invade Iraq. Me saying he has no right and him telling me how the Iranians want him to.

Isn't it great that Bush always is doing what our enemies (al Quaeda ) or supposed enemies (Iran) want.

What a great foreeign policy.

106. Go Vegan! Now and for Life!

I have a picture in my head of the portrait of Napolean with his hand sideways in his coat with the face cut out and an amazing line of past and present Presidential candidates waiting to have their picture taken with them in the portrait.

Why settle for "leader of the free world" when you can order old societies to your ideals of empire?

Laura said NO ONE suffers more than she or W.

They suffered SOOOO much in 2001......

"But all in all, it's been a fabulous year for Laura and me." — George Bush, Washington D.C., Dec. 20, 2001

Source: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011221-2.html 

When I first introduced legislation with Russ Feingold to set a deadline to end the open-ended policy of massive military presence in Iraq and bring our heroes home, I knew it would take a lot of work to get us to that point. And, as I've said to all of you before, we've made tremendous progress. Thanks to all of your work, we have a Democratic Congress that has passed legislation to challenge President Bush's failed policy in Iraq and put us on a new course.

But the Republicans are putting up a roadblock to our efforts, succumbing to White House pressure to back the President on this. And the President vetoed our efforts.

It's time for that to change. It's time to put the pressure on these Roadblock Republicans.

The Republicans are already showing signs of cracking. Many are running away from this President's disastrous policy. But that's not enough; we need to splinter the GOP on this one. To do that, we need to speak to them in a voice loud enough that they can't help but hear it, and we need to speak in the language any politician understands: grassroots pressure.

So we're launching a unique campaign to pressure the critical points in the GOP caucus. We are targeting a few key Senators for this message: Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, and Senators Sununu, Collins, and Coleman. The last three are already top races for 2008, and Senator McConnell is the bulwark of the GOP leadership on this.

So go here to contribute to a fund run by our friends at ActBlue that will go to the eventual Democratic nominee in those states and then write an email message to those Senators explaining why you did this.

This is an extraordinary campaign; to my knowledge, nothing quite like this has ever been done. But this money can make all the difference in each of these races, and these Senators will know it. Senator McConnell is secure in his belief that no one will be able to raise the money to challenge him. We can show that he's wrong. The other Senators are already top targets in 2008, but they hope the power of incumbency and fundraising can save them. We can show them that the power of Washington won't stand against the power of the people.

We can raise the stakes for them and make the pressure they feel from the people greater than the pressure they feel from the White House. And when that happens, they just might help tell this President that his policy is a disaster and we must change course.

Let's clear the way for a new direction in Iraq -- let's insist on a policy that lives up to the sacrifice of our incredible troops.

Sincerely,

John Kerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

this should be combined with a 60 day continuing resolution rescinding the tax cut as paygo

squeeze them where they feel the pain

Fred

that line would be hillariously funny if the subject wasn't so deadly serious

....but the concept of a President Biden waving a magic wand and getting cooperation and consent  for deploying his plan doesn't fit my reality model

===========================

I don't understand your point.  I don't see Biden as a person who speaks as articulately and sensible as Biden, going in and slicing up the country like a dictator.   I cannot see how he could arrange a partitioning of the country without the consent and cooperation of the citizenry -

Biden is not Bush.

do you honestly think that he thinks he can do it "top down," without asking any Iraqis what they would want?

If so, which candidate do you think could do it better?

105.
Phil Specht
Wed, 05/02/07
7:24 pm

Biden happens to be the only candidate that talks in specific terms about the proposal and logistics of how were might proceed in Iraq besides those who simple repeat the "get out now" mantra - with no details, specific, and not demonstrating any understanding of the problem.

If he is not the only one, what other candidate talks about the details and specifics as much as he does?

I think it would be impossible to do anything to stop the killing there without a direct ongoing dialog with the common people.

Iran and Turkey already have a long border through Kurdistan I'm sure they could figure out a way to extend it a few hundred miles.

The Biden proposal is a backdoor way to guarantee that bases and troops will remain indefinitely.

(as you may have figured out, I am less than enamoured with the Biden proposal, good as it may have been in 2003 with a regional deal protecting the sovereign borders)

the end result will be what the people of the region want. with or without the loss of thousands of more Americans

107 Thankful. Yep!

I was listening to AAR (first time in a while..2 times last week) and a young man called in to mention how Bush declared at the debates that he didn't believe in nation building and he was impressed when he said that. I guess he was trying to give reasons for why he voted for Bush. And Randi said, uh, yea, he lied, so. I just hope people really have learned and are paying attention to how easy it is for these folks to say anything for "politics", vs their actions. Everytime I say I believe so, the other person looks at me and says "nope", "they still believe the crap. They haven't changed". I just wonder how the folks in Connecticut feel after Lieberman lied so easily. Say what the people want to hear and do he wanted anyway. Or did they all know it was a lie and it didn't matter?

Reminder, Senator Gravel will be on Stephen Colbert TONIGHT!!!

The Biden proposal is a backdoor way to guarantee that bases and troops will remain indefinitely.

(as you may have figured out, I am less than enamoured with the Biden proposal, good as it may have been in 2003 with a regional deal protecting the sovereign borders)

--------------

Neither you nor I am qualified to make those judgements, and the fact is that nothing in the future is sure.

Having troops in the region per se, is not the problem, especially if we can assemble a multi-national peace-keeping force.  We have troops all over the world.  The  problem is the violence, the war, and of course the aftermath of total anarchy if we exit completely at present.

Your being for the Biden proposal "three years ago" does not make sense in the context of three years ago.

   No Iraqi was stressed enough at the time to even consider relocating to avoid a post-American-withdrawal ethnic-cleansing.  I believe now most of them would be happy to move, if they were escorted by troops to a safe refuge among their own kind.

Some pundits think Iraqis Sunnis and Shiitesare too well integrated through marriage and association to partition the country, but that is being simplistic. 

If that were such an obstacle they would not have such ethnic tension.  There should be a choice for intermarried people to want to live with one group or the other, or in an integrated district.  Something could be worked out.  I am not really qualified to offer those solutions, but that is the research that is needed for such a plan.

howdy. chiming in on Iraq, I think fuhrbush will start withdrawing troops (already in the planning stages) just as soon as the oil bill is signed by the Iraqis - we see he's already lowering expectations for a 'safe' Iraq via today's speech. once he's taken care of his favorite constituency, the oil barons, he'll focus on who to attack next to keep that perpetual military complex humming along at full speed (his next favorite constituency). the good of our troops and the American public in general is not on his radar screen at all, never has been, never will be (but we KNEW that). once he accomplishes this he will have 'won' the war he is waging - for his best buds.

and need to share this for those near VT - WHOOOOPDEDOOOO!.....

... We know how much you love Ben Cohen (of Ben & Jerry's), our founder and creative visionary. Well, Ben and Greg Palast, a hero of the verified voter movement, will be together in Montpelier, VT this Friday to talk about voting integrity and the work we have left to do to secure our elections. And you are invited.

When: Friday, May 4th at 7:00pm
Where: Unitarian Church of Montpelier, 130 Main Street (at School Street) (map)

Greg was a pioneer journalist who exposed the dirty secrets of electronic voting, and Ben was the creative spark behind TrueMajority's famous "Computer Ate My Vote" campaign -- which helped eliminate paperless voting in states across the country. See them together at Friday's event which is hosted by Vermont voting activist and WGDR's Jim Hogue.

Hope you can make it,

Brian Sant
TrueMajority Online Organizer

Jonathon Turley on Keith is wonderful.  He claims it looks like Leahy is going straight for criminal behavior at the WH and is likely to succeed...re firings.

This is GREAT news!  Just great.    I'm sending kudos to Leahy tomorrow. 

the end result will be what the people of the region want. with or without the loss of thousands of more Americans

----------------

If you mean the "region" the former "Iraq".... 

The people cannot have the political infrastructure to even decide and enact what they want with 100 / people a day dying violently in the streets.  That's like a Virginia Tech incident every day in a country the size of Pennsylvania.

With all due respects, Phil, that sound off-the-cuff.  On what basis do you make such cut-and-dry predictions? The end of violence for Iraqi would mean the end of deaths for Americans too.

Monica and her pigs........

Jo, hey, if they can still go shopping while bombs are being dropped on your house and your family gets shot up at the market, that's still being able to live your life with violence, right?

Putz is no longer fitting, because that's sort of endearing, you know like, "oh, poor thing, he doesn't know". No, this is just plain inhumane and mean. We're going to have to ask seashell and others to srart a campaign to rename him. I got the first one....BARBARIAN!

If we want to get out of Occupation Iraq, we have to replace some Democrats in Congress with Democrats who put America's interest first.  DFA shoyuld be recruiting some candidates to replace democrats that vote  for funding this Occupation.

Rather than debating people who put "foreign interests" above America's interest , we should be debating boycotting Democrats who don't support Reid Feingold Bill.

 No money or volunteers  to  Occupiers.  We don't need to work for Democrats ijust to Occupy Iraq.

What is DFA Policy on supporting Occupyers? 

The noose tightens......

Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy (D-VT) subpoenaed Alberto Gonzales today to turn over all e-mails to or from Karl Rove in connection U.S. attorney scandal. “Not accepting the White House’s explanation that some of the Rove-related e-mails may have been lost, Leahy subpoenaed any in the custody of the Justice Department. Since the subpoena is to the Justice Department and not to the White House, it sidesteps any executive privilege concerns.”

128. Go Leahy!

~ ~ ~

Greetings to all from Paine - we got together for lunch today, yummy Italian.

sea, re: This is GREAT news! Just great. I'm sending kudos to Leahy tomorrow.
----------------

sea, thank you - he will love it! a few weeks ago I wrote Leahy to thank him for his tireless pursuit of the truth. I rec'd a really nice letter from him yesterday (and yes he signed it - I have another autograph of his to compare - on this one his sig spanned the page and included a huge handwritten Thank You) I truly love my senior Senator!! on that thought, I've always gotten thoughtful, intelligent responses from he Bernie and Jim Jeffords. haven't written to Peter Welch yet, but am sure to soon!

he's takin' our country baaaaaccckkk....

118.

Fred, saw your post about Gravel not caring about the Iraq people...what are you talking about? There are certain arguments re: Gravel and the policies he wishes to implement that are poignant...to question his humanitarianism is ridiculous.

Linda, I will try and stay up to watch it. Have a fasting blood sugar appointment tomorrow morn...no coffee...I'd cry in my coffee but I won't have any...waaahhhh! Been busy the last couple of days and need to catch up on the threads...blogs been active lately : )


Sea, great news about Leahy...nice to know some carry something in the sac.

Thankful, no cRuNcHy bread with the Italian meal? lol...I knew we should have stayed in Vt.

the IG is investigating Monica now, too - the noose tightens indeed. and I'm sure they'll be watching him to make sure he does his job.

Me number was off...first should have been 4...118 was next...didn't include the others so wth.

re: Fred, saw your post about Gravel not caring about the Iraq people...what are you talking about?
-------------------

I've come to the conclusion that Fred just likes to throw out bombs with little fact to back them up (except for his ((mostly)) excellent posts on health issues, which he does provide links to, often with good information). he seems to like to get into pissing matches on things like war and politicians and women's rights and Israel.

131.

Reed in VT


Oh, I sympathize with you. But it will be over soon. I have had waaaay too many of those fasting tests than I care to recount and some for 3 days. Soon it will be over. And don't worry, if you can't stay up, something tells me it will be downloaded...or shall I say uploaded to youtube. :)

Good luck.

________________________

Thankful and Paine , bueno, italiano. Un Grappa con dolce?

131. LOL. I left the bread to him.

hi Thankful! hope you are having fun and safe travels. love the cookbook!

ciao for now...

Reed - have you hit 50 and had the colonoscopy yet? fasting bloodsugar is a walk in the park compared to that self-imposed fasting. and the meds really gag you...

Jo, glad you like the cookbook. Yep, having fun and staying safe :-)

New Thread...

Linda...I'm going to try and stay up, I think it'll be worth it.

Jo...yes, I believe you're right about Fred and I try not to engage for that reason. 51 years olds this year and haven't had the (((gasp))) colonoscopy yet.

Thankful...great cookbook! No hard toast recipe though.

olds s/b old
repeating ones self is a sign of ???

140.

Reed in VT

LOL Hubby's scheduled for his this year too. But he knows it's a piece of cake. He's been with me for too many years and has seen me go though many. Several Sigmoidoscopies, Coloscopies, Upper GI's, endoscopies, and more detailed that I won't get in to :) plus blood surgar and Hormone tests. Auhh those are the memories. :)

126. I would suggest pre-simian. gone fer sure now. love y'all.

oops just one more comment and will catch you on the new thread later - Reed, 140: they're not bad at all - the prep is the real pain in the arse, pun intended! if you want to know a good doc I can recommend one at Fletcher Allen.

Nite Jo.

Ugh, Linda, you've been thru the wringer. Only one of those I've been thru is the GI's, no fun especially when you find out you're pregnant at the same time.

Reed, I'm still hoping to do vol. II so you can submit the recipe, and/or others :-)

145. Thankful, Wow....you went thru that while you were pregnant. Oh man. Did that answer some questions...being that you didn't know you were pregnant?

Well, it was one time I saw my father in law bust out laughing when I disclosed the latest test I had at Mayo. He never liked laughing at peoples expense, but the way I delivered it (I know, surprise) and what was done, he couldn't help but laugh. Well, that disturbed him that he was laughing, so he tried to stop and couldn't, which made him laugh the hardest we ever saw.

Some of these tests can be something.

Yeah, didn't know til a couple weeks later - turns out all the tests were for naught. All was a-ok with the kiddo though ;-)

Here we go again.  With the ink barely dry on the Dems funding bill, Nancy and Harry had a "productive meeting with GWB" and now announce their intention to hammer out a compromise based on finding common ground [we have common ground with this evil SOB, I certainly hope not].  Like Lucy and the football.  Haven't we already compromised more than enough, converting deadlines to non-binding suggestions.  When in fact we shouldn't even be talking about far off deadlines but starting the withdrawal almost immediately and defunding combat operations in the very near future.

I've emailed Congresspeople till I'm blue in the face with the message that no real change in this immoral war will happen until Democrats can summon up the guts to begin impeachment.  That not doing so will allow these dangerous madmen to continue their horrific abuses and will send the clear message to the world that America condones what has been going on and lacks the courage to change its course. Further there is no excuse to not impeach. Continued posturing for '08 isn't needed -Dems will gain rather than lose votes as most of America supports impeachment. And it need not be a lengthy process - isn't  the evidence abundant and  perfectly obvious!  And who know, Republicans smart enuf to want to distance themselves from this incompetent evil-doer might even be able to force a Nixon-like resignation.  As for preventing Congress from getting  on with the business of the people, impeachment is not a distraction but a pre-requisite for getting anything of importance accomplished.

Well finally a ray of hope. Two Congressmen signed on today as sponsors of the Kucinich motion to impeach.  Now it's up to the rest of the Wimpocrats to weigh in or forever retain their image of utter spinelessness, and justify the widespread belief that we really have a one-party system.  And what does it say about these Rethuglican lites to brand the only one to really stand up as a "crazy left wing looney"

Disgusted in Santa Fe

14.

dog soldier
Thu, 05/03/07
4:35 pm

Reply to this

FRED from OR
Thu, 05/03/07
4:23 pm

Reply to this

Not quite sure about that...(The indescrimate killing part is true)

http://www.counterpunch.org/halper050320...

If there is one state, Jews are a minority. The ability to import more is iffy

---------------------

don't have time to read the the counterpunch article at present but it looks good. I'm doing child care for two more hours.

All I can say is that Israel cannot have their cake and eat it too. For the last 40 years they have even more to the right (except for 1947 and 1948) and have behaved more and more like their historical tormentors.

They cannot be a true democracy and try to be a biblical theocracy at the same time. And as far as being a majority - even though it irrelevant to a true democracy, they would have no problem attracting Jews from all over the world if the land were peaceful. The weather is great and it rich in history and culture.

Does Israel want to be a great, peaceful and beautiful playground for the world, or a fascist prison camp for non-Jews, and a fortress against the world for the Jews within?